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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4890 - October 16, 2018, 12:04 PM
    Lamsiah should not ask him. They know each other, btw. I see no point. Irrelevant. Why does Gallez publsish in French? Who cares.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4891 - October 16, 2018, 12:05 PM
    Do you remember some of his publications in English? Apparently, he had many.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4892 - October 16, 2018, 12:50 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on October 16, 2018, 12:04 PM
    Lamsiah should not ask him. They know each other, btw. I see no point. Irrelevant. Why does Gallez publsish in French? Who cares.


    1/ He should.
    2/ That you see no point is your problem. I see one odd/bizarre point, as Germans scholars publish also in English, it seems to me curious that Kerr do not do it as it is his mother tongue.
    3/Gallez is French.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4893 - October 16, 2018, 12:55 PM
    Most German publications don't get translated regardless of the authors. Anyways. I rather focus on the arguments than speculating on topics that brings neither good nor harm such as reading stuff into stuff.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4894 - October 16, 2018, 12:55 PM
    Why don't you think he don't publish in English anymore (assuming he used to)?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4895 - October 16, 2018, 03:03 PM
    I think it is (possibly) a deal with his new university to be integrated  but to be low profile. As he was fired from Waterloo because (possibly) of his positions. I see not other logical reason.
    As I already said, a French scholar has been put aside of a huge place in France whereas he was already signed in colloquium at this place.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4896 - October 16, 2018, 03:11 PM
    Not sure. He is certainly very open with his views and does sugarcoat anything. As I said, he pulls no punches. Looking at his academia.edu page, you can see he has at least two articles arguing against Muhammad's historicity and the abstract are in English. His views about the Quran and Mecca are not less controversial and are well-known and public. That he does not have that many publications in English. The University of Saarland (Germany) - which is Kerr's new university - is known for radical revisionism in Islamic Studies, so him integrating and keeping a low profile does not make much sense to me.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4897 - October 16, 2018, 03:34 PM
    Quote
    Looking at his academia.edu page, you can see he has at least two articles arguing against Muhammad's historicity and the abstract are in English.


    Yes, it is what I exactly say. He was then in Waterloo University.

    Quote
    His views about the Quran and Mecca are not less controversial and are well-known and public. That he does not have that many publications in English.


     He was then in Waterloo University.

    Quote
    The University of Saarland (Germany) - which is Kerr's new university - is known for radical revisionism in Islamic Studies, so him integrating and keeping a low profile does not make much sense to me.


    Keeping a low profile is writing only in German. It was (probably) the deal. I see no other logical reason to this absence of English publication since his coming in the University of Saarland .
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4898 - October 16, 2018, 06:12 PM
    I found Kerr's argumentation very convincing.

    We should hold it up against Leiden's arguments. What were they again?

    1/ bin versus bar
    2/?
    3/?
    4/?

    Who can complete? this is a test! Cheesy
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4899 - October 16, 2018, 06:22 PM
    Altara,

    Concerning Hawting: Are all his confusion examples Quranic?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4900 - October 16, 2018, 06:47 PM
    Altara, Mahgraye and Yeezeeve, thanks for your response to my questions!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4901 - October 16, 2018, 07:11 PM
    No problem. If you have more, ask away.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4902 - October 16, 2018, 08:49 PM
    Quote from: mundi on October 16, 2018, 06:22 PM
    Altara,
    Seen that the vocabulary seems fixed and there were forced attempts to give it a place,
    Concerning Hawting: Are all his confusion examples Quranic?


    The 9th c. guys did not have a clear understanding of the Quranic words and some words derived from the Quran vocabulary (al-Ḥijr), or simply Quranic word (al-Masjid al-Haram, Maqam, etc)  that the (9th c.) guys try to apply to the place of  "Mecca" and his history (Abraham, etc) according to what say the Quran. The Hawting article just describe the mess, the contradictions, etc. in citing traditions which uses the words with different meaning of the other (9th c.) tradition guys! They do not know what they are talking about and the result is (totally) unintelligible from someone who is reading what these people say. Unintelligible mess.

     9th c. guys  try to make sense of the place "Mecca" in the "Hijaz" to explain the history of "Mecca/Zemzem"(Abraham, etc) trying to understand the Quranic words and the account they have (Zubayr, etc). They believe (in good faith) that this story (Abraham, Zemzem etc) is "true", like they believe (in good faith) that the Arabic conquests are the result of the action of a "prophet" (responsible of the production of the Quran)  in contact with God in Mecca/Medina/Zem Zem  whereas there is no relation (at all ) between"prophet" "Quran" and  the conquest  as there is other (natural and political) events (sourced) which have happened to explain them.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4903 - October 17, 2018, 05:35 AM
    Quote
    Keeping a low profile is writing only in German. It was (probably) the deal. I see no other logical reason to this absence of English publication since his coming in the University of Saarland.


    Seems that this is too some extent speculation (too some extent) and thus I abstain from making any further remarks. For me, the important thing is that he is honest, open, about his opinions. Regardless, he going to publish in ENglihs soon anyways. Thanks.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4904 - October 17, 2018, 08:35 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on October 15, 2018, 11:02 PM
    Jewish  women DO NOT rub themselves against a stone in order to get more fertile

    But did you see Muslim women rub themselves against a stone in order to get more fertile?


    They used to do that ; they were even turning around the Ka'ba half naked (as the story goes).

    Quote
    Hmm are they Muslim men or  Muslim women flocking to touch that black stone in the videos to get d=fertile??


    Nope, it has been islamized but they are touching it and the core meaning under it, though hidden by the so called hadith about Muhammad kissing the stone, is fertility.
      
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4905 - October 17, 2018, 08:57 AM
    Quote
    Seems that this is too some extent speculation


    Conjectures grounded by some interesting and logical elements. I've already said which ones.

    I'd be more interested about what you can say regarding what I say about the paper of Hawting, describing the mess of the 9th c. and 10th c. Muslim sources about their understanding of :
    1/a. Maqam Ibrahim.
    2/b. Al-Ḥijr.
    3/c. Al-Ḥaṭīm.
    4/d. Al-Masjid al-Haram
    5/e. Al-Rukn.

    You are not able to dispute his paper (until now) and you wait for the Anthony one (by the way, do you have reference on this information?)
    My issue is that Hawting (30 years after) commits another paper on the same topic :
    Sanctuary and Text : How Can We Make Sense of the Evidence About the Pre-Islamic and Early Islamic History of the Meccan Sanctuary ?  ;
    This paper is published in Die Koranhermeneutik von Günter Lüling To be published:  November 2018
    https://www.degruyter.com/view/product/503153#

    So to what paper Anthony is responding? The one of 82 or this one? Both? (yawn..)



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4906 - October 17, 2018, 09:48 AM
    Kerr on 71: 23 and the prediluvian gods of the quran :

    http://www.academia.edu/37482576/Koranisches_G%C3%B6ttermanagement_II_Die_G%C3%B6tter_Noahs

    His conclusion is that these verses originated in the Syro-mesopotamian area and have of course nothing to do with the deluge or the hijaz.

    Interesting article, in German again...
    But he brings extra elements to place the origin of the Quran more to the North, just as he did in his facebook M.L. contribution.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4907 - October 17, 2018, 09:52 AM
    I have nothing to say. My knowledge on this topic is very limited and that is why I have not said anything. To be completely honest, I did not even read or follow the discussion here at all. I am not sure why you think that I suppose waiting for Anthony to refute Hawting or that I am not able to dispute what the latter wrote 30 years ago. I am simply not competent enough to rebut him but again, I never intended nor had the desire to do so in the first. No dog in this fight. Frankly, I don't even know what Hawting wrote. As to Anthony, he told me that he going to publish a rebuttal to Hawting's old paper in 2 years. Since there is a new one, he might incorporate that as well.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4908 - October 17, 2018, 09:55 AM
    Kerr paper is indeed interesting. He writes that the accosiotators are Christans and not pagans.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4909 - October 17, 2018, 10:06 AM
    Quote from: Marc S on October 17, 2018, 08:35 AM
    They used to do that ; they were even turning around the Ka'ba half naked (as the story goes).

    please give some  link as proof either from hadith or STORY LINK...plenty of stories were floated on Islam from all sides....
     
    Quote
    Nope, it has been islamized but they are touching it and the core meaning under it, though hidden by the so called hadith about Muhammad kissing the stone, is fertility. 

    true   there is hadith on .....I say .. you say .. story statement in hadith about alleged prophet touching and kissing  black stone ..  but I have not heard that fertility story on that stone...  link please...

     and on the way let me add that hadith..

    Quote
    Ibn 'Umar said: "Allah's Messenger (saws) faced the Black Stone, touched it, and then placed his lips on it and wept for a long time." The Prophet (saws) then said: 'This is the place where one should shed tears.'''

    Reported by Al-Hakim.   Ibn Hibban has reported in his Sahih that the Prophet (saws) said:

    "(Making supplications near) the Black Stone and the Yemeni corner cause the sins to be forgiven."

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4910 - October 17, 2018, 10:09 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on October 17, 2018, 09:55 AM
    Kerr paper is indeed interesting. He writes that the accosiotators are Christans and not pagans.

    what is the difference?  they are all silly stories and beliefs.....
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4911 - October 17, 2018, 10:11 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on October 17, 2018, 09:52 AM
    ............... I am simply not competent enough to rebut him but again, I never intended nor had the desire to do so in the first............

    never intended.....  no desire is ok.,  but the other part is wrong..........
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4912 - October 17, 2018, 10:18 AM
    Hawting-Anthony:

    So Anthony does not agree with Hawting? Why is Anthony so eager to prove the narrative? What is his dog in the fight?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4913 - October 17, 2018, 10:20 AM
    Quote
    So Anthony does not agree with Hawting? Why is Anthony so eager to prove the narrative? What is his dog in the fight?


    He has no dog. He simply disagrees with Hawting, somone he respects.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4914 - October 17, 2018, 10:25 AM
    Just remembered that Hawting has another paper soon to be published by Inarah entitled "The Meccan Sanctuary and the Quran"
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4915 - October 17, 2018, 10:45 AM
    Anthony can of course "just disagree"but we know of his other positions and they usually support the Mecca/Hijaz origin in every way. He will give a detail here and there, but will never touch the fundamentals.

    But as you say, it might be his honest opinion.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4916 - October 17, 2018, 10:45 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on October 17, 2018, 10:06 AM
    please give some  link as proof either from hadith or STORY LINK...plenty of stories were floated on Islam from all sides....


    I will look but I can't promise as I might have read it on a website rather than in a book.

    Quote
    true   there is hadith on .....I say .. you say .. story statement in hadith about alleged prophet touching and kissing  black stone ..  but I have not heard that fertility story on that stone...  link please...


    I never said that, in islam, this is linked with fertility. I am telling you that this is the core meaning in pagan rituals. It has been islamized so the true meaning is now lost to muslims.

    Read this excerpt from John Damascus on islam ; it does make the link with Aphrodite who is the goddess of fertility.

    John of Damascus writing in the 730s A.D. notes:
    “They [Muslims] call us associators (hetairiastas) because, they say, we introduce to God an associate by saying Christ is the Son of God and God. To them we say that the prophets and the scripture have transmitted this, and you, as you affirm, accept the prophets …
    Again we say to them: “How, when you say that Christ is the Word and Spirit of God, do you revile us as associators? For the Word and the Spirit are inseparable … So we call you mutilators (koptas) of God … They misrepresent us as idolaters because we prostrate ourselves before the cross, which they loathe.
    And we say to them: “Why then do you rub yourselves on a stone at your Ka’ba (Chabatha) and hail the stone with fond kisses?” … This, then, which they call “stone,” is the head of Aphrodite, whom they used to worship and whom they call Chabar.”



  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4917 - October 17, 2018, 10:46 AM
    It is his honest opinion. Nothing wrong with it. That is like saying "why is Hawting so eager to disprove the narrative". Simple scholarly disagreement. A lot of things discusses here are not so black and white as some make it out to be.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4918 - October 17, 2018, 10:54 AM
    Quote from: mundi on October 17, 2018, 09:48 AM
    Kerr on 71: 23 and the prediluvian gods of the quran :

    http://www.academia.edu/37482576/Koranisches_G%C3%B6ttermanagement_II_Die_G%C3%B6tter_Noahs

    His conclusion is that these verses originated in the Syro-mesopotamian area and have of course nothing to do with the deluge or the hijaz.


    Of course.

    Quote
    But he brings extra elements to place the origin of the Quran more to the North, just as he did in his facebook M.L. contribution.


    Further North is scribal civilization where nobody allude to one guy talking with God.  End of story. The Quran has not the origin pretended (Mecca/Medina/Kaba) This origin is a religious belief like the resurrection of Jesus. And nothing else.

    As I'm not reading German, I do not know what say exactly Kerr about  Q 71,23. But (to me..) I know why the authors are using contemporary Arab gods in the time of Noah (lol!!!) There is an excellent purpose to all of this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #4919 - October 17, 2018, 11:01 AM
    well  "honest belief" may be a  right wording in this Mahgraye 's post
    Quote from: Mahgraye on October 17, 2018, 10:46 AM
    It is his honest   BELIEF opinion. Nothing wrong with it. That is like saying "why is Hawting so eager to disprove the narrative". Simple scholarly disagreement. A lot of things discusses here are not so black and white as some make it out to be.


    Terrible lack of Evidence based education  to the students seems to be the reason why university educational departments that explore "religions, history , theology "  have many faculty members believing in faith books and their stories..

    off course donated money   to these universities  from totalitarian regimes that live and feed on faiths of innocent people play a big part of the game  
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
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