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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3870 - September 08, 2018, 10:17 PM

    Hello.

    I’m not sure if this is the right place to ask but since ass the historians are here...

    Does anyone have any information on Cheraman Jamu Mosque in India?

    According to the Wikipedia article it was built in 629 AD, which seems extremely early. Is this real?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3871 - September 08, 2018, 10:25 PM

    1/ Of course. This stories of remote areas ... Where are the Arabs massively? Iraq/Syria-Palestine ; urban places. The peninsula is void apart nomadic wanderers, small caravans, from whom Jallad discovers inscriptions.  Arabs are so in urban places that the narrative places the Muhammad story in them, and not at all where Jallad finds his inscriptions, namely, mainly, in the desert. And almost all urban places (Dumat, Najran...) inscription in pre Quranic Arabic script (same as Zebed/Harran) bear crosses...Crosses comes from where? Japan?


    2/From Palestine to Euphrates/Tigris and from there to the Gulf, and North to actual Turkey (Edessa).


    The zebed inscription is an outlier and is the unique peice of evidence for arabic in this region, one should not therefore draw a conclusion from it that arabic was used in any concentration here. Just look at the epigraphy from this region : syriac and greek in the hundreds. Why only one Arabic? Then turn to where there is arabic and nabataeo-arabic in larger numbers : the periphery of southern levant and arabia. Harran is definitely peripheral! And so is burqu' the site of the yazid inscription. Then you have the number of texts from tabuk area dumah and najran. This is the very definition of periphery. Even namarah is peripheral! And that's the point.

    As for salehs article which i have read i agree with altara it is the last wind of a asbab al nuzul approach to the quran. There is no reason to assume a Mohammad, but by giving up on mohammad scholars whose training has been completely in that tradition must start from scratch. This point is completely beside the issue of the arabic script and the two must not be confused.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3872 - September 08, 2018, 10:26 PM

    and to clarify altara peripheral does not mean nomadic. These are peripheral urban areas vis. the centers of Rome persia and himyar.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3873 - September 08, 2018, 10:31 PM

    Walid Saleh :
    Quote
    to downplay the role of Muḥammad in delivering and preaching the Qur’an, such that one is presented with an almost disembodied Qur’an, a Qur’an that has no relationship to the career of Muḥammad, and is even without a relationship to a specific locale.


    Saleh is still in the 9th c. (yawn...)

    Quote
    This approach to the Qur’an is sometimes expressed radically (Muḥammad did not exist!) or covertly (by ignoring the role of his character as an element in the explication of the Qur’anic text).


    He gets scared. Normal, all is collapsing...
    Quote
    Milder versions of this position state that there is not much to know about
    the relationship between Muḥammad and the Qur’an. The disappearing of Muḥammad from the Qur’an, and the pretence that it has no preacher, allow for a radical rereading of the Qur’an, such that one can then claim not only that it is an outgrowth of a Christian preaching environment but that the Qur’an’s main audience was a Biblically-saturated (or a Christian or Halakhic-inclined) community. Mecca disappears (for some, literally) from the map, and Muḥammad becomes, if not a legendary figure, inconsequential.1


    1/Not a rereading Walid. A reading outside the narrative (Mecca/Medina/Zem Zem...) as it should always have been. But Westerners trusted you. They were wrong. Now the veil is unveiling...
    2/ Yes Biblically-saturated, it is the word.
    3/ Yes there's no Mecca before Islam. Nada.
    4/ "Muḥammad" has never existed, yes. It is an adjective qualifying Jesus in the Dome inscription (cf. Kropp ...)
    Quote
    Yet this is not the only reason to revisit the topic of Muḥammad in the Qur’an: most
    Qur’an specialists take (and have always taken) the historical existence of Muḥammad as a given, and so nowadays do most of the radical revisionists

    Exceptionnal!  He confesses that so called radical revisionists are not! Since the existence of Muḥammad , the producer of the Quranic corpus is a given for them!  Can they be designated as radical revisionists  then?
    Nope.
    Because a normal revisionist (that I am...) after a look at the dossier, the existence  of Muḥammad is surely not a given! It has to be settled before engaging the rest.

    Quote
    There is actually a more serious issue at hand. Our Fragestellung about what the Qur’an has to tell us about Muḥammad is deeply problematic. It is what I call biographically conceived, seeking to reconstruct a life of Muḥammad in the manner of a nineteenth-century outline of the bourgeois comprehensive and comprehensible life. Having cast the Sīra nabawiyya aside, our turn to the Qur’an has proven disappointing, entailing a total disregard of what we could learn about Muḥammad from the Qur’an


    Waiting for the "but/except"...
    Got it : #2
    Quote
    We do have a date, indeed a fundamental date, to frame the Qur’an, which I will return to below.

    Quote
    But, more importantly, the Qur’an is packed with information about Muḥammad.

    Exceptional!  I'm a great prophet, I knew it.
    Quote
    The Qur’an would not be what it is if it did provide a biography in the manner academics seek. It is actually a far more important document than a linear, biographical gospel would be: it is a record of his preaching.

    Because the Gospels are not  a record of the preaching of Jesus? (Why not Wink )
    I'm sure Walid Saleh is an intelligent guy. When it deals with the Quran, he is totally circumvented.

    To be continued (or not...)




  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3874 - September 08, 2018, 10:41 PM

    Quote
    Muḥammad’s immediate audience could hardly be Christians, or be living in a Christian environment, for were they versed in things Christian they would have seen him in a heretical prism. He was, after all, claiming to speak on behalf of God and not the Church or Christ, and they would have used a saturated Christian vocabulary against him, which is utterly lacking; none of the arguments of those called mushrikūn are Biblically inflected. Moreover, Muḥammad’s claims entirely lacked a Christ-centred kerygma, as might attest a Christian background. A reference to the church is nowhere to be found. The picture we find in the Qur’an is of a pagan environment in which gods broke into the world through angelic figures, or through non-human agents; Muḥammad was a new voice, and a perplexing one to his audience. And though it is clear that there is a strong deuteronomistic structure to his self-understanding (more on this later), it lacks the most distinctive Jewish feature, namely concern for the fate of Israel or the salvation of Israel. This is a preaching that does not care for the people of Israel, and as such is not Jewish. Muḥammad was preaching a deuteronomistically-inflected new religion, but it hardly made him preach a Judaism or a Christianity. He was coming with a new kerygma, and it was all his own.


    Currently going through Saleh's article. This part somehow bothered me. How does one respond to it in a scholarly manner?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3875 - September 08, 2018, 10:45 PM

    Hello.

    I’m not sure if this is the right place to ask but since ass the historians are here...

    Does anyone have any information on Cheraman Jamu Mosque in India?

    According to the Wikipedia article it was built in 629 AD, which seems extremely early. Is this real?

    I’ve no information about it but it sounds a very implausible claim.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3876 - September 08, 2018, 11:27 PM

    Currently going through Saleh's article. This part somehow bothered me. How does one respond to it in a scholarly manner?

    I wonder if Jack Tannous’s idea of ‘simple believers’ is relevant here. That the beliefs and understanding of most Christians didn’t necessarily reflect the doctrines of the church hierarchies. There’s a preview of his book available here with the look inside feature: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Making-Medieval-Middle-East-Believers/dp/0691179093
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3877 - September 09, 2018, 12:26 AM

    Quote
    In 530/1 CE an ambassador from Constantinople to Yemen and Abyssinia, Nonnosus, upon passing through Arabia reports that the 'Saracens' south of NW Arabia gather twice a year at a certain (unnamed) place in honor of 'one of their gods' and observe months of truce during this time. Ten years later Procopius quotes Belisarius as saying that the 'Saracens' of al-Mundhir won't engage in battle since they observe months if truce during the time they are involved with their observances to 'their God'. So this is consistent with the Qur'anic view that there were Arabs (at least in the 6th cent) who had an indigenous cult around a High God with 'associates'. A Western European pilgrim to Jerusalem describes how the 'Saracens' of the Sinai would also gather around a black stone at a certain time and observe a period of truce in the same century. Clearly these were not Christian or Jewish


    What is your take on this?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3878 - September 09, 2018, 02:15 AM

    Quote
    Hello.

    I’m not sure if this is the right place to ask but since ass the historians are here...

    Does anyone have any information on Cheraman Jamu Mosque in India?

    According to the Wikipedia article it was built in 629 AD, which seems extremely early. Is this real?

    I’ve no information about it but it sounds a very implausible claim.


    Hell  curious-lurker.. I am afraid zeca may be right.,  but on the other hand many of us in this forum and many Muslim intellectuals as well as non-Muslim intellectuals who could be faculty members  in universities and publishes papers in journals seem NOT TO KNOW THE MEANING OF THE WORDS LIKE "MUHAMMAD" and  "MOSQUE"  so  therein lies the problem  dear  lurker ..

    anyway let me list some of those  ooold mosques...  list

    1. List of the oldest mosques


    Quote
    The Oldest Mosques In The World
    Rank   Building   Location   Modern country   First Built
    1   Masjid al-Haram   Mecca   Saudi Arabia   unknown (presumed to be oldest)
    2   Quba Mosque   Medina   Saudi Arabia   622
    3   Al-Masjid al-Nabawi   Medina   Saudi Arabia   622
    4   Masjid al-Qiblatain   Medina   Saudi Arabia   623

    5   Huaisheng Mosque   Guangzhou   China   627
    6   Masjid al-Qiblatayn   Zeila   Somalia   627
    7   Cheraman Juma Masjid   Kodungallur   India   629
    8   Palaiya Jumma Palli   Kilakarai   India   630
    9   Jawatha Mosque   Al-Kilabiyah   Saudi Arabia   629
    10   Great Mosque of Kufa   Kufa   Iraq   639
    11   Mosque of Uqba   Kairouan   Tunisia   670
    12   Imam Hussain Mosque   Karbala   Iraq   680
    13   Al-Aqsa Mosque   Old City of Jerusalem   Jerusalem   705
    14   Al-Zaytuna Mosque   Tunis   Tunisia   709
    15   Umayyad Mosque   Damascus   Syria   715
    16   Imam Ali Mosque   Najaf   Iraq   977
    17   Great Mosque of Xi'an   Xi'an, Shaanxi   China   742
    18   Atiq Mosque, Awjila   Awjila   Libya   1101
    19   Arba'a Rukun Mosque   Mogadishu   Somalia   1268/9
    20   Fakr ad-Din Mosque   Mogadishu   Somalia   1269
    21   Kazimar Big Mosque   Madurai   India   1284

    I too have same question about these dates of Mosques.,  In fact i question those first 3 mosques of Sand land.. And on the way let me remind the readers classical History Prophet of Islam..

    Quote
    571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant. Invasion of Makkah by Abraha the Viceroy of Yemen, his retreat.
    577: The Holy Prophet visits Madina with his mother. Death of his mother.
    580: Death of Abdul Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet.
    583: The Holy Prophet's journey to Syria in the company of his uncle Abu Talib. His meeting with the monk Bahira at Bisra who foretells of his prophethood.
    586: The Holy Prophet participates in the war of Fijar.
    591: The Holy Prophet becomes an active member of "Hilful Fudul", a league for the relief of the distressed.
    594: The Holy Prophet becomes the Manager of the business of Lady Khadija, and leads her trade caravan to Syria and back.
    595: The Holy Prophet marries Hadrat Khadija.
    605: The Holy Prophet arbitrates in a dispute among the Quraish about the placing of the Black Stone in the Kaaba.
    610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
    613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.

    614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
    615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia.
    616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia.
    617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah.
    619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.
    620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
    621: First pledge at Aqaba.
    622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
    623: Nakhla expedition.
    624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
    625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
    626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
    627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
    628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
    629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
    630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
    631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
    632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
    632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph. Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.

    see that Prophet was born in 571 and prophet died in 632...  

    Now question/project to you ...  GOOGLE AND LIST ALL THE MOSQUES AROUND THE GLOBE  THAT WERE CONSTRUCTED BEFORE THE DEATH OF PROPHET  OF ISLAM..

    and welcome to the den and my best wishes to you  dear curious-lurker
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3879 - September 09, 2018, 08:01 AM

    The zebed inscription is an outlier and is the unique peice of evidence for arabic in this region, one should not therefore draw a conclusion from it that arabic was used in any concentration here.


    Toward East from Zebed you have the Beth Arabayé : massive concentration of Arabs with Syriac people under Persians rule. South, the same, West the same.


    Quote
    Just look at the epigraphy from this region : syriac and greek in the hundreds. Why only one Arabic?

    Arabs (therefore Arabic) do not have the place that the Syriac and the Greek have since ages in these regions (Beth Arabayé, Levant, Iraq), even if they are heavily present. It is an internal language (therefore script) not (at all)  the same role/situation of  Syriac and Greek installed there as administrative and commerce language. The explication (of "only one Arabic) is there.
    Quote
    Then turn to where there is arabic and nabataeo-arabic in larger numbers : the periphery of southern levant and arabia.

     

    Because there is only Arabic people there, where nor Greek or Syriac have been the support of what is in the North and East : Greek as administrative and Syriac as commerce and language of the indigenous.
    In this respect, the Nessana papyri (cf. Rachel Stroumsa, "People and Identities in Nessana") shows that where geographically Greek is installed, people identified as Arabs by their names does not use the proto Quranic script of Dumat, Zebed, Najran, Harran. They use Greek. Even if they are bilingual as Arabs.
    But as soon as the ruler shift, they use the Quranic script, which is perfectly logical in my view. That is why there is only one proto Quranic inscription in Zebed ruled by the Romans and linguistically by Greek and Syriac.

    Quote
    Harran is definitely peripheral! And so is burqu' the site of the yazid inscription. Then you have the number of texts from tabuk area dumah and najran. This is the very definition of periphery. Even namarah is peripheral! And that's the point.


    Nope. Harran is an area ruled by the Romans. Nothing to see with Dumat and Najran, where nor Greek or Syriac are installed like elsewhere but only Syriac script  because of the religion. It is then logical to see proto Quranic script inscription.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3880 - September 09, 2018, 08:16 AM

    .
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3881 - September 09, 2018, 08:29 AM

    Nessana is peripheral?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3882 - September 09, 2018, 08:42 AM

    The Negev looks fairly peripheral to me.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3883 - September 09, 2018, 08:51 AM

    From what?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3884 - September 09, 2018, 08:59 AM

    To the areas with higher rainfall a bit to the north.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3885 - September 09, 2018, 09:18 AM

    In this register, of course.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3886 - September 09, 2018, 10:51 AM

    I wonder if Jack Tannous’s idea of ‘simple believers’ is relevant here. That the beliefs and understanding of most Christians didn’t necessarily reflect the doctrines of the church hierarchies. There’s a preview of his book available here with the look inside feature: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Making-Medieval-Middle-East-Believers/dp/0691179093


    In view of the dossier it seems logical  (to me...) that Tannous, in his reflection path about it, thinks to this. 'Simple believers’ initiated by Donner's 'believers'. A declination of it. Like others thesis  (apocalyptic origin of the Quran, etc)  ' simple believers'/'believers' will be used to the core until being scanned in every detail. I predict another version of this one in 15/20 years and so on...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3887 - September 09, 2018, 11:02 AM

    It isn’t obvious to me that Tannous’s ‘simple believers’ has much to do with Donner’s ‘believers’ thesis, other than a coincidence of wording. Or maybe I’m missing something.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3888 - September 09, 2018, 11:07 AM

    Tannous reviews Donner: https://expositions.journals.villanova.edu/article/download/685/604
    Quote
    “There is no historical task,” Albert Schweitzer wrote, “which so reveals a man’s true self as the writing of a Life of Jesus.”9 Perhaps something similar might be said of the life of Muhammad. Donner’s endgame in writing a work such as MB is not difficult to divine: apart making moves in the context of specialized debates carried out among Islamicists, it is evident that his hope is to help create and legitimate a space for an inclusive, tolerant Islam in today’s world by finding such an Islam in the seventh century, when it all began. If the earliest Islam was ecumenical and open to anyone who believed in one God and supported the idea of pious and good behavior – if it bore an uncanny resemblance in certain respects to a contemporary mainline Protestant church – then such a discovery would be an enormous boon to liberals in the West and would make today’s Muslim reformers the true salafis, for they, not Wahhabis or the Muslim Brotherhood, would be seeking to return the Islamic community to its true beginnings.

    Nevertheless, good politics and good history are not always easy bedfellows, and however laudable Donner’s goal might be, MB unfortunately suffers from a number of serious defects. The first and perhaps most serious problem is the lack of evidence for many of the claims that Donner makes;10 the brittleness and shallowness of the evidentiary basis of much of Donner’s picture is obscured to the non-specialist by the text’s lack of footnotes, but at times it is even apparent from a plain reading of MB. For instance, a major assertion – that the words “Believer” and “Muslim” were redefined under ‘Abd al-Malik to exclude Jews and Christians (203–204) – is backed up by only passing references to the naming practices of unspecified non-Arabic sources and by what is essentially a discussion of the logic behind the use of the words “Believers” (mu’uminun), “Emigrants” (muhajirun) and “Muslim” without clear reference to any particular texts, apart from the Quran itself. “In the present state of our knowledge,” Donner writes, “we can only speculate about why this shift in the identity of the Believers occurred” (204). In other words, a major claim is made, little in the way of evidence is offered to support it, and then it is followed by self-confessed speculation as to why the shift in self-identification – never proven in the first place – actually occurred.11 Such guess work is not an isolated incident, either: MB is populated by speculative “may haves”12 which have little, if any, supporting evidence and which give the reader little confidence in the verisimilitude of the picture Donner attempts to paint. In other cases, claims Donner makes seem to be actually contradicted by what evidence we do possess: Islam, according to Donner, is supposed to have emerged from the Believers’ movement in the late seventh and early eighth century and it was at this point that the movement began to exclude Christians and evince an attitude that was more hostile towards Christian doctrines. But the Maronite Chronicle, a Syriac document dating from the 660s, reports that already by the year 660, the Caliph Mu ̔āwiya attempted to issue a coinage on which the Christian cross had been removed, an omission which meant that people refused to use them.13 Could it have been the case that early Islam was not more explicit in its outward manifestations of sectarian identity because as a small, fragile minority beginning rule over a much, much larger majority, it had to be mindful of how overtly triumphalist and provocative sectarian acts – such as de-Christianizing coins – might have been received by the mass of its non-Muslim population?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3889 - September 09, 2018, 11:20 AM

    Walid Saleh, p.34 :
    Quote
    The scholarly attempt to ‘contextualise’ the Qur’an has become another mode of actually robbing it of any originality.

    Italic/bold is mine .
    Yes, the  identitarian (originality is  of course the "Arabic" one) whining to be robbed of it, is surely the fundamental motivation of Muslim scholars (including Jallad whom the scholarly activity is to, without saying it of course, as he feels that for the text, all is lost, affirm the purely and solely Arabic origin of the Quranic script).
    According to each (Muslim) scholar, the whine is, of course, expressed differently. But it is always there. And it is normal : 1400 years of indoctrination of wrong informations cannot be settled easily. As if to the Greeks, we states that : "Guys, Iliad, in fact, is an Egyptian (I say nonsense of course) well crafted work."
    Except that in the Quran case, it goes far beyond the Iliad case.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3890 - September 09, 2018, 11:21 AM

    It isn’t obvious to me that Tannous’s ‘simple believers’ has much to do with Donner’s ‘believers’ thesis, other than a coincidence of wording. Or maybe I’m missing something.

    A declination, whose maybe he is not aware.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3891 - September 09, 2018, 11:28 AM


    Tannous 2011 :
    Quote
    Apart from Internet enthusiasts and religiously-motivated polemicists, nobody today, not even Cook and Crone themselves, believes that the picture of early Islam put forth in Hagarism is an accurate one.


    Tannous was framed (like all...); there is no statement of Crone saying this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3892 - September 09, 2018, 11:33 AM

    Was the Quran written in Syriac?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3893 - September 09, 2018, 11:37 AM

    It isn’t obvious to me that Tannous’s ‘simple believers’ has much to do with Donner’s ‘believers’ thesis, other than a coincidence of wording. Or maybe I’m missing something.


    Tannous apropos Donner :

    Quote
    The early believers were concerned with social and political issues but only insofar as they related to concepts of piety and proper behavior needed to ensure salvation.


    It is a 'simple' belief.

    Quote
    [Islam] was, rather, an ecumenical, monotheistic, religious reform movement which had an emphasis on piety and a strong belief in an imminent Last Day


    Idem.
    Quote
    "If Muhammad and his followers did not see themselves as “Muslims” in our sense of the word, what exactly were they? They would have identified themselves as “Believers,”


    in what? :
    Quote
    The early believers were concerned with social and political issues but only insofar as they related to concepts of piety and proper behavior needed to ensure salvation.


    Very 'simple' belief.

    Quote
    Monotheism was the key and foundational belief in Muhammad’s movement: “Above all else, Believers were enjoined to recognize the oneness of God. […]


    Very very 'simple'...
    Etc.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3894 - September 09, 2018, 11:42 AM

    Was the Quran written in Syriac?


    I consider that Quranic Arabic linguistically was very intermingled with Syriac, so much so that it seems (to me...) very difficult to know  which is purely Syriac or Arabic. It could be done sometimes but not for all the words.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3895 - September 09, 2018, 11:44 AM

    So, Luxenberg could be right in his Arabic-Aramaic mixed language?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3896 - September 09, 2018, 12:25 PM

    I consider that Quranic Arabic linguistically was very intermingled with Syriac, so much so that it seems (to me...) very difficult to know  which is purely Syriac or Arabic. It could be done sometimes but not for all the words.

    Your posts and responses makes lot of sense on the history and origins of Quran dear Altara ., Damn this Arabian oil money along with religious nut cases never allowed scholars to explore real origins of Quran and made billion folks bend their asses up in to the sky and heads in to the sands of Arabia

    Quote


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3897 - September 09, 2018, 01:05 PM

    So, Luxenberg could be right in his Arabic-Aramaic mixed language?


    Yes, he could be, it could be that the place where was written the QCT was a place where Arabic was intermingled enough with Syriac to the point of that it is very difficult to distinguish what is "borrowed" or not for us. But it is possible that this intermingled with Syriac can be an artificial construction, and not a natural one.
    Of course it is not the case of all Arabic dialects simply because of the absence of Syriac population or an heavy prevalence of the Syriac language.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3898 - September 09, 2018, 01:49 PM

    Your posts and responses makes lot of sense on the history and origins of Quran dear Altara ., Damn this Arabian oil money along with religious nut cases never allowed scholars to explore real origins of Quran and made billion folks bend their asses up in to the sky and heads in to the sands of Arabia


    Thanks Yeez. I'm not alone in this case, I see it everyday on this thread.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #3899 - September 09, 2018, 02:39 PM

    What is your take on this?

    In 530/1 CE an ambassador from Constantinople to Yemen and Abyssinia, Nonnosus, upon passing through Arabia reports that the 'Saracens' south of NW Arabia gather twice a year at a certain (unnamed) place in honor of 'one of their gods' and observe months of truce during this time. Ten years later Procopius quotes Belisarius as saying that the 'Saracens' of al-Mundhir won't engage in battle since they observe months if truce during the time they are involved with their observances to 'their God'. So this is consistent with the Qur'anic view that there were Arabs (at least in the 6th cent) who had an indigenous cult around a High God with 'associates'. A Western European pilgrim to Jerusalem describes how the 'Saracens' of the Sinai would also gather around a black stone at a certain time and observe a period of truce in the same century. Clearly these were not Christian or Jewish

    What is this?
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