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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5700 - March 03, 2019, 04:01 PM
    Maghraye,

    What is the muslim position then? The rasm is constant (without long vowels), all the rest can vary?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5701 - March 03, 2019, 05:14 PM
    Marc and Altara,

    Why don't you both help us out with what the significance is of the "Darajbird coins"? I think all will benefit.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5702 - March 03, 2019, 06:05 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 03, 2019, 03:42 PM
    Lecture by Fred M. Donner (2019) - “Islam's Origins: Myth and Material Evidence”

    https://vimeo.com/315189668

    Interesting video, I feel Donner (maybe I'm wrong...) I'm at the beginning... (very) embarrassing, because he his historian (and not translator like Shaddellol...). He knows that there is a big problem ( moreover he was the first to rise one, YET it did not prevent him to continue with the narrative of the 9th c.  "business as usual"... )  35 years for that... And he still cannot make sense of it.  "We cannot throw out the narrative of the 9th c.! "Why not Fred? 1bn people, oil, etc. Ha, ok!...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5703 - March 03, 2019, 06:06 PM
    He gives his reasons further in the video.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5704 - March 03, 2019, 06:06 PM
    Quote from: mundi on March 03, 2019, 05:14 PM
    Marc and Altara,

    Why don't you both help us out with what the significance is of the "Darajbird coins"? I think all will benefit.


    Quote from: mundi on March 03, 2019, 05:14 PM
    Marc and Altara,

    Why don't you both help us out with what the significance is of the "Darajbird coins"? I think all will benefit.


    First you can post the image here maybe Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5705 - March 03, 2019, 06:07 PM
    And he points to problems in the narrative and rejects parts of it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5706 - March 03, 2019, 09:03 PM
    Quote from: Altara on March 03, 2019, 06:05 PM
      "We cannot throw out the narrative of the 9th c.! "Why not Fred? 1bn people, oil, etc. Ha, ok!...



    Because he doesn't have a better explanation ; I don't think he cares about oil or whatever.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5707 - March 03, 2019, 09:05 PM
    Quote from: mundi on March 03, 2019, 05:14 PM
    Marc and Altara,

    Why don't you both help us out with what the significance is of the "Darajbird coins"? I think all will benefit.


    Well, what does Popp highlights when he refers to them ?  it is linked to the title amir al mu'minin and to the dating system of those coins ; 2 very important issues.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5708 - March 03, 2019, 09:36 PM
    Marc,

    Quote
    Well, what does Popp highlights when he refers to them ?  it is linked to the title amir al mu'minin and to the dating system of those coins ; 2 very important issues.


    Prove that you are not Altara, and tell us all about it!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5709 - March 03, 2019, 09:52 PM
    I am giving way too many clues to be Altara  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

    Anyway, if you read Popp, he only highlights that :

    - coins minted in Darajbird do confirm who is in power so what does it tell you regarding Ibn Al Zubayr vs the muslim narrative ?

    - he also highlights that scholars follow the muslim narrative to understand the proper dating of those coins when refering to the amir al mu'minin but he doesn't agree and says that they should be read with the same dating system (the Hijri calendar) ; again what does it tell you for Ibn Al Zubayr and also Mu'awiya vs the muslim narrative ? Here, however, Popp could be wrong but then it creates an issue vs the usual narrative that no scholar does address (because they have no clue and it is easier for them).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5710 - March 03, 2019, 10:21 PM
    Quote
    Quote from: mundi  says on March 03, 2019, 05:14 PM
    Marc and Altara,

    Why don't you both help us out with what the significance is of the "Darajbird coins"? I think all will benefit.

      and Altara winks
    Quote from: Altara on March 03, 2019, 06:06 PM
    First you can post the image here maybe Wink



    well..  mundi I will help anyone or all of you IF YOU COULD BUY ME THE COINS YOU SEE IN THIS PDF FILE

    So mundi where those coins  were found?  I  mean geographical area..  Any way I am more interested  in  Mahgraye"  post on that Sleazy guy

    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 02, 2019, 06:32 PM
    He is an illiterate, degenerate, dishonest, individual. That is why I do not like him. Besides, he is not a Muslim at all. A complete heretic and an apostate by Muslim standards.


    i fully agree with you what  you said on that RASCAL  "Nahiem Ajmal"   .. indeed  he is degenerate, dishonest    illiterate, imbecile Idiot of Islamic scriptures.    understanding  origins of Islam and   Islam as Faith..

    but but  I disagree with the words i crossed out in your post...  So questions to you are..  in your view

    Who  is a Muslim and Who is not a Muslim?? What actually you mean by heretic Muslim?  Are Shias heretic Muslims?  and Whom do you consider as an apostate of Islam??

    with best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5711 - March 03, 2019, 10:22 PM
    What is the significance of this Dārābjird coin, again? Popp's reconstruction and postulations are so foreign, obtuse, dark, radical, etc., etc., I do not know what to think of them. Genuinely confused. Can someone, please, explain his hypotheses in a lucid manner and point out what is worth our attention? Popp also postulates that early Islam was some form of pre-Nicene, Syrian Christianity, somehow related to the Persian empire. Is this conceivable? Gallez has written a scathing review of Popp and the Inarah school, and he does make some interesting remarks. 
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5712 - March 03, 2019, 10:34 PM
    Quote
    Who is a Muslim and Who is not a Muslim?? What actually you mean by heretic Muslim?  Are Shias heretic Muslims?  and Whom do you consider as an apostate of Islam??


    A Muslims who espouses heresies. By Sunni standards, yes, Shias are heretics. Whom do I consider an apostate? Abu Layth.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5713 - March 03, 2019, 10:55 PM
    Popp uses the Darajbird coins as follows :

    - they are the proof of the eastern origins of the so-called muslims,

    - he also highlights the dating system ; for scholars, the Mu'awiya coin follow the Hijri calendar (and agree with the muslim narrative about the crowning of Mu'awiya) but then, for the same scholars, the Ibn Al Zubayr coin follow the Yazdgard III dating system (which help to agree with the muslim narrative dates about Ibn Al Zubayr caliphate),

    - for Popp, this is incoherent and the Ibn Al Zubayr coin follow the hijri calendar and therefore throw off the muslim narrative as pure fiction,

    - one can agree with Popp here because why would the muslims, especially one as pious as Al Zubayr, would disregard the hijri calendar to that of a sassanid king ; scholars do not explain this ,

    - on the other hand, Popp might be wrong but then what does it say about Ibn Al Zubayr ? Was he really a muslim or was he a persian who was "mulism-ized" for the needs of the muslim narrative ? (I think this assumption is explored in an Inrah book unfortunately not translated in English so I cannot comment on this so far) ; that could be a valid assumption, especially when one notes that when Yazdgard III was killed, he was buried by christian monks who made an eulogy in his name  ; this does seem strange if we think about the sassanian kings as being zoroastrain but Popp, and others, think that Koshrau II was a christian (his favourite wife was at least) and if we know that one armenian chronicle states that Muhammad was from Reyy and a persian, we have much food for thoughts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5714 - March 03, 2019, 11:07 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 03, 2019, 10:22 PM
    Gallez has written a scathing review of Popp and the Inarah school, and he does make some interesting remarks. 


    I remember Gallez desmolishing the assumption that Muhammad was a title for Jesus, which I agree (Muhammad is the Mahdi, not the Messiah).

    His other arguments are not convincing , especially when he states that his Judeo-Nazarene assumption about the origins of Islam is the proper explanations for the Arab rise.

    It is funny to see that Gallez attended a Inarah forum in 2018 and his work was included in one of their books despite the fact that Gallez criticized their work.  Huh? Huh? Huh?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5715 - March 03, 2019, 11:08 PM
    Quote
    It is funny to see that Gallez attended an Inarah forum in 2018 and his work was included in one of their books despite the fact that Gallez criticized their work.


    Haha. How did you know that he attended the conference? Any further details?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5716 - March 03, 2019, 11:09 PM
    well  those coins that come all the way from down south of Persia  MAY BE NOTHING TO DO WITH ISLAM .. similar to that word "Muhammad"

    but I am not satisfied with
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 03, 2019, 10:34 PM
    A Muslims who espouses heresies. By Sunni standards, yes, Shias are heretics. Whom do I consider an apostate? Abu Layth.

    Mahgraye  answers as I  am not interested in So-called Muslims
      .. Abus   and  Layths ..The Pseudo names..  You know that fellow name is  Nahiem Ajmal
    ..


    anyways  let me rephrase the question

    dear Mahgraye  Could you please  Define  Islam  ..  
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5717 - March 03, 2019, 11:28 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 03, 2019, 11:08 PM
    Haha. How did you know that he attended the conference? Any further details?


    I cannot find the one I was refering to but he will attending the one in May of this year, and they will be discussing some very interesting topics.

    https://fr.scribd.com/document/399563964/Programme-Symposion-INA-RAH-Waldthausen-05-2019
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5718 - March 04, 2019, 06:57 AM
    Inarah-symposium:

    Interesting programme indeed!

    I don't think Inarah is a monolithic group, so diverging opinions luckily are not an issue.

    Popp:

    I thought he saw the contents of the name Mohammed as shifting. From Jesus to later the prophet. On top of that he sees the Arab conquerors as simply Nestorian Christians that develop later on in something else. I think it is hard to believe there was no differentiation from the beginning seen the archeology of early mosques.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5719 - March 04, 2019, 09:51 AM
    Quote from: Marc S on March 03, 2019, 10:55 PM
    Popp uses the Darajbird coins as follows :

    - they are the proof of the eastern origins of the so-called muslims,


    Of course. Where would they come from, Mars?

    Quote
    - he also highlights the dating system ; for scholars, the Mu'awiya coin follow the Hijri calendar (and agree with the muslim narrative about the crowning of Mu'awiya) but then, for the same scholars, the Ibn Al Zubayr coin follow the Yazdgard III dating system (which help to agree with the muslim narrative dates about Ibn Al Zubayr caliphate),


    What is written on both coins? Year of what?
    Both coins come from Darajbird ?

    What scholars articles deals with this issue?


    Quote
    - for Popp, this is incoherent and the Ibn Al Zubayr coin follow the hijri calendar and therefore throw off the muslim narrative as pure fiction,


    Idem.

    Quote
    - one can agree with Popp here because why would the muslims, especially one as pious as Al Zubayr, would disregard the hijri calendar to that of a sassanid king ; scholars do not explain this ,


    Yes the only reason of the scholars is to stuck to what they think is historical, namely the muslim narrative, whereas they know its many issues (Mecca/Medina, etc).

    Quote
    - on the other hand, Popp might be wrong but then what does it say about Ibn Al Zubayr ? Was he really a muslim or was he a persian who was "mulism-ized" for the needs of the muslim narrative ?


    All the Arabs actors were integrated in the later muslim narrative as coming from Mecca/Medina/Kaba.  Nothing (archaeologic, epigraphic, scribal) from these  Arabs actors attests of this (of course...) They were integrated, to be a part of the Muhammad epic ("Companion", enemy, etc) which was thought (bona fide) to be at the origin of the conquest.
    But there are real events which lead to the war (before 630) , there is no need of Mecca/Medina/Kaba story for that, it is redundant to explain the war.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5720 - March 04, 2019, 10:26 AM
    Quote from: Marc S on March 03, 2019, 11:07 PM
    I remember Gallez desmolishing the assumption that Muhammad was a title for Jesus, which I agree (Muhammad is the Mahdi, not the Messiah).


    "Muhammad" meaning  can be sufficiently ambiguous to qualify Jesus in the Dome inscription. "Messiah" qualifier in the Quran has none meaning.


    Quote
    His other arguments are not convincing , especially when he states that his Judeo-Nazarene assumption about the origins of Islam is the proper explanations for the Arab rise.


    Christians are also called "nasara" in the East :

    There is one more piece of lexical information to consider and this time it comes from an Arabic text, composed well after the rise of Islam. In his work on the History of the Councils, the Coptic writer, Sāwīrus ibn al-Muqaffaʿ, who flourished in Egypt in the second half of the tenth century, wrote of the traditional reports available to him of the conversion of the emperor Constantine I (d. 337) to Christianity in the fourth century. Sāwīrus reports of Constantine:
    Quote
    One night as he was standing by, he saw a cross in the heavens, and angels were hovering about it. He became wary and alarmed. His attendants and companions asked him about the vision. They told him, 'These are the marvels of the cross, according to the history and present state of the people of Syria who are called naṣārāʾ. He then, intending to go out to a certain battle, made a promise to God that when he would gain the victory over his enemy, he would give thanks for it by adopting the practice of an-naṣrānīyyah and the public practice of the Christian religion (al-diyānah al-Maṣīḥiyyah)

    Griffith, 2015:
    The Qurʾān’s ‘Nazarenes’ and Other Late Antique Christians:
    Arabic-Speaking ‘Gospel People’ in Qurʾānic Perspective

    Kirdir inscription, plus Severus report above, put aside Gallez Judeo-Nazarene (and or jewish christian, etc) assumption as nasara in the Quran, and therefore destroy his main thesis and accessory the de Blois assumption in his article : "There was a community of Nazorean Christians in central Arabia, in the seventh century, unnoticed by the outside world”.
    Christians  were called also "nasara" in the East. nasara  is (logically) an Arabic transliteration of the  Syriac nasrayé.
    All is fitting good (hahaha!) Good bye Gallez and de Blois.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5721 - March 04, 2019, 11:30 AM
    Quote from: mundi on March 04, 2019, 06:57 AM

    Popp:

    I thought he saw the contents of the name Mohammed as shifting. From Jesus to later the prophet.


    He does.

    Quote
    On top of that he sees the Arab conquerors as simply Nestorian Christians that develop later on in something else. I think it is hard to believe there was no differentiation from the beginning seen the archeology of early mosques.


    I am not sure what you call archeology of early place of prayers ; are you refering to the qiblas ?


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5722 - March 04, 2019, 11:45 AM
    Quote from: Altara on March 04, 2019, 09:51 AM

    What is written on both coins? Year of what?
    Both coins come from Darajbird ?

    What scholars articles deals with this issue?
    Idem.




    You need to read Popp's article here    http://benjamin.lisan.free.fr/jardin.secret/EcritsPolitiquesetPhilosophiques/SurIslam/livres/The-Hidden-Origins-of-Islam-New-Research-into-Its-Early-History_Karl-Heinz-Ohlig_Gerd-R-Puin.pdf

    Quote
    "Muhammad" meaning  can be sufficiently ambiguous to qualify Jesus in the Dome inscription. "Messiah" qualifier in the Quran has none meaning.



    Gallez brings forth an argument that doesn't make the Muhammad = Jesus assumption seeming valid.

    His article is here http://www.lemessieetsonprophete.com/annexes/Hidden_Origins_of_Islam-EN.pdf

    However, you even had people saying that Muhammad meant the caliphs themselves in the begining (don't ask me who, I forgot).

    Quote
    In his work on the History of the Councils, the Coptic writer, Sāwīrus ibn al-Muqaffaʿ, who flourished in Egypt in the second half of the tenth century, wrote of the traditional reports available to him of the conversion of the emperor Constantine I (d. 337) to Christianity in the fourth century. Sāwīrus reports of Constantine:


    One skeptic like you could argue that your text is a tenth century translation, meaning at a time when the Quranic terms might have influenced local language even in christianized regions. I am not saying you are wrong but I would be cautious to call this a proof given the dating of the text.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5723 - March 04, 2019, 11:54 AM
    Quote
    Kirdir inscription, plus Severus report above, put aside Gallez Judeo-Nazarene (and or jewish christian, etc) assumption as nasara in the Quran, and therefore destroy his main thesis and accessory the de Blois assumption in his article.


    Read Griffith more carefully. The source he relies upon is—by his own admission—“composed well after the rise of Islam.” Why should one take the word of such a late source—composed sometime in the tenth century—for how Christians were allegedly designated in the time of Constantine I? And as Griffith writes, Sāwīrus’ intention might have been to elucidate why Christians are designated in the Qurʾān as “Nazarenes”, and that by the time Sāwīrus was writing, Christians in the Muslim world had adopted the Qurʾānic usage of the term. An interesting lexical anecdote that is worth consideration, but hardly a devastating proof.

    As to the Kirdīr inscriptions, they too, do not constitute proof of the truth of your position. The inscriptions could be interpreted otherwise, as de Blois has done. Furthermore—and this is very important—the religious landscape of the Sasanian empire in the third century makes your interpretation of the inscription improbable.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5724 - March 04, 2019, 12:47 PM
    Judeo-Nazareans:

    We might find the use of Nazareans here and there, convincing or not, but what about the very strong Jewish component (Talmud, Targum, Midrash) in the Quran? Don't we need to explain that too? And Gallez answers to that need?


    Quote
    I am not sure what you call archeology of early place of prayers ; are you refering to the qiblas ?


    I mean the early mosques and early burials that are specific to the conquerors. They dont use the existing churches, but build their own.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5725 - March 04, 2019, 12:52 PM
    Quote
    And Gallez answers to that need?


    Are you saying that he does or that he does not? His hypothesis could explain it. Robert Kerr, a follower of Gallez's theory, has attempted to explain the strong Jewish component.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5726 - March 04, 2019, 12:58 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on March 04, 2019, 11:45 AM

    You need to read Popp's article here    http://benjamin.lisan.free.fr/jardin.secret/EcritsPolitiquesetPhilosophiques/SurIslam/livres/The-Hidden-Origins-of-Islam-New-Research-into-Its-Early-History_Karl-Heinz-Ohlig_Gerd-R-Puin.pdf


    Ok, as soon I can can.

    Quote
    Gallez brings forth an argument that doesn't make the Muhammad = Jesus assumption seeming valid.
    His article is here http://www.lemessieetsonprophete.com/annexes/Hidden_Origins_of_Islam-EN.pdf

    Gallez :
    However, this should not be read, according to Luxenberg, as a proper name (Mohammed in English). Rather, it should be understood as a verbal form signifying « praised » and addressed to… Jesus. This Jesus would only be recognized to be a « prophet » and « messenger, » as the inscription indicates (see below), obviously agreeing with the Koranic text itself. However, this thesis implies the neglect of a small detail: the Koran refers to Jesus eleven times as Messiah, a title whose meaning significantly differs from the function and definition of a messenger or a prophet. Why then omit to mention it? Is it because it actually turns out to be impossible to explain such a title in the reconstructed framework of a « primitive Arabic Christianity »?


    The issue here is that Gallez read the "Messiah" word in the Quran as signifying the same thing as in Christianity a  theological "title". Where, in the Quran, is validated this meaning? Nowhere. Only Christian people say "Jesus the Messiah". Muslims are Christians then? I do not think so.  End of story. All the Gallez thesis is flawed by this (inexact) departure postulate on which he build its all thesis.
    Of course there is an explication about the use of "Messiah" about Jesus (hahaha!) but it is not the place... (hahaha!) But trust me I have one. How did I find one then?
    Putting aside the Mecca/Medina/Kaba frame as the explication of the origin of the Quran.

    Therefore yes "Muhammad" meaning  can be sufficiently ambiguous to qualify the Quranic Jesus in the Dome inscription since "Messiah" qualifier in the Quran has none meaning.

    Quote
    One skeptic like you could argue that your text is a tenth century translation, meaning at a time when the Quranic terms might have influenced local language even in christianized regions. I am not saying you are wrong but I would be cautious to call this a proof given the dating of the text.


    Of course you're perfectly right.
    But there is a point which is a important precision in the text. If this point had been absent I would not use this text as an adding (to the Kirdir inscription and the Jullien and Brelaud- Briquel Chatonnet articles about it) indication that Christians were also (meaning not only, I never said that...) called nasrayé :

    They told him, 'These are the marvels of the cross, according to the history and present state of the people of Syria who are called naṣārāʾ
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5727 - March 04, 2019, 01:02 PM
    Quote
    And Gallez answers to that need.


    The question mark was a mistake. Gallez does answer to that need. As does Sebeos.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5728 - March 04, 2019, 01:04 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 04, 2019, 11:54 AM
    Read Griffith more carefully. The source he relies upon is—by his own admission—“composed well after the rise of Islam.” Why should one take the word of such a late source—composed sometime in the tenth century—for how Christians were allegedly designated in the time of Constantine I? And as Griffith writes, Sāwīrus’ intention might have been to elucidate why Christians are designated in the Qurʾān as “Nazarenes”, and that by the time Sāwīrus was writing, Christians in the Muslim world had adopted the Qurʾānic usage of the term. An interesting lexical anecdote that is worth consideration, but hardly a devastating proof.

    As to the Kirdīr inscriptions, they too, do not constitute proof of the truth of your position. The inscriptions could be interpreted otherwise, as de Blois has done. Furthermore—and this is very important—the religious landscape of the Sasanian empire in the third century makes your interpretation of the inscription improbable.

    But there is a point which is a important precision in the text. If this point had been absent I would not use this text as an adding (to the Kirdir inscription and the Jullien and Brelaud- Briquel Chatonnet articles about it) indication that Christians were also (meaning not only, I never said that...) called nasrayé :

    They told him, 'These are the marvels of the cross, according to the history and present state of the people of Syria who are called naṣārāʾ
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5729 - March 04, 2019, 01:04 PM
    Quote
    The issue here is that Gallez read the "Messiah" word in the Quran as signifying the same thing as in Christianity a  theological "title". Where, in the Quran, is validated this meaning? Nowhere. Only Christian people say "Jesus the Messiah". Muslims are Christians then? I do not think so.  End of story.

     

    This does not make sense. Where does the Quran proclaim that Jesus was born of a virgin? Only Christians believe that Jesus was born of a virgin. This is a theological doctrine. Are Muslims Christian because they believe that Jesus was born of a virgin? Can you please explain your ideas in more detail? The meaning of Messiah in the Quran, that is.
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