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Reply #7980 - October 17, 2019, 12:09 AM

Quote from: zeca on October 16, 2019, 10:21 PM
Would you see it as an uprising with full-time standing armies?

Sort of, yes, especially in the West until 640 maybe more. But not necessarily in Iraq vs the Persians as the war lasts more time.

Quote
The traditional narrative would imply full-time armies but is this supported by contemporary sources?

As far as I know, contemporary sources does not speak of "campaigning season" for the West. For the East it is less clear, therefore it is possible.

Quote
Could the idea of emigration be an indication that soldiers have left their original homes and way of life on a permanent basis? Could that be where the idea of hijra actually comes from?

Interesting question. What is an emigration ?
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Reply #7981 - October 17, 2019, 12:16 AM

Quote from: Marc S on October 16, 2019, 11:12 PM
Sura 5 verses 30 to 32 for example.

I call this a rewriting more than a translation...

Quote
Reflect.

The apprentice always follows the step of the master (yawn...)
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Reply #7982 - October 17, 2019, 12:14 PM

"Sura 5 verses 30 to 32 for example" .. Hmm there are some Quran verses here in the discussion .. why?? is there any real early Islamic history in those verses?? well let read the posts .,

Holy shit.., Boy.... it appears very few know how to read a book like Quran... .. zee discussion starts way back with VERSES COMING FROM SKY...

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Altara: and so?These stories come from the sky rewritten?

Marc : No you just need to have people translating them in order to utilize them within a community.

Altara: Which Quranic texts are translated, can you give an example?

Marc : Sura 5 verses 30 to 32 for example..

Altara: I call this a rewriting more than a translation...

Hmm that is good one., Marc must realize Altara has a point there., anyway let me read Quran..

Quote
5:30.   Then his mind facilitated to him the slaying of his brother so he slew him; then he became one of the losers

5: 31.   Then Allah sent a crow digging up the earth so that he might show him how he should cover the dead body of his brother. He said: Woe me! do I lack the strength that I should be like this crow and cover the dead body of my brother? So he became of those who regret.

5: 32.   For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.

well I again stress here ., to understand those three verse .. one must read at least 5 to10 verses and 5 to 10 verses after the verses of interest

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5:19. O followers of the Book! indeed Our Apostle has come to you explaining to you after a cessation of the (mission of the) apostles, lest you say: There came not to us a giver of good news or a warner, so indeed there has come to you a giver of good news and a warner; and Allah has power over all things.

5:20.   And when Musa said to his people: O my people! remember the favor of Allah upon you when He raised prophets among you and made you kings and gave you what He had not given to any other among the nations.

5:21.   O my people! enter the holy land which Allah has prescribed for you and turn not on your backs for then you will turn back losers.

5:22.   They said: O Musa! surely there is a strong race in it, and we will on no account enter it until they go out from it, so if they go out from it, then surely we will enter.

5:23.   Two men of those who feared, upon both of whom Allah had bestowed a favor, said: Enter upon them by the gate, for when you have entered it you shall surely be victorious, and on Allah should you rely if you are believers.

5:24.   They said: O Musa! we shall never enter it so long as they are in it; go therefore you and your Lord, then fight you both surely we will here sit down.

5:25.   He said: My Lord! Surely I have no control (upon any) but my own self and my brother; therefore make a separation between us and the nation of transgressors.

5:26.   He said: So it shall surely be forbidden to them for forty years, they shall wander about in the land, therefore do not grieve for the nation of transgressors.

5:27.   And relate to them the story of the two sons of Adam with truth when they both offered an offering, but it was accepted from one of them and was not accepted from the other. He said: I will most certainly slay you. (The other) said: Allah only accepts from those who guard (against evil).

5:28.   If you will stretch forth your hand towards me to slay me, I am not one to stretch forth my hand towards you to slay you surely I fear Allah, the Lord of the worlds:

5:29.   Surely I wish that you should bear the sin committed against me and your own sin, and so you would be of the inmates of the fire, and this is the recompense of the unjust.

5:30.   Then his mind facilitated to him the slaying of his brother so he slew him; then he became one of the losers

5:31.   Then Allah sent a crow digging up the earth so that he might show him how he should cover the dead body of his brother. He said: Woe me! do I lack the strength that I should be like this crow and cover the dead body of my brother? So he became of those who regret.

5:32.   For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.

5:33.   The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement,

5:34.   Except those who repent before you have them in your power; so know that Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

5:35.   O you who believe! be careful of (your duty to) Allah and seek means of nearness to Him and strive hard in His way that you may be successful.

5:36.   Surely (as for) those who disbelieve, even if they had what is in the earth, all of it, and the like of it with it, that they might ransom themselves with it from the punishment of the day of resurrection, it shall not be accepted from them, and they shall have a painful punishment.

5:37.   They would desire to go forth from the fire, and they shall not go forth from it, and they shall have a lasting punishment.

5:38.    And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

5:39.    But whoever repents after his iniquity and reforms (himself), then surely Allah will turn to him (mercifully); surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

reading all those verses is a minimum requirement to figure out the reason why the Authors of Quran wrote/said those verses to the believers of Islam... it is NOT just about that story of 'Allah sent crow digging the dead body"

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Reply #7983 - October 17, 2019, 06:42 PM

Quote from: zeca on October 16, 2019, 10:21 PM
Could the idea of emigration be an indication that soldiers have left their original homes and way of life on a permanent basis? Could that be where the idea of hijra actually comes from?

Quote from: Altara on October 17, 2019, 12:09 AM
Interesting question. What is an emigration ?

Presumably when saracens raided a village on the fringes of Palestine, stole some sheep and returned where they came from then this wasn’t emigration, just a successful short term venture for the saracens and a depressing reality of life for the villagers. When an occupying army gave a receipt in Greek and Arabic to a village official in Egypt for the requisition of some sheep as a down payment against the next tax demand then this was emigration, by soldiers who were most likely going to end up settling in the new garrison town at Fustat.

Anyway Patricia Crone had the idea first. It’s maybe worth rereading this article and considering what is changed by the assumption of an uprising in Iraq and no Mecca, Medina or Muhammad.

The First Century Concept of Higra

Which side are you on?
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Reply #7984 - October 17, 2019, 07:38 PM

The Crone article on1st Higra concepts:

I really dont understand what is so good about that article. Just reading the first paragraph gives the impression that Crone hasnt read her own work. This is published in 1994 so she already wrote Hagarism, no excuse there...
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Reply #7985 - October 17, 2019, 08:45 PM

Quote from: zeca on October 17, 2019, 06:42 PM
Could the idea of emigration be an indication that soldiers have left their original homes and way of life on a permanent basis? Could that be where the idea of hijra actually comes from?

Is Hijra a Quranic concept in the narrative or is it a concept (always in the narrative) which means : "soldiers have left their original homes and way of life on a permanent basis"?
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Reply #7986 - October 18, 2019, 09:24 AM

Quote
Quote from: zeca on October 17, 2019, 06:42 PM

Quote
Presumably when saracens raided a village on the fringes of Palestine, stole some sheep and returned where they came from then this wasn’t emigration, just a successful short term venture for the saracens and a depressing reality of life for the villagers. When an occupying army gave a receipt in Greek and Arabic to a village official in Egypt for the requisition of some sheep as a down payment against the next tax demand then this was emigration, by soldiers who were most likely going to end up settling in the new garrison town at Fustat.

Anyway Patricia Crone had the idea first. It’s maybe worth rereading this article and considering what is changed by the assumption of an uprising in Iraq and no Mecca, Medina or Muhammad.

The First Century Concept of Higra

Quote from: mundi on October 17, 2019, 07:38 PM
The Crone article on1st Higra concepts:

I really dont understand what is so good about that article. Just reading the first paragraph gives the impression that Crone hasnt read her own work. This is published in 1994 so she already wrote Hagarism, no excuse there...

Quote from: Altara on October 17, 2019, 08:45 PM
Is Hijra a Quranic concept in the narrative or is it a concept (always in the narrative) which means : "soldiers have left their original homes and way of life on a permanent basis"?

I think "....Hijrah,.....Hejira ..... Hijra......“Migration” ....“Emigration”.... whatever you call it ., it is a very unique concept in Islam and has not come in to Quran from OT & NT

The story of Meccans persecuting Prophet of Islam and his migration to Medina in the year 622 is entirely different from what Quran states about migration/emigration of Muslims at later times for preaching/spreading Islam in faraway lands . It appears very few so-called scholars differentiate between the two .,

And I am not sure this Hijrah story is anything to do with that "saracens soldiers raiding a village on the fringes of Palestine, and steeling some sheep" and I don't think it has to do with what Altara saying
Quote
..............which means : "soldiers have left their original homes and way of life on a permanent basis"?............

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Reply #7987 - October 18, 2019, 12:00 PM

just because of this post of dear mundi ..
Quote from: mundi on October 17, 2019, 07:38 PM
The Crone article on1st Higra concepts:

I really dont understand what is so good about that article. Just reading the first paragraph gives the impression that Crone hasnt read her own work. This is published in 1994 so she already wrote Hagarism, no excuse there...

I have to read that dr. Patricia Crone article on The first century concept of Higra again.,

So now I wonder what is wrong with that article and why mundi says this ..................... "Just reading the first paragraph gives the impression that Crone hasn't read her own work. This is published in 1994 so she already wrote Hagarism, no excuse there..................."

in fact it is very good article dear mundi

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Reply #7988 - October 18, 2019, 01:56 PM

Quote
. "Just reading the first paragraph gives the impression that Crone hasn't read her own work. This is published in 1994 so she already wrote Hagarism, no excuse there...

Mundi do not get that Crone has worked on hypotheses to write Hagarism... . It means that she never considered the traditional account as obsolete.Hagarism... has never been for her the foundation of a new paradigm on which she would built something after. Ne-ver.
I get that it can be perceived as curious from the outside, but this is yet the case. Many people have thought/hoped, considering Hagarism... and Meccan Trade that she was (and will) building the/a real history of Islam. They were wrong, fooled by the scholarly reaction to those books.
She was a great believer. This article and the rest of her production attest it.
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Reply #7989 - October 18, 2019, 05:38 PM

[an old rebuttal to some claims made by altara and mundi in the past]

As to Crone’s conclusion in her 1994 article on the hijrah—conspicuously unknown to those here who claim to have read her writings, since the relevant information is literally outlined in the first paragraph of that article—it is in perfect conformity to what she articulated in Hagarism, p. 9: basically, the word hijrah in the first century, according to Crone, meant emigration to garrison-cities for purposes of conquest, especially the conquest of the Holy Land—only to later be reinterpreted to signify the emigration of Muḥammad from Makkah to Madinah, during the 8th Century. Crone literally thought that the traditional Muslim interpretation of the word emerged in the late-Umayyad or early-Abbasid period and that it is not historical. [Even Mehdy Shaddel accepts this view and argues that the traditional understating of the hijrah emerged in the Marwanid period].

Furthermore, the claims being circulated on Crone’s alleged retraction from Hagarism are extremely exaggerated—indeed, in the very article that is supposed to constitute evidence for her deviation from Hagarism, Crone (‘First Century Concept’, pp. 386–387) reiterates some of the most notable aspects therefrom: the secondariness of the Meccan sanctuary; Muḥammad’s focus on the Holy Land; the NW-Arabian or Jerusalemite qiblah of the first century; and the secondariness of the classical notion of hijrah. [You should just be honest and admit that you haven’t read the article.] She only changed her mind on some issues—namely, the codification of the Quran being one of them, and that was due to recent codicological discoveries (granted, I do not find her reasoning convincing, but that is beside the point), and not, as some here would like us to believe, due to being uncritical or being under pressure. Another issue which she changed her mind on—which is worth mentioning briefly as it is relevant to our discussion—was the utility of the Arabic source material. In Hagarism Crone did not make any use of the Arabic sources, putting it aside in favor of the earlier non-Muslim ones. Matter of fact, she went so far as to claim that one cannot even work the Arabic sources. This, however, changed with the publication of Crone’s 1980 monograph Salves on Horses. Therein Crone argued for the reliability of the Arabic sources as far back as the year 661, focusing specifically on chronology and prosopography. This Crone did by using standard historical-critical methods employed by every historian, for instance: the criterion of embarrassment and dissimilarity; crosschecking with other contemporaneous material in Arabic; and lastly, further crosschecking the material, this time with contemporaneous non-Muslim sources. Having done this, Crone concluded that the Arabic source material pertaining to chronology and prosopography is reliable as far back as the year 661. Indeed, according to Crone, the assumption pertaining to chronological and prosopographical data should be reliable until proven otherwise. This contrasts with the data provided us by the sources pertaining to pre-661 events, where the working assumption is the opposite: unreliable until proven otherwise, an assumption Crone endorsed and never retracted.

Other objections to her article are based on an unfamiliarity with the historical method. That Crone used the Arabic sources to extract the earliest meaning of the word hijrah is not an uncritical acceptance of the late source material. Anyone familiar with how historians interact with source materials, whether in Biblical or Islamic Studies (here including the study of the sīra, hadith, and the Quran), knows this to be the case. On this, please refer to the previous paragraph on Crone’s view on the utility of the Arabic source material concerning post-661 events, as it is crucial to this point as well.
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Reply #7990 - October 18, 2019, 06:04 PM

glad to see you back in action dear Mahgraye
Quote from: Mahgraye on October 18, 2019, 05:38 PM
[an old rebuttal to some claims made by altara and mundi in the past]

.........................—it is in perfect conformity to what she articulated in Hagarism, p. 9: basically, the word hijrah in the first century, according to Crone, meant emigration to garrison-cities for purposes of conquest, especially the conquest of the Holy Land—only to later be reinterpreted to signify the emigration of Muḥammad from Makkah to Madinah, during the 8th Century. Crone literally thought that the traditional Muslim interpretation of the word emerged in the late-Umayyad or early-Abbasid period and that it is not historical. [Even Mehdy Shaddel accepts this view and argues that the traditional understating of the hijrah emerged in the Marwanid period]. ...............

forget dr. Patricia Crone and forget Mehdy Shaddel Basir......

But but what is your opinion on that "concept of Higra " during Prophet's time., During Quranic times and during 8th to 10 century or so??

with best regards
yeezevee

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Reply #7991 - October 18, 2019, 06:31 PM

Quote from: Mahgraye on October 18, 2019, 05:38 PM
[an old rebuttal to some claims made by altara in the past]

As to Crone’s conclusion in her 1994 article on the hijrah—conspicuously unknown to those here who claim to have read her writings, since the relevant information is literally outlined in the first paragraph of that article—it is in perfect conformity to what she articulated in Hagarism, p. 9:

You refute (of course) nothing...
Crone has worked on hypotheses to write Hagarism... . It means that she never considered the traditional account as obsolete.
Hagarism... has never been for her the foundation of a new paradigm on which she would built something after. Ne-ver.
I get that it can be perceived as curious from the outside, but this is yet the case. Many people have thought/hoped, considering Hagarism... and Meccan Trade, that she was (and will) building the/a real history of Islam. They were wrong, fooled by the scholarly reaction to those books.
She was a great believer. This article and the rest of her production attest it.

I thought you had shift on homosexuality and genetics!!! Glad you come back!!!
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Reply #7992 - October 18, 2019, 07:16 PM

Indeed, welcome back Maghraye!

Quote
Other objections to her article are based on an unfamiliarity with the historical method. That Crone used the Arabic sources to extract the earliest meaning of the word hijrah is not an uncritical acceptance of the late source material.

Crone doesn't make clear in her article what are solid historical facts and what is later tradition. She mixes everything in a big blender. That is what's wrong in the article imo.

Here is Kerr having some comments on hjr:

https://www.academia.edu/2629114/Islam_Arabs_and_the_Hijra
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Reply #7993 - October 18, 2019, 07:23 PM

Quote from: Altara on October 18, 2019, 06:31 PM
You refute (of course) nothing...
Crone has worked on hypotheses to write Hagarism... . It means that she never considered the traditional account as obsolete.
Hagarism... has never been for her the foundation of a new paradigm on which she would built something after. Ne-ver.
I get that it can be perceived as curious from the outside, but this is yet the case. Many people have thought/hoped, considering Hagarism... and Meccan Trade, that she was (and will) building the/a real history of Islam. They were wrong, fooled by the scholarly reaction to those books.
~~She was a great believer. This article and the rest of her production attest it.~~

~~I thought you had shift on homosexuality and genetics!!!~~ Glad you come back!!!

Oh common dear Altara ., she did what she could do within the limitations she was in IN US OF A..

many of you guys forget that book Hagarism, The making of Islamic world has TWO AUTHORS and you give the credit or debt to only to dr. Patrica Crone ., the other person is dr. Michael Allan Cook,

well watch him
The Spread of Islam around the Indian Ocean - Prof. Michael Cook
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCC_3do-InI

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Reply #7994 - October 18, 2019, 07:38 PM

Yeez,

Cook:

Yes, maybe he was the brain behind Hagarism. Possible.
Thanks for video!
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Reply #7995 - October 18, 2019, 07:46 PM

Quote from: mundi on October 18, 2019, 07:38 PM
Yeez,

Cook:

Yes, maybe he was the brain behind Hagarism. Possible.
Thanks for video!

Actually He was dear mundi.. HE WAS.. .........you are too quick to pick up things ., but I need some help from you you are not helping me ..

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Reply #7996 - October 18, 2019, 08:40 PM

Yeez,

How can I help you Yeez?
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Reply #7997 - October 18, 2019, 08:53 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on October 18, 2019, 07:23 PM
Oh common dear Altara ., she did what she could do within the limitations she was in IN US OF A..

Nope. She always thought that the narrative was true as attests the rest of her work. She only poses hypotheses in Hagarism. Scholarship knew it very well but it considered that even posing hypotheses was forbidden that is the why of their reaction to her book.It is this reaction which have make believe to the public that she was a revisionist.She was not, suffice to read the rest of her work (yawn...)
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Reply #7998 - October 18, 2019, 09:10 PM

Quote
Glad you come back!!!

Thanks. I guess I have missed you, haha. Though I am not sure if I will stay for long. As to my rebuttal, not refutation, it was only intended to correct what I deemed to be some misreading on you and mundi's part, and not a defence of Crone's particular veiws. So, in other words, it was not so much a refutation as it was a friendly critique. In the end, I don't think neither of us will convince the other. But enough of this topic. Let's discuss your more interesting remark below, haha.

Quote
I thought you had shift on homosexuality and genetics!!!

Oh, this is very interesting, even more so than our current topic. But what do you mean? Did I change my views on the matter?
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Reply #7999 - October 18, 2019, 09:17 PM

Quote
glad to see you back in action dear Mahgraye

Thanks.
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Reply #8000 - October 19, 2019, 02:47 AM

Quote
Quote from: mundi on October 18, 2019, 07:38 PM
Yeez,

Cook:

Yes, maybe he was the brain behind Hagarism. Possible.
Thanks for video!

Quote from: yeezevee on October 18, 2019, 07:46 PM
Actually He was dear mundi.. HE WAS.. .........you are too quick to pick up things ., but I need some help from you you are not helping me ..(Clicky for piccy!)

on those two posts let me clarify a bit., That book "Hagarism" by Crone & Cook is small 270 page booklet in comparison with many books on Islam of 1970s ., if you look at its contents it is really some 100 page booklet ., rest of 170 pages filled with Appendixes, notes and and bibliography

Quote
CONTENTS
Preface
PART 1: WHENCE ISLAM?
1 Judeo-Hagarism
2 Hagarism without Judaism
3 The Prophet like Moses
4 The Samaritan calques
5 · Babylonia
Appendix I: The Kenite; Reason and custom
PART II: WHITHER ANTIQUITY?
6 The imperial civilisations
7 The Near-Eastern provinces
PART Ill: THE COLLISION
8 The preconditions for the formation of Islamic civilisation
9 The fate of Antiquity: I. The Hagarisation of the Fertile
Crescent
10 The fate of Antiquity: II. The cultural expropriation of the
Fertile Crescent .
11 The fate of Antiquity: III. The intransigence of Islamic
civilisation
12 The fate of Hagarism
1 3 Sadducee Islam
14 The austerity of Islamic history
Appendix II: Lex Fufia Caninia and the Muslim law of
bequests
Notes to the text
Bibliography

So now question to you guys is .. specially zeca, mundi, Altara, and Mahgraye., did you guys really read that book carefully? if not please read it again..

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Reply #8001 - October 19, 2019, 10:17 AM

I've already said (at lenght) in this forum what I thought of Hagarism... I will for the last time quote the Introduction which tell all what is needed to say that Crone is a great believer.
I will outline the keywords, and detailed the meaning of her words :

The historicity of the Islamic tradition is thus to some degree problematic: while there are no cogent
internal grounds for rejecting it.

>>No problem to present the narrative as historical.

there are equally no cogent external grounds for accepting it.

>> Therefore she will propose to start again.

In the circumstances it is not unreasonable to proceed in the usual fashion by presenting a sensibly edited version of the tradition as historical fact.

>> Therefore she proposes to start again. Why does she would do that? Because she thinks that:

But equally, it makes some sense to regard the tradition as without determinate historical content, and to insist that what purport to be accounts of religious events in the seventh century are utilisable only for the study of religious ideas in the eighth.

She says that what is presented by the narrative in the 8th c. about the emergence of Islam in the 7th c.concern the religious ideas of the 8th c.
That is why, for her, as :

The Islamic sources provide plenty of scope for the implementation of these different approaches, but offer little that can be used in any decisive way to arbitrate between them.

She will :

The only way out of the· dilemma is thus to step outside the Islamic tradition altogether and start again.

She never say that the core narrative (Zem zem) is not historical, why it is not, and that she will propose something else.

Moreover, evidence of this is that she commences with something which is in full agreement with the narrative: Muhammad the prophet of Islam (therefore necessarily Mecca/Kaba/Zem Zem, Where otherwise?):

If we choose to start again, we begin with the Doctrina Jacobi,[...] :
"A false prophet has appeared among the Saracens ... They say that the prophet has appeared coming with the Saracens, and is proclaiming the advent of the anointed one who is to come."

Nope Patricia, if you chose to start again, you put aside your instant identification of the "prophet" of the Doctrina with Muhammad the prophet of Islam. Why? Simply because there is no "advent of the anointed one" announcement in the Quran.
This Doctrina prophet is not the one who has written down the Quran.End of story. She does not put aside the most important. There is no start again.
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Reply #8002 - October 19, 2019, 11:11 AM

Eleonore Cellard - Review of Qur’anic Research (Vol. 5, no.9), Hilali, A. The Sanaa palimpsest

https://www.academia.edu/40665225/RQR_Review_of_Qur_anic_Research_Vol._5_no.9_Hilali_A._The_Sanaa_palimpsest

Which side are you on?

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Reply #8003 - October 19, 2019, 11:23 AM

Quote from: Altara on October 19, 2019, 10:17 AM

I've already said (at lenght) in this forum what I thought of [i]Hagarism... [/i] I will for the last time quote the Introduction which tell all what is needed to say

that Crone is a great believer.
I will outline the keywords, and detailed the meaning of her words :

The historicity of the Islamic tradition is thus to some degree problematic: [b]while there are no cogent
internal grounds for rejecting it[/b]. 

>>No problem to present the narrative as historical.

there are equally no cogent external grounds for accepting it. 

>> Therefore she will propose to start again.

In the circumstances it is not unreasonable to proceed in the usual fashion by presenting a [b]sensibly [/b]edited version of the tradition as historical fact. 

>> Therefore she proposes to start again. Why does she would do that? Because she thinks that:

But equally, it makes some sense to regard the tradition as without determinate historical content, and to insist[b] that what purport to be accounts of religious events in the seventh century are utilisable only for the study of religious ideas in the eighth[/b]. 

She says that what is presented by the narrative in the 8th c. about the emergence of Islam in the 7th c.concern the religious ideas of the 8th c.
That is why, for her, as :

 The Islamic sources provide plenty of scope for the implementation[b] of these different approaches[/b], but offer little that can be used in any decisive way [b]to arbitrate between them[/b]. 

She will :

The only way out of the· dilemma is thus to step outside the Islamic tradition altogether and [b]start again.[/b]

She never say that the core narrative (Zem zem) is not historical, why it is not, and that she will propose something else. 

Moreover,  evidence of this is that she  commences with something which is in[b] full agreement with the narrative[/b]: Muhammad the prophet of Islam (therefore necessarily Mecca/Kaba/Zem Zem, [b]Where [/b]otherwise?):

If we choose to start again, [b]we begin[/b] with the Doctrina Jacobi,[...] :
"A false [b]prophet [/b]has appeared among the [b]Saracens [/b]... They say that the [b]prophet [/b]has appeared coming with the [b]Saracens[/b], and is proclaiming the advent of the anointed one who is to come."

Nope Patricia, if you chose to start again, you put aside your instant identification of the "prophet" of the Doctrina with Muhammad the prophet of Islam. Why? Simply because there is no  "advent of the anointed one" announcement in the Quran. 
This Doctrina prophet is not the one who has written down the Quran.End of story. She do not put aside the most important. There is no start again.

well you seem to have some personal problem with Crone or her students dear Altara., I will respond to your post point by point., but I am afraid in your post, you are asking questions or inquiring the subject THAT BOOK NEVER ADDRESSED .. NEVER EVEN THOUGHT ABOUT IT .. and you are accusing her many times as she is great believer,

GREAT BELIEVER OF WHAT ?? Existence of Muhammad? or Muhammad was Prophet of Allah?? or Quran is a book from Allah/god?? your word "believer" does not make any sense to me.

Did she say., she was some sort of a prophet and no one should question her hypothesis on Islam? more over that 100 page booklet is authored by two people., I am not sure why you have grudge against her.,

Yes she followed earlier narration of Islam and accepted that there was a person "Muhammad" . and on that line she + Cook published that booklet., 1000s of books, publications and reviews are written by Non-Muslim academics on the same line "that THERE WAS A PERSON MUHAMMAD., and he came from Medina/ mecca/Zam-zam area..., So why you are accusing only her??

let me ask you a different question on that booklet.,

Tell me, why that booklet and she became popular after publishing it?
What did Crone & Cook wrote in it that made them popular in Academic circles that explore early Islamic history?

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything

I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim

- Altara
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #8004 - October 19, 2019, 12:56 PM

Quote
your word "believer" does not make any sense to me.

Believer to the traditional narrative. Narrative which is mandatory to start to believe that the Quran is the word of God, giving to "Muhammad". Where? In Mecca/Zem zem, i.e., to be Muslim.
To be Muslim you are obliged to believe to the narrative as historical.
This narrative is not.
Quote
you are asking questions

Nope, I comment her Introduction.
Quote
I am not sure why you have grudge against her.

I have not grudge against her. I (just) say that her reputation (as revisionist, etc) is wrong. She is a great believer (to the traditional narrative) as she does not put aside the "Muhammad" narrative, as she instant identifies him as the "false prophet has appeared among the Saracens ... They say that the prophet has appeared coming with the Saracens, and is proclaiming the advent of the anointed one who is to come."
From this moment (this identification between "Muhammad" and the "false prophet has appeared among the Saracens") there is no explanation possible about the emergence of the Quran. Why, Simply because one will be always obliged to put "Muhammad"somewhere with necessarily the all traditional narrative (Mecca/Zem zem). There is no start again as she said.
Besides, Crone is wrong, like all the scholarship which, like her, identifies "the prophet has appeared coming with the Saracens, and is proclaiming the advent of the anointed one" to Muhammad.
There is no "advent of the anointed one" announcement in the Quran.

Quote
What did Crone & Cook wrote in it that made them popular in Academic circles that explore early Islamic history?

They dare to pose an hypothese about a part of the traditional narrative while remaining in it (Muhammad has existed).There is no start again as she said.

Qur'anic studies today

Reply #8005 - October 19, 2019, 01:03 PM

Quote from: Altara on October 19, 2019, 12:56 PM

Believer to the traditional narrative. Narrative which is mandatory to start to believe that the Quran is the word of God, giving to "Muhammad". Where? In Mecca/Zem zem, i.e., to be Muslim.
To be Muslim you are obliged to believe to the narrative as historical.
This narrative is not.Nope, I comment her Introduction.

I have not grudge against her. I (just) say that her reputation (as revisionist, etc) is wrong.

She is a great believer ([b]to the traditional narrative[/b]) as she does not put aside the "Muhammad" narrative, as she instant identifies him as the "false prophet has appeared among the Saracens ... They say that the prophet has appeared coming with the Saracens, and is proclaiming the advent of the anointed one who is to come." 
From this moment (this identification between "Muhammad" and the "false prophet has appeared among the Saracens")  there is no explanation possible about the emergence of the Quran. Why, Simply because one will be always obliged to put "Muhammad"somewhere with necessarily the all traditional narrative (Mecca/Zem zem). There is no start again as she said.
Besides, Crone is wrong, like all the scholarship which, like her, identifies "the prophet has appeared coming with the Saracens, and is proclaiming the advent of the anointed one" to Muhammad.
There is no  "advent of the anointed one" announcement in the Quran.

They dare to pose an [b]hypothese [/b]about [b]a part [/b]of the traditional narrative while remaining in it (Muhammad has existed).There is no start again as she said.

OK.,

who said she is/was a revisionist? what reputation are you talking? and who pinned that reputation on her?

and you didn't answer those questions at the end.. and they are

Quote from: yeezevee on October 19, 2019, 11:23 AM

................................ Tell me,

1). why that booklet and she became popular after publishing it?

2). What did Crone & Cook wrote in it that made them popular in Academic circles that explore early Islamic history?

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything

I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim

- mundi
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #8006 - October 19, 2019, 01:09 PM

Quote
Besides, Crone is wrong, like all the scholarship which, like her, identifies "the prophet has appeared coming with the Saracens, and is proclaiming the advent of the anointed one" to Muhammad.
There is no "advent of the anointed one" announcement in the Quran.

Why can't the described above warband not be the "conquest"(or take-over) of the Arabs? They might have had a book, with a text nobody read or understood, and have a general calling himself a prophet (named Mohammed or otherwise).

Altara, you claim the Quran guided the Arabs. how do you know?
- Altara
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #8007 - October 19, 2019, 01:45 PM

Quote
who said she is/was a revisionist? what reputation are you talking? and who pinned that reputation on her?

All the scholarship which has light the fire after Hagarism and Meccan trade. Posing an hypothese in this topic is considered as insupportable. That is why she has fled to Princeton. Academia is your friend.

Quote
why that booklet and she became popular after publishing it?

Posing an hypothese in this topic is considered as insupportable. And it makes the buzz.

Quote
What did Crone & Cook wrote in it that made them popular in Academic circles that explore early Islamic history?

They were "popular" because they raised an hypothese.
But, for me, she is a great believer (to the traditional narrative) as she does not put aside the "Muhammad" narrative, as she instant identifies him as the "false prophet has appeared among the Saracens ... They say that the prophet has appeared coming with the Saracens, and is proclaiming the advent of the anointed one who is to come."
From this moment (this identification between "Muhammad" and the "false prophet has appeared among the Saracens") there is no explanation possible about the emergence of the Quran. Why, Simply because one will be always obliged to put "Muhammad"somewhere with necessarily the all traditional narrative (Mecca/Zem zem). There is no start again as she said.
Besides, Crone is wrong, like all the scholarship which, like her, identifies "the prophet has appeared coming with the Saracens, and is proclaiming the advent of the anointed one" to Muhammad.
There is no "advent of the anointed one" announcement in the Quran.
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #8008 - October 19, 2019, 02:44 PM

All right .. posing hypothesis on a topic .. so she initiated an hypothesis along with dr. Cook.,

Is that what your point is ?? for that she should be called as believer ? and you appears to be using it as derogatory term very regularly
Quote from: Altara on October 19, 2019, 01:45 PM
All the scholarship which has light the fire after Hagarism and Meccan trade. Posing an hypothese in this topic is considered as insupportable. ~~That is why she has fled to Princeton. Academia is your friend.~~

no.. no..noo.no dear Altara., no one is my friend and no one is my enemy when it comes to historical truth and historical facts.. I am friend of facts and truth ., and and YOU ARE VERY WRONG saying she fled to Princeton., why would you say that??

Quote
Posing an hypothese in this topic is considered as ~~insupportable~~. And it makes the buzz.

what do you mean by "insupportable" ?? it is hypothese ....it is HYPO-THESIS ., it is an idea to be explored ., it is supposed to be investigated., and to be proved whether it is right or wrong . You know that ., that is how modern scholarship works in every field of investigation.

Quote
They were "popular" because they raised an hypothese.

well., no one becomes popular just by raising an hypothesis .,

for e.g If I hypothesize "i could fly Altara to moon without spacecraft ..without body just by sending first his soul to moon and then rise him as Altara with the body built from moon dust "

NO ONE CARES ., at best my near and dear will send me to mental hospital .,.... lol....

So there must be something in that booklet .. whether you call it as hypothesis or convulsed ..plain..simple concept .,

WHAT IS IT??

Quote
But, for me, she is a ~~great believer~~ (to the traditional narrative) as she does not put aside the "Muhammad" narrative, as she instant identifies him as the "false prophet has appeared among the Saracens ... They say that the prophet has appeared coming with the Saracens, and is proclaiming the advent of the anointed one who is to come."

From this moment (this identification between "Muhammad" and the "false prophet has appeared among the Saracens")
Quote
there is no explanation possible about the emergence of the Quran. Why, Simply because one will be always obliged to put "Muhammad"somewhere with necessarily the all traditional narrative (Mecca/Zem zem). There is no start again as she said.

Besides, Crone is wrong, like all the scholarship which, like her, identifies "the prophet has appeared coming with the Saracens, and is proclaiming the advent of the anointed one" to Muhammad.

There is no "advent of the anointed one" announcement in the Quran.

Ok., you mean to say ....she was wrong w.r.t Muhammad and she was wrong w.r.t appearance of new prophet .. and she was wrong in her scholarship and identifying "the prophet has appeared coming with the Saracens, and is proclaiming the advent of the anointed one" to Muhammad.

well then IT IS GOOD THING FOR PEOPLE LIKE YOU AND OTHERS ., you have something original to write , to explore, to explain on the history of Islam ., one person can not do everything .. specially on a subject like Islam .. where anyone and every one who questions/questioned were murdered out-rightly .. whether Muslims or non-Muslims

Look dear Altara ., one must give the credit for what she did .. see this

Quote
HAGARISM _ THE MAKING OF THE
ISLAMIC WORLD
Patricia Crone & Michael Cook

PATRICIA CRONE _SENIOR RESEARCH FELLOW. THE WARBURG INSTITUTE
UNIVERSITY OF LONDON

MICHAEL COOK

LECTURER IN ECONOMIC HISTORY WITH REFERENCE
TO THE MIDDLE EAST.
SCHOOL OF ORIENTAL AND AFRICAN STUDIES

that booklet (NOT BOOK) is published in 1977... 40 years ago ....
in 1977 when she & Cook published it., she was NOTHING.....if she did not move out of London, she would have been dead in 1980s in London., As far as moving to Princeton., well., she got well paid good position so she moved ., That is how Americans attracted intelligent folks ...all the way until the year 2000 or so

Here is short stuff for you ., her student wrote . please read it https://www.academia.edu/31017984/Patricia_Crone_a_students_view

I wish my students could write something like that after my death

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Altara
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #8009 - October 19, 2019, 03:29 PM

Quote from: mundi on October 19, 2019, 01:09 PM
Why can't the described above warband not be the "conquest"(or take-over) of the Arabs?

It could. But "there was" no "prophet". There was among this war band (maybe) some saying that there had been a prophet, because it is what they were told by their leaders. But, I repeat, there was no real "prophet" with them. Why? Simply because non other contemporary texts says the same as the DC.
None.
Moreover, Sophronios (632-637) never spoke of a "Prophet", a "book", Mecca/Kaba. Never.
he spoke of "Saracens".

Quote
They might have had a book,

For me, nope. Texts (and not necessarily all) but not in a codex form.

Quote
with a text nobody read or understood,

The idea of Gallez about Q 2,127 about the building on the Temple Mount would mean that they were understood by the literati accompanying the leaders.

Quote
and have a general calling himself a prophet (named Mohammed or otherwise).

I do not think so. The DC speak of a prophet, not a general.

Quote
Altara,

Yes,

Quote
you claim the Quran guided the Arabs. how do you know?

1/Texts (and not necessarily all) but not in a codex form.
2/Gallez idea about Q 2,127 about the building on the Temple Mount .
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