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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5880 - March 09, 2019, 03:48 PM

    Review of "Scripture, Poetry and Community" by Angelika Neuwirth (2015)
    Suleyman Dost


    https://www.academia.edu/36831364/Review_of_Scripture_Poetry_and_Community_by_Angelika_Neuwirth_2015_
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5881 - March 09, 2019, 04:02 PM
    Quote from: Altara on March 09, 2019, 03:48 PM
    Review of "Scripture, Poetry and Community" by Angelika Neuwirth (2015)
    Suleyman Dost


    https://www.academia.edu/36831364/Review_of_Scripture_Poetry_and_Community_by_Angelika_Neuwirth_2015_


    That is worthy book to have..  So whom i can see in these videos that write in to this forum..??

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS4r0Lg3gT0

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xt0kapybitI

    good stuff... good stuff  ....
    I  fully agree with people . that Quran has to be a sing song book or book of dialogue...  NOT A RULE BOOK to live life   that  should satisfies Arabic and other Muslim folks  who are faithful Muslims.,  but it certainly will not satisfy . faith heads and bone brains who shout   alllllhooooooo akkkbaarrr screams..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5882 - March 09, 2019, 08:13 PM
    Todd Lawson (2013) - Review of Édouard-Marie Gallez, Le Messie et son prophète: Aux origines de l’Islam

    Available: https://bit.ly/2VOy57k
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5883 - March 09, 2019, 08:43 PM
    Thanks dear Maghraye.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5884 - March 09, 2019, 08:47 PM
    My pleasure, dear Altara. I personally enjoyed the review a lot. Surprisingly positive considering the nature of both the book and reviewer in question.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5885 - March 09, 2019, 09:01 PM
    Lawson is an excellent scholar.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5886 - March 09, 2019, 09:04 PM
    Yeah.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5887 - March 09, 2019, 11:55 PM
    Dear Altara - Can you, perhaps, explain to me in some detail how Gallez supports the existence of the sect he coined as Judeo-Nazarenes (emphasis on ‘Judeo’)? Is it primarily a result of his exegesis of the relevant Quranic verses or does his draw additional support from extra-Quranic sources as well? Here I am asking for an explanation of his methods and views and not so much why his incorrect. Thanks in advance.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5888 - March 10, 2019, 12:21 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on March 09, 2019, 02:38 PM

    that tells me either you have not read it carefully or may  be  I have not read it as I read it casually..   or I am confused as I read tons of other stuff....Should I give you page number and harry potter type content from it??[/i]


    Well you can because I am not sure what you mean by that otherwise.

    Quote
    [/u]unless you give me the year of that conquest .. I would question such assumptions  without proper dates..  was it during Muhammad Alleged Prophet of Islam time??   during his life time??   OTHERWISE   I SAY NOooooo  JEWISH FOLKS  WERE NOT INVOLVED....


    I said conquestS and I am of course referring to the events of the 620's/660's.

    Quote
    AGain dates are necessary otherwise it is a hand waving statement...You say you think "yes".. I say I think "NO..."


    You have the right to say No but read this first.

    https://www.academia.edu/3187911/Sebeos_the_Jews_and_the_Rise_of_Islam

    Quote
    when you look at it carefully lot more will look weird dear Marc ..S..


    Like what ? You always have a cryptic wording.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5889 - March 10, 2019, 12:25 AM
    Marc S- If it is not too much to ask, can you please explain the implication of Hoyland's article?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5890 - March 10, 2019, 12:26 AM
    Quote from: Altara on March 09, 2019, 02:42 PM
    The author (of the 8th c., not 640)


    Any link to a source that states this is a 8th c document for all its content ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5891 - March 10, 2019, 12:29 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 10, 2019, 12:25 AM
    Marc S- If it is not too much to ask, can you please explain the implication of Hoyland's article?


    Hoyland quotes sources that, according to him, show the involvment of Jews in the Arab armies, among other stuff in his article.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5892 - March 10, 2019, 12:31 AM
    Thanks. I took a quick look at the article (did not read it carefully). So, basically, Hoyland agrees with Crone & Cook's hypothesis of Judeo-Hagarism and so do you? Altara, on the other hand, does not think that the Jews had any involvement in the conquests, right? Is this the nature of your disagreement?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5893 - March 10, 2019, 12:56 AM
    No Hoyland doesn't really take side on this topic ; this is the conclusion of his article :"

    More research would need to be done on this and other issues touched upon in this essay before a final verdict coud be given on Sebeos' theory about the rise of Islam. The foregoing has, I hope, shown that such investigations should be fruitful and that Sebeos' account should not be dismissed as unworthy of consideration, for even if his own conclusions are suspect, the evidence from which they are derived may be of interest. The scarcity of sources for this period precludes any too profligate an approahc for its historians".

    As for me, I am not 100% in agreement with Crone/Cook because I think that the conflicting reports just hide something related to the fact the Arabs invaders, as they were not one single force, had different faiths ; it is only later that Islam came to unite them under one faith , or tried to, thus explaining all the different civil wars among Arabs in the centuries after the so-called conquests.


    Yes Altara think that I think Jews started Islam or the  conquests, which is something I don't think, and he also disagrees that there were some Arabs following some kind of Abrahamism involved in the conquests, which is an assumption that I support and also I disagree that those people had any knowledge nor had any actions driven by Quranic texts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5894 - March 10, 2019, 12:59 AM
    I see. Your assessment does not sound controversial. It does, however, remind of the Jewish/messianic nature of early Islam. Perhaps Jewish-Christian? Who knows. There is some support for the role of Jews in the Quran itself, however.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5895 - March 10, 2019, 10:16 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 09, 2019, 11:55 PM
    Dear Altara - Can you, perhaps, explain to me in some detail how Gallez supports the existence of the sect he coined as Judeo-Nazarenes (emphasis on ‘Judeo’)? Is it primarily a result of his exegesis of the relevant Quranic verses or does his draw additional support from extra-Quranic sources as well? Here I am asking for an explanation of his methods and views and not so much why his incorrect. Thanks in advance.


    He sees his sect stemming  from The War of the Sons of Light Against the Sons of Darkness (this manuscript was among the scrolls found in Qumran Cave) and about woman the  Qumran Cave book of the traps of the woman (impossible to find the English name) continuing  to the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs; the 2 Baruch (Jewish pseudepigraphical text ) ; Apocalypse of Elijah;  2 Esdras (also called 4 Esdras, Latin Esdras, or Latin Ezra) and (at last) the "Ebionite" Pseudo Clementines shahada like phrase of Peter.
    For him all of this signs this "nasara"sect which will indoctrinate the Arabs, "nasara"sect called in the Quran "nasara" but the interpolations have changed the meaning, etc.
    He read the Quran, he read the aforementioned texts, he saw convergence points. And he explained those in his book via the existence of his sect whose one sees the trace in the  aforementioned texts.
    But all of this does not reflect exactly what is at stake in his book. Lawson just make some generality, no more.
    Learn French, it worths it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5896 - March 10, 2019, 01:14 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on March 10, 2019, 12:56 AM
    No Hoyland doesn't really take side on this topic


    As he has never really take side on anything, (like this text), one cannot say that he has  followed his Phd Supervisor Crone or anyone, and even if there was a misunderstanding  about this topic, this one is not grounded. He has always been  in the Mecca/Kaba frame as attests his last book (In God's Path: The Arab Conquests ...)  except that he has understand that the locals Arabs of Palestine did take over the land (from 630) because one have one clear source giving the reason why they did this. Later, he recounts more or less the Ibn Ishaq/ Baladuri/Waqidi/Ibn Sad account.


    Quote
    As for me, I am not 100% in agreement with Crone/Cook because I think that the conflicting reports just hide something related to the fact the Arabs invaders, as they were not one single force,


    They cannot be a "single" force as Arabs are everywhere in Palestine/Syria and Iraq. Hoyland is right to point the local "revolt" of Palestine. But what has settled the "conquest" is not the local Arab in Palestine and these guys going to Syria and Mesopotamia and or Egypt. The Palestinian Arabs are nothing compared to the others.

    Quote
    had different faiths ;


    The Anastasius text  speaks of invaders, not locals. I already said why.


    Quote
    it is only later that Islam came to unite them under one faith , or tried to,

     

    Ok, I get why you say that the Quran (or Quranic text) did not exist in 637. You think it was written later.

    Quote
    thus explaining all the different civil wars among Arabs in the centuries after the so-called conquests.


    "civil wars among Arabs" has nothing to see with unite them under one faith. Muawiya wanted to convert Iraq to Islam?
    Iraq?
    Really?

    Quote
    Yes Altara think that I think Jews started Islam or the  conquests, which is something I don't think,


    One progresses... (at last!)

    Quote
    and he also disagrees that there were some Arabs following some kind of Abrahamism involved in the conquests, which is an assumption that I support


    Abrahamism which,  according to you, stem in Sozomen's attestation of 450, 200 years earlier (for Palestine, nowhere else). Between 450 and Anastasius text , there is none attestation of this Abrahamism. And it suddenly reappears from the heavens with  Anastasius? Improbable.
     It's look like the Gibson Muhammad in 450 Christianized  Petra preaching his anti Christian stuff during 20 years and nobody around was aware.
    Improbable as well.
    Quote
    and also I disagree that those people had any knowledge nor had any actions driven by Quranic texts.


    Whereas C14 Radio carbon attests of the relatively early time of costing parchment and that one knows (cf.Déroche) that these parchment were copied form older exemplar.
    Whereas the specific quranic word "muhajirun"  is used in 643 in Egypt. and by Arabs of Iraq. It seems to me improbable that this appellation was invented by a military scribe in Egypt to be taken later by Quranic scribe and put in the Quran like you say.
    Things does not happened like that in (Late) Antiquity.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5897 - March 10, 2019, 01:28 PM
    Carlos Segovia (2017) - “Friends, Enemies, or Hoped-for New Rulers? Reassessing the Early Jewish Sources Mentioning the Rise of Islam”

    Quote
    By examining several Jewish sources like the *Secrets of Rabbi Šim‘on ben Yoḥay*, the *Jewish Apocalypse on the Umayyads*, *The Story of the Ten Wise Jews*, and *Targum Pseudo-Jonathan* ad Gen 21:9-21, this paper contends that the fact that some Jews of seventh-century Syria-Palestine saw the Arabs as new rulers who would crush the Byzantine empire, bring to an end the Christian dominion of the Holy Land, and thus help to restore Israel, informs us about those Jews’ expectations – no more, no less; and that the possibility that some agreement was reached between such Jews and the Arab conquerors does not imply that Muḥammad’s original movement was Jewish oriented or that the conquerors’ polity was either pro-Jewish or Jewish based.


    https://www.academia.edu/12376505/Friends_Enemies_or_Hoped-for_New_Rulers_Reassessing_the_Early_Jewish_Sources_Mentioning_the_Rise_of_Islam_Upcoming_Book_Chapter
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5898 - March 10, 2019, 01:55 PM
    Haggai Mazuz, “Northern Arabia and its jewry in early rabbinic sources: more than meets the eye” [en línea], Antiguo Oriente: Cuadernos del Centro de Estudios de Historia del Antiguo Oriente 13 (2015), pp. 150–1:

    Quote
    Before discussing the meaning of Arabia (ערביא) in Rabbinic sources, one must address oneself to Roman Arabia, since it is likely that the Jews under Roman rule in the Land of Israel in Talmudic times were familiar with that term and, more or less, with the borders of the area that it denoted. The term “Arabia” was originally used by Greek and Roman geographers; thus, it was probably borrowed by Jews, given that the Bible calls the land of the Arabs ʿArav (e.g., Is. 21:13; Jer. 25:23–24). The Biblical references to Arabia plainly refer to northern Arabia because they mention Dedan and Teima.

    In the early twentieth century, after Jaussen and Savignac’s Mission archéologique en Arabie, scholars assumed that the Ḥijāz was not part of Roman Arabia. Three decades later, this premise was challenged by Seyrig on the basis of his discoveries of Roman outposts on the road to Medina. Consequently, scholars almost completely abandoned Jaussen and Savignac’s view—with one exception—and research after Seyrig reinforced his stance.

    In view of this broad consensus, it would not be unreasonable to claim that Arabia in Rabbinic sources refers, inter alia, to the Ḥijāz as well. The consensus regarding the territory of Roman Arabia is crucial to the discussion about the information on the Jews of northern Arabia, mainly regarding those in Ḥegger/Ḥagrā, that emerges several times from Rabbinic sources. Now that this matter has been clarified among scholars, the Rabbinic literature can teach us more about the Jews of northern Arabia than is known today.


    Available: http://bibliotecadigital.uca.edu.ar/repositorio/revistas/northern-arabia-jewry-rabbinic-sources.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5899 - March 10, 2019, 01:59 PM
    Haggai Mazus (2014) - The Religious and Spiritual Life of the Jews of Medina

    Quote
    In The Religious and Spiritual Life of the Jews of Medinq Haggai Mazuz offers an account of the halakhic character of the Jewish community of Medina in the seventh century CE. Making use of a unique methodology of comparison between Islamic and Jewish sources, Mazuz convincingly argues that the Jews of Medina were Talmudic-Rabbinic Jews in almost every respect. Their sages believed in using homiletic interpretation of the Scriptures, as did the sages of the Talmud. On many halakhic issues, their observations were identical to those of the Talmudic sages. In addition, they held Rabbinic beliefs, sayings and motifs derived from the Midrashic literature.


    Available: https://bit.ly/2NSut1w
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5900 - March 10, 2019, 02:46 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 10, 2019, 01:28 PM
    Carlos Segovia (2017) - “Friends, Enemies, or Hoped-for New Rulers? Reassessing the Early Jewish Sources Mentioning the Rise of Islam”

    https://www.academia.edu/12376505/Friends_Enemies_or_Hoped-for_New_Rulers_Reassessing_the_Early_Jewish_Sources_Mentioning_the_Rise_of_Islam_Upcoming_Book_Chapter


    Yes this attests of what I already said in the discussion with Marc.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5901 - March 10, 2019, 02:51 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 10, 2019, 01:59 PM
    Haggai Mazus (2014) - The Religious and Spiritual Life of the Jews of Medina

    Available: https://bit.ly/2NSut1w

    Thanks.
    As the frame Mecca/Kaba is fiction before Islam Jews in Medina are as well.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5902 - March 10, 2019, 02:52 PM
    Quote from: Altara on March 10, 2019, 10:16 AM
    He sees his sect stemming  from The War of the Sons of Light Against the Sons of Darkness (this manuscript was among the scrolls found in Qumran Cave) and about woman the  Qumran Cave book of the traps of the woman (impossible to find the English name) continuing  to the Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs; the 2 Baruch (Jewish pseudepigraphical text ) ; Apocalypse of Elijah;  2 Esdras (also called 4 Esdras, Latin Esdras, or Latin Ezra) and (at last) the "Ebionite" Pseudo Clementines shahada like phrase of Peter.
    For him all of this signs this "nasara"sect which will indoctrinate the Arabs, "nasara"sect called in the Quran "nasara" but the interpolations have changed the meaning, etc.
    He read the Quran, he read the aforementioned texts, he saw convergence points. And he explained those in his book via the existence of his sect whose one sees the trace in the aforementioned texts.
    But all of this does not reflect exactly what is at stake in his book. Lawson just makes some generality, no more.
    Learn French, it worths it.


    Thanks, dear Altara. Much appreciated. It seems that Gallez's case is much more complicated and nuanced than meets the eye. By "all of this does not reflect exactly what is at stake in his book", do you mean that his case is more complicated and detailed in his book? As to learning French, I truly want to learn. Do you have a good book one could study at home or should I just take some courses at University?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5903 - March 10, 2019, 03:00 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 10, 2019, 01:59 PM
    Haggai Mazus (2014) - The Religious and Spiritual Life of the Jews of Medina

    Available: https://bit.ly/2NSut1w

    the so-called history  written in THE FIRST  REFERENCE of that review itself is questionable .... It is all  Ibn Ishaq  "Sirat RasuAllah" + more imaginative  stories...

    As early stories of Prophet of Islam come from authors who must be proficient in Farsi  language,,   Some times i wonder why these guys did not write  that story of Prophet of Islam in that old farsi language...  

    THE LIFE OF  MUHAMMAD  "  A TRANSLATION OF ISHAQ'S   SIRAT RASOL ALLAH  WITH INTRODUCTION AND NOTES BY  A. GUILLAUME
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5904 - March 10, 2019, 03:31 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 10, 2019, 02:52 PM
    Thanks, dear Altara. Much appreciated. It seems that Gallez's case is much more complicated and nuanced than meets the eye. By "all of this does not reflect exactly what is at stake in his book", do you mean that his case is more complicated and detailed in his book? As to learning French, I truly want to learn. Do you have a good book one could study at home or should I just take some courses at University?

    1/ Yes: more complicated and detailed "Gallez's case is much more complicated and nuanced than meets the eye." But he's lead by his ideology. Which lead him to engage Islam by only one prism : the jihad one. Considering that it is the main original new stuff by which, one should enter and which is the key to understand the Quran emergence an the Quranic text. I'm not agree with that (whereas it seemed to me  more or less obvious before especially reading de Prémare). De Prémare (in another way) it is the same. Common points : they are Christians.
    2/Use both the internet and University. Unfortunately I have not clues where in the internet you can find something cool. For something efficient you will have to pay, but one never knows. One time find, you must follow what I say now. 2hrs a day of work, it is a minimum. All the days. Listening only French TV Arte is the best for the French used (for the rest you have the internet) French films on Amazon prime (cheap I do not have it but I know they have some) with subs or not. Learning by heart the verbs, the grammar rules. 1 month of holidays. And come back. In five years of this very programme, you will read not only Gallez, but Dye, de Prémare, and the Quran in French etc. And you will see that English is a kind of French for children very, very, very bad pronounced. 5 years of hard working but of invaluable joy (joie, the real french word very, very, very bad pronounced hahaha!)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5905 - March 10, 2019, 03:54 PM
    Quote
    1/ Yes: more complicated and detailed "Gallez's case is much more complicated and nuanced than meets the eye." But he's lead by his ideology. Which lead him to engage Islam by only one prism : the jihad one. Considering that it is the main original new stuff by which, one should enter and which is the key to understand the Quran emergence an the Quranic text. I'm not agree with that (whereas it seemed to me more or less obvious before especially reading de Prémare). De Prémare (in another way) it is the same. Common points: they are Christians.


    I see. I always find it interesting when Christians are very critical in their study of Islam. I wonder if they accept the results of Old and New Testament research as well. For instance, to quote Thomas Römer (in French, haha), to make it clear: "D'un point de vue « scientifique », nul universitaire ne soutient plus l'historicité d'Abraham, et celle de Moïse".

    I also wonder how religious both were, de Premare and Gallez, that is, and did the former accept the latter hypothesis?

    Quote
    2/Use both the internet and University. Unfortunately I have not clues where in the internet you can find something cool. For something efficient you will have to pay, but one never knows. One time find, you must follow what I say now. 2hrs a day of work, it is a minimum. All the days. Listening only French TV (for the rest you have the internet) French films on Amazon prime (cheap I do have it but I know they have some) with subs or not. Learning by heart the verbs, the grammar rules. 1 month of holidays. And come back. In five years of this very programme, you will read not only Gallez, but Dye, de Prémare, and the Quran in French etc.


    Thanks. Will take courses and device a plan at home to at least be able to read.

    Quote
    And you will see that English is a kind of French for children very, very, very bad pronounced. 5 years of hard working but of invaluable joy (joie, the real french word very, very, very bad pronounced hahaha!)


    Here we see that even Altara is driven by his ideology, haha. Every chance he gets he attack English, haha. Just kidding.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5906 - March 10, 2019, 04:01 PM
    Quote from: Altara on March 10, 2019, 01:14 PM
    The Anastasius text  speaks of invaders, not locals. I already said why.


    I have not mentionned Anastasius here.  

    Quote
    Ok, I get why you say that the Quran (or Quranic text) did not exist in 637. You think it was written later.


    Nope. My assumption is very different.

    Quote
    "civil wars among Arabs" has nothing to see with unite them under one faith. Muawiya wanted to convert Iraq to Islam?
    Iraq?
    Really?


    Unfortunately, you didn't read what I wrote.

    Quote
    thus explaining all the different civil wars among Arabs in the centuries after the so-called conquests.


    Quote
    One progresses... (at last!)


    Nope, I had always said so but you didn't read me.

    Quote
    Abrahamism which,  according to you, stem in Sozomen's attestation of 450, 200 years earlier (for Palestine, nowhere else). Between 450 and Anastasius text , there is none attestation of this Abrahamism. And it suddenly reappears from the heavens with  Anastasius? Improbable.


    Koren/Nevo disapprove your conjecture, as well as the dialog between John and the Amir, :

    "Textual evidence that such a creed exist has been given above. There is also a body of epigraphical evidence from the Negue, in the form of a highly unusual frequency occurrence of the name Abraham (Abraamos, Abraamios,etc,etc...)in the 6th century Negev Greek texts, both inscriptions and papyri.......The adherents to the religion of Abraham, it seems, showed ap reference for living in the region to which Hagar fled and where Ismael dwelt - traditionnally considered to be the west-southwest corner of the northern Negev, the Gaza-Elusa-Nessana area"   Crossroads to Islam

    By the way the Chronicle of Khuzistan, mentionning the Dome of Abraham, and Anastasius, mentionning the sacred place of the Arabs though in that case of Anastasius it might have been a pagan center, do tie up with this Abrahamism.

    Quote
    Whereas C14 Radio carbon attests of the relatively early time of costing parchment and that one knows (cf.Déroche) that these parchment were copied form older exemplar.


    Could you do us a favor and specifically tell us :

    - what are those exact C14 results you refer to so namely manuscripts and dating ?

    - a link to the exact quotation from Deroche

    Quote
    It seems to me improbable that this appellation was invented by a military scribe in Egypt to be taken later by Quranic scribe and put in the Quran like you say.


    I don't have any opinion on this topic but, like I told you, any skeptic could well raise that assumption and then it is a matter of opinion rather than facts.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5907 - March 10, 2019, 04:02 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on March 10, 2019, 12:21 AM
    ...................................
    You have the right to say No but read this first.

    https://www.academia.edu/3187911/Sebeos_the_Jews_and_the_Rise_of_Islam
    ..............


    what is there to read  .?    dear Marc. that is the oldest paper of  Robert Hoyland.,    you are getting that from that 1995 book of Ronald Nettler


    we must realize here ., Early Islamic history investigators specially from US of A & Englnd  that wrote between 1980  to  year 2005  are obsolete


    anyways let me add this link first   http://nyu.academia.edu/RobertHoyland  so people can read all of Bob Hoyland's publications including that big book    Seeing Islam As Others Saw It: A Survey and Evaluation of Christian, Jewish and Zoroastrian Writings on Early Islam (STUDIES IN LATE ANTIQUITY AND EARLY ISLAM) Hardcover – 1 Jan 1998  by Robert G. Hoyland

    please read that book and other publications of Robert  . Hoyland  in the Link above..


    with best
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5908 - March 10, 2019, 04:10 PM
    Quote from: Altara on March 10, 2019, 02:51 PM
    Thanks.
    As the frame Mecca/Kaba is fiction before Islam Jews in Medina are as well.


    Do you claim that there were no Jews in the Ḥijāz? Are there no sources documenting their presence? What about Medina?

    Haggai Mazuz wrote (The Religious and Spiritual Life of Jews in Medina, 1):

    Quote
    There are no—and perhaps never were any—Jews or Christian sources documenting the history of the Ḥijāzī Jews. The Mishna along with the Babylonian and Jerusalem Talmuds lack any detailed information on the lives of Arabian Jews, and provide little assistance in building a comprehensive profile of these communities. As a result, we are forced to rely exclusively on Islamic sources.

     

    And what about the this statement, also from Mazuz:

    Quote
    Before discussing the meaning of Arabia (ערביא) in Rabbinic sources, one must address oneself to Roman Arabia, since it is likely that the Jews under Roman rule in the Land of Israel in Talmudic times were familiar with that term and, more or less, with the borders of the area that it denoted. The term “Arabia” was originally used by Greek and Roman geographers; thus, it was probably borrowed by Jews, given that the Bible calls the land of the Arabs ʿArav (e.g., Is. 21:13; Jer. 25:23–24). The Biblical references to Arabia plainly refer to northern Arabia because they mention Dedan and Teima.

    In the early twentieth century, after Jaussen and Savignac’s Mission archéologique en Arabie, scholars assumed that the Ḥijāz was not part of Roman Arabia. Three decades later, this premise was challenged by Seyrig on the basis of his discoveries of Roman outposts on the road to Medina. Consequently, scholars almost completely abandoned Jaussen and Savignac’s view—with one exception—and research after Seyrig reinforced his stance.

    In view of this broad consensus, it would not be unreasonable to claim that Arabia in Rabbinic sources refers, inter alia, to the Ḥijāz as well. The consensus regarding the territory of Roman Arabia is crucial to the discussion about the information on the Jews of northern Arabia, mainly regarding those in Ḥegger/Ḥagrā, that emerges several times from Rabbinic sources. Now that this matter has been clarified among scholars, the Rabbinic literature can teach us more about the Jews of northern Arabia than is known today.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #5909 - March 10, 2019, 04:36 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 10, 2019, 03:54 PM
    I see. I always find it interesting when Christians are very critical in their study of Islam. I wonder if they accept the results of Old and New Testament research as well. For instance, to quote Thomas Römer (in French, haha), to make it clear: "D'un point de vue « scientifique », nul universitaire ne soutient plus l'historicité d'Abraham, et celle de Moïse".


    And the Jews? Hahaha! I do not know...

    Quote
    I also wonder how religious both were, de Premare and Gallez, that is, and did the former accept the latter hypothesis?


    Gallez is more conservative that de Prémare was.
    Quote
    Thanks. Will take courses and device a plan at home to at least be able to read.


    It will be hard. 5 years of regular working.
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    Here we see that even Altara is driven by his ideology, haha. Every chance he gets he attack English, haha. Just kidding.


    60% of English vocabulary is French. You will see it in 5 years. Wink
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