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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

 (Read 1498618 times)
  • Previous page 1 ... 145 146 147148 149 ... 370 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4380 - September 29, 2018, 10:18 PM
    Everyone in the thread was polite and scholarly.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4381 - September 30, 2018, 02:32 AM
    Altara - are the mušrikūn mentioned in the Quran pagans? Hawting and Crone argue that they were Bible-inspired monotheists and not actual pagans. In other words, are the kuffār and mušrikūn Jews and Christians?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4382 - September 30, 2018, 03:23 AM
    Why can’t it be both Abrahamic monotheists and pagans? Isn’t that the usual exegesis?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4383 - September 30, 2018, 03:25 AM
    The usual exegesis is that they were polytheists, not monotheists. But to be honest, the tradition also says that the pagans believed in one God (Allah), the creator, but merely took the idols as intercessors
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4384 - September 30, 2018, 03:33 AM
    Hmm. The Qur’an also says that the kafirun don’t worship Allah, and that Muslims should not insult their Gods lest they insult Allah back. Why would the pagans insult Allah if He’s the Chief God of their pantheon?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4385 - September 30, 2018, 03:41 AM
    I am here referring specifically to the term mušrikūn, what the commentators understood as pagans. Kuffar could be a general term and thus the verse makes sense.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4386 - September 30, 2018, 07:06 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 30, 2018, 02:32 AM
    Altara - are the mušrikūn mentioned in the Quran pagans? Hawting and Crone argue that they were Bible-inspired monotheists and not actual pagans. In other words, are the kuffār and mušrikūn Jews and Christians?


    The question is : if the mušrikūn and kuffār mentioned in the Quran are Jews and Christians why the Quran does not name them Jews and Christians?
    What you think?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4387 - September 30, 2018, 07:10 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 29, 2018, 10:18 PM
    Everyone in the thread was polite and scholarly.


    Cobb is obliged to say :"Honest question" Hahaha! Why that? This question can not be an "honest" one? Why? (Hahaha!)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4388 - September 30, 2018, 08:52 AM
    He is not obliged. He said it for the simple reason that there are a ton of polemicists out there that paint up conspiracies and impugn the character of other scholars. For instance, every inscription that is not in line with their own preferred hypothesis is a Saud forgery to cover up Islam's true origins. This is unfortunately a fact. The scholars in the threas have answered these types of questions on several occasions, as I have asked about myself, which resulted in a long discussion.

    Not sure why the Quran says kuffar and mushrikun. Maybe rethoric. The Quran is ambiguous. I mean, the Quran does not say Jesus in Q 97 and Holy Spirit in 5:116 either. That the kuffār and mušrikūn Jews and Christians is based on the research of Hawting.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4389 - September 30, 2018, 09:01 AM
    Am I correct in assuming that you think the mushrikun are pagans?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4390 - September 30, 2018, 09:35 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 30, 2018, 08:52 AM
    He is not obliged.


    He is.
    Quote
    He said it for the simple reason that there are a ton of polemicists

     

    That is why he is :

    Quote
    out there that paint up conspiracies and impugn the character of other scholars.


    Kerr is a polemicist?
    This situation is precisely because scholars are not at all prudent in their assertions because they do what their "scholar" statute must not allow : they believe in the narrative that they know (now...)  not scientifically proved. (Mecca/Medina/Kaba...)
    And they whine.

    Quote
    For instance, every inscription that is not in line with their own preferred hypothesis is a Saud forgery to cover up Islam's true origins. This is unfortunately a fact.


    Because of the behaviour of scholars, nothing else. Those are trapped, as their universities are founded by the Gulf.

    Quote
    The scholars in the threas have answered these types of questions on several occasions, as I have asked about myself, which resulted in a long discussion.


    Ok. They are incapable to discern what are forgeries or not ; the truth lies here... but for the aforementioned reasons, they cannot tell...


    Quote
    Not sure why the Quran says kuffar and mushrikun. Maybe rhetoric.

    What rhetoric?

    Quote
    The Quran is ambiguous.


    Why he would be ambiguous?


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4391 - September 30, 2018, 09:47 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 30, 2018, 09:01 AM
    Am I correct in assuming that you think the mushrikun are pagans?


    Instead of assuming what I think (or not) you should assuming what the Quran think in posing question like :  if the mušrikūn and kuffār mentioned in the Quran are Jews and Christians why the Quran does not name them Jews and Christians?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4392 - September 30, 2018, 09:49 AM
    Gross, Luxenberg are all polemicists. Btw: i do not dismiss Kerr at all.

    Do you think these inscriptions are not genuine.

    Okay. But what about my question? Who are the mushrikun in your opiniom.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4393 - September 30, 2018, 09:50 AM
    I don't know. If Q 97 is about the Nativity why does the Quran say "hu" and not Jesus. Not sure.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4394 - September 30, 2018, 10:20 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on September 30, 2018, 09:49 AM
    Gross, Luxenberg are all polemicists.


    Luxenberg is not.

    Quote
    Btw: i do not dismiss Kerr at all.


    Yet about the inscriptions he seems to contest...(in German, he is prudent... Wink )

    Quote
    Do you think these inscriptions are not genuine.


    What I think is : I do not know.  What I ascertain is that they are incapable to discern what are forgeries or not ; the truth lies here... but for the aforementioned reasons, they cannot tell...
    Note that a guy like Dye never intervenes in this topic. He knows very well that it is trapped for the aforementioned reasons.

    Quote
    Okay. But what about my question? Who are the mushrikun in your opiniom.


    Since you insist (haha!) I have a response (mine of course...) based on the same pattern I always use : rational, coherent, sourced. But, it is not the place, etc. Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4395 - September 30, 2018, 01:26 PM
    All latest spectacular Christian-Jewish finds: turn out to be forgeries

    All latest spectacular Islamic finds: turn out to be genuine, God is great.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4396 - September 30, 2018, 02:49 PM
    What does as-samad (الصَّمَدُ) mean in surah 112? I’ve heard it means solid? Tabari cites the following hadith:

    Al-Abbas b. Abi Talib < ‘Umar b. al-Rumi < ‘Ubayd Allah b. Sa’id < Salih b. Hayyan < Abd Allah b. Burayda < his father: he said: “I do not know about (this word), except that I asked the Prophet (s) who said ‘Al-Samad is the one who has no hollowness.”
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4397 - September 30, 2018, 03:48 PM

    All latest spectacular Islamic finds: turn out to be genuine, God is great

    No. No one says this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4398 - September 30, 2018, 03:50 PM
    Quote from: curious-lurker on September 30, 2018, 02:49 PM
    What does as-samad (الصَّمَدُ) mean in surah 112? I’ve heard it means solid? Tabari cites the following hadith:

    Al-Abbas b. Abi Talib < ‘Umar b. al-Rumi < ‘Ubayd Allah b. Sa’id < Salih b. Hayyan < Abd Allah b. Burayda < his father: he said: “I do not know about (this word), except that I asked the Prophet (s) who said ‘Al-Samad is the one who has no hollowness.”

    Hello curious-lurker., I often said and I say it again.,

    There is no point of reading Quran  or getting the meaning for ONE WORD OR ONE VERSE..  For whatever is the reason you are trying to find the meaning of that word as-samad (الصَّمَدُ) independent of chapter 112..

    question is .. How does knowing  meaning of "a word in a surah " will help understanding that surah??

    well let us take the word  " الصَّمَدُ" you are interested in..

    the meaning of it in English or any other language could go from  "Solid" like Iron ball  to  a person  "who has no hollowness.” in a given statement..

    or it could also mean...   "to persist.,"  "to persevere.,"  "to oppose.,"  "to endure.",  "to bear.," "to stand one's ground.," "to stand firm"., ...........whatever

    So the point is .. Would it not better to read whole verse or even whole Surah .. after all it is just four lines or or just 15 words??

    well anyways.. I like reading Quran.. so let me read whole surah here

    Quote
       Say: He, Allah, is One.
    Allah is He on Whom all depend.
    He begets not, nor is He begotten.
    And none is like Him.


    well that is  what it is .. and by the way that is Shakir translation... because I believe it is closest of all translations to the Arabic statements in it.

    with best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4399 - September 30, 2018, 05:58 PM
    The rest of the surah doesn’t clarify what it means. I’m asking what it means because no one knows what it means. Traditional exegetes have given several definitions, which is usually a sign that something is missing.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4400 - September 30, 2018, 06:19 PM
    Exegetes do not know any more than you (we) do.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4401 - September 30, 2018, 10:05 PM
    http://kfishak.wixsite.com/nudeislam/sura-112-true-exegesis
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4402 - September 30, 2018, 10:07 PM
    Quote from: Altara on September 29, 2018, 09:10 PM
    Not parts. All.


    Do you think it was written by the same group of literati (though some minor adjustments could have been made later) ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4403 - September 30, 2018, 10:14 PM
    Yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4404 - September 30, 2018, 10:15 PM
    Quote from: Altara on September 30, 2018, 09:47 AM
    Instead of assuming what I think (or not) you should assuming what the Quran think in posing question like :  if the mušrikūn and kuffār mentioned in the Quran are Jews and Christians why the Quran does not name them Jews and Christians?


    That verse does exclude the Jews from being the mushrikuns

    Surah 5:82   You will surely find the most intense of the people in animosity toward the believers [to be] the Jews and those who associate others with Allah ; and you will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say, "We are Christians." That is because among them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4405 - September 30, 2018, 10:16 PM
    Quote from: Altara on September 30, 2018, 10:14 PM
    Yes.


    Interesting because the different texts don't seem to have been written by the same people but rather they seem to be different texts collected and gathered into the same book and not edited to standardize the language and the stories told.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4406 - September 30, 2018, 10:32 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on September 30, 2018, 10:15 PM
    That verse does exclude the Jews from being the mushrikuns

    Surah 5:82   You will surely find the most intense of the people in animosity toward the believers [to be] the Jews and those who associate others with Allah ; and you will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say, "We are Christians." That is because among them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant.


    if the mušrikūn and kuffār mentioned in the Quran are Jews and Christians why the Quran does not name them Jews and Christians?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4407 - September 30, 2018, 10:39 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on September 30, 2018, 10:16 PM
    Interesting because the different texts don't seem to have been written by the same people


    What things allow you to say that?






  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4408 - September 30, 2018, 11:36 PM
    Quote

    What things allow you to say that?


    If you read Surah 8 from verse 11 to 18 and you compare it with surah 38 from verse 71 to 85, you see the same story told in a different ways and this means different authors worked on the text. The only explanation is that they had different sources and didn't work from the same one so they couldn't have belonged to the same group.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4409 - October 01, 2018, 09:12 AM
    Q 5:82 does not necessarily - going of the translation - include the Jews into the mushrikun-
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