Qur'anic studies today

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Reply #6450 - April 12, 2019, 09:11 PM

Altara,

We can say it's about probability. Indeed, there is a very small chance that it is pure coincidence that eg no Arabic script was found in the Petra Papyri or the pre-islamic Nessuna ones. Hardly any arabic was found in pre-islamic inscriptions.

If it was widespread in Iraq, it would have been found without searching too much.

The indication is there that pre-conquest, this script was not very popular. So much that for quite some time it was thought that the Quran was the very first work in Arabic script and the script was invented to write the Quran.

Thought exercise:

Starting from the evidence of scarcity of pre-conquest Arabic and explosion of it post-conquest, what could be an explanation?
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Reply #6451 - April 13, 2019, 09:38 AM

Quote
If it was widespread in Iraq, it would have been found without searching too much.

Not necessarily as pre Islamic inscription are Christians. They've been erased as they bear crosses. Crosses mean idolatry. What one found is what had escaped.

Quote
this script was not very popular

Possibly.
If it was crafted in monasteries, it was used more or less for religious purposes which slowly disseminated: 512/568 inscriptions, Negev inscriptions.He only imposed himself as a secular script from the Quranic texts which was written with it. Meaning that Quranic texts was written before 640 (PERF 558).

Quote
So much that for quite some time it was thought that the Quran was the very first work in Arabic script and the script was invented to write the Quran.

As it was crafted in monasteries that does not surprise me. One always found it before Islam with religious purposes; 512/568

Quote
Starting from the evidence of scarcity of pre-conquest Arabic and explosion of it post-conquest, what could be an explanation?

See above
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Reply #6452 - April 13, 2019, 12:06 PM

Altara,

The Greek and Syriac with crosses was not removed but the Arabic was? Far fetched.

Point here is also that you need special structures to keep a low intensity script going. Parents will not spontaneously teach their children, or children will not pick it up bc seeing it everywhere.

It is almost as if a secret society kept the script alive (after a first experiment to popularise it failed?), and with the push of the conquest, this script was promoted to reinforce the new power structures.

Plausible theory?
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Reply #6453 - April 13, 2019, 02:21 PM

Quote
The Greek and Syriac with crosses was not removed but the Arabic was? Far fetched.

Reflect.

Quote
Point here is also that you need special structures to keep a low intensity script going.

Monasteries.

Quote
It is almost as if ~~a secret society~~Monasteries kept the script alive (after a first experiment to popularise it failed?), and with the push of the conquest, this script was promoted to reinforce the new power structures.

Promoted it as it was already a religious one (512/568)
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Reply #6454 - April 13, 2019, 02:27 PM

Monasteries:

I see the logic in it, from the Quranic text it seems the most logical explanation. But from the archeology of Negev, the papyri of Nessana/Petra, nothing shows any signs of Arabic pre-Islam in these monasteries.

Do you have any reason to point to Iraq? I mean something concrete, not a string of assumptions.

Why do you keep mentioning these dates: 512/568?

Monasteries/secret society: one doesn't exclude the other. Histroy shows that monasteries often were breeding grounds of new ideas.
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Reply #6455 - April 13, 2019, 03:07 PM

Quote from: Altara on April 13, 2019, 02:21 PM
Reflect.
...........................

Hello Altara ., What is your opinion on these Caliphs of Early Islam...??

Quote
The Rashidun Caliphate. ...

Abu Bakr.: Born in the year 573., Was a Caliph and in Power from 8 June 632 to 22 August 634.,      [ Father of Aisha, and Father in-law of Prophet of Islam ~~"Muhammad"~~ who allegedly married 9/13 year old Aisha

Umar ibn al-Khattab: Born in the year 584., Was a Caliph and in Power from 23 August 634   to 3 November 644 and was Assassinated by a Persian, He was Father in-law of Prophet of Islam and Father of Hafsa bint Umar,

Uthman ibn Affan: Born in the year 579., Was a Caliph and in Power from    11 November 644    to 20 June 656 and Assassinated at the end of a siege upon his house) . He was Son in-law of Prophet of Islam and Husband of Muhammad's daughters, Ruqayya and later Umm Kulthum

Ali ibn Abi Talib Born on 15 September 601., Was a Caliph and in Power from    20 June 656    to 29 January 661 and Assassinated during Fajr prayer in Kufa. He was Muhammad's first cousin., And was Husband of Prophet of Islam's daughter Fatimah Also was Husband of Umamah bint Zainab, Prophet of Islam's granddaughter All modern descendants of Muhammad are supposed to have Prophet of Islam genealogy through through Ali & Fatima

SO QUESTIONS TO YOU DEAR Altara.,

1). Do you believe in that above narration of early Islamic Power houses??

2). And DO YO HAVE ANY LINKS OF PEER REVIEWED PUBLISHED PAPERS FROM WESTERN ACADEMICS WHO WERE/ARE FACULTY MEMBERS IN UNIVERSITIES ON THOSE CALIPHS

Well let me list other guys also here .. so I can ask fuhrer questions ... please see this list below which overlaps to the names above

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #6456 - April 13, 2019, 05:59 PM

Quote from: mundi on April 13, 2019, 02:27 PM
Monasteries:

But from the archaeology of Negev, the papyri of Nessana/Petra, nothing shows any signs of Arabic pre-Islam in these monasteries.

Because they does not need it. As they have Greek (yawn...)

Quote
Do you have any reason to point to Iraq? I mean something concrete, not a string of assumptions.

Greek was in the west.

Quote
Why do you keep mentioning these dates: 512/568?

Get to islamic awareness.

Quote
Monasteries/secret society: one doesn't exclude the other. History shows that monasteries often were breeding grounds of new ideas.

Yes, but secret society is an anachronism.
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Reply #6457 - April 13, 2019, 06:06 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on April 13, 2019, 03:07 PM
Hello Altara ., What is your opinion on these Caliphs of Early Islam...??

Warlords dressed as "Companions of the Prophet" 2 c. later.

Quote
SO QUESTIONS TO YOU DEAR Altara., 1). Do you believe in that above narration of early Islamic Power houses??

See above.

Quote
2). And DO YO HAVE ANY LINKS OF PEER REVIEWED PUBLISHED PAPERS FROM WESTERN ACADEMICS WHO WERE/ARE FACULTY MEMBERS IN UNIVERSITIES ON THOSE CALIPHS

Nope as they repeat 9th c. narratives.
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Reply #6458 - April 13, 2019, 06:10 PM

Quote
secret society is an anachronism

I got this idea from the article about secret Jewish Societies related to the Dead Sea scroll. Why anachronism?

Zebed and Harrran inscription are multilingual. So having Greek didnt stop them having Arabic.
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Reply #6459 - April 13, 2019, 06:24 PM

Quote
the article about secret Jewish Societies

?

Quote
Zebed and Harrran inscription are multilingual. So having Greek didnt stop them having Arabic.

I never said that.
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Reply #6460 - April 13, 2019, 06:30 PM

Quote from: Altara on April 13, 2019, 05:59 PM

Get to islamic awareness.

i was worried that you are going to say that to me but your answer
Quote from: Altara on April 13, 2019, 06:06 PM
Warlords dressed as "Companions of the Prophet" 2 c. later.

I fully agree with you on those warlords and their story tellers in the name of Porphet of Islam "Muhammad" but is it not time for academics to inquire and clear these warlords and their real stories.? I mean why?? even many of those who question Existence of Muhammad would not even touch the subject of early warlords in Islam ..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #6461 - April 13, 2019, 07:27 PM

Quote
but is it not time for academics to inquire and clear these warlords and their real stories.? I mean why?? even many of those who question Existence of Muhammad would not even touch the subject of early warlords in Islam ..

Because they are constitutive of the narrative. As such, none scholar investigate anything. They believe it. They are great believers. As such they do not question none of these attested "Companion of the Prophet" Ali or Muawiya who do not left any trace of their supposed life with the Prophet and their great life in Mecca/Medina/Kaba.
Simply because all of this is fiction. That is the logical response.
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Reply #6462 - April 13, 2019, 07:29 PM

First Caliphs:

I agree it is fiction. But maybe some names are correct? Someone must have led the conquerors?
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Reply #6463 - April 13, 2019, 08:12 PM

Quote
But maybe some names are correct? Someone must have led the conquerors?

The names (correct or not) were dressed as "Companions of the Prophet". From the sources one knows at least that Muawiya and Ali are corrects names.
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Reply #6464 - April 14, 2019, 07:36 AM

Zebed and Harran inscription:

Both are connected to martyria, Is more known about what exactly was going on in these martyria? Did certain texts come out of there, were certain activities developed there?
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Reply #6465 - April 14, 2019, 11:53 PM

I don't know.
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Reply #6466 - April 15, 2019, 09:10 PM

Quote from: mundi on April 14, 2019, 07:36 AM
Zebed and Harran inscription:

Both are connected to martyria, Is more known about what exactly was going on in these martyria? Did certain texts come out of there, were certain activities developed there?

Hi mundi .. where did/do you read about those inscriptions? do you have any link on them apart from islamic awareness.org??

http://www.scholarofthehouse.org/onrebi.html

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #6467 - April 15, 2019, 09:16 PM

Quote from: Altara on April 13, 2019, 07:27 PM
Because they are constitutive of the narrative. As such, none scholar investigate anything. They believe it. They are great believers. As such they do not question none of these attested "Companion of the Prophet" Ali or Muawiya who do not left any trace of their supposed life with the Prophet and their great life in Mecca/Medina/Kaba.
Simply because all of this is fiction. That is the logical response.

let me recap that

"None of the scholars investigate anything. They believe in narratives.
They are great believers."
.... Altara......

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #6468 - April 15, 2019, 09:20 PM

Yeez,

Harran and Zebed inscriptions: they are mentioned in all articles about arabic epigraphy. Islamic awareness gives a handy overview. Why do you want more info? What is your idea around these inscriptions?
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Reply #6469 - April 15, 2019, 09:26 PM

Quote from: mundi on April 15, 2019, 09:20 PM
Yeez,

...............Why do you want more info?... What is your idea around these inscriptions?

well it is good to know what they published w.r.t inscriptions and how "SCHOLARS" interpret them.. but more important is your 2nd question which covertly or overtly comes in to the field of "Science of dating objects" from ancient times.. and that is my interest ..

with best
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #6470 - April 15, 2019, 10:04 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on April 15, 2019, 09:16 PM
let me recap that

"None of the scholars investigate anything. They believe in narratives.
They are great believers."
.... Altara......

Issue is sources are scarce and not so crystal clear so it is easier to cling to the muslim narrative.
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Reply #6471 - April 16, 2019, 12:19 AM

Yes, easy way out as they believe the narrative as historical whereas they have no validation of it.
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Reply #6472 - April 16, 2019, 12:33 PM

Quote from: mundi on April 15, 2019, 09:20 PM
.................... idea around these inscriptions?................

On those words of mundi .. let me add some links..

Archaeological Dating Methods 2014 by David W. Cloud.. and that dr. prof. Mr. David wrote
Quote
We Refuse Dates That Contradict the Bible For the following important reasons we refuse to accept archaeological dates that contradict the Bible: First, the Bible has demonstrated its accuracy in the face of the most vicious assaults, whereas the skeptics have been proven wrong consistently.

Consider that in the 19th century, skeptics claimed that writing didn’t exist in Moses’ day. Tey doubted the existence of Ur of the Chaldees, of the advanced ancient city-states and
religious towers mentioned in Genesis 10-11, of complex legal codes in that era, of camels in Palestine in the days of Abraham, of King David and King Solomon, of the Hittites
and the Philistines, of Sargon and Nebuchadnezzar and Belshazzar, to name a few. Tey said that the book of Acts was flled with historical inaccuracies. In all of these cases and hundreds more, the skeptics were wrong and the Bible was right.

well I love it.. well let me add some links

Dating Methods (Absolute and Relative) in Archaeology of Art

Dating Techniques In Archaeology By: Grahame Johnston

Rock Art Dating Methods: Problems and Solutions Absolute Dating Problems from Saudi-archaeology.com

THE MYSTERY STONE Does a rock in New Mexico show the Ten Commandments in ancient Hebrew? Harvard professor says yes. By Batya Ungar-Sargon

and that is the stone.. Hmm.. Bible must have written in New Mexico.. otherwise how is it found in US of A and the stone is dated for biblical times...??

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- mundi
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Reply #6473 - April 16, 2019, 03:50 PM

Dating of inscriptions:

That is a s problem, and in your list you obviously show some fakes.

The Harran and Zebed inscriptions seem to be reliably dated, but always good indeed to keep in mind it could be wrong.
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Reply #6474 - April 16, 2019, 06:01 PM

Karaism:

Apparently G. Dye is doing work on Karaism: https://www.academia.edu/38824446/New_Perspectives_on_the_History_of_Karaism_Nouvelles_perspectives_sur_lhistoire_du_kara%C3%AFsme._Colloque_international_-_Bruxelles_-_13-16_mai_2019

I think it is an example of the diversity of ideologies of post-antiquity.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Karaism

Coming back to the Quran, why not a group of people under sponsoring of a mecenas coming up with a text in an almost secret script (Arabic). Only a small group of litterati (the ones reading Arabic, which was an almost secret society), knew the contents. Script was later divulged amongst more leaders, without probably the holy text (Quran) being read and known by them.
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Reply #6475 - April 16, 2019, 06:09 PM

Quote from: mundi on April 16, 2019, 03:50 PM
Dating of inscriptions:

That is a s problem, and in your list you obviously show some fakes. ..

well i deliberately choose to show a fake inscription but apart from fakes there are many problems in inscriptions., such as interpretations of inscriptions and dating itself is a problem dear mundi .. but question to you.,

did you come across any publication that has highlighted Arabic inscriptions before Islam say between 3rd century to 6th century in the present Shia geographical area such as Iran, Iraq(Near the border towns of present Iran .. Basrah.. Amarah ..) and present Yemen ??

Anyways let me add the book link of

Kitab Al-Zaharah A PDF FILE 400 pages

Kitāb al-Zahrah (The Book of the Flower). The first half that book was composed by Abū Bakr Muḥammad Ibn Abī Sulaiman Dāwūd al-Iṣfahānī (A.H. 297/A.D. 909). Edited from the Unique Manuscript at the Egyptian Library by A. R. Nykl in collaboration with Ibrahim Tuqan. 9¾ × 6¾, pp. viii + 406. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1932. 11s.

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #6476 - April 16, 2019, 08:09 PM

Yeez,

Ok, explain yourself further. What point do you want to make?
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Reply #6477 - April 17, 2019, 09:24 AM

Quote
Yeez,

Ok, explain yourself further. What point do you want to make?

dear mundi that is such a great question... great point ,,,,,, I am pulling my hair to answer that general ..... question/point ........... to my self (NOT TO YOU)., it is indeed tough..

What is the purpose? what point am i making by writing posts and asking question when i have gillion things to do? .... Woff .. difficult one..
.
As far as this point / questions for you concerned ., the logic behind is very simple..

Quote
1. well i deliberately choose to show a fake inscription but apart from fakes there are many problems in inscriptions., such as interpretations of inscriptions and dating itself is a problem dear mundi .. but question to you.,

2, did you come across any publication that has highlighted Arabic inscriptions before Islam say between 3rd century to 6th century in the present Shia geographical area such as Iran, Iraq(Near the border towns of present Iran .. Basrah.. Amarah ..) and present Yemen ??

well there are serious scientific, logical problems and and questions in dating an object ., in fact it is much more difficult scientific problem to date accurately a graffiti or paintings, or writing on rocks than dating a rock itself... the error bars could be as high as 100 years or more....

2nd question to you is because I am under the impression that you are in touch with published literature on such subjects as proto-Islam .. Proto-Quran... ((years.. 550 to 630)) . concepts that may have originated in some Christian/Jewish/Arab pagan or Roman multi cultural environment... So the point is much of the Quran(NOT WHOLE BOOK) can be written anywhere including in areas such as Iran or even Yemen

So question to you was were there any prominent Christian /Jewish /Roman monasteries or prominent centers in these countries during early Islamic times ... and that is related to Quran..

We must realize Quran is a simplest book., it is a book of individual stories based upon OT/NT and bit of pagan stories that were floating around middle east .. The book is like a George Bernard Shaw play The Doctor's Dilemma .. It is mainly a book of dialogues ., So many of these stories of Quran could have been written anywhere not necessarily in Syria or in Petra or in Jordan or in Israel/Palestine ..

well as usual let me add some publications/book links here

Quote
SEEING ISLAM AS OTHERS SAW IT A SURVEY AND EVALUATION OF CHRISTIAN, JEWISH AND ZOROASTRIAN WRITINGS ON EARLY ISLAM ......ROBERT G. HOYLAND

THE SECRET TEACHINGS OF ALL AGES by Manly P. Hall

boy that book is from CIA

The Roots of Muslim Rage Why so many Muslims deeply resent the West, and why their bitterness will not easily be mollified by BERNARD LEWIS SEPTEMBER 1990 ISSUE .. that 30 year old article still fits well..

Religion and Secrecy After September 11 Michael Barkun

Karen Armstrong: "There is nothing in the Islam that is more violent than Christianity"

The True Secret of Islam by Dr. Amira Ayad

The Islamic Personality VOL .ONE – INTELLECTUAL & ISLAMIC SCIENCES by Sheikh Taqīuddīn An-Nabahānī

EXTREME VETTING & THE MUSLIM BAN by Harsha Panduranga, Faiza Patel, and Michael W. Price

The war on Islam by Enver Masud 2010

THE SECRET CULTS OF ISLAM BY DUDLEY WRIGHT

MEDIEVAL ISLAM by GUSTAVE E. VON GRUNEBAUM

well many of those links should go in to resource center

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #6478 - April 24, 2019, 09:09 AM

Quote from: mundi on April 16, 2019, 06:01 PM
Karaism:

Apparently G. Dye is doing work on Karaism: https://www.academia.edu/38824446/New_Perspectives_on_the_History_of_Karaism_Nouvelles_perspectives_sur_lhistoire_du_kara%C3%AFsme._Colloque_international_-_Bruxelles_-_13-16_mai_2019

Yes, Karaism is an interesting thing. Somehow, it could be very tempting to see it in relation with the Quran. But it seems appears after the 7th c. I think Dye thought about it.

Quote
Coming back to the Quran, why not a group of people under sponsoring of a mecenas coming up with a text in an almost secret script (Arabic). Only a small group of litterati (the ones reading Arabic, which was an almost ~~secret society~~), knew the contents. Script was later divulged amongst more leaders, without probably the holy text (Quran) being read and known by them.

Ground this with available sources.
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Reply #6479 - April 24, 2019, 10:08 AM

Altara .. Hi Altara.. what happened ?? I read your response to me .. and I was reading my good friend Akay and by the time I was trying to respond to you your response to me has been deleted.. Why? there was NOTHING WRONG in what you said along with few yawns

if I remember your deleted response correctly, you questioned these points of my post to mundi with couple of yawns

Quote from: yeezevee on April 17, 2019, 09:24 AM
...........................

Quote
1.) ............So question to you was were there any prominent Christian /Jewish /Roman monasteries or prominent centers in these countries during early Islamic times ... and that is related to Quran..

2). ...... it is a book of individual stories based upon OT/NT and bit of pagan stories that were floating around middle east ..

3). .....So many of these stories of Quran could have been written anywhere not necessarily in Syria or in Petra or in Jordan or in Israel/Palestine .....

Altara correct me here

So you did not like me saying . "Jewish monasteries" right?? correct me if I am wrong dear Altara..

So question to you now .. Were there any Jewish Monasteries from Jewish sects in the middle east during the time between say.. some 100 AD to 500 AD??

When I say "monastery" from Jewish Faith or from other faiths ........ what I mean is this

Quote
Monasticism .. a word that is originated from Greeks("mono" means "alone") or living life alone ... or "monkhood" is a religious way of life in which one renounces worldly pursuits to devote oneself fully to spiritual work. ..

IN OTHER WORDS.. NO WIFE ..NO CHILDREN .. NO FRIENDS.. NO PETS ..NO INTERNET .. way of living life .. It is true it is NOT there in "RABBINICAL JUDAISM " or In Islam or in that Zoroastrianism religious books and is not as prevalent as in say Roman Catholicism, in Eastern Orthodoxy Christian sects .. in Hinduism.. In Buddhism...in Jainism ...etc etc faiths ...

but but .. again Altara .. let me repeat the question .. were there any Jewish sects that were practicing some sort of Monasticism or Monastic way of life with in Jewish faith of that time .say between 1st century AD to 5th century??

Anyways murders mayhem everywhere in the name of faith .. life is tough and it disappears .. but what one has to do ONE HAS TO DO... and my goal is to educate folks and arguing with folks that follow the posts of my good friend Akay.. Akii in this forum and in the world wide web..

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Topic: Qur'anic studies today

mundi

Reply #6450 - April 12, 2019, 09:11 PM

Altara

Reply #6451 - April 13, 2019, 09:38 AM

mundi

Reply #6452 - April 13, 2019, 12:06 PM

Altara

Reply #6453 - April 13, 2019, 02:21 PM

mundi

Reply #6454 - April 13, 2019, 02:27 PM

yeezevee

Reply #6455 - April 13, 2019, 03:07 PM

Altara

Reply #6456 - April 13, 2019, 05:59 PM

Altara

Reply #6457 - April 13, 2019, 06:06 PM

mundi

Reply #6458 - April 13, 2019, 06:10 PM

Altara

Reply #6459 - April 13, 2019, 06:24 PM

yeezevee

Reply #6460 - April 13, 2019, 06:30 PM

Altara

Reply #6461 - April 13, 2019, 07:27 PM

mundi

Reply #6462 - April 13, 2019, 07:29 PM

Altara

Reply #6463 - April 13, 2019, 08:12 PM

mundi

Reply #6464 - April 14, 2019, 07:36 AM

Altara

Reply #6465 - April 14, 2019, 11:53 PM

yeezevee

Reply #6466 - April 15, 2019, 09:10 PM

yeezevee

Reply #6467 - April 15, 2019, 09:16 PM

mundi

Reply #6468 - April 15, 2019, 09:20 PM

yeezevee

Reply #6469 - April 15, 2019, 09:26 PM

Marc S

Reply #6470 - April 15, 2019, 10:04 PM

Altara

Reply #6471 - April 16, 2019, 12:19 AM

yeezevee

Reply #6472 - April 16, 2019, 12:33 PM

mundi

Reply #6473 - April 16, 2019, 03:50 PM

mundi

Reply #6474 - April 16, 2019, 06:01 PM

yeezevee

Reply #6475 - April 16, 2019, 06:09 PM

mundi

Reply #6476 - April 16, 2019, 08:09 PM

yeezevee

Reply #6477 - April 17, 2019, 09:24 AM

Altara

Reply #6478 - April 24, 2019, 09:09 AM

yeezevee

Reply #6479 - April 24, 2019, 10:08 AM

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