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Theme Changer

 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6240 - March 20, 2019, 11:05 AM
    Quote from: mundi on March 20, 2019, 07:06 AM
    Qiblas:

    There is indeed Petra for a whole lot, but for some, that direction corresponds with "south". Although usually these Qiblas are not pointing directly south which is easy enough to do if South was intended.  


    General South was intended. These Arabs are not the sailors of Gibson

    Quote
    But other early mosques (eg in Negev) point to South-East but not enough for Mecca to ahve been intended.

     
    General South was intended, like the Temple. There was no Mecca.

    Quote
    And then of course the Aila early mosque pointing to Mount Sinai. Mecca cannot have been intended since visually the builders could see from Aila that Mecca was the other direction. No complicated calculations needed, just their own eyes.


    General South was intended, like the Temple. There was no Mecca. Mount Sinai was maybe the direction intended for the Temple. I said MAYBE.
    Quote
    So my problem here in connection with 2:127 and the ideological building on the Temple Mount is that there seems to be an ideological direction for the Qibla.

     

    Copying the Temple one, nothing else.
    Quote
    We have no evidence of this proto-Islam being propagated into the masses,


    Yes.
    Quote
    no evidence of Quranic verses being wide spread


    Yes.
    Quote
    , no evidence of public recitations trying to convert people


    Yes.
    Quote
    But yet, the conquerors leave archaeological traces that they were directed by a well defined ideology.


    Yes the Quranic texts the LEADERS owns.

    Quote
    An ideology that even prevented them to merge with the upper class with which they collaborated intensely to rule the lands.


    It was not the "ideology" which " even prevented them to merge with the upper class with which they collaborated intensely to rule the lands". What then? Check history. (yawn...)

    Quote
    From there my suggestion of a secret society (or illuminati, is that what you mean by them Altara?)


    You have to ground your suggestion with (grounded) sources or a reasoning based on them.

    Quote
    We know that societies like that were quite popular in Judaism. We still have today Alawites and Druze that have their origins in such societies. Could explain a lot.


    You have to ground your suggestion with (grounded)  before Islam sources or a reasoning based on them.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6241 - March 20, 2019, 11:10 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on March 20, 2019, 07:11 AM

    you mean to  say,    John of Damascus  said/wrote   that " in the year 730 Muhammad is said receiving his "revelations" in his sleep. "

    did i get that right??


    Yes. 710/20/30 the details of the Muhammad story was not still well constructed.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6242 - March 20, 2019, 11:48 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on March 20, 2019, 07:14 AM
    may be they were NOT mosques  to start with but became mosques  at a  much  later times....


    -Islam not existing at the time, they were not mosks.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6243 - March 20, 2019, 11:50 AM
    Altara,

    From the top of my head there is Kathisma just south of Jerusalem, pointing Southish, not North to Jerusalem.

    South is VERY easy. So eg to direct the Jerash mosque SW exactly to Petra, this by changing the alignment of the mosque relative to  the existing roman streetplan...it can't be "by accident".

    The Spanish/ North African early mosques all go for 156... (no  focus point).

    So there is NO Jerusalem what concerns the Qibla.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6244 - March 20, 2019, 11:51 AM
    Quote from: mundi on March 20, 2019, 07:29 AM
    These mosques have the Qibla as a feature to recognise them.

    We also see burials  (none facing Mecca, but on right side, facing same direction as "mosques") that were done in a different way than what was done before for centuries.


    Do you have a link that gives more details about what you are talking about, like mosks or burial/places where they are/directions they are facing/date ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6245 - March 20, 2019, 11:54 AM
    [
    Quote
    Islam not existing at the time, they were not mosks


    Ok, Marc, but they were something specific to the conquerors. We can call them differently, but the issues raised remain the same.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6246 - March 20, 2019, 11:56 AM
    Marc,

    Here is the Tauste graveyard: http://thesacredcity.ca/tauste.html

    You can also check other Spanish mosques (like Cordoba). Always the same angle.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6247 - March 20, 2019, 12:04 PM
    Quote from: mundi on March 20, 2019, 07:29 AM
    We also see burials  (none facing Mecca, but on right side, facing same direction as "mosques") that were done in a different way than what was done before for centuries.

    That's why I conclude that a distinctive religious ideology seems to have directed their actions from the beginning. But probably the ones that knew about the details were few (secret society?)


    From Jacob of Edessa, we understand that they were praying towards the Ka'aba the patriarchal place of their race. That Ka'aba seemed to have been different from Jerusalem.

    So the question is what is the patriarchal place of the Arabs in the late 7th/early 8th century ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6248 - March 20, 2019, 12:07 PM
    Quote
    So the question is what is the patriarchal place of the Arabs in the late 7th/early 8th century ?


    Not Jerusalem in any case. What does bible say? I think it is ambiguous no?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6249 - March 20, 2019, 12:23 PM
    You all seem to think it is mentionned in 2:127  Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6250 - March 20, 2019, 12:41 PM
    Altara,

    Quote
    General South was intended, like the Temple


    Why? Christian churches were directed East (second coming of Christ). Jews prayed towards Jerusalem. What is according to you reason for South direction of proto-Islam?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6251 - March 20, 2019, 01:39 PM
    Quote from: mundi on March 20, 2019, 11:50 AM
    Altara,


    Yes.

    Quote
    So there is NO Jerusalem what concerns the Qibla.


    I do not say that. Reread me.


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6252 - March 20, 2019, 01:40 PM
    Quote from: mundi on March 20, 2019, 12:41 PM
    Altara,

    Why? Christian churches were directed East (second coming of Christ). Jews prayed towards Jerusalem. What is according to you reason for South direction of proto-Islam?


    The Temple. Where the Temple of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was pointing? Mars?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6253 - March 20, 2019, 02:02 PM
    Jerash mosque pointing to?


    I mentioned the Jerash mosque pointing S-W almost exactly to Petra. I just came across this article about Mount Nebo, the place where Moses got to and could see but not enter the promised land. https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/monastic-mosaic-at-mount-nebo-jordan-biogeochemical-and-epigraphical-evidence-for-diverse-origins/BDBDA76294E5D7E2A20DC8F0DCA77AAE/share/5affc3addf359e3fc091de6916c09e95e88b9d53

    Guess what, Mount Nebo is in same direction as Petra. Did the Jerash mosque point to Mount Nebo?

    If directed by these illuminati, Moses for sure hs a prominent enough place in the Quran to have  a mosque in its direction...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6254 - March 20, 2019, 02:05 PM
    Altara,

    I say there is NO Jerusalem in qibla directions. Havent found one yet....

    Quote
    Where the Temple of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was pointing


    Why would that be a specific direction? Source?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6255 - March 20, 2019, 03:51 PM
    The  (second) Temple of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was pointing to what cardinal point?

    I do not know!
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6256 - March 20, 2019, 06:39 PM
    Altara,

    Al Aqsa and dome of the Chain both point to Petra (+/- 170 dg).  http://thesacredcity.ca/data/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6257 - March 20, 2019, 06:43 PM
    South-East then. The main entry into the Dome is what?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6258 - March 20, 2019, 07:33 PM
    Altara,

    The south entrance of the Rock is also at 170. Is that the main entrance?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6259 - March 20, 2019, 08:30 PM
    As Crone was the first (or one of the first) scholar to draw our attention to the problem of prayer direction, it is best to quote her:

    Quote
    At the same time, literary and archaeological sources seem to indicate that from the time of ʿUmar to ʿAbd al-Malik the Muslims prayed in the direction of a central sanctuary in northern Arabia, or to Jerusalem, or to a plurality of sanctuaries, suggesting that the classical status of Mecca may be the outsome of an evolution stretching beyond Muhammad’s lifetime.


    It seems that Altara’s position is not unprecedented or not in line with the evidence, that prayer of direction was. perhaps, directed towards Jerusalem, assuming I understood him correctly. Though there being a sanctuary somewhere in northern Arabia is a possibility, too.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6260 - March 20, 2019, 08:44 PM
    Crone and Jerusalem:

    I guess she wrote that before Google Earth was easily accessible to every amateur like me. It's not bc Crone says prayer directions point to Jerusalem that they do. They clearly don't.

    Dan gibson hasn't found any that point to Jerusalem and I haven't either.  This position is easily  refuted by a counter example. But all the academic scholars haven't provided one yet.... I'm waiting.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6261 - March 20, 2019, 08:52 PM
    Quote from: mundi on March 20, 2019, 07:33 PM
    Altara,

    The south entrance of the Rock is also at 170. Is that the main entrance?


    There's four entrance; what is the main one?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6262 - March 20, 2019, 08:57 PM
    Dome of Rock:

    I think the Southern one is the main entrance: at 170 dg.
    Builders must have been able to measure south correctly. That is not hard.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6263 - March 20, 2019, 09:01 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on March 20, 2019, 08:30 PM
    As Crone was the first (or one of the first) scholar to draw our attention to the problem of prayer direction, it is best to quote her:

    It seems that Altara’s position is not unprecedented or not in line with the evidence, that prayer of direction was. perhaps, directed towards Jerusalem, assuming I understood him correctly. Though there being a sanctuary somewhere in northern Arabia is a possibility, too.


    South like the Temple (if the (2nd) Temple was pointing south, I do not know...) or direction Jerusalem, which is the same (the Temple)...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6264 - March 20, 2019, 09:06 PM
    Quote from: mundi on March 20, 2019, 08:57 PM
    Dome of Rock:

    I think the Southern one is the main entrance: at 170 dg.
    Builders must have been able to measure south correctly. That is not hard.


    Think or sure?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6265 - March 20, 2019, 09:09 PM
    Entrance:

    Think. It seems to have the biggest portal.

    We can use this Iarah doc for further discussions on the positions: http://inarah.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Felsendom-08.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6266 - March 20, 2019, 10:05 PM
     the via dolorosa is in the north of the Dome; via this map it seems that one enters in it via the north entrance then it would mean that the Dome is pointing to the south same as the 2nd Temple it seems.
    https://www.itraveljerusalem.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/jerusalem-map.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6267 - March 21, 2019, 06:49 AM
    2nd temple:

    I don't know how accurate the info about the 2nd temple is. I doubt there is enough evidence to precisely determine its "direction".

    Comparing with the Kathisma church that has the same ground plan, we see that the Southern flank is about 180 degrees, permitting the abcis of the church that it was to point directly East. The 170 dg of the dome of the rock seems to be deliberate since also the Al Aqsa and the dome of the chain exhibit this direction.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6268 - March 21, 2019, 09:18 AM
    Interesting.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6269 - March 21, 2019, 01:05 PM
    mundi excites readers  just throwing few words into his posts
    Quote from: mundi on March 20, 2019, 08:57 PM
    ........Dome of Rock......Dome of Rock:

    I think the Southern one is the main entrance: at 170 dg.
    Builders must have been able to measure south correctly. That is not hard.

     



    .."Dome of Rock "....."Qubbat al-Sakhrah"... ...."Kippat ha-Sela".


    dear  mundi. .."Dome of Rock "....."Qubbat al-Sakhrah"... ...."Kippat ha-Sela". ....was an important game changer in  early Islam.

    So please print me some links of PEER REVIEWED PUBLICATIONS FROM ACADEMICS on that .. let me start with this.. I LIKE MS & Ph.D.  thesis from young students so let me start with this

    THE DOME OF THE ROCK:A RICH HISTORIC AND ARTISTIC ACCOUNT  Feda W. Suleiman  thesis...May, 2016

    with best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
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