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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4200 - September 21, 2018, 04:51 PM
    yeezevee - I made an account years ago when I was lurking, yes. Lately I've become more interested in early Islam due to posts by zaotar et al in this thread  Smiley

    As for the problem with that verse, it seems there's some missing text.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4201 - September 21, 2018, 06:44 PM
    Quote from: curious-lurker on September 21, 2018, 04:51 PM
    yeezevee - I made an account years ago when I was lurking, yes. Lately I've become more interested in early Islam due to posts by zaotar et al in this thread  Smiley

    glad to see your response dear curious-lurker., yes you are right., zaotar, Zeca and now Altara., mundi and Mahgraye are the folks who indeed are responsible for me  to read through the academic publications on Quran .. other wise I was only reading Quran for myself without any interference from outside..  Indeed reading  views/pubs of other on Quran made me to change my own views on this manual/book of Islam

    Quote
    As for the problem with that verse, it seems there's some missing text.

    Really?? So, what do you think is missing? and what do you think is the problem with the verse??  and what should we add to make it better??

    I read that verse as  ...
    Quote
    41. 41: "Why would any one  who come in contact with Quran disbelieve it? indeed  it is mighty powerful book "


    So if we read the verse like that.. does that make any sense to you??

    Oh my goodness .. look at that mathematical miracle of that verse.. Ha!  41 surah 41 verse.. let me play number game

    what a number., 4141 .....   4+1+4+1 =10  so .. 1+0=1 .. So that should be number one verse in Quran  

    Or it could be   1 X 0= zero...

    Oh well it could also go to Zeeero  dear  lurker.,   and please continue to read/explore Quran...

    with best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4202 - September 21, 2018, 07:02 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 21, 2018, 02:33 PM
    Altara - As you are more familiar with Gallez and his thesis, considering that you are fluent in French, could you please enlighten me whether Gallez opines that the Judeo-Nazarene believed that the Jesus is the Son of God?


    Nope since according to him, they were the "Ebionites".  But as he origins the Judeo-Nazarene movement from another path that what Epiphanius origins the same Ebionites, it is in fact difficult to know very much about those Judeo-Nazarene guys apart the fact that they strongly believe (but like the mere Christians...) to the return of Jesus.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4203 - September 21, 2018, 07:20 PM
    This is very problematic for me. As I once note here, the earliest author to mention the Nazoreans is Epiphanius. In his famous compendium of heresies, Epiphanius writes about the Nazoreans. Now, I recently took a quick look at what Epiphanius actually wrote about the Nazoreans and their supposed beliefs. To my surprise, Epiphanius writes that the Nazoreans believed that Jesus is the Son of God! This is was surprising. Let us just take Gallez's thesis as an example, although his thesis is an extreme version of the Jewish-Christian influence model. My question is as follows: if Nazoreans actually wrote (or at least influenced) the Quran, then how com they - a sect which according to Epiphanius affirmed that Jesus is the Son of God - authored the Quran when the Quran explicitly denies that very doctrine which they supposedly hold? For me, the entire thing about the Nazoreans was that they rejected Pauline Christianity (i.e. the divinity of Jesus, his Sonship, and the Trinity) which conforms with the Quranic christology, and hence they either influenced the Quran, or in the case of Gallez, actually authored the Quran. Taking Epiphanius statement as accurate, then this can hardly be the case. At the very least, the Nazoreans did not author the Quran. This is probably more of an objection to Gallez's thesis more so than the Jewish-Christianity as a whole. For instance, de Blois argues that Nazoreans are the once being targeted in the Quran and not the other way around. Q 5:115 is - for de Blois - an anti-Nazorean polemic and implies that they affirmed the Trinity.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4204 - September 21, 2018, 08:38 PM
    Nazareans and Gallez:

    Does it really matter if the group was mentioned by Ephiphanus or not, what exactly they believed?

    Main point I retain from Gallez is that a judeo-Christian group (or something like it) influenced the numerous Arabs to wage a war for them. I think that is a realistic theory and we can even find contemporary examples how a smaller group uses ideology to get a larger group to do its bidding. Something of all times, would explain a lot.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4205 - September 21, 2018, 09:23 PM
    Quote
    My question is as follows: if Nazoreans actually wrote (or at least influenced) the Quran, then how com they - a sect which according to Epiphanius affirmed that Jesus is the Son of God - authored the Quran when the Quran explicitly denies that very doctrine which they supposedly hold?


    Haha!  As I said if Gallez named this guys Judeo-Nazarene, he considers them as Ebionites, therefore considering Jesus as a mere man. Then, what to do of the Nazoreans which says that Jesus is the son of God, of Epiphanius? Gallez does not really respond as he is firmly installed in the construction of his "Messianic" Judeo-Nazarene guys identified to the Ebionites that he call Judeo-Nazarene.
    My advice is to reread Epiphanius about them and the Nazoreans.
    I do not hold for coherent (as I already said may times...) the Gallez thesis because of all this stuff.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4206 - September 21, 2018, 10:18 PM
    Oh! You are right! He calls them judéonazaréene. Never payed attention to this before. Thanks. So, going by what you wrote, Gallez added the clause judéo- in order to bereft the term nazaréene from their belief of the Divine of Sonship. Got it. His starting point is what he calls Essene-ism. As for the view Epiphanius ascribes to the Nazoreans, do you disagree with me on that? You did write that I should re-read Epiphanius. Lastly, you are right, there several cogent reasons for rejecting the Jewish-Christian hypothesis in general, and Gallez's Judeo-Nazarene's, an extreme version of the hypotheses, in particular. Guillaume Dye has written the best rebuttal of the model to date. And you yourself mentioned at least two very interesting reasons as to why one should reject it. One of them was a verse in Q 9 that ascribes the naṣārā the belief of taking Jesus as the Son of God. Ironically, and assuming (for arguments sake) that the term naṣārā refers to a Nazorean Jewish-Christian sect, then it would fit perfectly with what Epiphanius wrote about them, ha ha. Yet another peculiarity is highlighted by Petri Luomanen, and that is that Epiphanius is the only author describing a heretical Jewish-Christian group called the Nazoreans, whilst none of his predecessors do so. Instead, his predecessors only talk about Ebionites. This is despite that Epiphanius dates the origin of the Nazoreans to the first century.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4207 - September 21, 2018, 10:40 PM
    You will learn French with this :

    https://www.amazon.com/disciples-juifs-J%C3%A9sus-si%C3%A8cle-Mahomet-ebook/dp/B01N4S3QQ8/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1537569476&sr=8-2&keywords=dominique+bernard
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4208 - September 21, 2018, 10:45 PM
    Probably would learn more about Ebionites and their place within Jewish-Christianity and subsequently Islam than I would learn French, ha ha.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4209 - September 21, 2018, 10:51 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on September 21, 2018, 06:44 PM
    glad to see your response dear curious-lurker., yes you are right., zaotar, Zeca and now Altara., mundi and Mahgraye are the folks who indeed are responsible for me  to read through the academic publications on Quran .. other wise I was only reading Quran for myself without any interference from outside..  Indeed reading  views/pubs of other on Quran made me to change my own views on this manual/book of Islam
    Really?? So, what do you think is missing? and what do you think is the problem with the verse??  and what should we add to make it better??

    I read that verse as  ...
    So if we read the verse like that.. does that make any sense to you??

    Oh my goodness .. look at that mathematical miracle of that verse.. Ha!  41 surah 41 verse.. let me play number game

    what a number., 4141 .....   4+1+4+1 =10  so .. 1+0=1 .. So that should be number one verse in Quran  

    Or it could be   1 X 0= zero...

    Oh well it could also go to Zeeero  dear  lurker.,   and please continue to read/explore Quran...

    with best wishes
    yeezevee


    Thanks for the reply yeezevee.

    The problem with your reading is that it’s not in the Quranic text. The sentence is incomplete. The translations add what they think should be there between the brackets, they’re filling in the blank with their own idea. We don’t know what the verse was supposed to say. Maybe it contained another hellfire reference or something. We don’t know.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4210 - September 22, 2018, 02:35 PM
    curious-lurker  saying something basic and important ..
    Quote from: curious-lurker on September 21, 2018, 10:51 PM
    ............................The problem with your reading is that it’s not in the Quranic text. The sentence is incomplete. The translations add what they think should be there between the brackets, they’re filling in the blank with their own idea.

    well as you know Quran translation is a open book and we have literally 50 English translations available for us.  let us take that verse and read it carefully and and MAKE IT BETTER  
    Quote
    We don’t know what the verse was supposed to say. Maybe it contained another hellfire reference or something. We don’t know.....

    why worry about that?? the goal is making it better .. better for everyone dear curious-lurker.,  So as far as I am concerned., I read Quran as "book of its time with some good saying ...bad sayings ..confused sayings   and some sonnets/songs and some old stories from faiths that were there before Islam".  I do not read Quran   AS WORD OF ALLAH/GOD  ah ha woo whooo.. In fact I don't consider any book any sayings and any religion, any faith  is from allah/god.,  

    Anyways for now   let me describe to you how to read Quran and how to understand that verse in another folder .. So go here ..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4211 - September 23, 2018, 12:24 AM
    The point is that it doesn’t tell us what happens. Reading the whole surah doesn’t change anything. The verse is similar to saying something:

    Yeezevee is a...And indeed it is a mighty Book.

    Reading the surrounding verses won’t tell us the missing content.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4212 - September 23, 2018, 03:57 AM
    Quote from: curious-lurker on September 23, 2018, 12:24 AM
    The point is that it doesn’t tell us what happens. Reading the whole surah doesn’t change anything. The verse is similar to saying something:

    Quote
    Yeezevee is a DICK HEAD ...And indeed it is a mighty Book.

    Reading the surrounding verses won’t tell us the missing content.

     Cheesy
     
    well  Allah left a blank place for believers  to fill it up., So whatever missing let us fill it up dear lurker...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4213 - September 23, 2018, 02:57 PM
    Can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic, but no, that explanation doesn’t work.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4214 - September 23, 2018, 03:17 PM
    Quote from: curious-lurker on September 23, 2018, 02:57 PM
    Can’t tell if you’re being sarcastic, but no, that explanation doesn’t work.

     Cheesy   well....  I am trying my best to get you reading Quran and find the answers for such missing content

    hello  curious-lurker  ..please go and read this post .. and it is about the point you raised on that missing content of that  verse ..

    I am just curious here ., did you find that verse has missing content by reading "English version of Quran" or "Arabic version of Quran"?


    with best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4215 - September 23, 2018, 03:55 PM
    It’s missing content in Arabic.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4216 - September 23, 2018, 04:26 PM
    Quote from: curious-lurker on September 23, 2018, 03:55 PM
    It’s missing content in Arabic.

    So you are telling me indirectly that you can read Arabic text  .. did I get that right dear curious-lurker??

    I wonder whether you read earlier manuscripts of Quran before it was made in to a book?
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4217 - September 23, 2018, 08:04 PM
    No, I have a very rudimentary knowledge of Arabic. I rely on the corpus quran website for analysis for the most part.

    I can’t read manuscripts, so I was hoping to see what scholars have said or say about the incomplete sentence fragment.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4218 - September 23, 2018, 08:27 PM
    Quote from: curious-lurker on September 23, 2018, 08:04 PM
    .............. I rely on the corpus quran website for analysis ..................

    Oh I see.,  didn't you ask the same question to that guy?? at his message board

    thanks for that info.
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4219 - September 24, 2018, 09:39 AM
    Hoyland -Seeing Islam as Others Saw It
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne39ZGzhujQ
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4220 - September 24, 2018, 10:45 AM
    Altara, thank you for the Hoyland video!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4221 - September 24, 2018, 12:44 PM
    Quote from: Altara on September 24, 2018, 09:39 AM
    Hoyland -Seeing Islam as Others Saw It
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne39ZGzhujQ


    Hoyland in Holy Land

    That is a very important one and "it teaches you  how to be politically correct and walk on a fine line"  in public on a difficult stage...........
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4222 - September 24, 2018, 02:47 PM
    Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on September 24, 2018, 10:45 AM
    Altara, thank you for the Hoyland video!

     Afro
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4223 - September 24, 2018, 07:37 PM
    Could someone recommend reading on the arguments for why Qur'anic Arabic is or is not a koine? Whatis meant by Quranic being or not being koine?
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4224 - September 24, 2018, 07:52 PM
    Quote from: Altara on September 19, 2018, 09:55 PM
    It is in line with nothing : these people never affirms anything that match the narrative : "prophet", Mecca, Medina, Zem-Zem. None documents they produces attest this narrative. There is nothing. Nada. End of story.


    I don't know how some people, scholars, can still believe in the muslim narrative regarding Mecca after reading this : Jacob of Edessa

    The Jews who live in Egypt, as likewise Mahgraye there, as I saw with my own eyes and will now set out for you, prayed to the east, and still do, both people - the Jews towards Jerusalem, and the Mahgraye towards the Kʿabah (K‘bt'). And those Jews who are in the south of Jerusalem pray to the north; and those in Babylonia and nhrt' and bwst' pray to the west. And also the Mahgraye who are there pray to the west, towards the Ka‘ba; and those who are to the south of the Ka‘ba pray to the north, towards the place. So from all this it is clear that it is not to the south that the Jews and Mahgraye here in the regions of Syria pray, but towards Jerusalem or Kʿabah, the patriarchial places of their races.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4225 - September 24, 2018, 07:59 PM
    Does Jacob of Edessa's testimony not attest the existence of the Kaba? Does this not mean that Mecca was in another place, rather than not existing at all? Besides, I allude to Edessa's testimony in my response to you.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4226 - September 24, 2018, 08:01 PM
    Altara's comment, which you quote, did not really respond to me in any meaningful way. He brought up Mecca etc. when my comment had nothing to do with Mecca at all.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4227 - September 24, 2018, 08:19 PM
    No one has ever denied the existence of a kaaba. It doesn't mean that it was the kaaba of the muslim narrative.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4228 - September 24, 2018, 08:20 PM
    Quote
    I don't know how some people, scholars, can still believe in the muslim narrative regarding Mecca after reading this : Jacob of Edessa


    Someone could ask Sean Anthony about that... (yawn)...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4229 - September 24, 2018, 08:25 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 24, 2018, 08:01 PM
    Altara's comment, which you quote, did not really respond to me in any meaningful way. He brought up Mecca etc. when my comment had nothing to do with Mecca at all.


    I brought up that your affirmations of these guys being Companions/Mecca/Zem-Zem/Kaba leaves no traces (at all) of what you say they are. I conclude logically that they are not (at all) related to Companions/Mecca/Zem-Zem/Kaba.
    I say, I'm the king of England : who will believe me as I have nothing to validate it? Nobody...
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