Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Lights on the way
by akay
Today at 09:01 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
Today at 08:53 AM

New Britain
Yesterday at 08:17 AM

Gaza assault
by zeca
November 27, 2024, 07:13 PM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
November 24, 2024, 06:05 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
November 22, 2024, 06:45 AM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
November 20, 2024, 09:02 AM

Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
November 19, 2024, 11:36 PM

Dutch elections
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 10:11 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 08:46 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
November 07, 2024, 09:56 AM

The origins of Judaism
by zeca
November 02, 2024, 12:56 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 1499701 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 126 127 128129 130 ... 370 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3810 - September 07, 2018, 08:18 PM

    You are dodging again, Altara. What about the paleographical arguments do you find unconvincing?


    That they ignore the historical and geographical context.

    Quote
    So long as you continue to avoid giving concrete answers to these questions, and responding to Nehme's paleographical study, we will just go in circles. So if you have a valid reason to object, give it, rather than 'I object'.


    That she ignore the historical and geographical context. It's normal, she's not an historian.

    Quote
    Laila Nehme's formation is entirely French. She did not do her studies in Lebanon and in fact I am not even sure if she even spent much time in Lebenon. She could have grown up in France. But what difference does that make - her educational predegree is entirely French.


    Nope, Arabic is her mother tongue. Arabic is the mother tongue of French people?
    Well, tell them... Afro
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3811 - September 07, 2018, 08:32 PM

    Evolution of Arabic script:

    I see very little evolution. From this Harran and Zebed inscription to the Quran and early islamic graffiti...

    Why can't just someone have decided at a certain moment "this is what the arabic script looks like". Just as Cyrillus and Methodius decided on the alphabet for the Slav people. Of course the "inventors" of the Arab script got inspiration a bit everywhere (including the Nabatean and Syriac script). But it is not as if the Nabatean script writers spontaneously gradually evolved to Arabic. How would that have worked ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3812 - September 07, 2018, 08:48 PM

    Question to Altara and canaaniteshift .....
    And  and Is it not possible that that part of the bible might have been published before the years says 500 AD IN SOME ARABIC SCRIPT/LANGUAGE OF THAT TIME??   well more work


    Nope, (very) improbable, no allusions in the sources, no manuscripts attestations.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3813 - September 07, 2018, 08:53 PM

    Evolution of Arabic script:

    I see very little evolution. From this Harran and Zebed inscription to the Quran and early islamic graffiti...


    Of course.

     
    Quote
    Of course the "inventors" of the Arab script got inspiration a bit everywhere (including the Nabatean and Syriac script). But it is not as if the Nabatean script writers spontaneously gradually evolved to Arabic. How would that have worked ?


    1/ That is possible.
    2/ I know very well the European case (500 to 800, to 1200, etc) (I've studied it...) In this case there was a perforce "internal spontaneously gradually evolution". Because there was only one script.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3814 - September 07, 2018, 09:02 PM

    Altara,

    on 2/ gradual European evolution: I guess certain scribal centers  (monasteries?) started changing some letters or style. This, if practical, was taken over by other centers. But that is not a complete overhaul of the writing system...

    Canaanite,

    Do you have a scenario how Nabatean script might have evolved "spontaneously" and gradually in the Arabic script? I think there is  need of a "cathartic moment" to set this Arabic script in the world. Who would have ïnvented"it? Traders? Administration centers? Monasteries?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3815 - September 07, 2018, 09:15 PM

    First, Altara, saying that Nehme ignores geography doesn't make sense. She is the only one who has studied these texts in any geographic context. 6th c. Arabic inscriptions cluster in the Nabataean realm, especially north Arabia and southern Levant. Zebed is the single outlier.

    Mundi: Please read these articles: Nehme and Macdonald explain clearly how the Nabataean script gradually developed to Arabic and at what point WE modern scholars consider it Arabic.

    Macdonald: Languages, scripts, and the uses of writing among the Nabataeans
    https://www.academia.edu/4587486/Languages_scripts_and_the_uses_of_writing_among_the_Nabataeans

    Nehme: A glimpse of the development of the Nabataean script into Arabic based on old and new epigraphic materialhttps://www.academia.edu/2106858/_A_glimpse_of_the_development_of_the_Nabataean_script_into_Arabic_based_on_old_and_new_epigraphic_material_in_M.C.A._Macdonald_ed_The_development_of_Arabic_as_a_written_language_Supplement_to_the_Proceedings_of_the_Seminar_for_Arabian_Studies_40_._Oxford_47-88


    I don't have an argument for this development but Nehme articulates one very clearly. After the fall of Petra, the use of the Nabataean script/language remained active in the peripheral areas not directly under Roman control. The emergent petty states continued to employ this script and language for their administration/chancelleries. From the 2nd to 5th centuries CE, the gradual changes to the Nabataean script happened resulting in the arabic script, motivated by writing with ink. She in her paper and in an upcoming book on this traces this development, century by century. It is gradual.  Jallad argues that the Nabataean script didn't evolve into Arabic linearly but that since it was used by different courts, without an overarching political structure, teh script developed different orthographies in different places, a disorder not resolved until the emergence of abd al-malik's imperial Arabic. It is in a forth coming paper on his academia page but also in this interview:

    https://15minutehistory.org/2018/05/23/episode-107-the-yazid-inscription/

    The gradual development is document. The geographic location of Northwest Arabia and southern Levant emerges from the distribution of the inscriptions themselves. Altara, there are much more than three Arabic inscriptions today - that geographic distribution is outdated. Gabish?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3816 - September 07, 2018, 09:17 PM

    Finally, Altara, what does Nehme's 'mother tongue' have to do with her formation? she was edcuated in the french system as a french scholar? Why does it matter that she spoke Arabic as a child? And maybe also french since many Lebanese are bilingual. Please explain what relevance her mother tongue has to anything.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3817 - September 07, 2018, 09:34 PM

    Altara,

    on 2/ gradual European evolution: I guess certain scribal centers  (monasteries?) started changing some letters or style. This, if practical, was taken over by other centers. But that is not a complete overhaul of the writing system...



    But Nabatean script to Quranic script is not structurally  " a complete overhaul of the writing system" you still always dealing with consonantal stuff.



    Quote
    Do you have a scenario how Nabatean script might have evolved "spontaneously" and gradually on his own in the Arabic script? I think there is  need of a "cathartic moment" to set this Arabic script in the world. Who would have invented"it? Traders? Administration centers? Monasteries?



    Syriac people at the origin. Monasteries.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3818 - September 07, 2018, 10:40 PM

    First, Altara, saying that Nehme ignores geography doesn't make sense.

    She ignore (forget/set aside) the historical and geographical context. It's normal, she's not an historian.
    Quote
    She is the only one who has studied these texts in any geographic context. 6th c. Arabic inscriptions cluster in the Nabataean realm,

     

    Nabataean realm in the 6th c. Sure. What else? (yawn...)

    Quote
    especially north Arabia and southern Levant. Zebed is the single outlier.

    Zebed is very far from the peninsula. Exceptional proto Quranic script.

    Quote
    I don't have an argument for this development


    Excellent!

    Quote
    but Nehme articulates one very clearly. After the fall of Petra, the use of the Nabataean script/language remained active in the peripheral areas not directly under Roman control.


    The Romans are in Hegra in the 4th c. Dumat place is under more or less ( as far as I know, no Romans, there...)Persian control, meaning Church of the East, meaning Syriac script :
    Quote
    And 2017, Laïla Nehmé published an inscription from Dumat al-Jandal, an oasis in northern Arabia, and it is the first Arabic script inscription from north Arabia. And this text read dhakir al-ilah (ذكر الاله)–so, “may the God,” and this is the name of the Christian God in pre-Islamic Arabic, al-ilah (الاله), “the God,” literally–“be mindful of” and then a personal name, and it was dated 6th century CE.


    Quote
    The emergent petty states continued to employ this script and language for their administration/chancelleries.


    "administration/chancelleries" when exactly?

    Quote
    From the 2nd to 5th centuries CE, the gradual changes to the Nabataean script happened resulting in the arabic script, motivated by writing with ink. She in her paper and in an upcoming book on this traces this development, century by century. It is gradual.  Jallad argues that the Nabataean script didn't evolve into Arabic linearly but that since it was used by different courts, without an overarching political structure, the script developed different orthographies in different places, a disorder not resolved until the emergence of abd al-malik's imperial Arabic.

     

    That's what I suspected... glow,  no sources (different courts, etc.) nothing in fact. These Arabs live on Mars.
    Zebed (512)and Harran (568)  attest of a structure who has been ordered, if not orthography, at least the script. Both are under Christianity.
    Dumat (548/549) = Church of the East
    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/inscriptions/dumah1.html
    For islamic-awareness Script  is :   Nabateo-Arabic script. (following Jallad et al.)
    For me  proto Quranic script whose the content is biblical stories and heavily influenced by Syriac Christianity

    Quote
    It is in a forth coming paper on his academia page but also in this interview:

    https://15minutehistory.org/2018/05/23/episode-107-the-yazid-inscription/


    Off-topic.

    Quote
    The gradual development is document. The geographic location of Northwest Arabia and southern Levant emerges from the distribution of the inscriptions themselves.


    Gradual development alone: how, when, dates? nobody knows. The explication is that you et al. are incapable to explain this evolution/gradual development to reach Zebed, Dumat, Harran. All of these are under Christianity, two under Syriac Church of the East.
    Nor Nehmé and Jallad et al. are historians, all what they say is not scholarship, as they ignore the religious scriptural context present since almost 400 years.
    End of story (at least for me...)




  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3819 - September 08, 2018, 12:12 AM

    Altara - If not Jallad, Nehmé, etc., who do you recommend us to read on this topic? Links.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3820 - September 08, 2018, 01:07 AM

    Dear Altara - Having done some more research, I must say that your argument - relying on the Kirdīr inscription - that non-Christians in the Sasanian empire referred to Christians as nāṣrāyē is not entirely convincing. Here I am not claiming that you are necessarily wrong, but only that your explanation is not as solid as previously thought.

    But please allow me to ask you this: assuming you are indeed wrong, in that nāṣrāyē was a common designation for ordinary Trinitarian Christians, and not the name for a heretical Jewish-Christian sect, would that you make you more open to the Nazorean hypothesis?


     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3821 - September 08, 2018, 06:27 AM

    On Nasraye/ notzrim:

    Isn't that root  commonly use for Christians in the Babylonian Talmud?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3822 - September 08, 2018, 07:26 AM

    Dear Altara - Having done some more research, I must say that your argument - relying on the Kirdīr inscription - that non-Christians in the Sasanian empire referred to Christians as nāṣrāyē


    It is not what I say dear Mahgraye . What I say is that Persians the rulers of Iraq refer to Christians ALSO in certain circumstances as n 'cl'y in the Kirdir inscription identified by scholars to the Syriac  nāṣrāyē meaning that it is another name of them : specific, despising name according to Brelaud et al. It is outlined by Brelaud et al. It is not their common name. I insist on that (heavily). Christians  were not named normally, usually nāṣrāyē but kristyānē by  Persians .
    Quote
    But please allow me to ask you this: assuming you are indeed wrong, in that nāṣrāyē was a common designation for ordinary Trinitarian Christians,

    It is not their common name. I insist on that (heavily). So what you think is not 1/ what Brelaud et al. say, 2/ Not what I say. You have to change this in your mind. It is not the same thing to be referred with one name (like you, me, etc) or two names by hostile rulers people (Persians).

    Quote
    and not the name for a heretical Jewish-Christian sect, would that you make you more open to the Nazorean hypothesis?


    What is (exactly) your Nazorean hypothesis?


     

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3823 - September 08, 2018, 07:32 AM

    Altara - If not Jallad, Nehmé, etc., who do you recommend us to read on this topic? Links.


    I recommend you to read Jallad, Nehmé, et al. What I outlined, is that they put aside, all context :

    Gradual development alone: how, when, dates? nobody knows. The explication is that you et al. are incapable to explain this evolution/gradual development to reach Zebed, Dumat, Harran. All of these are under Christianity, two under Syriac Church of the East.
    Nor Nehmé and Jallad et al. are historians, all what they say is not scholarship, as they ignore the religious scriptural context present since almost 400 years.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3824 - September 08, 2018, 07:48 AM

    On Nasraye/ notzrim:

    Isn't that root  commonly use for Christians in the Babylonian Talmud?


    Not so clear it deals with "Christians", could be yes, could be no.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3825 - September 08, 2018, 10:13 AM

    Hatra. A pre-Islamic Mecca

    https://www.academia.edu/2458093/Hatra._A_pre-Islamic_Mecca
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3826 - September 08, 2018, 12:58 PM


      Cheesy   I love it.,   Where is Pre-Islamic Mecca??   Where are those Qureshi women?? of that time  Cheesy.,    Any one from Amsterdam? is there any PDF file of her paper? interesting thought.. and it is far away from the present citadel of Saud Snakes Sand Land Islam....  and it is even far away from that Petra..
     
    I think one should go back and read that work of German archaeologist Walter Andrae. but all of his work is in "German"
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3827 - September 08, 2018, 01:18 PM

    Now, that does makes a difference. However, in the three inscriptions set up by Kirdīr, which is the bedrock of your argument, ‘Nazoreans’ and  ‘Christians’ are mentioned as two separate communities, at least apparently so. Kirdīr speaks of not only two religious groups, but seven. Of these seven religious groups, six are linguistically transparent (no need to go through them here, but klstyd’n [kristiyān] is one of them). Remaining is (n)’s(l’)[y] and n’ṣl’y, which are simply two ways of representing the Aramaic nāṣrāy- in the Persian tongue. As the inscription(s) presents the religious denominations in pairs (this occurs after the solitary mention of the Jews at the very beginning), one can only read nāsrāy and kristiyān, as they both are juxtaposed together, as two different kinds of Christians, and not two different ways of referring to catholic (for lack of a better term) Christians, were the former designation was simply more despised by Christians.

    That the Syriac nāṣrāyā can also mean ‘Christian’ in the ordinary sense of the word, is also not very convincing.

    It does not seem to me that Persians on some occasions referred to catholic Christians by the derogatory term nāṣrāyē is  entirely convincing, at least not at the moment. One should thus not simply reject the possibility that the word actually refers to some heretical Jewish-Christian sect, and this group subsequently had an influence of the Quran, as the authors of the Quran do use that very term to refer to Christians.

    There are obviously other reasons as well, but I think this suffices for now.

    What do I mean by the Nazorean hypothesis? Basically that some form of Jewish-Christianity, often called Nazoreans, influenced early Islam and the Quran. Although it is the most extreme version of this hypothesis, Gallez's work is a good  example of it, especially since we have discussed he ideas at some length in this forum.  
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3828 - September 08, 2018, 01:25 PM

    ..........but what exactly are you looking for? A disclaimer at the beginning of each article scholars write saying laa ilaaha (full stop)? ...

    NONSENSE....canaaniteshift  NONSENSE..

     No one is asking for every article/paper written/published  by every faculty member who explores  Islamic history to write   laa ilaaha (full stop)?  disclaimer ...

    but but all these high profile Islamic historians MUST WRITE AT LEAST IN ONE OF THEIR PAPERS AND ON THE FIRST PAGE  OF EVERY BOOK THEY PUBLISH... How about that??  they have published  tons of books can't they add simple  statement  such as

    "Quran is NOT word of some allah/god but it is book of Arabic sonnets and songs of its time "

    WOULD THAT TAKE LOTS OF SPACE IN THE BOOK??  

    did you write any book or any paper on Islamic history??

    Quote
    My comparison with the natural sciences is if I read a geology paper I do not find a declaration by scholars stating: THE EARTH IS ROUND. Geologists when they write their papers do not engage with flat earth theorists.

     Do not even compare  explorers of Islamic history for that matter any religious history with natural science explorers

    Quote
    Why should scientists of Islam's past engage with the beliefs of Muslim religious men? With that said, I was not speaking of race when it came to Islam. I was referring to Altara's linking of a genetics article to explain why he considered Laila Nehme's "Arab" ancestry as relevant to evaluating her ideas. You misunderstood what I wrote.

    who said Laila Nehme's "Arab" ancestry?? ..Now a days even Indonesians and Pakistanis  are saying they are Arabs and I would not be  surprised some one born in Holland claiming that they are Arabs...  

    Well dear canaaniteshift Tell Altara .. "Arab" ancestry is NOT FAR AWAY FROM FRENCH ANCESTRY AND HUMAN ANCESTRY.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3829 - September 08, 2018, 01:33 PM

    Pretty sure I have seen scholars do that. Otherwise it is said implicitly in a very clear manner.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3830 - September 08, 2018, 01:39 PM

    Pretty sure I have seen some scholars do that. Otherwise it is said implicitly in a very clear manner.

    Please add some links on that and their names dear Mahgraye .,  you always say something important without links  ..

    If I remember correctly You said somewhere in this folder "OVER ~90% of present book of Quran is already completed by the year 632"  and that you could see that in those ancient manuscripts found in some walls of some Mosques   ..

    but but you never gave me any links to go through them carefully.. So question to you again.,   Am I right saying that you said   "OVER ~90% of present book of Quran is already completed by the year 632"??

    with best
    yeezeve

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3831 - September 08, 2018, 01:49 PM

    For my brief text on the Quran, see:

    F. Déroche and S. N. Noseda (Eds.), Sources de la transmission manuscrite du texte coranique. I. Les manuscrits de style hijazi. Volume 2. Tome I. Le manuscrit Or. 2165 (f. 1 à 61) de la British Library, 2001, Fondazione Ferni Noja Noseda, Leda, and British Library: London, p. xxvii.

    Nicolai Sinai, The Qur'an: A Historical-Critical Introduction (Edinburgh University Press, 2017), pp. 45-46.

    Patricia Crone, "Foreword", in The Qurʾānic Pagans and Related Matters, ed. Hanna Siurua (Brill, 2016), p. xiii.

    https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/mss/hijazi.html


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3832 - September 08, 2018, 02:10 PM

    For my brief text on the Quran, see:

    1).  F. Déroche and S. N. Noseda (Eds.), Sources de la transmission manuscrite du texte coranique. I. Les manuscrits de style hijazi. Volume 2. Tome I. Le manuscrit Or. 2165 (f. 1 à 61) de la British Library, 2001, Fondazione Ferni Noja Noseda, Leda, and British Library: London, p. xxvii.

    2). Nicolai Sinai, The Qur'an: A Historical-Critical Introduction (Edinburgh University Press, 2017), pp. 45-46.

    3). Patricia Crone, "Foreword", in The Qurʾānic Pagans and Related Matters, ed. Hanna Siurua (Brill, 2016), p. xiii.

    4). https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/mss/hijazi.html


    Hi Mahgraye.,  those 4 references are  for

    1) ."OVER ~90% of present book of Quran is already completed by the year 632"??

    2). Or for this one??
    Pretty sure I have seen scholars do that. Otherwise it is said implicitly in a very clear manner.


    oops I know about that 4th  Assalamu-ʿalaykum wa rahamatullahi wa barakatuhu reference of your post .

    And that is about ."OVER ~90% of present book of Quran is already completed by the year 632" I am going to read through every line of it  and get back to you,,, Do you believe in that work??

    well let me start from the beginning at https://www.islamic-awareness.org/quran/text/mss/

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3833 - September 08, 2018, 02:15 PM

    For the first one.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3834 - September 08, 2018, 02:15 PM

    Actually, now that you mention it, my third reference is Crone and she says just that. Read her foreword.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3835 - September 08, 2018, 02:49 PM

    Now, that does makes a difference. However, in the three inscriptions set up by Kirdīr, which is the bedrock of your argument, ‘Nazoreans’ and  ‘Christians’ are mentioned as two separate communities,


     We do not know that it is "two separate communities". I invite you to contact Brélaud or F. Briquel Chatonnet in academia to get the paper (as it is not published there)  "« Quelques réflexions sur la désignation des chrétiens dans l'inscription du mage Kirdīr et dans l’empire sassanide », Parole de l’Orient 43, 2017, 113-136." and >>> https://www.deepl.com/translator
    Quote
    Kirdīr speaks of not only two religious groups, but seven. Of these seven religious groups, six are linguistically transparent (no need to go through them here, but klstyd’n [kristiyān] is one of them). Remaining is (n)’s(l’)[y] and n’ṣl’y, which are simply two ways of representing the Aramaic nāṣrāy- in the Persian tongue. As the inscription(s) presents the religious denominations in pairs (this occurs after the solitary mention of the Jews at the very beginning), one can only read nāsrāy and kristiyān, as they both are juxtaposed together, as two different kinds of Christians, and not two different ways of referring to catholic (for lack of a better term) Christians, were the former designation was simply more despised by Christians.

    But it is not so simple as it seems, you does not have all the informations.
    (For me...) the explanation given by Brelaud and Briquel-Chatonnet are convincing.
    Read them first.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3836 - September 08, 2018, 02:58 PM



    What do I mean by the Nazorean hypothesis? Basically that some form of Jewish-Christianity, often called Nazoreans, influenced early Islam and the Quran. Although it is the most extreme version of this hypothesis, Gallez's work is a good  example of it, especially since we have discussed he ideas at some length in this forum.  


    My issue with the Gallez's  Ebionites/judeo nazareans thesis, is that they are never mentioned as Gallez describes them in his thesis in any texts Wink nobody know these guys.
    Even the "some form of Jewish-Christianity, often called Nazoreans," as Quranic-like dogmas are not mentioned as Nazoreans by any text. Any.
    EDIT : especially by Epiphanius.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3837 - September 08, 2018, 03:33 PM

    Actually, now that you mention it, my third reference is Crone and she says just that. Read her foreword.

    well leave dr. Crone alone ., let her rest but read her works ... she said that long ago not in 2106... after writing this

    Quote
    "Muhammad was perceived not as the founder of a new religion but as a preacher in the Old Testament tradition, hailing the coming of a messiah. His success, she argued, “had something to do with the fact that he preached both state formation and conquest: Without conquest, first in Arabia and next in the Fertile Crescent, the unification of Arabia would not have been achieved.”


    she was hiding for sometime  from Islamist heroes (WHO NEVER READ QURAN)  and that was way back .. in fact I may have mentioned that fact at https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16018.0

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3838 - September 08, 2018, 03:37 PM

    Thanks, Altara. Will contact Brelaud and Briquel-Chatonnet. You should also take a look at the paper by Christelle and Florence Jullien (“Aux frontières de l’iranité: “nāṣrāyē” et “krīstyonē” des inscriptions du mobad Kirdīr. Enquête littéraire et historique,” Numen, vol. 49, no. 3, 2002, pp. 282–335). Just like Brelaud and Briquel-Chatonnet, they also make the case that Persians one some occasions referred to Christians as nāṣrāyē. In other words, they support your preferred explanation.

    Quote
    Even the "some form of Jewish-Christianity, often called Nazoreans," as Quranic-like dogmas are not mentioned as Nazoreans by any text. Any.


    Maybe, but as you said to me, the issue is not that simple either. Gallez's hypothesis, granted, is the most extreme version of the Jewish-Christianity hypothesis. But I must take some issue - assuming I understood you correctly, since you were talking about Gallez - that the Nazoreans are not mentioned anywhere.

    Epiphanius makes mention of them as a distinct (albeit a heretical one) Christian sect. But Epiphanius is certainly not the only one who mentions them, even if he is the earliest datable author to do so. Almost 100 years prior to Epiphanius - and this somewhat ironic - the Nazoreans are mentioned in a total of three late third century inscription set up by the Zoroastrian high priest Kirdīr, assuming my interpretation of the data is correct. To be fair, and going back to what you said, this is not a simple matter, as this very same inscription has now been interpreted by four scholars (in addition to your source, see the reference I gave above) in a completely different way that does not support the Nazorean hypothesis.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3839 - September 08, 2018, 03:37 PM

    I recommend you to read Jallad, Nehmé, et al. What I outlined, is that they put aside, all context :

    Gradual development alone: how, when, dates? nobody knows. The explication is that you et al. are incapable to explain this evolution/gradual development to reach Zebed, Dumat, Harran. All of these are under Christianity, two under Syriac Church of the East.
    Nor Nehmé and Jallad et al. are historians, all what they say is not scholarship, as they ignore the religious scriptural context present since almost 400 years.



    No, Altara: there are dates and people know. I keep recommending over and over again the article of Nehme (and her forth coming book once it appears). There are very clear dates. The inscriptions are dated. And the inscriptions mention the people. Did you read Robin and Nehme's paper on the Tha'alabah a king from Ghassan? The gradual development from what we call classical Nabataean to Arabic took place before the spread of Christianity! There are pagan inscriptions in the transitional script. You assume that the presence of Syriac Christianity MUST have affected the script, but this is not self evident. I dont think any scholar denies the plausiblity of Syriac influence : but where is it?! That is the point, dear Altara. It is not demonstrable  it is only plausible. While the gradual development from Nabataean, geographically, politically, etc, IS demonstrable, you just deny it without actually addressing the evidence and keep talking about space travel and yawning.  
  • Previous page 1 ... 126 127 128129 130 ... 370 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »