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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4320 - September 27, 2018, 10:53 AM
    It seems that Marc S's comment was in line with I initially wrote. All this back and forth in vain. Ibn al-Zubayr was not a Jew. He was from Iraq (or Mecca). Not sure were this Jew stuff came from.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4321 - September 27, 2018, 11:38 AM
    Quote from: mundi on September 27, 2018, 10:24 AM

    Interesting this! I know very little of this part of history. Looked up on Wikipedia and the description is between Christian Arabs and Muslim Arabs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Ullais

    Do you have a source you can recommend with a hisotrical critical account of events?



    You had christian arabs siding with sassanian forces but this is considered as part of the muslim/sassanian wars and muslim tradition places it in 633 ; you should read this book and the part dedicated to the  chronology of arab/sassanian wars ; the author demonstrates that this conflic started when Muhammad was still alive and not after his death as muslim tradition is telling us.

    https://www.amazon.fr/Decline-Fall-Sasanian-Empire-Sasanian-Parthian/dp/1784537470
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4322 - September 27, 2018, 11:46 AM
    Thanks Marc!

    Quote
    You had christian arabs siding with sassanian forces but this is considered as part of the muslim/sassanian wars and muslim tradition places it in 633


    1/And the Jews? I thought they were a very influential force in the Sasanian empire , any mention of their position in the conflict?

    2/ Mohammed still alive... just as he appeared to be alive longer than tradition says in the West (cfr Shoemaker)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4323 - September 27, 2018, 11:56 AM
    Quote from: mundi on September 27, 2018, 06:45 AM
    1/And the Jews? I thought they were a very influential force in the Sasanian empire , any mention of their position in the conflict?


    No mention of the Jews to my knowledge.

    Quote
    2/ Mohammed still alive... just as he appeared to be alive longer than tradition says in the West (cfr Shoemaker)


    This battle is placed by muslim writings in 633 but it seems it in fact happened in 628, and in 628 Muhammad was alive and still fighting for Mecca/Medina as per muslim traditions.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4324 - September 27, 2018, 12:02 PM
     
    Quote from: Marc S on September 27, 2018, 11:38 AM
    You had christian arabs siding with sassanian forces but this is considered as part of the muslim/sassanian wars and muslim tradition places it in 633 ; you should read this book and the part dedicated to the  chronology of arab/sassanian wars ; the author demonstrates that this conflic started when Muhammad was still alive and not after his death as muslim tradition is telling us.

    https://www.amazon.fr/Decline-Fall-Sasanian-Empire-Sasanian-Parthian/dp/1784537470

      Which Muhammad Marc S??..  by that times there were many Muhammads  that came out of UNKNOWN PLACES .,  You seem to know/read/researched  more of that PERSIAN STORIES OF ISLAM

    And did you carefully read that 500 pages or so Miss Parvaneh Pourshariati book??

     

    otherwise please click that picture and download it ..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4325 - September 27, 2018, 12:12 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on September 27, 2018, 10:03 AM
    Al Tabari, Al Baladuri, Al Buk_Hari, to name a few, were all from Persia.

    Well  you know that.,  those  baris, ., duris, .,  Buck_Haris...of Persia ARE NOTHING TO DO WITH QURAN and Quranic Muhammad

    Quote
    Not sure what you mean by that. I am not trying to confuse anyone.

    well those Muslim folks who know very little about origin of Quran and origin of that "Muhammad"  .. reading your posts and reading your links like that F.E. Peters ..Haj.. stories
    Quote from: Marc S on September 24, 2018, 09:56 PM
    ............. (The Hajj : The Muslim Pilgrimage to Mecca and the Holy Places , F.E. Peters). ........

    will get confused  and they get reinforced with traditional Islamic stories without questioning them..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4326 - September 27, 2018, 12:29 PM
    mundi question and Marc S  answers
    Quote from: Marc S  answers on September 27, 2018, 11:56 AM
    Quote
    Quote from: mundi on Today at 06:45 AM
    1/And the Jews? I thought they were a very influential force in the Sasanian empire , any mention of their position in the conflict?


    No mention of the Jews to my knowledge.

    JUDEO-PERSIAN COMMUNITIES . PARTHIAN AND SASANIAN PERIODS
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4327 - September 27, 2018, 12:38 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on September 27, 2018, 02:17 AM
    how about these guys  Ibn Falaquera...  Ibn Gabirol.. Ibn Kammuna..  Abraham ibn Daud..  Abraham Ibn Ezra??

    Were they Muslims Or Jews??   i would not be surprised   if some one proves your "Ibn_"
      your Ibn al-Zubayr Caliph was a Jewish guy..

    yeezevee says something about  "Ibn al-Zubayr Caliph"  and Marc-S questions

    Quote from: Marc S on September 27, 2018, 10:00 AM
    How do you know that ?

    well you know many Jewish or  Christo-Jewish folks lived in so-called Arab lands of that time .. All the way as  Jewish Berbers of Morocco to  Jewish Persians of Persia/Iran., And In the middle   you have present Egypt, Arabia , Iraq, Jordan lands Arab Jews..with some of of these Jewish folks   mother tongue being Arabic ... Either they named themselves  as "Ibns" or history named them as "Ibns"

    So ended up many many names like
    Quote
    ....Ibn Falaquera...  Ibn Gabirol.. Ibn Kammuna..  Abraham ibn Daud..  Abraham Ibn Ezra

     who were actually Jewish folks dear Mark_s  ...

    CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4328 - September 27, 2018, 12:39 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on September 27, 2018, 11:38 AM
    You had christian arabs siding with sassanian forces


    There is no contemporary sources about this. It is the Muslim narrative who say that.

     
    Quote
    you should read this book and the part dedicated to the  chronology of arab/sassanian wars ; the author demonstrates that this conflic started when Muhammad was still alive and not after his death as muslim tradition is telling us.


    It is even before 628 that the war has begun between Iraqi Persian Arabs and Sassanians. As Pourshariati is not a specialist of Early Islam, but of the Sassanians, she did not know that.

    https://www.amazon.fr/Decline-Fall-Sasanian-Empire-Sasanian-Parthian/dp/1784537470
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4329 - September 27, 2018, 12:43 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on September 27, 2018, 11:56 AM

    This battle is placed by muslim writings in 633 but it seems it in fact happened in 628, and in 628 Muhammad was alive and still fighting for Mecca/Medina as per Muslim traditions.


    Therefore the Muslim traditions say nonsense. Do you have an explication? Is this a plot?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4330 - September 27, 2018, 12:50 PM
    Quote from: Altara on September 27, 2018, 12:43 PM
    Therefore the Muslim traditions say nonsense. Do you have an explication? Is this a plot?

    The Plot of many western folks who question Islam is take those Persian Hadith JUNK STORIES of years 800-900 AD.,   and write mores silly stories on web/you tube....  as STORY OF MUHAMMAD   AND HE WAS CRIMINAL

     who question Islam....

    that was stupid of me .,     no no  that is wrong .,  NOT question .. read it as "who Insults Islam" and so Muslims " who follow some Islam
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4331 - September 27, 2018, 12:52 PM
    In this Twitter thread Marijin Van Putten comments on what Robert Hoyland writes on page 124 in his article.

    https://twitter.com/shahanSean/status/932083692419342336

    " "Firstly, the title only appears on coins in southwest Iran,"

    And it appears on hundreds of papyri in Egypt, which I'm sure Hoyland is aware of. Not quite sure what point he is trying to make with that. Are coins different because they are more outwardly addressed?"


    I guess it is the title "Commander of the believers" Putten comments on.  Is there a disagreement on when and where this title is used for the first time about Muhammad?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4332 - September 27, 2018, 12:59 PM
    What title?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4333 - September 27, 2018, 01:24 PM
    Maybe I am mixing it all up, but I guess this is what Putten is commenting about:

    "The Conquerors as Subjects of the “Commander of the Believers”
    Moving a little later in time, we encounter the term “believers” in the context of political
    ideology. We have no texts from the time of the four Medinan caliphs (632-60) that tell us
    how they conceptualized their rule,48 but the fifth caliph, Muʿāwiya (661-80), styles himself
    as “commander of the believers” on five coins minted at Darābjird in southwest Iran in the
    year 43/663-64 and on three building inscriptions.49 This is written in Persian on the coins
    (amyr y wrwyšnykʾn) and in Greek (amira almoumenin) and Arabic (amīr al-muʾminīn) on
    the inscriptions. There are also two papyri which are dated according to the “dispensation of
    the believers”/qaḑāʾ al-muʾminīn, presumably also relating to the way that Muʿāwiya chose
    to portray the nature of his rule.50 "

    Page 124 in the article.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4334 - September 27, 2018, 01:27 PM
    I see now that this is not about Muhammad. Sorry, but I misunderstood Puttens first comment.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4335 - September 27, 2018, 01:46 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on September 27, 2018, 12:50 PM
    The Plot of many western folks who question Islam is take those Persian Hadith JUNK STORIES of years 800-900 AD.,   and write mores silly stories on web/you tube....  as STORY OF MUHAMMAD


    They "believe" the story because if they do not believe it, then, where come from the Quranic texts? They have no other choice to be Muslims (at least for the part of the story). In this sense, they are all Muslims : Anthony, van Putten, etc.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4336 - September 27, 2018, 03:48 PM
    Hoyland

    http://islamichistorycommons.org/mem/wp-content/uploads/sites/55/2017/11/UW-25-Hoyland.pdf

    In footnote 48 he raises doubts on the authenticity of an Omar Al Khattab inscription published by Imbert...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4337 - September 27, 2018, 04:46 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on September 27, 2018, 12:02 PM
       Which Muhammad Marc S??..  by that times there were many Muhammads  that came out of UNKNOWN PLACES .,  You seem to know/read/researched  more of that PERSIAN STORIES OF ISLAM


    The answer is in my sentence, the Muhammad of the muslim tradition.

    Quote
    And did you carefully read that 500 pages or so Miss Parvaneh Pourshariati book??


    Yes I read it but thanks for the link.

    Quote
    JUDEO-PERSIAN COMMUNITIES . PARTHIAN AND SASANIAN PERIODS


    I know you had Jews living there but they don't seem to have been involved in the arab/sassanian war ; I read your link quickly and I didn't see anything that might suggest they were military involved. What is what you were suggesting (military involvment ) ?


    Quote
    So ended up many many names like

    ....Ibn Falaquera...  Ibn Gabirol.. Ibn Kammuna..  Abraham ibn Daud..  Abraham Ibn Ezra

     who were actually Jewish folks dear Mark_s  ...

    CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG



    I cannot say that this is true as a general rule for all people called ibn, and I don't think you can prove it neither. But then you are saying that Jews were military involved in that conflict ? Correct ?



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4338 - September 27, 2018, 04:59 PM
    Quote from: Altara on September 27, 2018, 12:39 PM
    There is no contemporary sources about this. It is the Muslim narrative who say that.


    Arab sources have been found to be quite reliable by Pourshariati in terms of events and context. It doesn't mean this is wrong and requires further research.


    Quote
    It is even before 628 that the war has begun between Iraqi Persian Arabs and Sassanians. As Pourshariati is not a specialist of Early Islam, but of the Sassanians, she did not know that.


    You will need to find sources that draw a link between the assassination of  al-Nu'man III ibn al-Mundhir and arab/sassanian clashes. Do you have them ?

    Quote
    Therefore the Muslim traditions say nonsense. Do you have an explication? Is this a plot?


    Pourshariati said recently on academia that she knows why the chronology was altered. I asked via private message what her theory is but she didn't want to disclose it as she is writing a book about it, so we will have to wait a couple of years to know about her assumptions.

    It was obviously altered in order to present a story of muslim invasion that links events in the east with the ones in the west and in the Hidjaz and Yemen as ONE STORY and portray islam as THE religion while Islam has nothing to do with all those conquests.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4339 - September 27, 2018, 05:55 PM
    Quote
    requires further research.


    That Pourshariati did not do as she's not interested in it.

    Quote
    You will need to find sources that draw a link between the assassination of  al-Nu'man III ibn al-Mundhir and arab/sassanian clashes. Do you have them ?


    It is because you do not read the sources carefully Marc. The Muslim source did not try to make forget to people (this  would not have work) Dhu Qar or to islamized it (too much), whereas it had nothing to do with Mecca/Medina/Zem -Zem and describe what? The war between Iraqi Persian Arabs and Sassanians, well before 628.

    Quote
    Pourshariati said recently on academia that she knows why the chronology was altered.

    I think because the guy who did it saw that it did not corresponds to what he has been taught, i.e, the traditional view of the story of Muhammad. I do not think (at all) to a plot or something like that.  The guy was of good faith when he altered the dates.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4340 - September 27, 2018, 07:53 PM
    Pourshariati is going to publish a lot more on these topics in the future. She has made that very clear. Her next publication will be about - if I remember correctly - the conquest in Syria or something to that effect.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4341 - September 27, 2018, 08:11 PM
    Quote
    It is because you do not read the sources carefully Marc. The Muslim source did not try to make forget to people (this  would not have work) Dhu Qar or to islamized it (too much), whereas it had nothing to do with Mecca/Medina/Zem -Zem and describe what? The war between Iraqi Persian Arabs and Sassanians, well before 628.



    I know you think the battle of Dhu Qar did happen in 622 and stand for the beginning of the arab-sassanian war but, even if that date was right (tradition put it 10 years sooner at best), which battles did happen between 622 and 628, and which sources do back this up ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4342 - September 27, 2018, 08:27 PM
    Pourshariati and the Jews:

    How can the Jews not play a role in the Sassanian-muslim Arab wars? They played a major role in 614 taking Jerusalem together with the Persians. Should we accept that the Jews just stood back and looked on in this conflict?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4343 - September 27, 2018, 10:48 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on September 27, 2018, 08:11 PM
    I know you think the battle of Dhu Qar did happen in 622 and stand for the beginning of the arab-sassanian war


    It is possible that I gave this impression but it is not what I think. I consider Dhu Qar as just an event of this war.  Not the beginning.

    Quote
    but, even if that date was right (tradition put it 10 years sooner at best), which battles did happen between 622 and 628, and which sources do back this up ?


    None source yes. However,  I still do not see why Muslims narrators would have invented it as they pretend that it is the Mecca/ Kaba frame which is the trigger of the conquest. If you have any ideas...
     This victory was so important to Arabs that it has to be integrated necessarily one way or another into the Muslim narrative  because it was not really possible to not talk about it or to make it forgotten. They cannot escape to it. That is what I think.
    Muslims believed that an Arab prophet in Mecca/ Kaba existed who was responsible of the Quranic texts and they knew that Iraqi people were talking of a great battle against the Persians outside this Mecca/ Kaba frame which was supposed to have been the (only)  trigger of the war against them.
    As they did not want that this event be outside  the Mecca/ Kaba frame and the (formidable, marvellous, great, etc) Prophet not be implied one way or another,  they integrated it in the narrative.
    In doing so, they could not  have suspected that integrating this battle in their narrative will give an indication for those (like me) who will contest the Mecca/ Kaba frame they give (because they believed in it as "historical", since it explains the existence of the Quranic texts) of the conquest.
    That is my reflection. As usual, I'm open to any refutation...
    About the beginning of the war, reread (carefully, each word counts) the sources.





  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4344 - September 27, 2018, 10:52 PM
    Quote from: mundi on September 27, 2018, 08:27 PM
    Pourshariati and the Jews:

    How can the Jews not play a role in the Sassanian-muslim Arab wars? They played a major role in 614 taking Jerusalem together with the Persians. Should we accept that the Jews just stood back and looked on in this conflict?


    mundi, you respond yourself to your question. And you do not realize it! Exceptional!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4345 - September 28, 2018, 01:22 AM
    Quote
    Le Coran a emprunté à l'hébreu (et au syriaque) de très très nombreux mots... Mon préféré, c'est la "Géhenne", cette vallée de Jérusalem (Guei Hinnom) qui est devenue petit à petit symbole d'idolâtrie, puis transformée en dépotoir pestilentiel (on y jetait les résidus des sacrifices au Temple), au point de devenir une métaphore des Enfers et même de l'enfer chez les Juifs. Ce mot est mystérieusement apparu dans la culture "arabe" et dans le Coran, avec le même sens d'enfer, comme si les rédacteurs du Coran avaient été en contact avec cette culture juive tardive. A moins qu'il ne s'agisse d'une facétie du Dieu musulman qui parle dans le Coran.

    Faut-il y voir une des raisons qui ont fait de Jérusalem une ville sainte de l'islam?


    Does this relate to what Altra wrote about the Kaʿbah being in Jerusalem? Altara, do you believe that?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4346 - September 28, 2018, 05:57 AM
    https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1045458897300062208
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4347 - September 28, 2018, 06:40 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 28, 2018, 01:22 AM
    Does this relate to what Altra wrote about the Kaʿbah being in Jerusalem? Altara, do you believe that?



    Dear Mahgraye,
    https://www.deepl.com/translator    Afro
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4348 - September 28, 2018, 12:07 PM
    مصحف عثمان» بدار الكتب المصرية: التاريخ والأصول«
    https://quranmss.files.wordpress.com/2018/09/darelkutub_quran.pdf
    Quote
    لقرون طويلة، ظل هذا المصحف الضخم – الذي عُرف لاحقاً باسم «مصحف عثمان» – محفوظاً في جامع عمرو بن العاص بفسطاط مصر، يقرأ فيه عامة المسلمين ويُـتبَرَك بمسه والدعاء عنده طلباً للأجر وحصول البركة، إلى أن نُقل إلى الكتبخانة الخديوية أواخر القرن التاسع عشر. وقبل ذلك بعدة عقود،كان بعض المستشرقين والرحالة الفرنسيين والألمان قد استحوذوا على عددٍ من أوراقه التي استقرت أخيراً في مكتبات أوربية عامي 1810 و1833. تقدم هذه الورقة عرضاً، مركزاً، لأصول وتاريخ هذ المصحف؛ القطع المتناثرة منه وسياق وصولها إلى المكبتات الأوربية؛ مع التطرق للوصف الكوديكولوجي وآراء الباحثين بشأن زمن كتابته.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4349 - September 28, 2018, 12:20 PM
    Dear Altara - I know what the text said, haha. The text emphasizes the importance of Jerusalem and the Quran's familiarity with Jewish tradition, and so I thought that I might strengthen your claim, since the early Muslim's seem to have had Jerusalem as key target-
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