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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5130 - February 05, 2019, 03:55 PM


    Hi  mundi look at that architecture ...   that is a good one to visit ..  still standing tall

    Quote
    mundi says:  Look at all the early mosques (Ayla, Qastal...) for sure built in mid 7th C. They have distinct features including a mihrab. Clearly they are not churches and that in a Christian conquered environment. Conquerors don't seem to have taken over the Christian buildings but built their own.

    If they were just a different kind of Christians they would have taken over existing buildings. They didnt. They set up their own.


    Hi mundi.,  in support of your statement., can you add some pictures of Churches from 7th century Jordan?? And  what do you see in that picture

    Anyways this  paper is worth reading..
     Archaeological Sources for the History of Palestine: Palestine in the Early Islamic Period  by   Robert Schick   from  Near Eastern Archaeology, Vol. 61, No. 2 (Jun., 1998), pp. 74-108
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5131 - February 05, 2019, 04:04 PM
    Hi Yeez,

    Thanks for link. I will read. We know Muslims took over christian buildings later on and the Aya Sophia is a famous example of that, but they did not do that in the 7th C.

    Have a look at this link. Look up Ayla, Qastal, Jerash and others: http://thesacredcity.ca/data/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5132 - February 05, 2019, 04:14 PM
    Quote
    Have a look at this link. Look up Ayla, Qastal, Jerash and others: http://thesacredcity.ca/data/


    my goodness gracious,  what is in that picture ?  i only see arrows ..and what proof do we have to consider the buildings/architecture/mosques/churches/temples/ palaces ..  etc..etc..  under  those arrows are  actually related to Islam??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5133 - February 05, 2019, 05:54 PM
    Quote from: mundi on February 05, 2019, 04:04 PM
    Hi Yeez,

    Thanks for link. I will read. We know Muslims took over christian buildings later on and the Aya Sophia is a famous example of that, but they did not do that in the 7th C.

    Have a look at this link. Look up Ayla, Qastal, Jerash and others: http://thesacredcity.ca/data/


    I would say that those mosks seem to be looking at the Sinai region in which we have sources saying that there was (were) arabs sacred place(s) there, and Petra is never quoted as one of them.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5134 - February 05, 2019, 06:01 PM
    Quote from: Altara on February 05, 2019, 02:44 PM
    Maybe yes,  maybe he is not already, as he have not real consistent informations about the "texts" (future "Quranic" ones) therefore of "Islam", as those who have the texts around him. They're all monotheists. ......... either he does not know that the texts his friends have, denial the Crucifixion, either it is a respectful visit because all the Jerusalem population is Christian or both.



    So he doesn't know as Commander of the Faithful that people around him have texts that go against the christian faith ? It doesn't sound possible except if those people are a very small minority.

    Let's not forget that islamic tradition tells us that Mu'awiya married 2 christian women from the Kalb tribe and his son Yazid is portrayed as un-islamic and some muslim sources even suggest he was raised as a christian.

    All this just makes someone pause and wonder.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5135 - February 05, 2019, 06:50 PM
    Marc,

    Quote
    I would say that those mosks seem to be looking at the Sinai region in which we have sources saying that there was (were) arabs sacred place(s) there, and Petra is never quoted as one of them.


    Ayla indeed points to Sinai, Qastal Jerash to Petra. I m not saying Petra was THE focal point. What I see is that Mecca isn't and neither is Jerusalem. And these mosques are very different from churches.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5136 - February 05, 2019, 06:53 PM
    Yeez,

    From Gibson's database it is easy to look up archeological reports for confirmation. Some ar emore convincing than others. The ones I mentioned are very convincing that they are early islamic.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5137 - February 05, 2019, 08:06 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on February 05, 2019, 06:01 PM
    So he doesn't know as Commander of the Faithful that people around him have texts that go against the christian faith ? It doesn't sound possible except if those people are a very small minority.

    You do not read what I said Marc : "A little part  (the elite) of  Arab conquerors comes (in the West) with Quranic texts (not necessary all)."
    They are plausibly  a small minority but besides of the military chiefs of the newcomers. It is them who indicates to build  the prayer building in the Temple Mount in 637. It is them who owns some Quranic texts ( (not necessary all)).

    Quote
    Let's not forget that islamic tradition tells us that Mu'awiya married 2 christian women from the Kalb tribe and his son Yazid is portrayed as un-islamic and some muslim sources even suggest he was raised as a christian.


    All is possible indeed.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5138 - February 05, 2019, 08:40 PM
    https://books.google.de/books?id=6oYCfWor5AIC&printsec=frontcover&hl=nl&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

    Fascinating overview of 5th C perceptions of Arabs in  Byzantine sources. The chapter treating Theodoret's writings (p148) makes clear that Arabs outside the limes were seen as Ishmaelites and that they themselves took pride in that identity.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5139 - February 05, 2019, 08:42 PM
    Quote
    Ahmed Amine is an interesting guy but he is a "believer" as Altara would say. No one has his book on the Dan Gibson 's Petra assumption?


    He is certainly interesting. Believer or not, he still wrote an interesting critique of Gallez's thesis that even Altara could accept in part. But yes, I think he is a Muslim or some conservative of sorts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5140 - February 05, 2019, 08:45 PM
    https://twitter.com/mayshaddel/status/1054329213929562113?lang=bg

    A coin dated to the reign of Muʿāwiya ibn Abī Sufyān has the Cross removed. Perhaps relevant to speculation of Muʿāwiya professed religious identity since some assume that he was a Christain of sorts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5141 - February 05, 2019, 09:13 PM
    Alfred-Louis de Prémare (2009) - Taʾsīs al-Islām: bayna al-kitāba wa-l-tārīkh

    Available: https://bit.ly/2Sa1nAa
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5142 - February 05, 2019, 09:32 PM
    Maybe Mu'awiya was the first secular ruler......................................More seriously, given the fact that he was seen favourably by christians, I doubt that the removal of the cross from coins was an anti-christian move from his side. There are other reasons that we know nothing about.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5143 - February 05, 2019, 09:33 PM
    https://www.academia.edu/38270742/Duries_Verdict_No_Mohammed

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5144 - February 05, 2019, 10:19 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on February 05, 2019, 08:42 PM
    He is certainly interesting. Believer or not, he still wrote an interesting critique of Gallez's thesis that even Altara could accept in part. But yes, I think he is a Muslim or some conservative of sorts.


    Of course. I'm not agree on Gallez's thesis. But nonetheless, it is a must read. I hope (without much hope... but one never knows!) that it'll be translated in English.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5145 - February 05, 2019, 10:25 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on February 05, 2019, 08:45 PM
    https://twitter.com/mayshaddel/status/1054329213929562113?lang=bg

    A coin dated to the reign of Muʿāwiya ibn Abī Sufyān has the Cross removed. Perhaps relevant to speculation of Muʿāwiya professed religious identity since some assume that he was a Christain of sorts.


    This kind of coin is very known, (cf. Heidmann). And yes when you build something in 637 on the Temple Mount and you do not destroy it from 640 to 680, it is probable that you're not Christian. As King in Damascus, it is probable as well that you visit the Golgotha being given that 90% of your population is Christian.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5146 - February 05, 2019, 10:29 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on February 05, 2019, 09:32 PM
    Maybe Mu'awiya was the first secular ruler......................................More seriously, given the fact that he was seen favourably by christians, I doubt that the removal of the cross from coins was an anti-christian move from his side. There are other reasons that we know nothing about.


    He was seen favourably because he did nothing against Christianity. Why? Probably his "friends" have not all the Quranic texts. As soon as they have it (Abd al Malik and the Dome inscriptions) things start to change.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5147 - February 05, 2019, 10:31 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on February 05, 2019, 09:33 PM
    https://www.academia.edu/38270742/Duries_Verdict_No_Mohammed




    I've seen the video. 12 minutes is not enough to see clearly what Durie thinks.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5148 - February 05, 2019, 10:38 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on February 05, 2019, 09:13 PM
    Alfred-Louis de Prémare (2009) - Taʾsīs al-Islām: bayna al-kitāba wa-l-tārīkh

    Available: https://bit.ly/2Sa1nAa


    Thanks dear Mahgraye for this marvellous book translated in Arabic! ,the English speaking world does not have it in English hahaha!
    The book in which you learn that Ali is not the amir al muminin of Mecca, nor Medina, nor Zem zem, nor Kaba nor Kinda, nor Yemen, but the amir of the logical city where he was from!

    By the way, de Prémare was in admiration with my Arabic accent... Hahaha! (it's true guys...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5149 - February 06, 2019, 12:19 AM
    Quote
    Thanks, dear Mahgraye, for this marvelous book translated in Arabic! The English speaking world does not have it in English, hahaha!


    No problem. Somewhat ironic that it is translated into Arabic of all languages but not into English. Reading these books in Arabic is certainly a joy, especially learning the Arabic equivalent of technical terms and arguments.

    Since you liked this, I will post other Western books that have been translated into Arabic.

    Quote
    By the way, de Prémare was in admiration with my Arabic accent... Hahaha! (it's true guys...)


    Haha. This is a fun and happy anecdote. Now I really want to hear you speak Arabic.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5150 - February 06, 2019, 07:30 AM
    No one interested in  5th C Arabs?

    Quote
    https://books.google.de/books?id=6oYCfWor5AIC&printsec=frontcover&hl=nl&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

    Fascinating overview of 5th C perceptions of Arabs in  Byzantine sources. The chapter treating Theodoret's writings (p148) makes clear that Arabs outside the limes were seen as Ishmaelites and that they themselves took pride in that identity.


    If this Ishmael idea was indeed deeply entrenched, the emergence of something like the Quran is not that strange?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5151 - February 06, 2019, 08:42 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on February 06, 2019, 12:19 AM
    No problem. Somewhat ironic that it is translated into Arabic of all languages but not into English. Reading these books in Arabic is certainly a joy, especially learning the Arabic equivalent of technical terms and arguments.


    Yes.

    Quote
    Since you liked this, I will post other Western books that have been translated into Arabic.

     
    Is there not a dedicated thread for books in the forum where it would be useful because here I think it is not really worth it.

    Quote
    Haha. This is a fun and happy anecdote. Now I really want to hear you speak Arabic.


     You'd be disapointed, I have a good accent but I speak very (very) badly and at the time with de Prémare he was surprised when I said to him that I did not learn Arabic!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5152 - February 07, 2019, 04:22 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye  says to Altara  on February 06, 2019, 12:19 AM

    ....Since you liked this, I will post other Western books that have been translated into Arabic.....

     

    yes yes addition of books in to the forum is very important . So here is the folder for that dear Mahgraye.,  and it is in Resource center .. The forum has plenty books as pdf files in it..

    Quote
    Altara says:  Is there not a dedicated thread for books in the forum where it would be useful because here I think it is not really worth it.

    and my question to Altara on early Islam....

    Hello Altara .. i am interested in knowing bit more of this wonderful Arab person happened born in Arabia


    her name was  Tumāḍir bint ʿAmr ibn al-Ḥareth ibn al-Sharīd al-Sulamīyah.. in short Al-Khansa.. that picture was    drawn in 1917    by Kahlil Gibran

    she was apparently Born    in 575.,   Najd, Arabia    and Died   645 (aged 69–70) Najd, Arabia  and she was a poet..   Clearly that time falls in to the life time alleged Prophet of Islam ..   who was ...BORN IN USA.. ......

    United states of Arabia .. in the year 571  and died in the year 632

    so i would appreciate any info on her from French Authors
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5153 - February 07, 2019, 04:53 PM
    Hi!
    Happy new year to all of you and thanks for all the interesting references.
    I have been so lucky to borrow from my library,  Routledge Handbook on Early Islam, 2018. I recommend it very much. It has helped me a lot in understanding early Islam. There are articles here by Fred Donner, Nicolai Sinai, Herbert Berg, Stephen Shoemaker, David Cook, Markus Gross, Pavel Pavlovich and others.
    The article by Pavlovich on  the sira is on the internet and it is interesting. He writes this in his conclusion:

    ".... A stringent methodology of studying the literary sources such as isnad-cum-matn analysis
    has brought us to the end of the l st century AH; attempts to cross this "magic threshold" have
    so far produced ambiguous results. Study of numi_smatic and epigraphic evidence suggests,
    quite objectively, that the figure of Mu]:iammad was infused with a new-found religious and
    political significance in the 680s, but, unfortunately, the present state of our data and scholarly
    rn.ethods of studying early Islam can barely establish a bridge to the 620s or earlier. "....


    ..... At the present stage of our knowledge, we may assert that the Arabian prophet was a historical figure, that he unleashed sweeping conquests, and that he led an eschatological community of a hybrid nature, comprising his followers alongside Jews and possibly Christians. But this is probably the farthest point
    to which positivist inroads into the Prophet's lifetime can presently take us."

    Do you have any comments on these quotes?
    You can download the article here: https://www.academia.edu/34914728/The_Sira_%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%B3%D9%8A%D8%B1%D8%A9_%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%86%D8%A8%D9%88%D9%8A%D8%A9_


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5154 - February 07, 2019, 04:55 PM
    Sounds about right but most people here would disagree. Still, it is better that they speak for themselves.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5155 - February 07, 2019, 05:44 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 07, 2019, 04:22 PM

    Hello Altara .. i am interested in knowing bit more of this wonderful Arab person happened born in Arabia
    her name was  Tumāḍir bint ʿAmr ibn al-Ḥareth ibn al-Sharīd al-Sulamīyah.. in short Al-Khansa.. that picture was    drawn in 1917    by Kahlil Gibran

    she was apparently Born    in 575.,   Najd, Arabia    and Died   645 (aged 69–70) Najd, Arabia  and she was a poet..   Clearly that time falls in to the life time alleged Prophet of Islam ..   who was ...BORN IN USA.. ......
    United states of Arabia .. in the year 571  and died in the year 632
    so i would appreciate any info on her from French Authors


    Yeez, unfortunately I do not know French authors about this figure. Figure that I did not know!  What I've found is the French Wikipedia which is a copy of the English one.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5156 - February 07, 2019, 05:57 PM
    Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on February 07, 2019, 04:53 PM
    Hi!
    Happy new year to all of you and thanks for all the interesting references.
    I have been so lucky to borrow from my library,  Routledge Handbook on Early Islam, 2018. I recommend it very much. It has helped me a lot in understanding early Islam. There are articles here by Fred Donner, Nicolai Sinai, Herbert Berg, Stephen Shoemaker, David Cook, Markus Gross, Pavel Pavlovich and others.
    The article by Pavlovich on  the sira is on the internet and it is interesting. He writes this in his conclusion:
    ..... At the present stage of our knowledge, we may assert that the Arabian prophet was a historical figure,

    Happy new year Asbjoern!

     As Mahgraye said it, it  is not convincing for me. The only thing it asserts is that a story of the Quranic figure "Muhammad" taken to be the person the Biblical God was speaking to in the text was recounted at that time, nothing else. I do not dispute that the story was recounted. I dispute that  the story was "historical facts". (No Mecca/Medina, etc.) So  that the Quranic texts are coming from this story which explains its emergence.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5157 - February 07, 2019, 06:05 PM
    Hi Bjoern!

    I think you selected  all common sense quotes.

    That Mohammed also had Christian and Jewish "followers" seems stretching it. The conquerors probably had them in their army but not sure that we can assume that the religious component was important to all.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5158 - February 07, 2019, 06:12 PM
    Quote from: mundi on February 06, 2019, 07:30 AM
    No one interested in  5th C Arabs?


    It seems very well documented, especially in the West. Less but good in the East.

    Quote
    If this Ishmael idea was indeed deeply entrenched, the emergence of something like the Quran is not that strange?


    Can you elaborate?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5159 - February 07, 2019, 06:26 PM
    Hi Altara.

    You write:
    " So the Quranic texts are coming from this story."

    What did you mean by that?
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