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Reply #7770 - October 05, 2019, 02:10 PM

Quote
reading that Quran . Ash-Shu'araa surah with some 227 verses The Poets gives some historical insight and importance of poetry in Arabian peninsula

I love/ like Arabic poetry Great great stuff.
But oral poetry is not literature, it is not a characteristic of a cultural literary society contrary to what Sinai can says.
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Reply #7771 - October 05, 2019, 02:23 PM

Quote from: Altara on October 05, 2019, 02:04 PM
That it was "pre-Islamic Quran poetry" was what Muslim polygraph have written down in the 9th c. is a conjecture. One does not knows it. One have no sources just to trust them. I do not (yawn...)
Why? Simply because they are circumvented/hypnotised by the story of their "Prophet". And as the Quran speak of poetry...

There is one or two occurrences of the name in the peninsula in other script than the Quranic one identified by Dost. I review the Dost dissertation in my work and deal with each of his affirmations.

He highlighted those words of Wansbrough. The Quran book closure in the 9thc appears to be late as one have MS' (incomplete) from the beginning of the 8th .c (but it is still conjecture as one cannot date them precisely). Sinai says that the 9th c. Wansbrough' considering that is too late. He his right about this.
..............................
Iraq (from the Gulf/East peninsula to Edessa) is of course the place where emerged Quranic texts.
Not Western peninsula, neither the centre, Yemen, etc.

well that is possible .................. as it is well known Edessa was the site of a famous battle between the Sasanian Empire and the Roman Empire and It fell to the Muslim conquest in 638, later by Byzantium in 1031 and became the center of the Crusader state of the County of Edessa from 1098–1144. ......................

I mean all that area was dominated by Arab Christianity/Arab Christians ... yet large number of people were speaking in Arabic as fluently as other languages

Quote
Yemen has another cursive script.
Unless that there was a lost text written in the cursive yemeni script . It is possible

oops that 980...990... was silly mistake...

Hmm.. Yemen has another cursive script?? Yemen ?? well in that way part of Quran that has large number of OT & NT stories could as well was written in some where in Egypt with 100s of monstrosities .. look at the list

Quote

Monastery of Saint Menas.
St. Damiana Coptic Orthodox Convent - (Damietta)
St. George Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Mit Damsis, Damietta)
St. Menas Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Mariout, Alexandria)
St. Mercurius Coptic Orthodox Nunnery - (Alexandria)
Ennaton Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Dakahlia) - (uninhabited)
Metanoia Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (East Alexandria) - (uninhabited)
Oktikaidekaton Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Alexandria) - (uninhabited)
Pempton Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Mariout, Alexandria) - (uninhabited)
St. Cyprius (Dair Qabriyus) Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Northeast Alexandria) - (uninhabited)
(# 600) Coptic Orthodox Monasteries - (In and outside the city of Alexandria) - (Destroyed in the 7th century)
St. Menas Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Abu Mena) - (Destroyed)
Diocese of Wadi El Natrun

Monastery of Saint Pishoy.
Paromeos Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Wadi El Natrun)
St. Macarius Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Wadi El Natrun)
St. Pishoy Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Wadi El Natrun)
Virgin Mary (El-Sourian) Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Wadi El Natrun)
St. George Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Khatatba, Monufia)
St. Thomas Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Khatatba, Monufia)
Armenian Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (uninhabited)
St. John the Dwarf Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (uninhabited)
St. Moses the Black Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (uninhabited)
Diocese of Cairo

Monastery of the Prophet Jeremiah.
St. Anthony Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Qimn al-Arus)
St. Paul the Theban Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Qimn al-Arus)
St. George Coptic Orthodox Nunnery - (Coptic Cairo)
St. Mercurius (Abu-Sefein) Coptic Orthodox Convent - (Coptic Cairo)
St. Mercurius Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Tammua)
St. Menas Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Fumm al-Khalig)
St. Mary Coptic Orthodox Convent - (Old Cairo)
St. Samaan the Tanner Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Zabbaleen, Mokattam)
St. Theodore the Oriental Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Haret Elroum)
Virgin Mary Coptic Orthodox Convent - (Haret Zuweila)
St. George Coptic Orthodox Convent - (Haret Zuweila)
St. Barsoum El-Erian Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Monshat Naser, Helwan)
Prophet Jeremiah Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Saqqara) - (uninhabited)
St. Arsenius Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Wadi al-Tih) - (uninhabited)
Diocese of Fayyum
Archangel Gabriel Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Naqlun, Fayyum)
Holy Virgin Mary (Deir al-Hammam) Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Luhan, Fayyum)
St. Macarius of Alexandria Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Wadi Elrayan, Fayyum)
St. George Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Fayyum)
Diocese of Beni Suef
St. Samuel Coptic Orthodox Monastery
Diocese of Eastern Desert

Monastery of St. Anthony - (Eastern Desert).
St. Anthony Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Eastern Desert)
St. Paul the Anchorite Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Eastern Desert)
St. Catherine Greek Orthodox Monastery - (Saint Catherine)
Diocese of Minya & al-Ashmunein
al-Sanquriya Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Oxyrhynchus)
Holy Virgin Mary Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Minya)
St. Fana Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Qasr Hur)
St. Pishoy Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Deir el-Bersha, Mallawi)
St. John (Abu Hinnis) Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Ansena) - (uninhabited)
Holy Virgin Mary Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Minya) - (uninhabited)
Diocese of Asyut

The Hanging Monastery - (Deir El-Mualaq).
Holy Virgin Mary Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Deir el Ganadla, Asyut)
Holy Virgin Mary Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Durunka)
Holy Virgin Mary Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (El-Qusiya)
The Hanging Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Deir El-Mualaq)
St. Apollo at Bawit Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Asyut) - (uninhabited)
Diocese of Sohag

Monastery of St. Shenouda (Left) & Monastery of St. Karas (Right).
Archangel Michael Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Akhmim)
Holy Virgin Mary Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Hawawish, Akhmim)
St. George (Dair al-Hadid) Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Akhmim)
Coptic Orthodox Monastery of the Martyrs - (Akhmim)
St. Pachomius the Martyr Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Akhmim)
St. Pisada Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Akhmim)
St. Thomas the Hermit Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Akhmim)
St. Karas Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Sohag)
St. Michael Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (as-Salamuni)
St. Pishay Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Sohag)
St. Shenouda The Archimandrite Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Sohag)
Abouna Yassa Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Tima)
The Seven Mountains Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Bir al-'Ain)
Naga ed-Deir (ancient monastery excavation site near just north of Girga)
Diocese of Qena

Monastery of the Archangel Michael - (Qamula, Qena).
Holy Cross Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Hagir Danfīq, Qena)
St. Badaba Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Nag Hammadi, Qena)
Archangel Michael Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Naqada, Qena)
St. George Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Naqada, Qena)
Archangel Michael Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Qamula, Qena)
St. Andrews Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Qamula, Qena)
St. Pisentius Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Qamula, Qena)
St. Victor Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Qamula, Qena) - (uninhabited)
Diocese of Luxor

Monastery of St. Theodore the Warrior - (Luxor).
St. George Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Mahrosa, Luxor)
St. George Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Riziqat, Luxor)
Coptic Orthodox Monastery of the Martyrs - (Esna, Luxor)
St. Matthew the Potter Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Esna, Luxor)
St. Pachomius Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (El-Shayeb, Luxor)
St. Pishoy Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Armant, Luxor)
St. Theodore the Warrior Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Luxor)
St. Wannas Coptic Orthodox Monastery - (Luxor)

Look at all those monasteries and where they are now and How converts of Islam ....LOCALS.... change their complete history & culture and their back ground

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7772 - October 05, 2019, 02:27 PM

Quote from: Altara on October 05, 2019, 02:04 PM
That it was "pre-Islamic Quran poetry" was what Muslim polygraph have written down in the 9th c. is a conjecture. One does not knows it. One have no sources just to trust them. I do not (yawn...)
Why? Simply because they are circumvented/hypnotised . by the story of their "Prophet". And as the Quran speak of poetry..

.........................

Altara I completely agree to disagree with that part of your post .. It also tells me you have not read that chapter of Quran "surah Ash-Shu'araa" carefully

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7773 - October 05, 2019, 02:47 PM

Quote
Hmm.. Yemen has another cursive script?? Yemen ??

Yes

Quote
well in that way part of Quran that has large number of OT & NT stories could as well was written in some where in Egypt with 100s of monstrosities .. look at the list

In Egypt at that time there was no Arab population. Hence no Arab scripts (see Al jallad for the numerous Arab script existing) used. The Copt script for the Copt language, and Greek script for the rest as in the all Orient under Roman rule.
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Reply #7774 - October 05, 2019, 03:03 PM

Quote from: Altara on October 05, 2019, 02:47 PM

..........In Egypt at that time there was no Arab population. Hence no Arab scripts ..................

what was Arab population?? who was Arab at that time?? only people living in Saudi Arabia?? were there no Arabic speaking/writing population in Syria..Persia.. Iraq of that time??

It appears 99% of folks who explore early Islamc history believe that ONLY THE BOOK QURAN was in arabic and it was the first book and nothing else was written before quran in Arabic.,

that is not believable for me dear Altara

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I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7775 - October 05, 2019, 03:32 PM

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what was Arab population??

Yeez one have already (at length) discussed of this question. I remember to have direct you toward some scholars (Fisher, etc) available in Academia . Read their work.

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who was Arab at that time?? only people living in Saudi Arabia??

Nope.

Quote
were there Arab population in Syria-Palestine.

Yes, imported by the Romans to counter those of
Quote
Iraq of that time

vassals/friends/working for and campaigning with the Persians.
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Reply #7776 - October 05, 2019, 03:53 PM

Quote from: Altara on October 05, 2019, 03:32 PM

Yeez one have already (at length) discussed of this question. I remember to have direct you toward
1. some scholars (Fisher, etc) available in Academia . Read their work.

2. Yes, imported by the Romans to counter those of vassals/friends/working for and campaigning with the Persians.

well there is so much to read... all right I will read., I guess you are talking about this one

but you conveniently evaded important Question dear Altara... lol....

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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7777 - October 05, 2019, 04:15 PM

C14 Dating Quranic manuscripts:

I have a list of 5 manuscripts now for which I have a scientific reliable C14 dating of latest 650 (95%). The chances that all of them are of 650 is almost nihil. My guess is that around 630 the main corpus was as it is today (the rasm).

All the weird verses Yeez made me look up can be found in one of these manuscripts (I looked them up on Corpus Coranicum). Some exceptions. The alexander story is missing (probably accidental, could still turn up). The word Mecca is also missing . But I really think that is also just by chance.
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Reply #7778 - October 05, 2019, 05:55 PM

Quote
It appears 99% of folks who explore early Islamc history believe that ONLY THE BOOK QURAN was in arabic and it was the first book and nothing else was written before quran in Arabic.,
that is not believable for me dear Altara

It is not a question of belief, but of science.ONLY THE BOOK QURAN was in Arabic , yes. There was no book, i.e. a literary crafted work written down to our knowledge before it.
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Reply #7779 - October 05, 2019, 08:14 PM

Quote from: mundi on October 05, 2019, 12:45 PM
Zeca would say it's bc of the Romans and Greeks which they preferred over the OT...

To be more precise I’d say that early Christianity developed in the Greek speaking part of the Roman world through a Jewish sect opening itself up to converts without requiring them to follow Jewish law, with the converts soon coming to dominate. Legal monogamy was a deep seated part of Greek and Roman custom and society and it seems unremarkable to me that it was adopted by Christianity, given that early Christians were mainly Greek speaking subjects or citizens of the Roman empire. I think it would just have been a natural part of their world view. Anyway here’s an academic article that may be more useful than my thoughts: https://www.princeton.edu/~pswpc/pdfs/scheidel/060807.pdf

wiki on Roman marriage: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_ancient_Rome

Prenuptial agreement from Cairo Genizah: https://mobile.twitter.com/afzaque/status/1179350408671760384

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Reply #7780 - October 05, 2019, 09:37 PM

Zeca,

Quote
Legal monogamy was a deep seated part of Greek and Roman custom and society and it seems unremarkable to me that it was adopted by Christianity, given that early Christians were mainly Greek speaking subjects or citizens of the Roman empire.

Thought experiment, imagine the Christian holy book was the Quran, Christ was a polygamist and had concubines. Would Christianity have developed monogamy?

Your linked article concludes:

Quote
Pauline Christianity may well have been monogamous because
1/it evolved in a Greco-Roman context and
2/not because of anything that was specific to this movement,
3/ let alone its latently polygamous Jewish background.

I can agree to 1/, Christianity is monogamous bc of the Greco/Roman head start. But the statement that follows under 2/, that nothing specific to the movement contributed (seen my above thought experiment) is imo a stretch.

Paul was a Jew, not a Greco/Roman who had a "deep seated"leaning towards monogamy. He disconnected himself from Jewish law (read here more narrowly polygamy) under influence of the newly emerging ideology that was Christianity.

So where does Christian ideology come in? The author of your article mentions
1/ Greco/Roman custom
2/ the movement (Christianity) that apparently contributed NOTHING
3/ Jewish background

I don't think this is a fair representation. We have here 3 interacting ideologies. Greco/Roman-Christianity- Judaism. Apparently number 1 and number 3 has agency. But number 2, Christianity is apparently a void.

Weird reasoning.
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Reply #7781 - October 05, 2019, 10:29 PM

Quote
It also tells me you have not read that chapter of Quran "surah Ash-Shu'araa" carefully "surah Ash-Shu'araa" carefully

Hahaha!

An exceptional well crafted piece of work on which I have passed many hours, days, and I think almost two months .
Especially this : "

-224- And the Poets, it is those straying in Evil, who follow them:
-225- Seest thou not that they wander distracted in every valley?
-226- And that they say what they practise not?"

Haha, hahaha, hahahaha! (ad infinitum...)
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Reply #7782 - October 06, 2019, 04:04 AM

Quote from: Altara on October 05, 2019, 05:55 PM
1. It is not a question of belief, ~~but of science.~~

2. ONLY THE BOOK QURAN was in Arabic , yes. There was no book, i.e. a literary crafted work written down to our knowledge before it.

1_No..no...noooo., Science doesn't work like that dear Alltara ., Science works with probabilities

2_ I am not talking about a book ... I am talking about Poems, prose, literature ..... some Arabic document .. .......evolution of script,.........and written language., THEY MUST HAVE BEEN WRITTEN BEFORE SOME ONE GETS A BOOK OUT OF A LANGUAGE. for that matter any language ..not just Arabic or Quran .. Moreover Converts of Islam are notorious burning books .burning anything and everything that Questions Islam

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7783 - October 06, 2019, 04:08 AM

Quote from: Altara on October 05, 2019, 10:29 PM
~~Hahaha!~~

An exceptional well crafted piece of work on which I have passed many hours, days, and I think almost two months .
Especially this : "

-224- And the Poets, it is those straying in Evil, who follow them:
-225- Seest thou not that they wander distracted in every valley?
-226- And that they say what they practise not?"

~~Haha, hahaha, hahahaha! (ad infinitum...)~~

yes.. the book is well crafted ., much of the book .. whole book is well crafted (IF WE REMOVE ADDED JUNK FROM IT)

No..no.. you have not read it... what does whole chapter says? in fact in that chapter there is some real history in it ., read it again ., I will read it for you in this folder ...

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7784 - October 06, 2019, 10:10 AM

1/
Quote
_ I am not talking about a book ..

2
Quote
/I am talking about Poems, prose, literature ..... some Arabic document

There is no literary document. Maybe there was only administrative ones. And one did not find them. It is therefore a conjecture.

No Poems, prose, literature written in papyrus or anything else before the Quran. There is nothing. Arabs were semi oral culture. Their scripts were too defective. Moreover that is why they have completed their script after that the rasm be appeared because the corpus had to be deciphered and completed and readable to many people.
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Reply #7785 - October 06, 2019, 10:36 AM

Altara,

Quote
Moreover that is why they have completed their script after that the rasm be appeared because the corpus had to be deciphered and completed and readable to many people.

How do you know that? There are very early Arabic papyri with diacriticals. But there are no pre-islamic papyri found. But they must have existed...

I suggested that Arabic might have been used pre-islam by traders as a kind of secret script (like Hebrew was sometimes used). Speculation of course...What is your theory for the conservation of the arabic script over the centuries?
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Reply #7786 - October 06, 2019, 10:37 AM

Quote
No..no.. you have not read it... what does whole chapter says?

It says as usual in a different way the same thing than the other sura.
When you says "It's a beautiful day" it means exactly the same thing as " The sky is blue".
Ha, haha, hahaha, hahahahaha! (ad infinitum). But it appears to you as different. But it is not, it is exactly the same meaning . (Hahaha, etc) And you do not get the trick. (Hahaha, etc)

Quote
in fact in that chapter there is some real history in it ., read it again ., I will read it for you in this folder ...

There is no clear reference to a precise historical event in the Quran.
Clear and precise.
It is normal as the authors do not want to be pinpointed.
The reference to the Persian war in Q 30 is not clear and not precise : the conflict last since 224 : hahaha, hahahahaha! (ad infinitum).
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Reply #7787 - October 06, 2019, 10:49 AM

Quote from: mundi on October 06, 2019, 10:36 AM
Altara,

Yes,

Quote
How do you know that?

Know what?

Quote
There are very early Arabic papyri with diacriticals.

So what? Not all diacriticals, like the PERF 558 which is an administrative document . Not literary.

Quote
But there are no pre-islamic papyri found.

Quote
But they must have existed...

Yes administrative
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Reply #7788 - October 06, 2019, 10:56 AM

Thread on Adam and Iblis in the Quran:

https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1179186042622091264

https://mobile.twitter.com/shahanSean/status/1179769378268692480

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Reply #7789 - October 06, 2019, 11:26 AM

Thread on reconstruction recitation of the Uthmanic Quran :

https://twitter.com/azforeman/status/1180046220229787648

Seems this recitation was quite different from the later developed recitation in Classical Arabic.

So although the rasm has been meticulously preserved, the reading/dialect was clearly not. Is this another indication that the book was kept mainly on the shelf for decades? Together with earliest attestation of Dome of the Rock in 685, this is quite bizar...
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Reply #7790 - October 06, 2019, 12:02 PM

Quote from: zeca on October 06, 2019, 10:56 AM
Thread on Adam and Iblis in the Quran:

Well...

Quote
The Qurʾan often recasts biblical lore in a new light

. Nihi nove sub sole here (yawn...)

Quote
Perhaps nowhere is this for visible than in its 7 (!) retellings of the creation of Adam and the fall of Iblīs

What conclusions does he draw from it?
Obviously he's not interested in that. He is more interested to be a mufassir.
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Reply #7791 - October 06, 2019, 01:04 PM

Altara - in your view would the original writers and audience of the Quran (or of texts that would end up compiled in the Quran) have had access to and been familiar with canonical biblical scripture in a written form? My impression is that there’s a widespread assumption that they didn’t but is this assumption justified?

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Reply #7792 - October 06, 2019, 02:08 PM

Quote from: Altara on October 06, 2019, 10:37 AM
It says as usual in a different way the same thing than the other sura.
When you says "It's a beautiful day" it means exactly the same thing as " The sky is blue".
Ha, haha, hahaha, hahahahaha! (ad infinitum). But it appears to you as different. But it is not, it is exactly the same meaning . (Hahaha, etc) And you do not get the trick. (Hahaha, etc)

Altara it is true every surah that have more than 20 or 30 verses says same thing, have same gist , have same theme .. but verses like

Quote
sky is blue
flies have wings
Glory be to allah
allah gave water ..allah gave air..
allah gave life .allah gave bones
allah gave eyes allah gave ass
those who don't follow Islam are Deaf, dumb and blind

are general verses that could be put in to any book., I am not talking about such polemic nonsense verses that are filled pages and pages of Quran ., neither I am talking about those tons of bible stories that are in it dear Altara

I am talking verses in Quran, that are related to the people /real events during the time of Quran writing.. let me see whether you can figure out verses please read that surah Al-Shura (THE POETS) again . here I wrote about it in this very forum..

Quote
https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.msg852453#msg852453
https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.msg856283#msg856283
https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.msg857046#msg857046
https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.msg857088#msg857088
https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.msg857176#msg857176

all those posts are about that Surah.. poets... please read it..

Quote
There is no clear reference to a precise historical event in the Quran.
Clear and precise.
It is normal as the authors do not want to be pinpointed.
The reference to the Persian war in Q 30 is not clear and not precise : the conflict last since 224 : hahaha, hahahahaha! (ad infinitum).

Off course there is NO CLEAR PRECISE HISTORY in quran on anything., Forget about that Persian_Roman war in the east., .,.... If it is there , you and many like you would not have job... .., that is also true to many religious so-called scriptures...including bible.

And ..and what is surprising about that war is those literary written languages which had scripts & writers such as roman, Syrian and Persian that were present during that time also did not write any historical manuscripts about that war ., Or if it was written and was present., much of it/everything of it is lost....burned and buried...

Again when I say History in Quran or extracting history from Quran verses., I am talking about verses that relates to events of its time.. say from year 600 to 700 or 600-800..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7793 - October 06, 2019, 02:25 PM

Quote from: Altara on October 06, 2019, 10:10 AM
1/
2
There is no literary document. Maybe there was only administrative ones. And one did not find them. It is therefore a conjecture.

No Poems, prose, literature written in papyrus or anything else before the Quran. There is nothing. Arabs were semi oral culture. Their scripts were too defective. Moreover that is why they have completed their script after that the rasm be appeared because the corpus had to be deciphered and completed and readable to many people.

The fact you say., that there may be some administrative document in Arabic means there must be similar documents that are NOT related to Administration but poems and prose ..stories .. whatever., It is different question to figure out why so far people in 20th/21st century could not find anything concrete., .

As far as Quranic rasm .. Quran Bernard Shaw style of chi-chat book is concerned.., true such books are not there ., To say nothing in Arabic was written before this book...

Sorry I agree to disagree with you

Quote
Arabs were semi oral culture. Their scripts were too defective.

that is interesting .. by that what you are saying indirectly is .. QURAN WAS NOT WRITTEN BY ARAB FOLKS ., may be it is true ., or may be Arab nomads in desert might have had that semi oral culture., But those who are in touch with Persians, Syrian Christians or Romans .. must have learned something to make Arabic language as script oriented language and must have written something before Quran.

In fact, I say before this book Quran.,..... ARAB CHRISTIANS or THOSE WHO CONVERTED IN TO CHRISTIANITY BEFORE ISLAM, MUST HAVE WRITTEN/TRANSLATED BIBLE STORIES IN TO ARABIC IN WRITTEN SCRIPT..

So in many respects I question your thought process of "THAT QURAN WAS THE FIRST ARABIC MANUSCRIPT and nothing was there in Arabic script before that ..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7794 - October 06, 2019, 02:50 PM

Quote from: zeca on October 06, 2019, 01:04 PM
Altara

Yes,

Quote
- in your view would the original writers and audience of the Quran (or of texts that would end up compiled in the Quran) have had access to and been familiar with canonical biblical scripture in a written form?

Yes.Including the very fact that the Mecca/Kaba frame is historically untenable,and therefore has to be put aside, one gets that it is where there is a strong scribal culture where the texts have emerged. Those places are (very) well know in Orient : Syria-Palestine, Yemen, Iraq (until Edessa) and the West coast of the peninsula.

Quote
My impression is that there’s a widespread assumption that they didn’t but is this assumption justified?

It is, in my view, only justified by the fact that a cult ("Islam") has been created from those texts which therefore were embedded in a history of their origin to which scholars one way or another believe.
If one had found those texts without all of this (cult and history of its origin), scholars would have never hesitated to state its profound connection with scribal culture of the Bible, there fore that "the original writers and audience of the Quran (or of texts that would end up compiled in the Quran) have had access to and been familiar with canonical biblical scripture in a written form."
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Reply #7795 - October 06, 2019, 03:37 PM

Quote from: Altara on October 06, 2019, 02:50 PM
...............................
If one had found those texts without all of this (cult and history of its origin), scholars would have never hesitated to state its profound connection with scribal culture of the Bible, there fore that "the original writers and audience of the Quran (or of texts that would end up compiled in the Quran) have had access to and been familiar with canonical biblical scripture in a written form."

In what language those original writers of Quran had access and had been familiar with canonical biblical scripture in a written form dear Altara??

Arabic?? Greek?? Roman? Syrain?? or in some form of Hebrew??

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #7796 - October 06, 2019, 04:12 PM

Quote
In what language those original writers of Quran had access and had been familiar with canonical biblical scripture in a written form dear Altara??Arabic??

I (really) do not think so. One have none attestation of this.

Quote
Greek?? Roman? Syrain?? or in some form of Hebrew

Canonical (or not) biblical scripture was in Hebrew, Greek,Syriac and Latin.
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Reply #7797 - October 06, 2019, 06:47 PM

Quote from: Altara on October 06, 2019, 02:50 PM

Yes,

Yes.Including the very fact that the Mecca/Kaba frame is historically untenable,and therefore has to be put aside, one gets that it is where there is a strong scribal culture where the texts have emerged. Those places are (very) well know in Orient : Syria-Palestine, Yemen, Iraq (until Edessa) and the West coast of the peninsula.

It is, in my view, only justified by the fact that a cult ("Islam") has been created from those texts which therefore were embedded in a history of their origin to which scholars one way or another believe.
If one had found those texts without all of this (cult and history of its origin), scholars would have never hesitated to state its profound connection with scribal culture of the Bible, there fore that "the original writers and audience of the Quran (or of texts that would end up compiled in the Quran) have had access to and been familiar with canonical biblical scripture in a written form."

Altara, thanks for the reply. Would this make the thinking of the early quranic community comparable, in a way, to some of the thinking in the reformation in Europe - i.e. looking at scripture and failing to find a justification there for existing church structures, practices and doctrines, rather than not knowing about or understanding them?

Which side are you on?
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Reply #7798 - October 06, 2019, 07:45 PM

Altara,

Where is the "West coast of the peninsula"?
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Reply #7799 - October 06, 2019, 07:50 PM

I think he intended to say the east coast rather than west coast.

Which side are you on?
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Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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