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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4050 - September 14, 2018, 07:40 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on September 13, 2018, 12:50 PM
    That is indeed serious problem in investigating the folks that were responsible for Quran  and early Islam., I have no idea of of how to define a person living these areas all the way  to 7th century ............ 

    (Clicky for piccy!)
    Question is.,    "WERE ALL THE PEOPLE LIVING IN ARABIAN PENINSULA OF THAT TIME IN THAT MAP ....  should we call them as Arabs??

    with best
    yeezevee


    The map  is false. There's no Mecca/Medina routes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4051 - September 14, 2018, 09:49 AM
    Quote from: Altara on September 14, 2018, 07:40 AM
    The map  is false. There's no Mecca/Medina routes.

     Cheesy  here is your pet thesis on Islam

    " No Mecca No Madina in Islam
    No Muhammad No Zam zam in Islam
     Mecca  Madina  Muhammad   Zam zam
    No  no no in Islam "

    Well as we know  

    Madina was No madina ., It was supposed to be  Yathrib
    And we know Muhammad was no Muhammad  he was some one else
    So Mecca was No Mecca , it could have some other name   Altara

    let us sell fools that Zam Zam Water
    Zam Zam Water from Makkah  ماء زمزم
    $99.98 Free Shipping
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4052 - September 14, 2018, 10:13 AM
    Quote
    So Mecca was No Mecca , it could have some other name

       

    Nope as well Wink There is no big city of commerce anywhere in the Western part of the peninsula. Nothing. Nada.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4053 - September 14, 2018, 01:59 PM
    Quote from: zeca on September 12, 2018, 10:48 PM
    In the centuries leading up to the conquests. If there’s any evidence for a change in the make-up of the population in this period that would also be interesting to know.


    There is a change especially in the West. Massive importation of Arabs by the Romans since the middle of the 5 th.c. to opposed to the Persians Arabs of the East and delegate them the limes. You will find confirmation in academia articles.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4054 - September 14, 2018, 02:06 PM
    Yes, that’s interesting. Do you have any idea where they were moving from and to?
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4055 - September 14, 2018, 02:13 PM
    Change in population:

    Importing a modern issue into antiquity now...

    Any evidence of a drop of fertility in the Roman provinces? Looking at contemporary Europe we know that population make up can change very rapidly...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4056 - September 14, 2018, 02:21 PM
    I’ve no idea about fertility but the plague of Justinian could have had an effect.
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4057 - September 14, 2018, 02:23 PM
    Kevin van Bladel - Literatures in Arabian Languages in Late Antiquity

    https://www.academia.edu/37401809/van_Bladel_2018_Literatures_in_Arabian_Languages_in_Late_Antiquity_.pdf
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4058 - September 14, 2018, 03:00 PM
    Quote from: zeca on September 14, 2018, 02:06 PM
    Yes, that’s interesting. Do you have any idea where they were moving from and to?


    From South, it seems there was some immigration movement from Yemen (need to be checked, though)  due to the drying out of  the peninsula, and (marginally!) from the East.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4059 - September 14, 2018, 03:21 PM
    Could the conquests be seen as part of a longer process of Arabicisation of the Near East?
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4060 - September 14, 2018, 05:04 PM
    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1040610435744100352
    Quote
    When did speakers of Arabic start pronouncing ḏāl ذ as د dāl?: Any visitor to cities like Damascus, Beirut, or Cairo immediately notices the absence of this sound in the local vernacular, e.g. Classical Arabic hāḏā is pronounced hāda. Where does this come from and how old?

    Quote
    …What does this mean? Well, a change typical of the modern Arabic vernaculars is attested more than 500 years before the appearance of Islam and the Conquests disproving the common assumption that non-Classical Arabic forms in the modern vernaculars are the result of recent "corruption" to the language. Now what about the hypothesis of Aramaic influence? Macdonald suggests that our author was bilingual and that this change may have been influenced by Nabataean Aramaic. This is entirely possible, but so is the possibility that it is simply an internal development…


    Also: https://mobile.twitter.com/Imed_Adel/status/1040614941563252737
    Quote
    I don't believe Classical Arabic, as we study it in the grammar books, was every a spoken language and therefore cannot be ancestral to any modern vernacular. But we should be careful to which varieties we apply this label. Classical Arabic is a blanket term for the written register of Islamic civ. and it is regulated by the material collected and ranked by Arabic grammarians in their works, starting in the 8th c. CE. Qur'anic Arabic, for example, pre-exists 'Classical Arabic', although it contributes to it. The modern vernaculars descend from dialects of Old Arabic, one or more, pre-existing the formation of Classical Arabic. But they are not direct descendants of any one form of Old Arabic. Overtime they interact, mix, etc., so that many dialects today are a mosaic of Arabics.

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4061 - September 14, 2018, 06:26 PM
    Quote from: zeca on September 14, 2018, 03:21 PM
    Could the conquests be seen as part of a longer process of Arabicisation of the Near East?


    Due to externals factors, yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4062 - September 14, 2018, 11:36 PM
    Sinai, "The Eschatological Kerygma of the Early Qur’an", in: Apocalypticism and Eschatology in Late Antiquity"


    Once again, it is not only the content and conceptual field of the early Qur’an’s eschatological kerygma that is closely aligned with the Syriac homiletic tradition but also some prominent features of its literary form.

    http://www.academia.edu/19225122/_The_Eschatological_Kerygma_of_the_Early_Qur_an_in_Apocalypticism_and_Eschatology_in_Late_Antiquity_Encounters_in_the_Abrahamic_Religions_6th_8th_Centuries_edited_by_Hagit_Amirav_Emmanouela_Grypeou_and_Guy_Stroumsa_Leuven_Peeters_2017_pp._219_266_uncorrected_authors_typescript_
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4063 - September 15, 2018, 07:59 AM
    Altara,

    Quote
    Quote from: zeca on Yesterday at 03:21 PM
    Could the conquests be seen as part of a longer process of Arabicisation of the Near East?


    Due to externals factors, yes.


    Can you be a bit more specific on which external factors you are alluding to?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4064 - September 15, 2018, 08:26 AM
    In the West the Romans have deliberately invited Arabs to settle in Palestine/West Syria (in which they were already present in few places) instead of retain them in the peninsula. They understood (after few fights...) that they could be used 1/ against the incursion of Persians Arabs of Iraq to defend their East limes and 2/ in the Roman army as auxiliaries against the Arabs of Iraq aligned by the Persians. For more details :
    Irfan Shahid :
    Byzantium and the Arabs in the Sixth Century, Volume 2, Part 2, 2010
    Byzantium and the Arabs in the Sixth Century, Volume 2, Part 1, 2002
    Byzantium and the Arabs in the Sixth Century, Volume 1, part 1, 1995
    Byzantium and the Arabs in the Sixth Century, Volume 1, part 2, 1995
    Byzantium and the Arabs in the Fifth Century, 1989
    Byzantium and the Semitic Orient Before the Rise of Islam (Collected Studies Series: No.Cs270), 1988
    Byzantium and the Arabs in the Fourth Century, 1984
    Rome and the Arabs: A Prolegomenon to the Study of Byzantium and the Arabs, 1984

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4065 - September 15, 2018, 08:53 AM
    Quote from: Altara on September 14, 2018, 11:36 PM
    Sinai, "The Eschatological Kerygma of the Early Qur’an", in: Apocalypticism and Eschatology in Late Antiquity"


    Once again, it is not only the content and conceptual field of the early Qur’an’s eschatological kerygma that is closely aligned with the Syriac homiletic tradition but also some prominent features of its literary form.

    http://www.academia.edu/19225122/_The_Eschatological_Kerygma_of_the_Early_Qur_an_in_Apocalypticism_and_Eschatology_in_Late_Antiquity_Encounters_in_the_Abrahamic_Religions_6th_8th_Centuries_edited_by_Hagit_Amirav_Emmanouela_Grypeou_and_Guy_Stroumsa_Leuven_Peeters_2017_pp._219_266_uncorrected_authors_typescript_


    i  casually read through that publication  of Nicolai Sinai  on  The Eschatological Kerygma of the Early Qur’an and I am not really convinced with that method of MVL..Mean verse Length  as a rule of thumb to  assign  a "verse is earlier one or later one " and how to arrange Quran in its chronological order
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4066 - September 15, 2018, 09:30 AM
    I can understand that you are not convinced. I'm waiting  his paper “Inner-Qur’anic Chronology,” forthcoming in The Oxford Handbook of Qur’anic Studies, ed. by Muhammad Abdel Haleem and Mustafa Shah. Oxford: Oxford University Press, where he seems to have work on it. But I'm afraid that he will publish only two pages of it on academia like he did with "Two Types of Inner-Qur’ānic Interpretation".
    Edit : about MVL you can read "Processes of Literary Growth and
    Expansion in Two Medinan Surahs" but again, it's two pages... :
    "That various qurʾanic surahs contain secondary insertions and expansions is a thoroughly traditional notion: pre-modern Islamic scholars already maintained that many surahs revealed during Muhammad’s ‘Meccan’ period (i.e.,surahs promulgated before the emigration to Medina traditionally dated to 622) include later ‘Medinan’ passages and vice versa.1 Such claims, of course, rest on the crucial assumption that we can defensibly make relative chronological judgements about different parts of the qurʾanic corpus, that is, claims of the kind that (most of) surah 37 predates (most of) surah 2.
    Assuming that one subscribes to this premise, as I do,2 how are we to distinguish between earlier and later components of a given surah? Post-qur’anic Islamic literature frequently purports to have pertinent information to offer: on the one hand, reports about the so-called ‘occasions of revelation’ (asbāb al-nuzūl) of particular qurʾanic passages often place these latter in a recognizably Meccan or Medinan setting."
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4067 - September 15, 2018, 09:43 AM
    Verse length:

    Indeed seems weird  (but generally accepted) that "the author"started off with the shortest verses to end up with dragon like verses as we encounter in Surah 2.
    Shows you can prove anything.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4068 - September 15, 2018, 02:22 PM
    Sinai is literally finding interpolation wherever he looks, ha ha.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4069 - September 15, 2018, 02:32 PM
    Quote
    Quote from: Altara on September 15, 2018, 09:30 AM
    I can understand that you are not convinced. I'm waiting  his paper “Inner-Qur’anic Chronology,”.....................

    Quote from: mundi on September 15, 2018, 09:43 AM
    Verse length:

    Indeed seems weird  (but generally accepted) ..................

    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 15, 2018, 02:22 PM
    Sinai is literally finding interpolation wherever he looks, ha ha.


    well what you write about Quran clearly depends upon where you write from and with whom you are interacting when you are writing it ............... Nicolai should read this

    Quote
    The beauty in the longest verse of the Qur’an

    The Qur’an is a miracle in human language. You read. You think. You get enlightened. You start loving your Creator!

    Aayatud-Dayn is the longest verse in the Qur’an.
    This verse addresses the Believers – Yaaa Ayyuhal Lazeena Aamanu – and speaks of legal matters yet in a miraculously understandable language.  This one verse is sufficient proof for any inquisitive mind to submit to the glory of Qur’an being the true Word of Allah.
    The glory and beauty of the Qur’an is that it expounds complicated things in an easy way without compromising on its linguistic miracle. It uses rich vocabulary that baffles the linguists yet remaining profoundly simple to understand.

    This ayah speaks about financial transactions, the rights of the debtor, the approach of the creditor, justice and equity, documentation, witness and evidence, fear of Allah and being conscious of Him.

    The longest aayah in the Qur’an comes in the longest Surah of the Qur’an. Verse No. 282 of Surah al Baqarah:

    The longest aayah in the Qur’an comes in the longest Surah of the Qur’an

    ..... YAP THAT IS A MIRACLE MIRACLE  FOR FAITH HEADS ..

    well read more at that link..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4070 - September 15, 2018, 04:39 PM
    I don’t see myself buying Juan Cole’s book but anyway…

    Juan Cole - Early Arabic Inscriptions and the Life of the Prophet: A new Source for History

    https://www.juancole.com/2018/08/inscriptions-prophet-history.html
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4071 - September 15, 2018, 04:51 PM
    Quote from: zeca on September 15, 2018, 04:39 PM
    I don’t see myself my buying Juan Cole’s book but anyway…

    Juan Cole - Early Arabic Inscriptions and the Life of the Prophet: A new Source for History

    https://www.juancole.com/2018/08/inscriptions-prophet-history.html


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adiGlaJL_Hk

    well when you marry a girl from Lahore  you better talk and write everything GOOD ABOUT ISLAM..   Cheesy
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4072 - September 15, 2018, 06:50 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 15, 2018, 02:22 PM
    Sinai is literally finding interpolation wherever he looks, ha ha.

    Sinai :
    "Pohlmann’s recent plea that such redactional activity must inevitably have constituted a post-prophetic phenomenon is far from conclusive: there would seem to be no a priori reason to rule out the possibility that the scribal revision of existing qurʾanic proclamations could have got under way already while further qurʾanic revelations were still being delivered.30 At the same time, there is equally no a priori reason for ruling out that such editorial activity could have continued in the wake of Muhammad’s death, although the time frame available for such hypothetical post-prophetic editing would appear to come to a close around 650."
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4073 - September 15, 2018, 07:04 PM

    North Arabian Features in the Nabataean Aramaic Inscriptions from Madaʾin Ṣaliḥ: A Contact-Linguistic Analysis

    https://www.academia.edu/37417929/North_Arabian_Features_in_the_Nabataean_Aramaic_Inscriptions_from_Mada%CA%BEin_S_alih_A_Contact-Linguistic_Analysis
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4074 - September 15, 2018, 07:40 PM
    Quote
    "Pohlmann’s recent plea that such redactional activity must inevitably have constituted a post-prophetic phenomenon is far from conclusive: there would seem to be no a priori reason to rule out the possibility that the scribal revision of existing qurʾanic proclamations could have got under way already while further qurʾanic revelations were still being delivered.30 At the same time, there is equally no a priori reason for ruling out that such editorial activity could have continued in the wake of Muhammad’s death, although the time frame available for such hypothetical post-prophetic editing would appear to come to a close around 650."


    Somewhat echoes Neuwirth’s position that there are no post-Muhammadan interpolations. Neuwirth is, however, at least to my understanding, more dogmatic on this issue, whilst Sinai is far more open to the possibility, just as he is now open to the extra-Arabian origins theory as well. Here one sees that Sinai sets the terminus ante quem for the closure of the corpus around the year AD 650.

    Sinai has expounded on all these topics in much greater detail in his latest book. Check it out.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4075 - September 15, 2018, 08:19 PM
    Sinai and audience:

    SInai refers to the understanding by the audience of the Quran. Altara, you mentioned it was a must in those days since books were so valuable.

    How should I see this? Imagine this situation: Surah 2 or another part of the Quran was read out loud to "the public". The public understood.

    Question: What would have been a realistic composition of the public?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4076 - September 15, 2018, 08:20 PM
    Monotheistic
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4077 - September 15, 2018, 09:18 PM
    Quote
    Monotheistic


    The farmers of the Mecca area (sic)? The traders? The slaves? Soldiers?

    We are supposed to believe that these texts were recited by Mohammed to a crowd that understood all these intricacies and wasn't bored to sleep by Surah 2. I am trying to imagine a more precise composition of this crowd than "monotheists".

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4078 - September 15, 2018, 11:54 PM
    Quote from: mundi on September 15, 2018, 08:19 PM
    Sinai and audience:

    SInai refers to the understanding by the audience of the Quran. Altara, you mentioned it was a must in those days since books were so valuable.

    How should I see this? Imagine this situation: Surah 2 or another part of the Quran was read out loud to "the public". The public understood.


     "read out loud to "the public" " Yes. According to the narrative. Do you believe the narrative? I don't.

    Quote
    Question: What would have been a realistic composition of the public?


    Not the one described by the narrative Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4079 - September 15, 2018, 11:59 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 15, 2018, 07:40 PM
    Somewhat echoes Neuwirth’s position that there are no post-Muhammadan interpolations. Neuwirth is, however, at least to my understanding, more dogmatic on this issue, whilst Sinai is far more open to the possibility, just as he is now open to the extra-Arabian origins theory as well. Here one sees that Sinai sets the terminus ante quem for the closure of the corpus around the year AD 650.

    Sinai has expounded on all these topics in much greater detail in his latest book. Check it out.


    Extra-Arabian origins for Sinai? Source?
    Yes 650 : like Dye who considers interpolations around this time.
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