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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4500 - October 04, 2018, 09:18 AM

    Nope, his son Abdallah : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_Allah_ibn_al-Zubayr
    Quote
    Starting from 683, al-Zubayr contested the title of caliph and rebelled against the ruling Umayyad Caliphate for nearly a decade. Ibn Zubayr was defeated and killed in Mecca in 692 AD after a six-month siege by the general Al-Hajjaj ibn Yusuf.[3]


    hi Altara in that link we have  a  story more than what you quoted .. in fact you quoted  harmless story...  here from the same link

    Quote
    Abd Allah al-Zubayr or ibn Zubayr (Arabic: عبد الله بن الزبير‎ ‘Abdallāh ibn az-Zubayr; 624–692)[1] was an Arab sahabi whose father was Zubayr ibn al-Awwam, and whose mother was Asma bint Abi Bakr, daughter of the first Caliph Abu Bakr. He was the nephew of Aisha, the third wife of the Islamic prophet, Muhammad. Abd-Allah ibn al-Zubayr[2] was the first Muslim to be born in Medina after the hijrah.[1]

    those highlighted names  are the characters of Islam that need to be inquired ...
    anyway    here is the interesting map  from http://islamichistory.org/



    And I say Early Islamic history secrets and origin of Islam  lies in that true history of  The Umayyad Caliphate

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4501 - October 04, 2018, 09:42 AM

    First Yeezevee, thanks for information.
    Interesting question you raise there: Who were the first believers/ Arabs/ conquerors/ occupants? What was their identity?
    Do they mainly wanted to spread a new religion or mostly searching for sex and wealth?
    The fall the Byzantine and the Persian empires created a power vacuum and the people living on the Arabian peninsula exploited the situation and created a new empire?
    Did they knew the Quran?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4502 - October 04, 2018, 09:52 AM

    Having quickly read through the latest posts, I am not sure where to start (again). Probably won't write rebuttals. How about I ask a question: what does it take to convince the mythicists here that there existed a historical Muhammad?


    For me, the biggest issue is that the Quran has nothing to do with Muhammad and doesn't mention him nor talk about where he lived. Once I had realised that, added to no Mecca/Hijra/No Hidjaz but an eastern setting for islam and a Sira totally made up, then I can only come to the conclusion that he never existed, even as an historical figure.

    The different non muslim sources are currently against me in the sense as some scholars think that they are contemporary to the muslim conquests and not interpolation from 9th c muslim sources. I am working on that to find the right explanation.

    I don't buy Altara's thesis that those contemporary non muslim sources derived their knowledge from arabs who in turn knew this from the Quranic texts that were circulating because it is contradicted by the Muhammad of Sebeos (nowhere does the Quran talk about an alliance with jews) and the merchant Muhammad (Sebeos/Jacob of Edessa).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4503 - October 04, 2018, 10:20 AM

    Nope, his son Abdallah : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_Allah_ibn_al-Zubayr


    Starting from 683, al-Zubayr contested the title of caliph and rebelled against the ruling Umayyad Caliphate for nearly a decade. Ibn Zubayr was defeated and killed in Mecca in 692 AD after a six-month siege by the general Al-Hajjaj ibn Yusuf.[3]


    Wikipedia needs updating in order to reflect true history.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4504 - October 04, 2018, 10:38 AM

    Marc S - where was he killed then, Ibn al-Zubayr, that is? And did he not rebel against the Umayyads?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4505 - October 04, 2018, 11:07 AM

    For me, the biggest issue is that the Quran has nothing to do with Muhammad and doesn't mention him nor talk about where he lived.


    Mi first issue is historical : no Mecca/Medina/Kaba. Therefore no "prophet" producer of the Quran.  Elsewhere? Plenty of Jews and Christians, therefore improbable if not impossible as this story would have spread (20 years talking to God, etc)

    Quote
    Once I had realised that, added to no Mecca/Hijra/No Hidjaz but an eastern setting for islam


    For me, Eastern emergence of the Quran but composition not necessarily there.

    Quote
    and a Sira totally made up, then I can only come to the conclusion that he never existed, even as an historical figure.


    Of course.

    Quote
    The different non muslim sources are currently against me in the sense as some scholars think that they are contemporary to the muslim conquests


    Nope, the different non Muslim sources never attests that this guy is alive and kicking. they attests that Arab literati talk of someone, that's all. Not that Arab literati have saw/lived/eaten/know very well the guy "Muhammad" they talk about. Never.

    Quote
    and not interpolation from 9th c muslim sources. I am working on that to find the right explanation.


    They are contemporary (except Sebeos where there is big issue about his datation) If the different non muslim sources of the 7th c. have been interpolated with Muslims sources of the 9th (like you said) we would have been all the story of "Muhammad" in all the different non Muslim sources of the 7th c. This is not the case (at all). Except Sebeos. But again, Sebeos have a big issue of datation.

    Quote
    I don't buy Altara's thesis that those contemporary non Muslim sources derived their knowledge from arabs who in turn knew this from the Quranic texts that were circulating because

     

     It seems to me that it is a rational and coherent explication.

    Quote
    it is contradicted by the Muhammad of Sebeos


    As we do not know the real datation of Sebeos and that exist an issue about it, I set aside this text to be surely of the 7th c. Especially that it is the only non Muslim source of the 7th c. that recounts what he recounts. The only one. For me, it is not normal ; why the others do not recounts the same thing? There is no reason. The only rational and coherent reason is that it is not a 7th c. text because of the aforementioned reason. That is why I set it aside, for now.

    Quote
    (nowhere does the Quran talk about an alliance with jews)

     

    He does.  

    Quote
    and the merchant Muhammad (Sebeos/Jacob of Edessa).


    There is no merchant Muhammad  in the Quran. There is a someone called Muhammad  who was designed as "merchant" by the Muslim narrative (sira, hadith, etc).

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4506 - October 04, 2018, 11:38 AM

    Who is this Muhammad and Messenger of the Quran, Altara? Are the four mentions also interpolations?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4507 - October 04, 2018, 12:24 PM

    Quote
    Who is this Muhammad and Messenger of the Quran, Altara?


    He does not exist where it is said that he existed. From the Quran point of view it can be deducted in reading it that it is the person to whom God is talking.  An this person is not generally named so :
    Quote
    Are the four mentions also interpolations?

    Possible. Especially to name this person.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4508 - October 04, 2018, 12:38 PM

    Okay. So the Muhammad named in the Quran is an is an epithet for an actual historical person who lived?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4509 - October 04, 2018, 12:42 PM

    Quote
    Okay. So the Muhammad named in the Quran is an is an epithet for an actual historical person who lived?


    Hahaha! Dear Mahgraye! I can only say to you (as this is not the place, etc) Reflect!!!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4510 - October 04, 2018, 12:43 PM

    Well, you certainly implied it. Can you tell me in private?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4511 - October 04, 2018, 12:48 PM

    There are several ways to interpret your answer, dear Altara. One that comes to mind is that you believe - at least based on the Quran - that there was actually a historical Muhammad but he has nothing to do with the Muhammad of Islam, which is an Abbasid construction. Another way is that this Muhammad is a completely different figure that is removed from what one might call the historical Muhammad and the Muhammad that eventually became the prophet of Islam. A third way is that this Muhammad is some Biblical figure, but in that case, I doubt you believe he existed at all since I think you are an Old Testament minimalist.

    But your initial answer tells me that you believe in some sort of minimal historicity, that is, there was some Muhammad out there but is obscure.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4512 - October 04, 2018, 12:58 PM

    Well, you certainly implied it. Can you tell me in private?


    Hahaha ! I've implied nothing :

    He does not exist where it is said that he existed. From the Quran point of view it can be deducted in reading it that it is the person to whom God is talking.  An this person is not generally named so :
    Quote
    Are the four mentions also interpolations?


    Possible. Especially to name this person that nobody knows if it is an interpolation. And if the name is genuine this changes in fact nothing.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4513 - October 04, 2018, 12:58 PM

    Well, you certainly implied it. Can you tell me in private?

    I will answer you for Altara on those four Muhammad's in those verses of Quran IN PRIVATE in a forum  dear  Mahgraye ...

    His answer is "Yes" Or "No"   Cheesy

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4514 - October 04, 2018, 12:59 PM

    Quote
    He does not exist where it is said that he existed


    Well, if he did not exist where is said to have existed, then he must have existed somewhere else
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4515 - October 04, 2018, 01:15 PM

    Well, if he did not exist where is said to have existed, then he must have existed somewhere else

    that appears to be close to fact.. Indeed in the history of mankind or in the history of Islam there were/are may "Praise worthy" men Existed and even now exist.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4516 - October 04, 2018, 01:27 PM

    First Yeezevee, thanks for information.
    1.  Interesting question you raise there: Who were the first believers/ Arabs/ conquerors/ occupants?

    2.  What was their identity?

    3.  Do they mainly wanted to spread a new religion or mostly searching for sex and wealth?

    interesting questions explore., we can also ask another question.,

    Was there any good man .. good preacher who tried to explain his congregation "HOW TO BE  A  TRUE MONOTHEISTIC ABRHAMIC FAITH FOLLOWER"??

    Quote
    The fall the Byzantine and the Persian empires created a power vacuum and the people living on the Arabian peninsula exploited the situation and created a new empire?

     Well   sure it happened  ...  Part of the equation in it may be  ..Those guys who were actually  were under Byzantine and the Persian empires fought war against each other for Byzantine and the Persian kings ...but fed up  with  them and their religious/ social, political and economic rules.
    Quote
    Did they knew the Quran?

    Oh! that is for sure.,  In fact more than 80% of Quran can be written way before the birth of Islam

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4517 - October 04, 2018, 01:31 PM

    There are several ways to interpret your answer, dear Altara. One that comes to mind is that you believe - at least based on the Quran - that there was actually a historical Muhammad but he has nothing to do with the Muhammad of Islam, which is an Abbasid construction.

    Nope. "Muhammad" (interpolated or not, but naming the person to whom God speak) is a Quranic construction. Because  the person to whom God speak is a Quranic construction.

    Quote
    A third way is that this Muhammad is some Biblical figure, but in that case, I doubt you believe he existed at all since I think you are an Old Testament minimalist.


    A figure.

    Quote
    But your initial answer tells me that you believe in some sort of minimal historicity, that is, there was some Muhammad out there but is obscure.


    From the moment where there is a name written, which seems to be speaking to God in Late Antiquity, he is taken naturally as historical. In any case it is what the writer wants.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4518 - October 04, 2018, 01:34 PM

    Well, if he did not exist where is said to have existed, then he must have existed somewhere else


    I've already responded to that, dear Mahgraye . Rationally, coherently, logically, it seems to me improbable, to say the least.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4519 - October 04, 2018, 01:52 PM


    For me, Eastern emergence of the Quran but composition not necessarily there.

    It depends what you mean by composition ; If composition is a translation to arabic then it is probably eastern ; for the texts themselves, that depends.

    Quote
    Nope, the different non Muslim sources never attests that this guy is alive and kicking. they attests that Arab literati talk of someone, that's all. Not that Arab literati have saw/lived/eaten/know very well the guy "Muhammad" they talk about. Never.


    I didn't mean that he was alive when referring to sources contemporary of the muslim conquests. I just wanted to highlight that they are seen by most scholars as early sources and quite close to the alledged life of Muhammad so, in theory, genuine sources.



    Quote
    They are contemporary (except Sebeos where there is big issue about his datation) If the different non muslim sources of the 7th c. have been interpolated with Muslims sources of the 9th (like you said) we would have been all the story of "Muhammad" in all the different non Muslim sources of the 7th c. This is not the case (at all). Except Sebeos. But again, Sebeos have a big issue of datation.


    You are wrong here in your thinking for 2 reasons : 1) You assume Muhammad history was fixed from the start and never changed ; we know it is wrong from the muslim tradition itself  2) You assume information would not have been lost/distorted when being transmitted ; we know that this is wrong when we deal with oral trnasmission.

    Quote
    It seems to me that it is a rational and coherent explication.


    This is an opinion, not a fact.


    Quote
    As we do not know the real datation of Sebeos and that exist an issue about it, I set aside this text to be surely of the 7th c. Especially that it is the only non Muslim source of the 7th c. that recounts what he recounts. The only one. For me, it is not normal ; why the others do not recounts the same thing? There is no reason. The only rational and coherent reason is that it is not a 7th c. text because of the aforementioned reason. That is why I set it aside, for now.



    You are again wrong in your thinking here (but you might be right about the datation of Sebeos) ; reason why you are wrong is because Jacob of Edessa and Sebeos both mention a merchant so they agree. Also, if you turn to Thomas the Presbyter, the Jacob of Edessa folio, Chronicle of Khuzistan, they only mention Muhammad's name and they stop there. The fact that Sebeos gives more details is linked to the fact he is writing as a scholar and want to provide full details.



    Quote
    He does.  



    The Quran never mentions Jews fleeing from Edessa and going to Arabs and convincing them to wage war against Byzantium in order to take back the Holy Land.

    Quote
    There is no merchant Muhammad  in the Quran. There is a someone called Muhammad  who was designed as "merchant" by the Muslim narrative (sira, hadith, etc).


    Yes 9th c sources unless you assume that Al Zuhri to whom Ibn Ishaq and al trace their writings back to was already active in "collecting" Muhammad's history.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4520 - October 04, 2018, 03:06 PM

    Quote
    it depends what you mean by composition ; If composition is a translation to arabic then it is probably eastern ; for the texts themselves, that depends.


    I mean composition/writing in Arabic (no translation from what? Syriac? Why not but not necessarily). Eastern emergence.Not necessarily composition/writing there.

    Quote
    I just wanted to highlight that they are seen by most scholars as early sources and quite close to the alledged life of Muhammad so, in theory, genuine sources.


    Ok.

    Quote
    You are wrong here in your thinking for 2 reasons : 1) You assume Muhammad history was fixed from the start and never changed. we know it is wrong from the muslim tradition itself


    1/ I see a linear story from the first Muslims sources which increase with more and more details through time. Sign of it progressive invention from the Quranic text. I do not see a significant "change" in the his core story . There is no "different" core stories of Muhammad.

    Quote
    Jacob of Edessa and Sebeos both mention a merchant so they agree.


    Only "merchant". Not the very detailed narrative of Sebeos. Not convincing. One word...

    Quote
    The fact that Sebeos gives more details is linked to the fact he is writing as a scholar and want to provide full details.


     You extrapolate. You're not in the head of Sebeos, and do not know what he "wants".  He knows the details that the others did not know. Which is not normal for me if it was of the 7th c.  What would be the reason of this huge difference? And since there is an issue with datation, this text cannot be the foundation of a valid reasoning saying that in the 7th c. they knew what Sebeos said.

    Quote
    The Quran never mentions Jews fleeing from Edessa and going to Arabs and convincing them to wage war against Byzantium in order to take back the Holy Land.


    He does mention a covenant. Reread the Quran.

    Quote
    Yes 9th c sources unless you assume that Al Zuhri to whom Ibn Ishaq and al trace their writings back to was already active in "collecting" Muhammad's history.


    Possible indeed!


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4521 - October 04, 2018, 05:02 PM

    Quote
    1/ I see a linear story from the first Muslims sources which increase with more and more details through time. Sign of it progressive invention from the Quranic text. I do not see a significant "change" in the his core story . There is no "different" core stories of Muhammad.


    We know from Ibn Hicham that he edited Ibn Ishaq's text so we know that Muhammad story we have today was altered. We don't know WHAT was altered.   At the same time, Sebeos is telling a story that doesn't tie up with the Sira of the 9th century so it means something did change this storyline. This is the only thing we can say, any other thing is just assumptions Wink

    Quote
    You extrapolate. You're not in the head of Sebeos, and do not know what he "wants".  He knows the details that the others did not know. Which is not normal for me if it was of the 7th c.  What would be the reason of this huge difference?


    No extrapolation. Sebeos did write about history, the others didn't. For Jacob of Edessa, he wrote about history but most of his works is lost.  I think  Michael  the Syrian used it in his own work.


    Quote
    He does mention a covenant. Reread the Quran.


    For me, the Quran is not an historical document ; only the muslim tradition say so but not the text itself ; I would be very curious to know what part does suggest a covenant between jews and arabs/muslims/believers in order to take back the Holy Land  knowing that the Quran clearly states this : O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people. (Quran 5/51).



    One funny thing about Sebeos writings ; when he talks about those jews fleeing from Edessa, most translations say those Jews went to Arabia, to the sons of Ismael, Arabia being seen as the Hijaz ; the real translation is this :  So they departed, taking the road through the desert to Tachkastan Arabia to the sons of Ishmael. Another proof that arabs invaders didn't come from Hijaz. But no scholar has tried to work on this,  sticking to the muslim tradition instead and not wondering why the hell Sebeos wrote this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4522 - October 04, 2018, 05:58 PM

    Quote
    We don't know WHAT was altered.


    But we do know. People exaggerate on this point, claiming that Ibn Ishaq (the contents, not the physical book) is lost and that we do not know what Ibn Hisham altered.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4523 - October 04, 2018, 06:13 PM

    .................................


    For me, the Quran is not an historical document ............
    Quote
    the Quran clearly states this : O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people. (Quran 5/51).


    there is no doubt about that the Quran is not an historical document ., and that goes for not only Qurant but other so-called religious scriptures..  But Quran here and there seem to give hints to the history of the time it was written..by coupling an event to old stories of OT & NT

    well  that verse must have come /said/written by a converted Juice like this one  ..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLAhpw-T3kg

    but I am just curious Mark S..  did any one see that verse in those earlier Quran manuscripts such as Sana'a manuscript,  or in that Samarkand Kufic Quran ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4524 - October 04, 2018, 06:17 PM

    Quote
    Yes 9th c sources unless you assume that Al Zuhri to whom Ibn Ishaq and al trace their writings back to was already active in "collecting" Muhammad's history.


    I do not know the context of this statement, but yes, al-Zuhri did in fact "collect" stories as aid-memories, as he is an established common link, systematically spreading traditions.

    I have some additional questions for you, dear Altara. Please wait.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4525 - October 04, 2018, 06:22 PM

    ................., al-Zuhri ................

     what name.,  i wonder that guy remembers his own name

    "Abu Bakr Mu}:tammad b. Muslim b. 'Ubaydallah b. 'Abdallah b. Shihab b. 'Abdallah b. al-l:larith b. Zuhrah b. Kilab, 1" better known as Ibn Shihab al-Zuhri...

    stupid hadith....no point even  reading it  forget analyzing it..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4526 - October 04, 2018, 06:27 PM

    ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4527 - October 04, 2018, 06:32 PM

    ?

      ?? ...lol...

    https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=20596.0

    Quote
    EARLY HADITH LITERATURE AND THE THEORY OF IGNAZ GOLDZIHER BY TALAL MALOUSH THESIS PRESENTED FOR THE DEGREE OF DOCTOR OF PHILOSOPHY IN THE DEPARTMENT OF ISLAMIC AND MIDDLE EASTERN STUDIES FACULTY OF ARTS, UNIVERSITY OF EDINBURGH, AUGUST 2000 ....

    BIOGRAPHICAL NOTES ON IBN SHIHAB AL-ZUHRI*

    DISTORTION OF FACTS AND HISTORY IN „MUSLIM STUDIES’BY IGNAZ GOLDZIHER  by  Alam Khan

    MOHAMMED AND ISLAM     by  IGNAZGOLDZIHER,

     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4528 - October 04, 2018, 06:39 PM

    I will abstain from entering another pointless back-and-forth.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4529 - October 04, 2018, 06:47 PM

    Quote
    We know from Ibn Hicham that he edited Ibn Ishaq's text so we know that Muhammad story we have today was altered.


    Not the core story which is summarized in few words.

    Quote
    Sebeos is telling a story that doesn't tie up with the Sira of the 9th century


    Of course. Sebeos is a Christian. He tries to understand what happened and give, with some Arabic informations, (merchant, etc) is own explication of what happened.

    Quote
    so it means something did change this storyline.


    Sebeos try to understand what happened with the Arabs. He states his own theory.

    Quote
    For me, the Quran is not an historical document


    It is not the topic. The topic is about a covenant between Jews and Arabs. I say to you reread the Quran. There is a mention of a covenant in the Quran. In the mood of the Quran, of course, not like Sebeos ...
    I already quote the verse in this forum for you. You did not retain it.

    Quote
    I would be very curious to know what part does suggest a covenant between jews and arabs/muslims/believers in order to take back the Holy Land  knowing that the Quran clearly states this : O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people. (Quran 5/51).


    Reread the Quran. There is a covenant between one "Jewish" representative and one person which is an "Arab" one united in a common project.

    Quote
    the real translation is this :  So they departed, taking the road through the desert to Tachkastan Arabia to the sons of Ishmael. Another proof that arabs invaders didn't come from Hijaz. But no scholar has tried to work on this,  sticking to the muslim tradition instead and not wondering why the hell Sebeos wrote this.  


    " Tachkastan Arabia"  seems very cryptic, but you're right about scholars.
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