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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5070 - January 25, 2019, 03:40 PM
    Altara,

    Quote
    for the soldatesque the ideology is plundering and pillaging


    I agree that the ideologic direction is set out by the leaders. My remarks are applicable to the leadership: they must have had a strong ideology keeping them together and apart from the conquered.

    You mention quite a lot of sources that are new to me. I'll try to look things up.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5071 - January 25, 2019, 06:32 PM
    Quote from: Altara on January 25, 2019, 11:24 AM
    It is (very) improbable that a great city of commerce  as recounted by Ibn Ishaq (great merchant and travellers ...)  and  et al. was not documented in an area which is heavily scribal from Edessa to Egypt and Iraq  until  and including Yemen and Ethiopia.


    Hello  Altara...how are you doing ..  .......Happy oold years to all of you guys....

    i  wonder on that   "recounted by Ibn Ishaq (great merchant and travellers)"  ..  is that a book written by   Ibn Ishaq??  or  are your referring to that book    Sirat Rasoul Allah by Ibn Ishaq ??

    ***********************************************************************************
    Muḥammad ibn Isḥāq ibn Yasār ibn Khiyār  ...Born   704 AD  in Medina  and Died   761–770 AD
     Baghdad
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5072 - January 25, 2019, 07:05 PM
    Quote from: mundi on January 25, 2019, 06:51 AM
    Marc,

    If there was no different ideology holding the conquerors together, they would have gone up in the existing culture. They would have taken up one of the established religions of their conquered people. The fact that they stayed differentiated and continued their conquest West and East proves that from the beginning there was an ideology keeping them together.

    I wonder how much of that ideology was adapted from the Quran, or how much of that ideology was absorbed in the Quran.


    They were motivated by looting and power at first so their fuel was no religious ideology that they wanted to spread, but it doesn't mean they didn't have their own. Now, it doesn't even mean they had the same ideology. Were Mu'awiya or his son Yazid described as perfect muslims ? Sources tell us that arabs often fought among themselves.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5073 - January 25, 2019, 07:21 PM
    Hi Yeez! Glad you're back.


    Marc,

    Archeology shows that the conquests are not accompanied by big destruction and that most cities seem to be taken over with not much fighting.

    I am sure the conquerors were motivated by bounty and riches but apparently they were quite good administrators managing to do that with cooperation of the locals.

    Compare the Germanic tribes conquering the Roman empire. They took over the religion and the culture and were proud of it.

    The  Arabs must have had an own culture in which a new ideology found a place to impose it on  established Christianity and Judaism. Difficult to explain otherwise.

    Were the first conquerors Muslims as we see them later on? Clearly not. But from the start they were apart...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5074 - January 25, 2019, 10:18 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on January 25, 2019, 06:32 PM
    Hello  Altara...how are you doing ..  .......Happy oold years to all of you guys....

    i  wonder on that   "recounted by Ibn Ishaq (great merchant and travellers)"  ..  is that a book written by   Ibn Ishaq??  or  are your referring to that book    Sirat Rasoul Allah by Ibn Ishaq ??

    ***********************************************************************************
    Muḥammad ibn Isḥāq ibn Yasār ibn Khiyār  ...Born   704 AD  in Medina  and Died   761–770 AD
     Baghdad


    Hello Yeez, welcome back and Happy new year!
    I refer to Ibn Hisham recension of the Iraqi Ibn Ishaq  (d.767) lost book  Sirat Rasoul Allah .
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5075 - January 25, 2019, 10:40 PM
    Quote from: mundi on January 25, 2019, 07:21 PM
    Hi Yeez! Glad you're back.


    Marc,


    I am sure the conquerors were motivated by bounty and riches but apparently they were quite good administrators managing to do that with cooperation of the locals.


    Ok. Which Arabs are capable of doing that? Unknowns from an unknown city  of a barren desert, or others who used to do it since ages and which are sourced?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5076 - January 26, 2019, 01:49 PM
    Quote
    Quote from: yeezevee on January 25, 2019, 06:32 PM
    Hello  Altara...how are you doing ..  .......Happy oold years to all of you guys....

    i  wonder on that   "recounted by Ibn Ishaq (great merchant and travellers)"  ..  is that a book written by   Ibn Ishaq??  or  are your referring to that book    Sirat Rasoul Allah by Ibn Ishaq ??

    ***********************************************************************************
    Muammad ibn Isq ibn Yasr ibn Khiyr  ...Born   704 AD  in Medina  and Died   761–770 AD
     Baghdad

    Quote from: Altara on January 25, 2019, 10:18 PM
    Hello Yeez, welcome back and Happy new year!
    I refer to Ibn Hisham recension of the Iraqi Ibn Ishaq  (d.767) lost book  Sirat Rasoul Allah .


    Oh I see .. thank you .,   well let me put a pdf link of that book here


    and that guy who translated that book is   Ibn Hisham and Abdus-Salam M Harun  from Egypt   ...Every intellectual from  Arabian peninsula  are from  "Ibns" from Ibn  tribe.. I wonder about the origin of that word
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5077 - January 26, 2019, 03:43 PM
    Karl-Friedrich Pohlmann (2018) - Militanz und Antimilitanz im Koran: Historisch-kritische Untersuchungen zur Korangenese und zu den Ursprüngen des militanten Islam

    https://www.aschendorff-buchverlag.de/listview?ssearch=1&search_stichwort=Militanz+und+Antimilitanz+im+Koran

    Quote
    Gewalt im Islam – dieses Thema entfacht seit Langem leidenschaftliche Debatten auf allen Ebenen. Dazu liefert diese Studie jetzt einen wissenschaftlichen Beitrag mit höchst bemerkens werten Erträgen: Pohlmann kommt zu dem Ergebnis, dass die Textbereiche und Textfolgen zum Themenkomplex »Militanz und Antimilitanz im Koran« eine Konfl iktkonstellation innerhalb der koranischen Gemeinde nach dem Tod des »Gesandten« widerspiegeln. Die Militanz propagierenden Passagen im Koran sind späte Interpolationen und kollidieren als ein »Fremdkörper« mit der Grundkonzeption koranischer Frömmigkeit. Ihre Autoren haben bereits die kriegerischen Entwicklungen auf der arabischen Halbinsel nach dem Rückzug der byzantinischen Ordnungsmacht im Blick. Ihre Textprodukte zielen letztlich darauf ab, den koranischen Glauben samt der entsprechenden friedfertigen Frömmigkeitspraxis zu einer Herrschaft stabilisierenden sowie Macht und Gewalt legitimierenden Religion, zur Religion eines zu organisierenden Imperiums umzugestalten. Bekanntlich wird der gesamte Inhalt des Korans muslimischerseits bislang ausnahmslos von Mohammed hergeleitet. Dass dies keinesfalls stimmen muss, legt Pohlmann in dieser Untersuchung dar. Er wendet wie bereits in seinem früheren Band über »Die Entstehung des Korans« konsequent den Methodenapparat historischkritischer Textanalysen an, wie das in der heutigen Bibelwissenschaft Standard ist, in den sogenannten westlichen akademischen Koranwissenschaften dagegen noch eher eine Seltenheit.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5078 - January 26, 2019, 03:44 PM
    Haha I just saw that Guillaume Dye is following the Twitter account of the forum! I think is here as well as a reader. Welcome Guillaume!  Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5079 - January 26, 2019, 03:46 PM
    Interesting. It was through Prof. Dye's tweet that I found about Pholmann's most recent book.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5080 - January 26, 2019, 03:49 PM
    Seems that Prof. Dye is not the only one following the forum on Twitter, being joined by other scholars as Reynolds, Morris, Holland, Wood, and Lafontaine. Even Nassim Nicholas Taleb follows the forum.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5081 - January 26, 2019, 04:46 PM
    Altara,

    Quote
    Ok. Which Arabs are capable of doing that? Unknowns from an unknown city  of a barren desert, or others who used to do it since ages and which are sourced?


    Right, makes it highly doubtful the conquerors came out of the wilderness!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5082 - January 26, 2019, 05:13 PM
    Magrayye,

    Quote
    Karl-Friedrich Pohlmann (2018) - Militanz und Antimilitanz im Koran: Historisch-kritische Untersuchungen zur Korangenese und zu den Ursprüngen des militanten Islam


    Interesting resumé. So I understand that Pohlmann says that the "violence verses" are later additions to suit the conquest and to legitimise power and violence.

    He also sees the Quran detached from the life of Mohammed.


    Any comments from your part?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5083 - January 26, 2019, 05:36 PM
    Yeah. He postulates post-Muhammadan interpolations and multiple authors. As to his recent thesis that the so-called violent verses are later additions, then I don't know. The proportion doesn't sound unfamiliar. Some might be such as this one (Q 9:29, maybe), but I not sure if this applies to all the verses dealing with violence. I guess it depends on how you envision the earliest community of Muslims.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5084 - January 26, 2019, 05:45 PM
    François Déroche (2019) - Le Coran, une histoire plurielle: Essai sur la formation du texte coranique

    Quote
    L’authenticité d’un canon est une question essentielle pour toutes les religions où un écrit tient une place centrale. Mais alors que, pour d’autres confessions, la vérité du message s’accommode de variations dans la formulation, telle n’est pas la position du dogme musulman, qui considère que le texte canonique du Coran, qu’il soit récité par les fidèles ou consigné sur les exemplaires d’abord manuscrits et par la suite imprimés, reflète très scrupuleusement la parole divine conservée sur un original céleste.

    À rebours de cette conviction, qui s’est peu à peu affirmée dans les premiers siècles de l’islam avant de s’imposer complètement, des données empruntées à la tradition musulmane permettent, par recoupement avec les indications tirées de l’examen des plus anciens manuscrits coraniques, de constater que la pluralité a caractérisé la genèse du Coran et sa transmission initiale, tant écrite qu’orale.

    En analysant différentes strates de la version qui s’est imposée, mais aussi les fragments de recensions qui ont progressivement été écartées, François Déroche montre que le Coran est resté longtemps ouvert à une pluralité de « lectures » et révèle un rapport originel de la communauté des fidèles à son égard très différent du littéralisme absolu vers lequel l’orthodoxie musulmane a évolué. Cette histoire riche et complexe fait également apparaître un Mu?ammad plus soucieux du sens du message qu’il annonçait que de sa lettre.


    http://www.seuil.com/ouvrage/le-coran-une-histoire-plurielle-francois-deroche/9782021412529
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5085 - January 26, 2019, 06:17 PM
    Maggraye,

    On Pohlmann:

    The first layer of the Quran doesn't necessarily need to reflect on the earliest muslim communities.  I think Gallez'explanation that it involves other purpose texts, collected in a hurry (so with not much redaction , not really relevant to the community) could be a realistic scenario?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5086 - January 26, 2019, 06:22 PM
    I actually had Gallez in mind when writing my response. This is because of Gallez thinks, if I am not mistaken, that the earliest community had their minds on Jerusalem and were warmongering. Now, this could be an inaccurate representation of his thesis (his thesis is much more complicated than I previously thought), so I don't know. For Gallez, the purpose of these early and quick drafts was public preaching for the purpose of convincing the neighboring Arabs. So in sense, it does tie to the nature of the early community and their beliefs. As to your question, I do think the earliest layers reflect at least the nature of the authors, if not the community (the community could have emerged later). Not sure if this rambling made any sense.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5087 - January 26, 2019, 06:37 PM
    Quote from: mundi on January 26, 2019, 04:46 PM
    Altara,

    Right, makes it highly doubtful the conquerors came out of the wilderness!


    Check the sources!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5088 - January 26, 2019, 06:40 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on January 26, 2019, 05:36 PM
    Yeah. He postulates post-Muhammadan interpolations and multiple authors. As to his recent thesis that the so-called violent verses are later additions, then I don't know. The proportion doesn't sound unfamiliar. Some might be such as this one (Q 9:29, maybe), but I not sure if this applies to all the verses dealing with violence. I guess it depends on how you envision the earliest community of Muslims.


    Yet the Quran say why there is possible violence. Suffice to read it. There is one sole reason.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5089 - January 26, 2019, 06:43 PM
    Altara,

    Quote
    Check the sources!


    An answer like this doesnt move the discussion forwards. The discussion would be much better served if you spell out what you think and explain why...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5090 - January 26, 2019, 06:46 PM
    Altara,

    Quote
    Yet the Quran say why there is possible violence. Suffice to read it. There is one sole reason.


    Pohlmann says this violence in the Quran is as support for the developing empire and the conquests. I guess that is central to his thesis. So you agree?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5091 - January 26, 2019, 06:58 PM
    Not at all.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5092 - January 26, 2019, 07:26 PM
    Quote
    There is one sole reason.


    Can you please share that reason?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5093 - January 26, 2019, 07:29 PM
    Stephen Shoemaker (2018) - “Anastasius of Sinai and the Beginnings of Islam”

    Quote
    The collection of Edifying Tales made by Anastasius of Sinai is an extremely informative yet almost entirely overlooked source for understanding the beginnings of Islam. Anastasius made this collection, it would seem, sometime before 690 CE at the latest, and its stories have much to tell about day-to-day relations between Christians and Muslims during the first half-century after the Muslim conquests. Likewise, their reports raise some fundamental questions about the nature of Islam during its earliest history.


    Available: https://bit.ly/2Ti2PwI
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5094 - January 26, 2019, 07:51 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on January 26, 2019, 07:26 PM
    Can you please share that reason?


    Nope dear Mahgraye. As I (already) said it suffices to read the Quran. Carefully, of course. And you will find it, I'm pretty sure of that. Tell us when it wilt be the case.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5095 - January 26, 2019, 07:54 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on January 26, 2019, 07:29 PM
    Stephen Shoemaker (2018) - “Anastasius of Sinai and the Beginnings of Islam”

    Available: https://bit.ly/2Ti2PwI


    Yes the testimony of Anastasius of Sinai is very interesting about the muhagirun he encounters. Nothing to see with what will be said of the "first" Muslims in the 9th narratives.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5096 - January 26, 2019, 08:30 PM
    Thank you M for sharing this!

    Stephen Shoemaker (2018) - “Anastasius of Sinai and the Beginnings of Islam”

    Notice Altara how much fun it is when people actually share their sources instead of talking in riddles?

    Indeed very interesting. Shows clearly that from the start the conquerors had their own strong ideology, probably very different from 9C one, but very distinct from Christianity.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5097 - January 26, 2019, 08:57 PM
    Quote from: mundi on January 26, 2019, 06:43 PM
    Altara,

    An answer like this doesnt move the discussion forwards. The discussion would be much better served if you spell out what you think and explain why...


    It does. They have the responses you search. And it is better that you found it yourself rather that someone else tell you and influencing you. There is no riddle here, just to look at the sources commented by many authors about Arabs people of Late Orient and what are their occupations where they are.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5098 - January 26, 2019, 09:13 PM
    Altara,

    I didnt realise I was in class in this forum  Huh?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5099 - January 26, 2019, 09:33 PM
    In a certain way you are. Since you posing questions. Therefore I think the best way to have certain responses you ask is to find it yourself because what is at stake in this general topic necessitates a minimum of homework in order to avoid to get responses from others.  Edit : You can get an academia account and commence to search.
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