Qur'anic studies today

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- Mahgraye
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Reply #3900 - September 09, 2018, 02:42 PM

Someone wrote this. What is your assessment?
- Altara
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Reply #3901 - September 09, 2018, 03:56 PM

Not good. As we have not exact quotations (and exact dates) of the different sources. Nonnosus, Procopius, Belisarius, "A Western European pilgrim".
All of this is glowish.

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In 530/1 CE an ambassador from Constantinople to Yemen and Abyssinia, Nonnosus, upon passing through Arabia reports that the 'Saracens' south of NW Arabia gather twice a year at a certain (unnamed) place in honor of 'one of their gods' and observe months of truce during this time. Ten years later Procopius quotes Belisarius as saying that the 'Saracens' of al-Mundhir won't engage in battle since they observe months if truce during the time they are involved with their observances to 'their God'. So this is consistent with the Qur'anic view that there were Arabs (at least in the 6th cent) who had an indigenous cult around a High God with 'associates'. A Western European pilgrim to Jerusalem describes how the 'Saracens' of the Sinai would also gather around a black stone at a certain time and observe a period of truce in the same century. Clearly these were not Christian or Jewish
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Reply #3902 - September 09, 2018, 04:07 PM

I have the full reference. Will give it soon.
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Reply #3903 - September 09, 2018, 04:11 PM

6th cent. attestation:
Procopius on 541 CE De Bello Persico
Βελισάριος μὲν τοσαῦτα εἶπε. Πέτρος δὲ καὶ Βούζης ἐξηγεῖσθαι τῷ στρατῷ οὐδὲν μελλήσοντα ἐπὶ τὴν πολεμίαν ἐκέλευον. Ὧν δὴ τῇ γνώμῃ εἵποντο εὐθὺς ὁ ξύλλογος ἅπας. Ῥεκίθαγγος μέντοι καὶ Θεόκτιστος, οἱ τῶν ἐν Λιβάνῳ στρατιωτῶν ἄρχοντες,
ταὐτὰ μὲν τοῖς ἄλλοις ἀμφὶ τῇ ἐσβολῇ βούλεσθαι καὶ αὐτοὶ ἔφασαν, δεδιέναι δὲ μὴ σφῶν ἐκλελοιπότων τά τε ἐπὶ Φοινίκης καὶ Συρίας χωρία κατ´ ἐξουσίαν μὲν Ἀλαμούνδαρος ταῦτα ληίζηται, βασιλεὺς δὲ σφᾶς δι´ ὀργῆς ἔχοι, ἅτε οὐ φυλάξαντας ἀδῄωτον τὴν χώραν ἧς ἦρχον,
καὶ δι´ αὐτὸ συνεισβάλλειν τῷ ἄλλῳ στρατῷ οὐδαμῆ ἤθελον
: Βελισάριος δὲ τὼ ἄνδρε τούτω ὡς ἥκιστα ἀληθῆ οἴεσθαι ἔλεγε. τοῦ γὰρ καιροῦ τροπὰς θερινὰς εἶναι. ταύτης δὲ τῆς ὥρας δύο μάλιστα μῆνας ἀνάθημα τῷ σφετέρῳ θεῷ Σαρακηνοὺς ἐς ἀεὶ φέροντας ἐν ταύτῃ ἐπιδρομῇ τινι οὔποτε χρῆσθαι ἐς γῆν ἀλλοτρίαν.
Nonnosus, quoted by Photius for events circa 530 CE
: ὅτι τῶν Σαρακηνῶν οἱ πλεῖστοι, οἵ τε ἐν τῷ Φοινικῶνι καὶ οἱ τοῦ Φοινικῶνος καὶ τῶν ὀνομαζομένων Ταυρηνῶν ὀρῶν ἐπέκεινα, ἱερόν τι χωρίον νομίζουσιν ὁτῳδὴ θεῶν ἀνειμένον, καὶ ἐνταῦθα συλλέγονται κατ’ ἐνιαυτὸν ἕκαστον δίς· ὧν τὴν μὲν τῶν πανηγύρεων αὐτῶν μὴν ὅλος μετρεῖ παρατείνων, σχεδόν που τοῦ ἔαρος κατὰ τὸ μέσον τελουμένην, ὅτε τὸν ταῦρον ὁ ἥλιος ἐπιπορεύεται· ἡ δὲ ἑτέρα πανήγυρις δυσὶ μησὶ παρα τείνεται. μετὰ θερινὰς τροπὰς ἄγουσι ταύτην. ἐν ταύταις, φησὶ, ταῖς πανηγύρεσιν πᾶσαν ἄγουσιν εἰρήνην, οὐ πρὸς ἀλλήλους μόνον, ἀλλὰ καὶ πρὸς ἅπαντας τοὺς ἐνδημοῦντας ἀνθρώπους· φασὶ δὲ ὅτι καὶ τὰ θηρία πρὸς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους, οὐ μόνον δὲ ἀλλὰ καὶ αὐτὰ πρὸς ἄλληλα.
Procopius:
Bélisaire ayant parlé de la sorte, Pierre et Busès furent d'avis de mener l'armée dans le pays des Perses, et cet avis fut suivi de toutes les voir. Il n'y eut que Récitanque et Théodicte, capitaines des garnirons du Liban, qui dirent qu'ils jugeaient bien de même que les autres, qu'il était à propos d'entrer sur les terres des ennemis, mais que pour eux ils ne croyaient pas y devoir entrer, parce qu'ils appréhendaient qu'Almondare ne ravageât la Syrie et la Phénicie en leur absence, et que l'Empereur ne les blâmât d'avoir abandonné ces Provinces dont il leur avait confié la garde.
Voilà comment ils s'excusèrent de suivre le reste des troupes. Bélisaire leur remontra qu'ils se trompaient: Que le solstice d'été étant arrivé, c'était la saison ou les Sarrasins avaient coutume de présenter des sacrifices à leurs Dieux durant deux mois, et que pendant ce temps-là ils ne faisaient point de guerre
Belissarius spoke thus. Petros and Bouzis had the opinion that the army should enter the enemy land without further ado. The college was unanimous in favour of that opinion. However, Recitangos and Theodictus, the commanders of the Lebanon armies, while agreeing with the others as to the invasion, did not want to participate themselves because they were afraid that during their absence Almondarus would ravage the lands of Phoenicia and Syria and the King would be angry against them for not protecting the land they had under their command. Belissarius said that the words of those two men seemed to him hardly plausible, because it was summer solstice and on that season the Saracens were always presenting offerings to their God during two whole months, so they never go away to attack foreign lands.
Nonnosus:
Il nous raconte que la plupart des Sarrasins qui habitent le Phœnicon, et au-delà du Phœnicon et des monts Taurènes (9), considèrent comme sacré un certain lieu, qui est consacré à un Dieu. Ils s'y assemblent deux fois par an. L'une de ces assemblées dure un mois entier, et finit presque au milieu du printemps, quand le so-leil entre dans le signe du taureau. L'autre assemblée dure deux mois; elle se tient après le solstice d'été. Pendant le temps de ces assemblées, il y a une très grande paix entre ceux qui viennent à la fête et les habitants de ces lieux. On dit aussi que pendant le même temps les bêtes féroces ne font aucun mal aux hommes, et qu'elles ne s'attaquent pas même entre elles..
Most of the Saracens, both those in the Palm Grove and those beyond it and the so-called Taurenian mountains, consider as sacred a spot dedicated to one of the gods, gathering there twice each year. The first of these assemblies extends over a whole month and takes place about the middle of the spring, when the sun passes through the sign of Aries, while the other assembly lasts two months; this they celebrate after the summer solstice. In these assemblies they observe a complete peace, not only towards each other, but also towards all men living in their country. They claim that wild animals are at peace with man, and not only this, but that they are at peace with each other.

From Hoyland, Arabia and Arabs before Islam
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Reply #3904 - September 09, 2018, 05:19 PM

Quote from: Altara on September 09, 2018, 08:01 AM
Toward East from Zebed you have the Beth Arabayé : massive concentration of Arabs with Syriac people under Persians rule. South, the same, West the same.

Arabs (therefore Arabic) do not have the place that the Syriac and the Greek have since ages in these regions (Beth Arabayé, Levant, Iraq), even if they are heavily present. It is an internal language (therefore script) not (at all) the same role/situation of Syriac and Greek installed there as administrative and commerce language. The explication (of "only one Arabic) is there.

Because there is only Arabic people there, where nor Greek or Syriac have been the support of what is in the North and East : Greek as administrative and Syriac as commerce and language of the indigenous.
In this respect, the Nessana papyri (cf. Rachel Stroumsa, "People and Identities in Nessana") shows that where geographically Greek is installed, people identified as Arabs by their names does not use the proto Quranic script of Dumat, Zebed, Najran, Harran. They use Greek. Even if they are bilingual as Arabs.
But as soon as the ruler shift, they use the Quranic script, which is perfectly logical in my view. That is why there is only one proto Quranic inscription in Zebed ruled by the Romans and linguistically by Greek and Syriac.

Nope. Harran is an area ruled by the Romans. Nothing to see with Dumat and Najran, where nor Greek or Syriac are installed like elsewhere but only Syriac script because of the religion. It is then logical to see proto Quranic script inscription.

Altara, peripheral does not mean outside of Roman control. It means on the cultural fringe where other identities can have manifested themselves. There are Greek and Nabataean inscriptions from Dumah. There are Greek and Latin inscriptions from Northwest Arabia as well. And at Najran there are also Nabataean inscriptions. This is the point, Altara. With the sole exception of Zebed, the Arabic script is the 6th c. form of the Nabataean script; it is found in the exact places where Nabataean is at a time period where Nabataean is not attested any more. Every technical aspect points towards Nabataean. The evolution is clear but to you, who invoke Syriac over and over again without a single shred of evidence.

As for your incredible statement that Quranic Arabic and Syriac are intertwined so much that you cannot tell one from the other. I am speechless truly. In fact, I am so stunned by this statement that I think I will direct it to Mr Van Putten, the foremost scholar on the language of the Quran for his reaction. As far as I can see the Quranic language is entirely Arabic, and to the extend that there is Syriac vocabulary this is normal and borrowed, and much of it centuries before the writing of the Quran.
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Reply #3905 - September 09, 2018, 05:22 PM

I am also skeptical about Altara's assessment of Quranic Arabic and Syriac being intermingled.
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Reply #3906 - September 09, 2018, 05:25 PM

Here is what Marijn van Putten thinks of the matter:

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I think the Quran was simply composed in Hijazi Arabic. I see no evidence for a "poetic koine" in the 7th century. What it certainly is not, is Syriac. [...] qur'ān is not a loanword from Syriac. If anything it's a loan translation, if even that.
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Reply #3907 - September 09, 2018, 05:50 PM

Thanks. It is interesting.
Procopius testimony (541) is interesting because it is written by Westerners about Persians Arabs that they did not know (at all) apart in combat.
Procopius>>> Persians Arabs from Iraq
because it was summer solstice and on that season the Saracens were always presenting offerings to their God during two whole months,
Photius >>> Palm Grove -Western Peninsula
the sign of Aries, while the other assembly lasts two months; this they celebrate after the summer solstice. In these assemblies they observe a complete peace,

Do you see my point?
Strangely the Persians Arabs are said Christianized in the end of the 6th c. (Khuszistan chronicles, academia papers, etc)
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Reply #3908 - September 09, 2018, 06:21 PM

Quote from: canaaniteshift on September 09, 2018, 05:19 PM
Altara, peripheral does not mean outside of Roman control. It means on the cultural fringe where other identities can have manifested themselves. There are Greek and Nabataean inscriptions from Dumah.

You does not respond to my arguments (all can see that...). You have nothing to say apart digression...

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There are Greek and Latin inscriptions from Northwest Arabia as well.

Digression.
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. This is the point, Altara. With the sole exception of Zebed, the Arabic script is the 6th c. form of the Nabataean script;

Digression. I've explained why, you have nothing to say.

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it is found in the exact places where Nabataean is at a time period where Nabataean is not attested any more.

It is not "Nabatean" as Greek in not Phoenician.

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Every technical aspect points towards Nabataean.

Because it was (maybe ) built from, but not alone. We are not in Europe.

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The evolution is clear but to you, who invoke Syriac over and over again without a single shred of evidence.

Nope. It is not clear. I said why.

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As for your incredible statement that Quranic Arabic and Syriac are intertwined so much that you cannot tell one from the other. I am speechless truly.

Jeffery has made a book, read it.
Dye has made an interesting article, read it.
https://www.academia.edu/36316777/Traces_of_Bilingualism_Multilingualism_in_Qur_%C4%81nic_Arabic_in_Arabic_in_Context_ed._Ahmad_al-Jallad_Leiden_Brill_Studies_in_Semitic_Languages_and_Linguistics_2017_pp._337-371
( I know you've already read all.)

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In fact, I am so stunned by this statement that I think I will direct it to Mr Van Putten, the foremost scholar on the language of the Quran for his reaction.

I'm scared lol!
Scholarship does not work with things like " the foremost scholar on the language of the Quran "

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As far as I can see the Quranic language is entirely Arabic, and to the extend that there is Syriac vocabulary this is normal and borrowed, and much of it centuries before the writing of the Quran.

Lol, it is almost what I say
And that "there is Syriac script this is normal and borrowed, and much of it centuries before the writing of the Quran." is impossible?
What would be possible for the language and impossible for the script?
There is no explication to this difference.
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Reply #3909 - September 09, 2018, 06:29 PM

Quote from: Mahgraye on September 09, 2018, 05:25 PM
Here is what Marijn van Putten thinks of the matter:

Quote
I think the Quran was simply composed in Hijazi Arabic. I see no evidence for a "poetic koine" in the 7th century. What it certainly is not, is Syriac. [...] qur'ān is not a loanword from Syriac. If anything it's a loan translation, if even that.

1/My issue with this, is that "Hijazi " does not exist before Islam. It is a word given after Islam to a specific region ; before, nobody knows it.
2/ I do not speak of a "poetic koine" anywhere.
3/ Nobody says that is it Syriac (even Luxenberg...) like nobody says that French is Spanish or Italian.
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Reply #3910 - September 09, 2018, 06:59 PM

Interesting. Does Luxenberg say that the Quran is not in Syriac?
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Reply #3911 - September 09, 2018, 07:00 PM

Lurker,

The "Cheraman Jamu Mosque in India"is in the list of Gibson pointing to Petra... Have you checked if this is correct?

In the North of India there is the Barwadi Mosque. It is claimed that it has been built between 628 and 630. https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/ahmedabad/Oldest-Indian-mosque-Trail-leads-to-Gujarat/articleshow/55270285.cms
I checked the orientation on google earth. It seems to be pointing to Petra too! (coordinates are 21°41'31.57"N and 72°16'15.79"E)

I do get the problem with the dating. It is simply not possible according to the traditional Islamic mythology...

But let us accept that the dating is way off, why is its Qibla direction not to Mecca as the other mosques of the area are?

On the other hand if the dating is correct, that would mean that the Aranbs were extremely mobile and great seafarers early 7th C and that the tradition of orienting their prayer places (in whatever religion they practiced), predated Islam.

I think this topic of ultra-early mosques deserves some attention.
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Reply #3912 - September 09, 2018, 07:19 PM

These early dates are obviously false. Gibson should have done his homework instead to trying to demonstrate that Islam originated in Petra.
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Reply #3913 - September 09, 2018, 07:25 PM

These early dates are obviously false. Gibson should have done his homework instead to trying to demonstrate that Islam originated in Petra.

Let us dig deeper in the matter. How intense was the Arab trade with India early 7th C?
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Reply #3914 - September 09, 2018, 07:59 PM

David S. Power (2018) - From Nuzi to Medina: Q. 4:12b, Revisited.
https://www.academia.edu/37369455/From_Nuzi_to_Medina_Oriental_Institute_Seminar

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The Qurʼân contains several linguistic puzzles that have never been fully solved. One such puzzle is found in the second half of verse 12 of Sûrat al-Nisâʼ (“Women”), which treats the subject of inheritance. The grammar and syntax of this sub-verse are notoriously difficult, and the meaning of the word kalâla remains obscure down to the present day. In this essay I propose a new reading of the consonantal skeleton of Q 4:12b and a new understanding of its meaning. My proposal is based on two types of evidence: (1) the physical evidence of an early Qurʼân manuscript, Bibliothèque Nationale de France Arabe 328; and (2) linguistic evidence found in matrimonial adoption contracts recorded on cuneiform tablets in Nuzi in the middle of the second millennium BCE. The physical and linguistic evidence combine to suggest that it took nearly a century — fifty years more than is generally thought to be the case — for the consonantal skeleton of the Qurʼân to reach its final form. I begin with a review of the traditional Islamic account of the collection of the Qurʼân.

.
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Reply #3915 - September 09, 2018, 09:18 PM

I'm thinking, what Sinai thinks of "kalala"... Powers is rather convincing on this. Does not surprise me that the rasm was changed to please this or that. What is interesting, is that it deals with social stuff. Nothing else. Surely there was other change, adding verses (end of sura, etc) but it is not the core text. I do not think (like Dye) that 19,34-40 was added after 650.

Powers, p. 206-207 :
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The evidence of BNF 328a points to at least one instance in which the consonantal skeleton of the Qurʼân was revised during the process of text redaction. In this instance, the addition of a single consonant transformed the meaning of a verse dealing with inheritance. If BNF 328a was produced in the third quarter of the first century ah — as Déroche has argued — then the
consonantal skeleton and performed reading of the Qurʼân would have remained open and fluid until the end of the first/eighth century. It is easy to imagine that changes like this one would have led to disagreements, caused members of the community to accuse one another of infidelity, brought the community to the verge of civil strife, and justified the destruction of all codices that were not in conformity with what became the canonical text.
[...]
Although a few key members of the early community of believers may have been aware of the textual change discussed above, the rest of the community appears to have been unaware of — or forgotten — the original consonantal skeleton

Of course. Because there was never Mecca/Medina/Companion of the Prophet, etc.
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Reply #3916 - September 09, 2018, 09:20 PM

Walid Saleh's criticism of Powers thesis is simple, but elegant, and possibly convincing at the same time. As to Sinai, I believe he addresses Powers in his two part article on the codification of the Quran.
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Reply #3917 - September 09, 2018, 09:23 PM

But to be honest, I must read Powers's argument.
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Reply #3918 - September 09, 2018, 09:26 PM

But we must wait for Marijn's upcoming article on the very same topic. Until then, we must suspend judgment.
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Reply #3919 - September 09, 2018, 10:49 PM

Quote
Do you see my point?

Not sure... Further clarification would be appreciated.
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Reply #3920 - September 09, 2018, 11:41 PM

I'm sure you can do it!
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Reply #3921 - September 09, 2018, 11:53 PM

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I'm sure you can do it!

They practices ascribed to these Persian Arabs are unfitting since these very same Persian Arabs became Christians already in the sixth century. Some of geographical descriptions alluded to - such as Palm groves - do not fit the geography of Western Arabia.

God I love Guillaume Dye, “Traces of Bilingualism/Multilingualism in the Qurʾānic Arabic,” in Arabic in Context: Celebrating 400 Years of Arabic at Leiden University, ed. Ahmad Al-Jallad (Leiden: Brill, 2017), pp. 337–371.

But I am not sure your description of Quranic Arabic is supported by Dye, since your description is very similar to that of Luxenberg. Note: I agree with Dye.
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Reply #3922 - September 10, 2018, 01:24 AM

Quote from: Altara on September 09, 2018, 06:29 PM

1/My issue with this, is that "Hijazi " does not exist before Islam. It is a word given after Islam to a specific region ; before, nobody knows it.
2/ I do not speak of a "poetic koine" anywhere.
3/ Nobody says that is it Syriac (even Luxenberg...) like nobody says that French is Spanish or Italian.

Good, we are making progress. You have gone from the Arabic script being derived from Syriac (nothing to say for Nabataean) to it being based on Nabataean with Syriac influence. Take it a step further : what is the Syriac influence? I see so far it is just your insistence because Syraic script used by Arabs (no direct evidence anyway), then it must have influenced the emergence of the Arabic script. This is not a valid argument and I am sure you are aware of that. I am not digressing. You are dodging my repeated requests for you to provide a proof that Syriac has influenced the Arabic script emergence. You have not given a single shred of evidence, just one sentence responses that add nothing. If the Syriac influenced Arabic where is the proof in the script?

Who cares about the word 'Hijaz' it is a modern descriptor for a region of west Arabia it matters not when it became used. We can call hijaz whatever you want it still refers to the same area and the Arabic and script of that region will be whatever-the-new-term is Arabic. Gabish? Let's illustrate. Let's be simple = Hijaz is "West". We can say the Quran is completely West Arabic, with obviously loan religious vocabulary from many sources including Syriac (although Van Putten disputes this). The Arabic script evolves gradually from Nabataean in north"west" Arabia. Your argument that nobody knows the word hijaz before Islam is red herring.
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Reply #3923 - September 10, 2018, 01:27 AM

Quote from: Mahgraye on September 09, 2018, 11:53 PM
They practices ascribed to these Persian Arabs are unfitting since these very same Persian Arabs became Christians already in the sixth century. Some of geographical descriptions alluded to - such as Palm groves - do not fit the geography of Western Arabia.

God I love Guillaume Dye, “Traces of Bilingualism/Multilingualism in the Qurʾānic Arabic,” in Arabic in Context: Celebrating 400 Years of Arabic at Leiden University, ed. Ahmad Al-Jallad (Leiden: Brill, 2017), pp. 337–371.

But I am not sure your description of Quranic Arabic is supported by Dye, since your description is very similar to that of Luxenberg. Note: I agree with Dye.

Yes, Dye's description is very reasonable and I think most would can accept that. It is not at all Altara's position based on his postings. I am sympathetic to the Palm groves issue not describing central West Arabia, but this issue is besides the point of the emergence of the Arabic script that predates Quran for more than a century.
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Reply #3924 - September 10, 2018, 02:16 AM

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Yes, Dye's description is very reasonable and I think most would can accept that. It is not at all Altara's position based on his postings.

I agree with you.

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I am sympathetic to the Palm groves issue not describing central West Arabia, but this issue is besides the point of the emergence of the Arabic script that predates Quran for more than a century.

Never understood the issue of the Palm grove.
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Reply #3925 - September 10, 2018, 05:51 AM

hmm I am no scholar of anything but this canaaniteshift post is interesting

Quote from: canaaniteshift on September 09, 2018, 05:19 PM
Altara, peripheral does not mean outside of Roman control..................

As for your incredible statement that Quranic Arabic and Syriac are intertwined so much that you cannot tell one from the other. I am speechless truly. In fact, I am so stunned by this statement that I think I will direct it to Mr Van Putten, the foremost scholar on the language of the Quran for his reaction....................

in view of this Altara's important post
Quote from: Altara on September 09, 2018, 11:42 AM
I consider that Quranic Arabic linguistically was very intermingled with Syriac, so much so that it seems (to me...) very difficult to know which is purely Syriac or Arabic. It could be done sometimes but not for all the words.

Quote from: yeezevee on September 09, 2018, 12:25 PM
Your posts and responses makes lot of sense on the history and origins of Quran dear Altara ., Damn this Arabian oil money along with religious nut cases never allowed scholars to explore real origins of Quran and made billion folks bend their asses up in to the sky and heads in to the sands of Arabia
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http://www.ancientscripts.com/
http://www.learnassyrian.com/aramaic.pdf

helloo canaaniteshift .... I am glad to note that you are directing that Altara's statement to Marijn van Putten but who knows "van Putten may agree with Altara".... we will wait and see and let us keep in mind..... that no one is unquestionable...

It is interesting to note that "Leiden University Centre for the Study of Islam and Society" seem to have similar structure and funding as that of US of A Georgetown University, Department of Arabic and Islamic Studies

But here i am lost in the discussion jungle., the debate somehow shifted from Altara's famous Mecca-madina-zam-zam-Muhammad statement to linguistic analysis of Quran origins...

So dear canaaniteshift , before we go to linguistic origins of Quran , a direct question to you ..

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Do you believe that the present book Quran was originated from Prophet of Islam Muhammad in the deserted areas of present Mecca and Madina?

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #3926 - September 10, 2018, 11:47 AM

I do not see that Van Putten has anything to do with this centre for the study of Islam and Society, which is directed by Petra Sijpesteijn who is earning much money from the gulf Arabs. Van Putten did respond and he scoffed at the idea.

"@PhDniX I have a memeworthy ? for you. In a certain discussion I am having, an individual states this: "I consider that Quranic Arabic linguistically was very intermingled with Syriac, so much so that it seems (to me...) very difficult to know which is purely Syriac or Arabic.̈"

Van Putten: Anyone that manages to call the Arabic of the Quran a mixed language has clearly has no idea what a mixed language looks like. Quranic Arabic is just a form of Arabic with perhaps slightly-more-than-avarage Aramaic loanwords. This makes sense, as a religious text that borrows liberally from both Judaism and Christianity, it would have been a miracle if it had not contained any Aramaic loanwords. "

And do not worry dear yeezeevee, ashhadu an laa ilaaha wa laa tanzeela. 2nd generation atheist of Calvinist extraction. I do not BELIEVE anything I am convinced by good arguments. For me the linguistic arguments for an Arabian origin specifically the oasis towns of West (= Hijaz) Arabia (not deserts) made by what altara calls anglo saxon scholars is most convincing. I am not yet convinced of any connection with a Mohammad, historical or imaginary.
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Reply #3927 - September 10, 2018, 12:40 PM

Canaanite,

1/ Can you name a few of these West Arabian oasis towns where you think the Quran originated?

2/ These towns need to be close enough to the Northern geography that is described in the Quran. Modern scholars seem to agree that "the audience" understood the complex theological message of the Quran (thats why an obscure text is enough, audience was highly schooles in Jewish and Christian theology). I guess the same is then true for the audience's understanding of the geography, they were familiar with it.

3/ (I am an audience sceptic... I think the Quranic text says something about the author, much less about the audience)
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Reply #3928 - September 10, 2018, 12:53 PM

Quote from: canaaniteshift on September 10, 2018, 01:24 AM
Good, we are making progress. You have gone from the Arabic script being derived from Syriac (nothing to say for Nabataean) to it being based on Nabataean with Syriac influence.

1/I've gone from nothing. Could be this or that.
2/You have not still evidenced the contrary.

Quote
Take it a step further : what is the Syriac influence?

I've already said them.

Quote
I see so far it is just your insistence because Syriac script used by Arabs (no direct evidence anyway), then it must have influenced the emergence of the Arabic script. This is not a valid argument

It is a perfectly valid argument. This is not Europe where there was only one script.

Quote
I am not digressing. You are dodging my repeated requests for you to provide a proof that Syriac has influenced the Arabic script emergence.

Yes, I have given no proof, (like you), but I have given arguments that lead to think that your arguments are weak and must not be accepted because they consider only one piece of the issue : technical stuff. I'm afraid that it is not enough to convince anybody, except only those who are already convinced by personal and non scientific reasons.

Quote
You have not given a single shred of evidence, just one sentence responses that add nothing. If the Syriac influenced Arabic where is the proof in the script?

I have given evidences that your arguments, that you present as granted, are not. You did not response to to my objections, and ignoring them because you have nothing to respond. As you have nothing, it is simply logical that I consider that I'm right and that Jallad et al. are wrong, at least, that their methodology is flawed by the precise fact that it does not take into account all the dimensions of the issue.
I'm taking into account all these dimensions. Not them. Because they are not historians, that is the explication.
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Reply #3929 - September 10, 2018, 01:06 PM

Quote from: mundi on September 10, 2018, 12:40 PM
Canaanite,

1/ Can you name a few of these West Arabian oasis towns where you think the Quran originated?

He unfortunately cannot.

Quote
2/ These towns need to be close enough to the Northern geography that is described in the Quran. Modern scholars seem to agree that "the audience" understood the complex theological message of the Quran (thats why an obscure text is enough, audience was highly schooles in Jewish and Christian theology). I guess the same is then true for the audience's understanding of the geography, they were familiar with it.

1/ They need above all to be known as cultural and scriptural centres heavily influenced by Syriac Christianity, when considering the Quranic text. There is nothing like this in the NW peninsula.
Guillaume Dye said it better than me (French):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XELIg_Aycm4&t=248s

Quote
3/ (I am an audience sceptic... I think the Quranic text says something about the author, not about the audience)

Necessarily both. Because what is written must be understandable. Otherwise there's no point in writing for people who don't understand anything.
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Topic: Qur'anic studies today

Mahgraye

Reply #3900 - September 09, 2018, 02:42 PM

Altara

Reply #3901 - September 09, 2018, 03:56 PM

Mahgraye

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Mahgraye

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Mahgraye

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Altara

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Mahgraye

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mundi

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Mahgraye

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mundi

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Mahgraye

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Mahgraye

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Mahgraye

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Mahgraye

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Mahgraye

Reply #3921 - September 09, 2018, 11:53 PM

canaaniteshift

Reply #3922 - September 10, 2018, 01:24 AM

canaaniteshift

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Mahgraye

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yeezevee

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mundi

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