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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4590 - October 05, 2018, 08:03 PM

    I'm still waiting for evidence for this : " Al-Malik had been used on a coin dated 685 once before in connection with the prophet Muhammad. There, he was branded “governor” of his (future) enemy az-Zubair. "
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4591 - October 05, 2018, 08:04 PM

    Gibson again... Jerash mosque 743AD

    Coming across the work of the Danish-German team I checked the direction of the Qibla.  The early mosque and its shape is discussed in this article: https://miri.ku.dk/projekts/djijp/

    Trying to explain away the shape they come up with this explanation:

    Quote
    The cause of this irregular shape was probably the need to place the mosque at an angle to the prevailing Roman-period urban grid (in an attempt to orientate the mosque towards Makka/Mecca), and the existence of earlier structures to the west.


    But when checking, the mosque points to Petra.... (190  SW).
    And yes! Gibson has it in his list.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4592 - October 05, 2018, 08:51 PM

    Marc,

    What is your theory for how the Quran came to exist?

    Here a cute, very readable article: http://www.academia.edu/7257668/Paradise_in_the_Quran_and_Ephrem_the_Syrian

    Could such material (relationship of Ephrem hymns and Quran cfr Paradise) give clues?


    I don't give so much focus on the Quran to be honest. Why ? Because I think today that the arabs invaders didn't care about it and that it was only important for a small portion of them, and not in the way islam exist today.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4593 - October 05, 2018, 09:02 PM

    But when checking, the mosque points to Petra.... (190  SW).
    And yes! Gibson has it in his list.



    To validate his Petra assumption, Gibson relies on the muslim tradition that is false. That is the first issue.

    The 2nd issue is that how could islam been born in Petra without no one knowing about it. It doesn't make sense.

    Now those mosks might have been directed to the Neguev/Sinai region. The Bible tells us that Ishmael settled there so why not.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4594 - October 05, 2018, 10:20 PM

    Quote
    The 2nd issue is that how could islam been born in Petra without no one knowing about it. It doesn't make sense.


    That is my first issue because it appears that as "Mecca/Medina/Kaba" is less and less credible (for many scholars even if they do not state it) and that the "solution" to save a part of "private Islam" is to locate the supposed "prophet" producer of the Quran elsewhere, further North for example (Crone, etc). But there is a big issue there. "how could islam been born in Petra without no one knowing about it?" Since in Petra (or elsewhere) is heavily populated by Christians and some Jews "without no one knowing about it"?  It seems improbable (when we know Late Antiquity) that this story was not known elsewhere. As nobody knew it, it seems that this story has never existed.






  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4595 - October 05, 2018, 10:37 PM

    Quote
    The 2nd issue is that how could islam been born in Petra without no one knowing about it. It doesn't make sense.


    Quote
    That is my first issue because it appears that as "Mecca/Medina/Kaba" is less and less credible (for many scholars even if they do not state it) and that the "solution" to save a part of "private Islam" is to locate the supposed "prophet" producer of the Quran elsewhere, further North for example (Crone, etc). But there is a big issue there. "how could islam been born in Petra without no one knowing about it?" Since in Petra (or elsewhere) is heavily populated by Christians and some Jews "without no one knowing about it"?  It seems improbable (when we know Late Antiquity) that this story was not known elsewhere. As nobody knew it, it seems that this story has never existed.


    For the very simple reason that Islam was not born in Petra. I have to take issue with your description of Crone's solution as an attempts to "save" something. Her argument is based primarily on the Quran. Going back to Petra, allow me to quote Gallez:

    Quote
    Unlike Dan Gibson, we don’t see Petra as birthplace of Islam (he locates there Ka‘ba, Zamzam, Bakka etc. without any topo-paleographic argument). The link of Petra with the primo-Islam only is Al-Zubayr. In their disarray after waiving Jerusalem as qibla and after ‘Ali’s murder, his supporters must have turned to his capital for praying. And that’s all!

    At the opposite our own research rigorously highlighted a Mount “Abu Qubays” in northern Syria (its summit bore a “sanctuary of Abraham” according to a Persian source): this name obviously was transferred to a mount at the edge of the Meccan basin. Moreover, just not far from there can be found mount Abu Ka‘ba –: its name is historically attested, it is not a speculation. And above all, the name of Muhammad ’s tribe, Quraysh, is that of northern Syrian place and river! And there are other clues more.


    If there is any truth to Gibson's hypothesis, it is in the way Gallez interpreted it (not taking Gallez's entire statement for granted).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4596 - October 05, 2018, 11:18 PM

    Quote
    not taking Gallez's entire statement for granted


    Gallez here is on the side of Crone (further North). But that does not count. He does not validate the story of the narrative (Prophet speaking to God, etc) So yes it could be anywhere in Orient with the version of Gallez. Whereas the story recounted by the narrative is improbable in Orient, as it seems difficult that this story was not known.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4597 - October 06, 2018, 12:01 AM

    Yes, you are right. Gallez thinks that 95% of the narrative is completely fabricated. Even though he thinks Muhammad existed, he does not give an important role at all, if anything. He only thinks he was there at one point. That is it. I personally find the "further north" model intriguing. Don't you also think the Quran (not the narrative) came from somewhere in the north?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4598 - October 06, 2018, 02:32 AM

    Gallez here is on the side of Crone (further North).................

    i also  think Mecca is further north to Gibson's Petra..... lol....

    Hmm... May be North east to Petra......

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4599 - October 06, 2018, 05:52 AM

    “At the opposite our own research rigorously highlighted a Mount “Abu Qubays” in northern Syria (its summit bore a “sanctuary of Abraham” according to a Persian source): this name obviously was transferred to a mount at the edge of the Meccan basin. Moreover, just not far from there can be found mount Abu Ka‘ba –: its name is historically attested, it is not a speculation. And above all, the name of Muhammad ’s tribe, Quraysh, is that of northern Syrian place and river! And there are other clues more.”

    Fascinating.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4600 - October 06, 2018, 07:07 AM

    Gibson-Petra-other theories:

    I am not introducing Gibson here again bc I think his theory is 100 % correct. No one's is. As I mentioned previously, I think his main contribution is listing up the early mosques and proving it took centuries before they all pointed to Mecca. Another interesting point is that there are indications of very, very early mosques in distant lands. We can dismiss this as false, I do think it is worth investigating.

    Has anyone looked at the link I provided?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4601 - October 06, 2018, 10:37 AM

    Quote from: Altara
    It seems improbable (when we know Late Antiquity) that this story was not known elsewhere. As nobody knew it, it seems that this story has never existed.

    For the very simple reason that Islam was not born in Petra.

    Petra or   elsewhere anyhow  is the same. Since elsewhere is heavily populated by Christians and some Jews this story would have been known. So it is not Petra in itself the issue, it is the story unknown to all the Orient.
     
    I have to take issue with your description of Crone's solution as an attempts to "save" something. Her argument is based primarily on the Quran.


    As she could not think that Muhammad did not exist. As she could not think that the core story recounted by Ibn Ishaq was not true (a prophet speaking to God, etc) because she was nor sceptic nor revisionist  she was saved by the Quran which of course does not describe the place of Mecca, simply because there is no "Mecca":

    Quote from: Crone
    The Quran is quite rich in information on the livelihoods of both mushrikun and believers, but the result is puzzling. The book describes the two as living together in a community overwhelmingly based on agriculture while also depicting the believers as forming a community of their own in which trade was a prominent occupation. More crudely put, it describes the mushrikun as agriculturalists and the believers as traders : the situation is the reverse of what one expects. It should not be too difficult to reconcile the picture of the believers' community given in the Quran with that of the Prophet's Medina presented in other sources, but its description of the community shared by mushrikun and believers can hardly be said to be suggestive of Mecca as we know it from the tradition. Where do we go from there ? I do not wish to burden this paper with conjecture, so I simply leave the reader with the question.
    Crone  : « How Did the Quranic Pagans Make a Living ? », in Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 68, No. 3 (2005), pp. 387-399, p.399.


    Saved in displacing Quraysh : she states then that the gathering of Quraysh should take place further North. But she did not make the second part of this reasoning that I raise and that Marc raise as well : further North (or East or South) means heavily populated by Christians and Jews which meaning  that this core story of Ibn Ishaq (20 years of speaking to God) would not have been known this time by Christians and Jews in an heavily scribal civilization. Seems very improbable for all amateur of Late Antiquity. There is no allusions nowhere.
    Why Crone did not ask to herself this second part reasoning? It is yet necessarily  the logical consequence of what she did, displacing Quraysh  further North the core story of Ibn Ishaq. Simply because Quraysh is the core story of Ibn Ishaq  Because she was totally convinced that the core story of Ibn Ishaq was true. She was not sceptic at all! Displacing further North did not change any of her convictions whereas it should have done it : no second part.  And the rest of her production proves that displacing further North did not change anything in her mind. She was a great believer as she always stated it.

    Yes, you are right. Gallez thinks that 95% of the narrative is completely fabricated. Even though he thinks Muhammad existed, he does not give an important role at all, if anything. He only thinks he was there at one point. That is it.


    That is an issue : he set aside Muhammad but he says it existed. Doing this, it allows people to outline this point. He should have said that it did not existed at all, as his thesis does not need him (at all). He didn't understand, that precisely what was going to happen will be that people  will always hang to "even the great revisionist Gallez says it has existed". "Even him!"
    It is possible that he hesitated to suppress him, viewing that  he does not give an important role to this figure. And (for me...) it should have done it because his thesis simply does not need him and thus would not allow people to say : "Gallez says he existed!"

    Quote
    I personally find the "further north" model intriguing. Don't you also think the Quran (not the narrative) came from somewhere in the north?


    Crone has pointed above the issue that what the Quran describes cannot be the environment of the barren Western peninsula. She was right.There is no "Mecca" of  today.
    As I already said, the composition of the core text (and further interpolations) could have been taken place anywhere in Orient, but it's emergence has taken place in Iraq, not Palestine.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4602 - October 06, 2018, 12:07 PM

    Altara throws some rational nuggets here .. let me put them as points
    1). it is not Petra in itself the issue, it is the story unknown to all the Orient.
     
    Quote
    As she could not think that Muhammad did not exist. As she could not think that the core story recounted by Ibn Ishaq was not true (a prophet speaking to God, etc) because she was nor sceptic nor revisionist  she was saved by the Quran which[b] of course[/b] does not describe the place of Mecca, simply because there is no "Mecca"
    :


    Saved in displacing Quraysh : she states then that the gathering of Quraysh should take place further North. But she did not make the second part of this reasoning that I raise and that Marc raise as well : further North (or East or South) means


    2). ....heavily populated by Christians and Jews which meaning  that this core story of Ibn Ishaq (20 years of speaking to God) would not have been known this time by Christians and Jews in an heavily scribal civilization. Seems very improbable for all amateur of Late Antiquity. There is no allusions nowhere.

    Why Crone did not ask to herself this second part reasoning? It is the   yet  necessarily  the[u][b] logical consequence[/b][/u] of what she did, displacing Quraysh  further North the core story of Ibn Ishaq. Simply because Quraysh is the core story of Ibn Ishaq  Because she was totally convinced that the core story of Ibn Ishaq was true. She was not sceptic at all! Displacing further North did not change any of her convictions[u][b] whereas it should have done it [/b][/u] : no second part.  And the rest of her production proves that displacing further North did not change anything in her mind. She was a great believer as she always stated it.

    That is an issue : he set aside Muhammad but he says it existed. Doing this, it allows people to outline this point. He should have said that it did not existed at all, as his thesis does not need him (at all). He didn't understand, that precisely what was going to happen will be that people  will always hang to "even the great revisionist Gallez says it has existed". "Even him!"
    It is possible that he hesitated to suppress him, viewing that  he does not give an important role to this figure. And (for me...) it should have done it because his thesis simply does not need him and thus would not allow people to say : "Gallez says he existed!"

    Crone has pointed above the issue that what the Quran describes cannot be the environment of the barren Western peninsula. She was right. It is not the "Mecca" of  today.
    As I already said,

    3). the composition of the core text (and further interpolations) could have been taken place anywhere in the Orient, but it's emergence has taken place in Iraq, not Palestine.


    So those are the nuggets from my  point of view...

    Let us leave dr..Crone and other historians aside .. She did what she could during her time ., Many of you may not know but she was hiding for some time from Islamic heroes after her work on  Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam.

    They are folks of their time.. Like the story of "Muhammad/Mecca/Madina/Zam zam' ., it was the story of its time .,  We must realize here   Historians who were exploring origin of religions  in 20th century were  controlled by their surroundings  which means, religious authorities.. kings......Oil money.. AMRIKI oil money  donations to   EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTES .. JOBS ..PEERS ...FUNDING ..... POLITICS AND WHAT NOT..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4603 - October 06, 2018, 04:32 PM

    Origin of Quran,

    If it was indeed Iraq, we remain with the same problem. 20 years of preaching and nobody wrote anything down, in a scribal culture?

    What about the geographical references to Gods and topos in Arabia Petraea?

    Of course the authors of the Quran didnt need to be living where their story is happening. They could have been writing for a public living there, or not living there. My point has always been that the audience doesnt matter  much.

    What I really can't get my head around is where did proto-islam get this critical mass of people to start a successful invasion that lasted? You cant hide thousands of people somewhere in the desert and make them pop up at the right time.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4604 - October 06, 2018, 04:59 PM

    ................................

    What I really can't get my head around is where did proto-islam get this critical mass of people to start a successful invasion that lasted? You cant hide thousands of people somewhere in the desert and make them pop up at the right time.

    mundi   explore present Islamic nations ((whose population has more than 80% Muslim folks backward )) you will have an answer for that question..

    take an example of Indonesia((or any other country except Middle East that have high% of Muslim folks))  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Indonesia  

    Quote
    ...................There are evidence of Arab Muslim traders entering Indonesia as early as the 8th century. However, it was not until the end of the 13th century that the spread of Islam began.   At first, Islam was introduced through Arab Muslim traders, and then the missionary activity by scholars, and it was further aided by the adoption by the local rulers and the conversion of the elites..........................


     And I say that also goes to earlier Islam.. It doesn't mean there were no  external warfare to convert some elite population of some  nations to make them Muslims...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4605 - October 06, 2018, 05:15 PM

    Origin of Quran,

    If it was indeed Iraq, we remain with the same problem. 20 years of preaching and nobody wrote anything down, in a scribal culture?

    that is a good question to answer and in fact Altara himself framed the same question on Petra which you pointed out.. let me elaborate a bit on that
    Petra or  elsewhere anyhow  is the same. Since elsewhere is heavily populated by Christians and some Jews this story would have been known. So it is not Petra in itself the issue..............
     
    .................. second part of this reasoning that I raise and that Marc raise as well : further North (or East or South) means heavily populated by Christians and Jews which meaning  that this core story of Ibn Ishaq (20 years of speaking to God) would not have been known this time by Christians and Jews in an heavily scribal civilization. Seems very improbable for all amateur of Late Antiquity. There is no allusions nowhere.

    So going to Iraq..

    At that time Iraq .. The present Iraq was very well developed



     please go to this link  https://www.cemml.colostate.edu/cultural/09476/iraq05a.html  and click those red dots you see in the above pic   and   see how well developed that country was in mid  5th century to mid 6th century  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4606 - October 06, 2018, 05:37 PM

    Gibson again... Jerash mosque 743AD

    Coming across the work of the Danish-German team I checked the direction of the Qibla.  ............

    what ??   

    http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archives/view/assemblage/html/8/damgaardandblanke.html

    If there was/is a  great Mosque in that famous Ancient  Jordan city .. then It must have been built on the ruins of   church or decommissioned church building as population changed  their   faith from Christianity to Islam ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4607 - October 06, 2018, 06:39 PM

    Yeez,

    This is the link, dont understand what happened to it..

    https://miri.ku.dk/projekts/djijp/

    Focus on the mosque, the mosque that is not turned East but West..
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4608 - October 06, 2018, 07:39 PM

    Yeez,

    Thank you for the extra link, now I see that it is additional info. I think this extract from the detailed mosque survey is interesting:

    Quote
    A closer examination of the structure's layout and dimensions revealed that the alignment of the qibla wall is at 190° SW, which compared to nearby Amman (160° SE) is slightly off


    Although this mosque is directed West instead of East being 30 degrees off from Mecca, the deviation is categorized as "slightly off".  Scholars are so programmed into looking for the Mecca direction, that even when the direction is clearly NOT Mecca, they say it is Mecca.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4609 - October 06, 2018, 08:05 PM

    Yeez,
    ........................
    ................. Mecca, .............
    .................. Mecca direction,.............
    ..................say it is Mecca.............

    those words .. you  meant present Mecca .. Not Petra or some other place??

    to me  that Altara song of  Mecca/Madina/Muhammad/Zamzam as he points out often is pretty much an  outdated concept with reference to "origins of Islam and Quran"., it is only relevant w.r.t present day Islam where we have 1.5 billion or more Muslim folks  who look at these places as Islamic scared places, And 19 century Oil wells, oil wealth  and population explosion cemented these places as historical Islamic places  

     It appears in good old times,  one of those Umayyad Islamic Caliph  wanted to keep these Islam revered  places remote from the public sphere he was ruling....  hence they made up a story  and  we are brain washed  now to see them in Sand land desert ..

    what would be interesting is carefully looking at those Old Quran manuscripts and carefully scanning them throughly to find out what actually they wrote on these  [iMecca/ Madina/ Muhammad/ Zamzam/ Kaaba [/i]  stories

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4610 - October 06, 2018, 08:23 PM

    Jarash archeological report,

    (http://archaeologydataservice.ac.uk/archives/view/assemblage/html/8/damgaardandblanke.html)

    The archeologists again find no proof of a destructive take-over of the city by the proto-muslims. What does this mean? The army of proto-muslims didnt need to be very large? But how did the muslims take over the land also culturally? If they were not many, how come they were not assimilated in the existing high standing cultures?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4611 - October 06, 2018, 08:44 PM

    Scholars are so programmed into looking for the Mecca direction, that even when the direction is clearly NOT Mecca, they say it is Mecca.


    They are not programmed. They believes. They're (fort theses topics...) as Muslims as the others.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4612 - October 07, 2018, 01:30 AM

    Quote
    “At the opposite our own research rigorously highlighted a Mount “Abu Qubays” in northern Syria (its summit bore a “sanctuary of Abraham” according to a Persian source): this name obviously was transferred to a mount at the edge of the Meccan basin. Moreover, just not far from there can be found mount Abu Ka‘ba –: its name is historically attested, it is not a speculation. And above all, the name of Muhammad ’s tribe, Quraysh, is that of northern Syrian place and river! And there are other clues more.”

    Fascinating.

    Hello lurker....  i guess you got all that stuff from here  http://rootsofislamtruehistory.com/

    Question to you  ...   Whose blog is that?  that is not from Dan Gibson.,  is that statement from Édouard-Marie Gallez ??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4613 - October 07, 2018, 02:48 AM

    I was quoting that passage from Mahgraye’s post, sorry for the confusion
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4614 - October 07, 2018, 05:24 AM

    I am not sure whether I should respond or not. Sometimes it better to not engage. One does not always need to justify ones beliefs.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4615 - October 07, 2018, 05:42 AM

    There is at the moment much attention to inscriptions found in Arabia. What can it tell about the origins of Islam?
    But do any of you know of inscriptions on rocks in other places in the Islamic empires? What did the early conquerors wrote? What was important to them? Since the Arabs were so few they had to use a lot of people with a non-Arabic and non Muslim background to conquer and administration. Some of these people must have been literate. What did they wrote?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4616 - October 07, 2018, 05:50 AM

    ................ One does not always need to justify ones beliefs....................

    rational logical discussion on the historical events of planet earth whether it is science/religion/culture/language development  will not depend on a 'BELIEF"  of a person or on a belief of a group people  dear Mahgraye

    anyways what is your opinion on this book  translated by by Annabel Keeler, Ali Keeler??



    that book was supposed to be written by Abū Muḥammad Sahl ibn ʿAbd Allāh  aka Sahl al-Tustari  a Persian Muslim scholar and early classical Sufi mystic  born after 200 years or  so after the death of Islamic Prophet Muhammad..  it has some insights into the spiritual significance of some 1,000 verses of the Qur'an,..

    you can download the book by clicking that picture..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4617 - October 07, 2018, 07:37 AM

    I am not sure whether I should respond or not. Sometimes it better to not engage. One does not always need to justify ones beliefs.


    Quote from: Altara
    It seems improbable (when we know Late Antiquity) that this story was not known elsewhere. As nobody knew it, it seems that this story has never existed.

    For the very simple reason that Islam was not born in Petra.

    Petra or   elsewhere anyhow  is the same. Since elsewhere is heavily populated by Christians and some Jews this story would have been known. So it is not Petra in itself the issue, it is the story unknown to all the Orient.
     
    I have to take issue with your description of Crone's solution as an attempts to "save" something. Her argument is based primarily on the Quran.


    As she could not think that Muhammad did not exist. As she could not think that the core story recounted by Ibn Ishaq was not true (a prophet speaking to God, etc) because she was nor sceptic nor revisionist  she was saved by the Quran which of course does not describe the place of Mecca, simply because there is no "Mecca":

    Quote from: Crone
    The Quran is quite rich in information on the livelihoods of both mushrikun and believers, but the result is puzzling. The book describes the two as living together in a community overwhelmingly based on agriculture while also depicting the believers as forming a community of their own in which trade was a prominent occupation. More crudely put, it describes the mushrikun as agriculturalists and the believers as traders : the situation is the reverse of what one expects. It should not be too difficult to reconcile the picture of the believers' community given in the Quran with that of the Prophet's Medina presented in other sources, but its description of the community shared by mushrikun and believers can hardly be said to be suggestive of Mecca as we know it from the tradition. Where do we go from there ? I do not wish to burden this paper with conjecture, so I simply leave the reader with the question.
    Crone  : « How Did the Quranic Pagans Make a Living ? », in Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 68, No. 3 (2005), pp. 387-399, p.399.


    Saved in displacing Quraysh : she states then that the gathering of Quraysh should take place further North. But she did not make the second part of this reasoning that I raise and that Marc raise as well : further North (or East or South) means heavily populated by Christians and Jews which meaning  that this core story of Ibn Ishaq (20 years of speaking to God) would not have been known this time by Christians and Jews in an heavily scribal civilization. Seems very improbable for all amateur of Late Antiquity. There is no allusions nowhere.
    Why Crone did not ask to herself this second part reasoning? It is yet necessarily  the logical consequence of what she did, displacing Quraysh  further North the core story of Ibn Ishaq. Simply because Quraysh is the core story of Ibn Ishaq  Because she was totally convinced that the core story of Ibn Ishaq was true. She was not sceptic at all! Displacing further North did not change any of her convictions whereas it should have done it : no second part.  And the rest of her production proves that displacing further North did not change anything in her mind. She was a great believer as she always stated it.

    Yes, you are right. Gallez thinks that 95% of the narrative is completely fabricated. Even though he thinks Muhammad existed, he does not give an important role at all, if anything. He only thinks he was there at one point. That is it.


    That is an issue : he set aside Muhammad but he says it existed. Doing this, it allows people to outline this point. He should have said that it did not existed at all, as his thesis does not need him (at all). He didn't understand, that precisely what was going to happen will be that people  will always hang to "even the great revisionist Gallez says it has existed". "Even him!"
    It is possible that he hesitated to suppress him, viewing that  he does not give an important role to this figure. And (for me...) it should have done it because his thesis simply does not need him and thus would not allow people to say : "Gallez says he existed!"

    Quote
    I personally find the "further north" model intriguing. Don't you also think the Quran (not the narrative) came from somewhere in the north?


    Crone has pointed above the issue that what the Quran describes cannot be the environment of the barren Western peninsula. She was right.There is no "Mecca" of  today.
    As I already said, the composition of the core text (and further interpolations) could have been taken place anywhere in Orient, but it's emergence (for me...) has taken place in Iraq, not Palestine.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4618 - October 07, 2018, 08:23 AM

    Quote
    As I already said, the composition of the core text (and further interpolations) could have been taken place anywhere in Orient, but it's emergence (for me...) has taken place in Iraq, not Palestine


    Why Iraq?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4619 - October 07, 2018, 09:29 AM

    Quote
    Why Iraq?


    Dear Mundi,

    Unfortunately I cannot go further as it is not the place to do it. The sources are there, suffices to read them in putting aside the Muslim narrative of the 9th c.(including the existence of a "prophet" supposed to have written the Quranic texts.) which clothes all the actors of the time of Islamic garments (in telling that they would have came from Mecca/Medina/Kaba, are "Companions", Caliphs (Abu Bakr, Utman, Ali, Muawiya, etc) that  these actors never validate  in any of their documents (epigraphic, archaeologic, or scribal). External sources is the same. One wonder why the external sources would have not stated these informations.
    They had no reasons to not state them. Then, rationally, logically, coherently,  it seems clear that they were not aware that they did deal with "Companions", "Caliphs" etc., as the Muslim narrative of the 9th c. will describe them. Because they were not. These people were aware of Quranic texts and that is all.


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