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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6930 - June 08, 2019, 08:20 PM
    Mahgraye,

    You repeat like a mantra that there is only one Quran. Even the tradition allows many readings so you know this is not true.

    Just like you keep on saying (against better knowledge), there is only 1 Quran, is this the reason why different sects so easily accepted Cairo 1924?

    With other dogmas, one would have expected big disputes about what the correct reading was when the committee decided in 1924. But nothing, all agreed, there is only 1 Quran. As if the content doesnt really matter, as long as everyone believes it is the same, all is good.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6931 - June 08, 2019, 09:41 PM
    Provided one knows what the relevant terms actually mean, then yes, there is only one Quran, variant readings or not. Here is the best part: the readings themselves demonstrate that there is one Quran.

    The Quran and the relevant reading existed prior to 1923 and there was no problem then for there to be a problem after 1923. The edition amounted to one or two orthographic improvements. That is all.

    I guess I do not understand the significance of any of this.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6932 - June 08, 2019, 10:11 PM
    Quote from: mundi on June 08, 2019, 06:22 PM
    Marc Durie summarizing his new book:

    https://interfaceinstitute.org/2019/06/08/the-qurans-turn-to-violence/


    Interesting...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6933 - June 09, 2019, 05:15 AM
    A comment on Durie's article above. According to Tom Holland the people who were occupied by the Muslims
    basically had these possibilities: The Jews and Christians could stay, but as dhimmies. All others had to become Muslims, flee or get killed.
    So in a way the Believers were acting out God's punishment, as described by Durie.
     BTW, does anyone of you know where Holland has the sources for this claim?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6934 - June 09, 2019, 07:43 AM
    Magraye,

    Quote
    The edition amounted to one or two orthographic improvements


    You gravely underestimate the orthographic differences. Deduced from Melchert's estimate, the variation of consonants alone in the rasm is around 1000 (Thank you Björn for the Van Putten twitter reference). We now also have Brubaker's list of corrections of which we don't know how they were propagated up to 1924.

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/25728289?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

    Melchert in his talk asked the question how come no one up to now did this work of quantifying and analysing the variants. He says bc not enough people busy with it up to now, but probably another  reason is because of the mantra "there is 1 Quran".
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6935 - June 09, 2019, 07:46 AM
    Björn,

    Quote
    The Jews and Christians could stay, but as dhimmies. All others had to become Muslims, flee or get killed.


    That is the practice we have seen in Muslim lands. I dont know if more proof is needed. Added to that one must say that in these lands, more diversity was preserved than in the Christian west.

    A reason for that imo is that there is no official dhimmi status for non-christians in Christian ideology, so left were the options of conversion or be killed. Most chose conversion...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6936 - June 09, 2019, 09:43 AM
    I don't know what is correct, but according to MVP, all Qurans, except the underlying text in the Sanaa manuscript, stem from one archetype. I don't know if someone has done research on all the different Qurans that obviously are on the market if they stem from one archetype.
    MVP
    "The title of my talk speaks of a 'Quranic Archetype'; What I mean by this is that I think that all Qurans we have go back to a single written source -- a single book from which all Qurans were copied (with the notable exception the Sanaa Palimpsest)."

    https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1067737334328610816
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6937 - June 09, 2019, 10:34 AM
    Quote from: mundi on June 09, 2019, 07:43 AM
    Magraye,

    You gravely underestimate the orthographic differences. Deduced from Melchert's estimate, the variation of consonants alone in the rasm is around 1000 (Thank you Björn for the Van Putten twitter reference). We now also have Brubaker's list of corrections of which we don't know how they were propagated up to 1924.

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/25728289?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

    Melchert in his talk asked the question how come no one up to now did this work of quantifying and analysing the variants. He says bc not enough people busy with it up to now, but probably another  reason is because of the mantra "there is 1 Quran".


    The consequence is that in fact there was no "oral" tradition. That the Quranic texts were texts since the beginning therefore that this key point of the narrative is inexact. This change all the perspective regarding the emergence of the text (and all the narrative...). Suffice just to reflect. But as I already said, they say the contrary because the Quranic authors (God...)in the text say (more or less ambiguously as usual) that it was "oral"  saving them to wonder from where those texts come from as the texts was destined to persuade them that what it said was coming from God, : this "oral" proclamation was mandatory for the authors side, to put aside the question of where come from the text.
    Now they say that it was "dialects" ; Melchert in his lecture refute the argument reading the Muslim sources. The emperor new clothes... It is a text. Now the question is: who/when/how.
    I have (yawn...) a proposition about that. Which fit the sources (yawn...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6938 - June 09, 2019, 10:52 AM
    Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on June 09, 2019, 09:43 AM
    I don't know what is correct, but according to MVP, all Qurans, except the underlying text in the Sanaa manuscript, stem from one archetype. I don't know if someone has done research on all the different Qurans that obviously are on the market if they stem from one archetype.
    MVP
    "The title of my talk speaks of a 'Quranic Archetype'; What I mean by this is that I think that all Qurans we have go back to a single written source -- a single book from which all Qurans were copied (with the notable exception the Sanaa Palimpsest)."

    https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1067737334328610816


    MVP is wrong, Sanaa Palimpsest go back to the same single written source. Difference were that the exemplar from which Sanaa Palimpsest was copied was probably not a codex but folios, was probably in very poor condition, therefore words was replaced by synonyms with the help of the context, etc. There was no sura order because there is no order specified  in earliest ms, no title, etc.
    As MVP is not an historian but a linguist he thinks only inside this frame. Thus works human brain (yawn...).
     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6939 - June 09, 2019, 12:21 PM
    Altara,

    Indeed, the evidence points to "no oral"to start with, together with common sense. That is quite convincing.

    But how do we put Durie's theory  together with the genesis of the text. In his theory, it seems to be necessary that there is someone sitting in the scribal workshop, producing texts first for the "warner", later for the "avenger". As if someone is sitting in the broadcasting studio, writing texts to fit the changing narrative.

    How can we imagine things to have happened since the Quran seems to be telling real life sermons directed at a group of people/warriors taking instructions. Can you be a bit more specific how you see things?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6940 - June 09, 2019, 12:21 PM
    Quote
    MVP is wrong, Sanaa Palimpsest go back to the same single written source. Difference were that the exemplar from which Sanaa Palimpsest was copied was probably not a codex but folios, was probably in very poor condition, therefore words was replaced by synonyms with the help of the context, etc. There was no sura order because there is no order specified  in earliest ms, no title, etc.

    As MVP is not an historian but a linguist he thinks only inside this frame. Thus works human brain (yawn...).


    MVP has his reasons for believing that. He will soon publish a paper showing that these manuscripts all go back to a single archetype. That the palimpsest diverges from the standard vulgata is well-known and several explanations have been offered to account for that fact. I am personally a fan of this theory of yours but you must take into account what Sidky, Cellard, and MVP have written on the topic. My understanding (not saying I believe this) is that the palimpsest was not produced in a study circle (pace Hilali) to not be a proper codext, given the materials it was written on.

    Anyway, can you add some further details to your explanation? I might want to use it an essay.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6941 - June 09, 2019, 12:23 PM
    Quote
    You gravely underestimate the orthographic differences. Deduced from Melchert's estimate, the variation of consonants alone in the rasm is around 1000 (Thank you Björn for the Van Putten twitter reference). We now also have Brubaker's list of corrections of which we don't know how they were propagated up to 1924.


    Obviously, the total number is around 1000 and up. This I aware of. It does not detract from my remark.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6942 - June 09, 2019, 01:18 PM
    A comment on the oral traditions. In this tweet, Gabriel S. Reynolds writes that the Quran doesn't encounter with the bible, but with the oral biblical traditions of late antiquity.
    But of course, that doesn't prove that the Quran was oral in the beginning.
    https://twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1136248464462008320?s=19
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6943 - June 09, 2019, 01:25 PM
    There could have existed a Syriac, written source that was translated into the Meccan chapters.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6944 - June 09, 2019, 02:37 PM
    Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on June 09, 2019, 01:18 PM
    A comment on the oral traditions. In this tweet, Gabriel S. Reynolds writes that the Quran doesn't encounter with the bible, but with the oral biblical traditions of late antiquity.
    But of course, that doesn't prove that the Quran was oral in the beginning.
    https://twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1136248464462008320?s=19

    That tells me Gabriel   Reynolds DID NOT READ QURAN IN ITS ENTIRETY AND COMPARE IT WITH WHAT IS THERE IN BIBLE....

     It is true many of those bible stories i read in Quran may have come from  oral biblical oral story tellers    but there are plenty of verses in Quran that have come from bible word to word

    but mundi....Mahgraye .  help me with that compilation 1924 Quran... Who compiled and where did hey get it from??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6945 - June 09, 2019, 02:42 PM
    Reynolds has very much read the Quran in its entirety and knows what he is talking about.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6946 - June 09, 2019, 02:50 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on June 09, 2019, 02:42 PM
    Reynolds has very much read the Quran in its entirety and knows what he is talking about.

    well that means these oral story tellers of bible stories  have done a great job and the same words were put in to bible and Quran  ..or or these guys were same .. in other words .. when Bible and Quran became books some of these writers may have written  part of  both books...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6947 - June 09, 2019, 03:28 PM
    mundi picks up few words  and says something
    Quote
    Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on June 09, 2019, 05:15 AM
    A comment on Durie's article above. According to Tom Holland the people who were occupied by the Muslims .................
     
    basically had these possibilities: The Jews and Christians could stay, but as dhimmies. All others had to become Muslims, flee or get killed.
    ............................

    Quote from: mundi on June 09, 2019, 07:46 AM
    Björn,

    That is the practice we have seen in Muslim lands. I dont know if more proof is needed. Added to that one must say that in these lands, more diversity was preserved than in the Christian west.

    Quote
    A reason for that imo is that there is no official dhimmi status for non-christians in Christian ideology, so left were the options of conversion or be killed. Most chose conversion...



    well i need to read that article of ....Durie'....??( i read nothing from that author)  but  yes.. proof is needed    mundi you need to give proof when you say something like that...

    please present it along with links...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6948 - June 09, 2019, 04:19 PM
    Quote from: mundi on June 09, 2019, 12:21 PM
    Altara,


    Yes.

    Quote
    Indeed, the evidence points to "no oral"to start with, together with common sense. That is quite convincing.


    Of course. Nonetheless none academic scholar publicly (via articles, books, etc) accept to base his search from this point. Why? They  would be fired at once.

    Quote
    But how do we put Durie's theory  together with the genesis of the text.


    That is the question.

    Quote
    In his theory, it seems to be necessary that there is someone sitting in the scribal workshop, producing texts

     

    Of course.

    Quote
    How can we imagine things to have happened since the Quran seems to be telling real life sermons directed at a group of people/warriors taking instructions.


    Reflect dance

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6949 - June 09, 2019, 04:35 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on June 09, 2019, 12:21 PM
    MVP has his reasons for believing that. He will soon publish a paper showing that these manuscripts all go back to a single archetype. That the palimpsest diverges from the standard vulgata is well-known and several explanations have been offered to account for that fact. I am personally a fan of this theory of yours but you must take into account what Sidky, Cellard, and MVP have written on the topic. My understanding (not saying I believe this) is that the palimpsest was not produced in a study circle (pace Hilali) to not be a proper codext, given the materials it was written on.

    Anyway, can you add some further details to your explanation? I might want to use it an essay.


    Dear Mahgraye,
    I read all especially those with which I'm not agree with. Second, my theory is just brain logic fuelled by Guillaume d'Occam (wiki is your friend).
    I remind that it is his real name that he was, like all the English elite,  from French ascendancy as France have conquered England in 1066 and installed feudalism and his language (Picard, Norman, Bordeaux,  see the Plantagenêt empire... ) I will now count the French words in this passage : 14 words. Hahahaha...!

    edit : 15 (yawn...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6950 - June 09, 2019, 04:54 PM
    Brain logic is not an argument... and I know who William of Ockham is, Altara, haha.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6951 - June 09, 2019, 05:28 PM
    1+1=2
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6952 - June 09, 2019, 05:35 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on June 09, 2019, 02:50 PM
    well that means these oral story tellers of bible stories  have done a great job and the same words were put in to bible and Quran  ..or or these guys were same .. in other words .. when Bible and Quran became books some of these writers may have written  part of  both books...


    None of the  Biblical stories in the Quran were "oral" they come all from well-known books.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6953 - June 09, 2019, 05:35 PM
    Yes. Some were oral, of course.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6954 - June 09, 2019, 05:37 PM
    (-0.7+1.7)^2+(3/3)=(4)^1/2=2
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6955 - June 09, 2019, 07:01 PM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on June 09, 2019, 05:35 PM
    Yes. Some were oral, of course.


    None.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6956 - June 09, 2019, 07:04 PM
    Orallity:

    Isn't it possible that some of the last Surah's were circulating rhymes, poems, songs, psalms or whatever? Then collected and included in the book just for extra volume...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6957 - June 09, 2019, 07:07 PM
    None. Why none?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6958 - June 10, 2019, 10:56 AM
    Quote from: mundi on June 09, 2019, 07:04 PM
    Orallity:

    Isn't it possible that some of the last Surah's were circulating rhymes, poems, songs, psalms or whatever? Then collected and included in the book just for extra volume...


    Well, I do not think so.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #6959 - June 10, 2019, 10:56 AM
    Quote from: Mahgraye on June 09, 2019, 07:07 PM
    None. Why none?


    Reflect.
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