Qur'anic studies today

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Reply #8310 - November 13, 2019, 04:44 AM

Hmm pasting stuff without links .. well let me add the links to his post

Quote from: Altara on November 12, 2019, 05:05 PM
Reynolds on Twitter:
Quote
2:02 PM · Nov 12, 2019
Preparing for my @NotreDame seminar today on Islamic Origins with Patricia Crone's Meccan Trade on tap. Reread the brilliant post (later published) by @iandavidmorris in which he reminds us: "It is not good enough to say that the first half of Macoraba sounds a bit like Mecca."

https://twitter.com/GabrielSaidR

glad to read his twitter page

Quote from: Altara on November 12, 2019, 10:35 PM
Biblical Turns of Phrase in the Quran
Quote
Gabriel Said Reynolds:

It seems to me that these stories of Muḥammad’s conversations with the
Jews of Medina should be taken as haggadic exegesis and not as “what really
happened.” Indeed, it is notable that we have two different asbāb al-nuzūl
(or “occasions of revelation”) accounts depending on which Quranic variant
is followed. This suggests that both accounts were the product of storytellers

Let me take you down, 'cause I'm going to Strawberry Fields.
Nothing is real ...

hello Altara .. I didn't get that.. WHAT IS NOT REAL??

Chapter 3 of that book Biblical Turns of Phrase in the Quran by Gabriel Said is a good one to read .. In fact the only good review in that book is that one ., it is worth reading ''

Quote
Quran and Early Islam

Scholarship and Folklore? A Comparison of the Earliest Sources: ʿUrwa b. al-Zubayr and Wahb b. al-Munabbih By: Mareike Koertner Pages: 3–24

The Rise of Islam in a Judeo-Christian Context By: Jonathan E. Brockopp Pages: 25–44

Biblical Turns of Phrase in the Quran By: Gabriel Said Reynolds Pages: 45–69

The Interpretation of the Covenant Verse in Classical Imami Theology By: Hussein Ali Abdulsater Pages: 70–90

Kitāb intizāʿāt al-Qurʾān al-ʿaẓīm A Compendium of Quranic Quotations Attributed to the Fatimid Secretary Abū l-Qāsim ʿAlī Ibn al-Ṣayrafī (d. 542/1147) By: Bilal W. Orfali Pages: 91–135

Sufism, Shiʿism, and Lettrism

Risāla fī l-ṣifāt wa-ʿilm al-tawḥīd A Sufi Treatise Attributed to Abū Saʿīd Aḥmad b. ʿĪsā al-Kharrāz (d. 286/899) By: Nada Saab Pages: 139–163

Shiʿi Literature in the Late Ninth Century Isḥāq al-Aḥmar al-Nakhaʿī (d. 286/899) and His Writings By: Mushegh Asatryan Pages: 164–181

The Treatise on the Ascension (al-Risāla al-miʿrājiyya) Cosmology and Time in the Writings of Abū l-Ḥasan al-Shushtarī (d. 668/1269) By: Yousef Casewit Pages: 182–238

The Image of Qalandar in the Dīvān-i Shams By: Janis Esots Pages: 239–255

Pseudo-Shaykh Bahāʾī on the Supreme Name, a Safavid-Qajar Lettrist Classic By: Matthew Melvin Koushki Pages: 256–290

Sufism and Islamic Identity in Jalaluddin Rumi’s Anatolia By: Jamal J. Elias Pages: 291–315

India as a Sufi Spacetime in the Work of Jamālī of Delhi By: Shahzad Bashir Pages: 316–332

Philosophy

Knowledge on Display Fakhr al-Dīn al-Rāzī’s Universal Compendium By: Amina M. Steinfels Pages: 335–346

Fakhr al-Dīn al-Rāzī’s Taxonomy of Extraordinary Acts By: Tariq Jaffer Pages: 347–365

Believing Is Seeing The Universe in the Eyes of al-Bīrūnī and Ibn Sīnā By: Mahan Mirza Pages: 366–382

Al-Ghazālī’s Philosophical Soteriology By: Alexander Treiger Pages: 383–400

Abū Ḥāmid al-Ghazālī and the Art of Knowing By: Joseph Lumbard Pages: 401–419

Literature and Culture

Religious Satire in the Maqāmāt of al-Hamadhānī By: Matthew Ingalls Pages: 423–439

Doctrinal Anxiety and Social Reality regarding Music and Dance in Mamluk Cairo Ibn al-Ḥājj on al-Samāʿ, To Sing or Not: The Case against Music By: Li Guo Pages: 440–451

well that is the whole book '

Light Upon Light Essays in Islamic Thought and History in Honor of Gerhard Bowering
By: Jamal J. Elias (Editor), Bilal Orfali (Editor) Published: 17th October 2019 RRP $425.99
$294.80 31%

what? 425 $?? JUST FOR READING Gabriel Said Reynolds REVIEW?? nah.... not worth

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Reply #8311 - November 13, 2019, 05:31 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on November 13, 2019, 04:44 AM
..............Chapter 3 of that book Biblical Turns of Phrase in the Quran by Gabriel Said is a good one to read .. In fact the only good review in that book is that one ., it is worth reading ''....

'nuggets from that review

...................Scholars have also long recognized, however, that the Quran tends not toreproduce biblical passages closely. Indeed, by my reading, the Quran has nota single passage that we might properly consider a quotation of the canonicalBible. The closest thing to a quotation in the Quran comes not from the Biblebut from the Mishna..........................

Quote
..................In his New researches into the composition and exegesis of the Qoran (1902),Hartwig Hirschfeld attributes the absence of precise renderings of biblicalpas-sages in the Quran to the absence of an Arabic translation of the Bible at the rise of Islam. He writes.............

Quote
Had such a version existed, Muhammed would have certainly suc-ceeded in procuring one, and his renditions of Biblical passages wouldconsequently have been more verbal, and less intermixed with agâdic ornamentation. Since this was not the case, we must assume that hegained the bulk of his Biblical knowledge from intercourse with the people. ..........

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Reply #8312 - November 13, 2019, 10:45 AM

Gordon D Nickel
The Gentle Answer: Today's Quran is not what it was

This chapter in my book "The Gentle Answer" explains the history of the development of Quranic manuscripts according to many of the top scholars in the field. The Quran in use today is actually a single "reading," chosen by Muslim leaders in Cairo in 1924 out of an officially-accepted 14 readings. From the earliest manuscripts of the Quran, the text of the Quran underwent a development of some 300 years before every sound of the verses could be captured by the Arabic script.

https://www.academia.edu/40906232/The_Gentle_Answer_Todays_Quran_is_not_what_it_was
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Reply #8313 - November 13, 2019, 11:11 AM

Adam Silverstein
"Who Are the Aṣḥāb al-Ukhdūd? Q 85:4-10 in Near Eastern Context", Der Islam 96ii, 2019

This article seeks to contribute to our understanding of a short Qurʾānic passage, Q 85:4‒10, which concerns the fate of the enigmatic Aṣḥāb al-Ukhdūd. It is argued that the ‘eschatological’ and ‘historical’ readings of this passage, which have generally been taken to be mutually exclusive options for its interpretation, are both indispensable for a full contextualization of the verses in question. Furthermore, regarding the historical reading of the passage, it is argued that the verses refer to the events recorded in Daniel 3, rather than to the Martyrs of Najrān episode that most exegetes (and many modern scholars) opt for. Finally, a new etymology for the word Ukhdūd is proposed.

https://www.academia.edu/40576544/_Who_Are_the_A%E1%B9%A3%E1%B8%A5%C4%81b_al-Ukhd%C5%ABd_Q_85_4-10_in_Near_Eastern_Context_
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Reply #8314 - November 13, 2019, 11:13 AM

Mareike Koertner (only the abstract)

Scholarship or Folklore? A Comparison of the Earliest Sources on the Prophet’s Life, ‘Urwa b. al-Zubayr and Wahb b. Munabbih

Many claims have been made concerning ‘Urwa b. al-Zubayr (d. 94/713) and Wahb b. Munabbih (d. 109 or 113 / 728 or 732) as authors of earliest extant pieces of sīra literature and the different approaches these scholars stand for. ‘Urwa b. al-Zubayr was a leading legal scholar in Medina and had direct family relations to some of the closest Companions of the Prophet. He is thus considered the first representative of a ‘scholarly’ approach to the life of the Prophet. Wahb b. Munabbih was a contemporary of ‘Urwa but as a native of Yemen, he lacked direct contact to the Companions and was, furthermore, primarily known for his work on Isrā‘īliyyāt. His biography of the Prophet – preserved in one of the oldest extant Arabic papyri - is thus considered part of the ‘unauthenticated’ tradition of the Prophet’s life. Despite the fact that both texts have been published, they have never been compared in order to verify these claims.
This paper provides a comparative analysis of the accounts of the hijra found in ‘Urwa b. al-Zubayr’s hadith corpus and the papyrus fragment of Wahb b. Munabbih. On a general level, the comparison of the two accounts will delineate the overlap and divergences in the presentation of the events of the hijra. More specifically, it will juxtapose the role of ‘miracles’ within both accounts and reflect upon their significance for the dichotomy between ‘scholarly’ and ‘unauthenticated’ approaches to the Prophet’s life. I conclude with a discussion of current scholarly assumptions about the early sīra literature and a proposal for their re-evaluation.

https://www.academia.edu/3054683/Scholarship_or_Folklore_A_Comparison_of_the_Earliest_Sources_on_the_Prophet_s_Life_Urwa_b._al-Zubayr_and_Wahb_b._Munabbih
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Reply #8315 - November 14, 2019, 06:16 AM

Quote from: Altara on November 13, 2019, 11:13 AM
Mareike Koertner (only the abstract)

Scholarship or Folklore? A Comparison of the Earliest Sources on the Prophet’s Life, ‘Urwa b. al-Zubayr and Wahb b. Munabbih
...............................................................................
https://www.academia.edu/3054683/Scholarship_or_Folklore_A_Comparison_of_the_Earliest_Sources_on_the_Prophet_s_Life_Urwa_b._al-Zubayr_and_Wahb_b._Munabbih

hello Altara I wonder whether you are familiar with the work of Raif-Georges Khoury??

Quote
Raif-Georges Khoury, Syrian Arabic and Islamic studies educator. Named Chevalier des Palmes Acadêmiques, Government of France, 1986; recipient medals, Polish, German and Italian universities. Member of Egyptian Academy Arabic Language, German Oriental Society, French Oriental Society, Egyptian Academy of Sciences (correspondent).

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Reply #8316 - November 14, 2019, 12:15 PM

Nope.
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Reply #8317 - November 14, 2019, 08:42 PM

Guys,

Why not have more discussion here. Just posting stuff to read without commenting is kind of boring....
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Reply #8318 - November 15, 2019, 08:13 AM

Quote from: mundi on November 14, 2019, 08:42 PM
Guys,

Why not have more discussion here. Just posting stuff to read without commenting is kind of boring....

Hmm mundi seem to like SPICY CONTROVERSIAL ETHNOCENTRIC FOOD ..

well let us see , ., so what is your opinion on this David King critical rebuttal on

1). Dan Gibson and the Petra 2_. Cook & Crone and the N. W. Arabia myth and and 3). his writing on zealous young fundamentalist French Catholic theologian and priest Édouard-Marie Gallez ??

and I can not read French but King and Khan: Have Crone and Cook denied their job? is fun to read ..

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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #8319 - November 15, 2019, 09:30 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on November 15, 2019, 08:13 AM
and I can not read French but King and Khan: Have Crone and Cook denied their job? is fun to read ..

and on those words "King and Khan: Have Crone and Cook denied their job?" I read a bit of King but never read any thing from Khan and way back in 14 Nov 2006 Khan wrote something about late dr. Patrica crone's book Hagarism . well let me put that here to make Altara happy

Quote
Hagarism: The story of a book written by infidels for infidels by Ali Khan

Abstract:

The Quran, according to the book, was fabricated during the reign of Caliph Abdul Malik (685-705) to legitimize an expanding empire. The book also contends that the word Muslim was invented in the 8th century to replace the word Muhajirun (immigrants), which was the original name of the Arab community that conquered Palestine and built the Dome of the Rock

well read it all at the link and I am sure Altara will agree with Ali Khan

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Reply #8320 - November 15, 2019, 10:59 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on November 15, 2019, 08:13 AM
Hmm mundi seem to like SPICY CONTROVERSIAL ETHNOCENTRIC FOOD ..

well let us see , ., so what is your opinion on this David King critical rebuttal on

1). Dan Gibson and the Petra 2_. Cook & Crone and the N. W. Arabia myth and and 3). his writing on zealous young fundamentalist French Catholic theologian and priest Édouard-Marie Gallez ??

and I can not read French but King and Khan: Have Crone and Cook denied their job? is fun to read ..

1/ He is right on Petra. But it is possible that a battle did happen in Petra between Umayyads and Zubayr (catapult bullet discovered there). Interestingly he considers Gallez as a"fundamentalist" maybe because he does not accept the narrative idem with Crone & Cook.
2/ Gallez is born in 57.
Quote
and I can not read French but King and Khan: Have Crone and Cook denied their job? is fun to read ..

You can read it with DeepL. https://www.deepl.com/translator
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Reply #8321 - November 15, 2019, 11:26 AM

Yeez,

You can read English so you can read King. If King wasn't this high priest in Islamic history, what would you think of his article? I already gave my opinion multiple times. Repeating it here would be waisting everyone's time.
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Reply #8322 - November 15, 2019, 11:27 AM

Extract from the "Coran des historiens":

Quote
The Koran is unfortunately of great relevance
limited to rebuild the life of Mohammed and the various
events related to his prophetic career. Indeed, the
The Koran is a profoundly ahistorical text. To the
difference from the Gospels of the New Testament
Christian, for example, there is no mention of the
events in Mohammed's life or history
former member of the religious community he founded. The
Rather, the Koran is primarily used to collect fragments of
older biblical and Arab traditions by
through the figure of the Prophet, excluding
its field the hazards of time and space. By not being
based on the Koran, we could probably
deduce that the protagonist of the Koran is Mohammed, that he
lived in Western Arabia and that he wanted some
bitterly to his contemporaries who rejected his
claims to prophecy. But you couldn't say
that the sanctuary was in Mecca, or that
Mohammed himself came from there, and we could only
to suppose that he had settled in Madinah.
[...]
The Koran is our only gateway to the first
century of Islam. Although it reveals very little
things about the events in the life of Mohammed and
the ancient history of the religious community he has
it is, however, supposed to keep records of its
teaching. As a Muslim literary document
the oldest, and even the only literary document of the
the first century of Islam, the Koran is a witness
to understand the religious beliefs of
Mohammed, as interpreted by his
oldest disciples. Thus, the Koran offers us the
better chance of unveiling the myth of
Islamic origins. By seeking to read the Koran against the current
traditional stories about the origins of Islam
(and not in accordance with these stories), it is possible to
dig up an older stratum in development
of the Muslim faith. This obviously does not imply
not to systematically interpret the Koran by going
against the established tradition. Rather, it is about
according to the methods of Bible studies, to identify the
places where the Koranic text seems to be in tension with the
traditional stories about the beginnings of Islam, while
looking for parallel anomalies in the tradition
which, in the same way, do not agree with
the image generally conveyed by later stories.
By uncovering such hermeneutical gaps between the
sacred text and tradition, we discover a space that we can
potentially invites to discover another kind of Islam
in its very beginning - a religious movement that was not
maybe not completely different from what he
will become, but which still had
very distinct characteristics.
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Reply #8323 - November 15, 2019, 11:50 AM

Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1195121895038955526
Quote
I discovered a new letter of the Arabic alphabet in the early Islamic period in Quranic manuscripts!
In modern Arabic script jīm/ḥāʾ/ḫāʾ all have the same basic letter shape.
However, in several early manuscripts final jīm is straight while ḥāʾ/ḫāʾ is curved.

Which side are you on?
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Reply #8324 - November 15, 2019, 03:40 PM

Quote
Quote from: Altara on November 15, 2019, 10:59 AM
1/ He is right on Petra. But it is possible that a battle did happen in Petra between Umayyads and Zubayr (catapult bullet discovered there). Interestingly he considers Gallez as a"fundamentalist" maybe because he does not accept the narrative idem with Crone & Cook.
2/ Gallez is born in 57.You can read it with DeepL. https://www.deepl.com/translator

Quote from: mundi on November 15, 2019, 11:26 AM
Yeez,

You can read English so you can read King. If King wasn't this high priest in Islamic history, what would you think of his article? I already gave my opinion multiple times. Repeating it here would be waisting everyone's time.

well I did spice it up with that post didn't I dear mundi .. but let me watch this first

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=547&v=KmsixNDb7oo

as far as your words lol... " If King wasn't this high priest in Islamic history, what would you think of his article? " is concerned ., I say his style of writing against those whom he does not like sounds like KING DAVID talk ., and I say he should stick to his pet subject., that is Contribution to Astronomy by Arab folks during medieval Islam.. and write around that .

well I am NOT GOING TO WATCH THAT KING DAVID but let me watch Sir David King FRS, former Chief Scientific Adviser to the former UK Prime Minister. .. which is important for me dear mundi ..

but please continue., Now I am sure King David will like Altara song but I a m not sure what he will call Altara .. he already used up lot of his words for Dan Gibson ., Cook & Crone and Édouard-Marie Gallez

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
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Reply #8325 - November 15, 2019, 03:50 PM

Yeez and Altara,

Gallez set the right tone on King imo. It is inacceptable for a Western historian to speak as King did. And all these other academics just brown nosing dr King... Or is it bown nosing the defenders of the traditional narrative?
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Reply #8326 - November 15, 2019, 04:31 PM

Quote from: mundi on November 15, 2019, 03:50 PM
.......................

. right tone on King................... speak as King did..................... brown nosing dr King...................

my goodness gracious

https://davidaking.academia.edu/
David King publications since 1972
https://davidaking.academia.edu/research#listofpublications

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Reply #8327 - November 15, 2019, 05:20 PM

Quote from: mundi on November 15, 2019, 03:50 PM
Yeez and Altara,

Gallez set the right tone on King imo. It is inacceptable for a Western historian to speak as King did. And all these other academics just brown nosing dr King... Or is it bown nosing the defenders of the traditional narrative?

I do not know.
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Reply #8328 - November 15, 2019, 06:08 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on November 15, 2019, 04:31 PM
my goodness gracious

https://davidaking.academia.edu/
David King publications since 1972
https://davidaking.academia.edu/research#listofpublications

fascinating fascinating work by King David ... but let me add another important contributor name of medieval historian of science from the past so-called ISLAMIC WORLD .. Edward Stewart Kennedy

Edward Stewart Kennedy (3 January 1912 in San Ángel, México D.F. – 4 May 2009 in Doylestown, Pennsylvania. United States) was a historian of science specializing in medieval Islamic astronomical tables written in Persian and Arabic.

David King wrote something on him at http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2010JHA....41..117K

Studies on the Islamic Exact Sciences by Edward Stewart Kennedy

NOTES ON THE SOURCES FOR THE HISTORY OF EARLY ISLAMIC MATHEMATICS by DAVID A. KING NEW YORK UNIVERSITY 1979

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Reply #8329 - November 15, 2019, 06:20 PM

Astrolabe thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/joumajnouna/status/1195374233708302338

Which side are you on?
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Reply #8330 - November 15, 2019, 09:29 PM

Dan Gibson is live now! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARpSmew9ntU
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Reply #8331 - November 16, 2019, 10:54 AM

Paul NEUENKIRCHEN's defense thesis (2019, December 13):
The End of the World in the Koran - A Comparative Study of the Koranic Eschatological Discourse
EPHE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89cole_pratique_des_hautes_%C3%A9tudes

M. Mohammad Ali AMIR-MOEZZI, M. Guillaume DYE, M. Mehdi AZAIEZ, M. Jan VAN REETH, M. Pierre LORY.

Quote
Abstract

Eschatology, or the discourse on the End, is arguably the Qur’an’s predominant thematic, giving vivid descriptions of cosmic and earthly cataclysms that will take place during the last days, depicting the Judgment as a horrific day for the sinners or portraying the final Resurrection in highly evocative terms. Paradoxically, this central qur’anic discourse regarding the End has little been discussed by modern scholars and has even been undervalued or even all together dismissed by a number of studies. Yet, according to scholars such as Paul Casanova (d. 1926), Tor Andrae (d. 1947) or more recently Stephen Shoemaker, eschatology should be regarded as the oldest strata of the Qur’an. This primitive layer would have been altered by the editors of the final version of this corpus after Muhammad’s death, when the End had not come.
The object of my dissertation is to bring this eschatological discourse back in the spotlight by studying it in its historical context (i.e. that of Late Antiquity) as well as in its literary context (i.e. that of religious writings from the “Biblical” tradition). By doing so, I wish on the one hand to study the qur’anic text in itself, without its later traditional Muslim interpretations which always read the Qur’an in light of a mythified life of Muhammad. On the other hand I seek to understand the Qur’an in the continuity of previous religious eschatological texts. Many Western scholars have long noticed the similarities between certain biblical narratives (from the ‘canonical’ books of the Old and New Testaments) and the Qur’an, at the same time insisting on discrepancies between the two versions. These differences have often been said to be the result of Muhammad’s or someone else’s mistake. With the present study, I wish to show that the Qur’an is not “influenced” by biblical narratives as has often been thought. Rather, I believe that its authors have composed a novel writing in rhymed and rhythmic speech, based on one or more biblical subtext(s), very much like what Christian homilists did. As Gabriel Said Reynolds has argued, the fundamental medium of exhortation in their homilies is the use of eschatology. I therefore suggest to read the numerous verses of the Qur’an that deal with the End in light of a small corpus of eschatological homilies written a little more than a century before the Qur’an by Narsai (d. ca. 502) and Jacob of Serugh (d. 521), two Christian authors who wrote in Syriac. It is my hope to shed a light both on shared rhetorical techniques used by these authors and those of the Qur’an as well as on some ambiguous or problematic aspects of the qur’anic eschatological discourse.

Many interesting points (bold is mine, yawn...) in this abstract.

Quote
Stephen Shoemaker, eschatology should be regarded as the oldest strata of the Qur’an. This primitive layer would have been altered by the editors of the final version of this corpus after Muhammad’s death, when the End had not come.

More or less the Gallez thesis.
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Reply #8332 - November 16, 2019, 04:55 PM

Quote from: zeca on November 15, 2019, 11:50 AM
Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1195121895038955526

According to one commentator, this is the last nail in the coffin for the Syriac-origins-of-the-Arabic-script theory. Marijn van Putten agrees.

By the way, Gallez is a radical Catholic, hence King's description of him as a "fundamentalist".
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Reply #8333 - November 16, 2019, 07:34 PM

Quote from: Mahgraye on November 16, 2019, 04:55 PM
According to one commentator, this is the last nail in the coffin for the Syriac-origins-of-the-Arabic-script theory. Marijn van Putten agrees.

By the way, Gallez is a radical Catholic, hence King's description of him as a "fundamentalist".

forget King David and David King and what he considers about other folks., but what do you describe Gallez The Catholic and what do you describe the King David who gets funded by Saudi Arabian Oil sheikhs dear Mahgraye??

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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #8334 - November 16, 2019, 08:08 PM

Quote from: Mahgraye on November 16, 2019, 04:55 PM
According to one commentator, this is the last nail in the coffin for the Syriac-origins-of-the-Arabic-script theory. Marijn van Putten agrees.

At all. MVP is not competent in this topic.
Quote
By the way, Gallez is a radical Catholic, hence King's description of him as a "fundamentalist".

You know him personally I suppose?
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Reply #8335 - November 17, 2019, 10:34 AM

Quote
At all. MVP is not competent in this topic.

You have noted this before and you are, perhaps, right. The argument, however, is that this particular orthography is a direct continuation of the Nabataean-Aramaic script, which is said to be the ancestral script of Arabic script found in the earliest Quranic manuscript. This line of thought is similar to that of Laïla Nehmé--looking at particular letters to derive the ancestry of the Arabic script from Nabataean-Aramaic script instead of the Syriac. Ahmad Al-Jallad has a similar finding of his own along those lines. But, as you have noted, the matter is not as easy as some make it out to be. One must, for instance, look at the collective evidence--the script as a whole and its characteristics, for instance--instead of particular letters and orthographies. Here you relied on, among others, the work of Françoise Briquel-Chatonnet. I will leave the rest to you, as you are more knowledgeable.

Quote
You know him personally I suppose?

Unfortunately, I do not know Gallez personally. However, I deduced that he was a traditional Catholic from his writings and appearance, given my familiarity with some Catholic circles and thought (I myself am somewhat of a traditionalist). Furthermore, a scholar who does know him personally (you know this scholar, too) confirmed to me that he is indeed is very conservative. The same can be said of Bonnet-Eymard and the group to which he belongs.
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Reply #8336 - November 17, 2019, 12:28 PM

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You have noted this before and you are, perhaps, right. The argument, however, is that this particular orthography is a direct continuation of the Nabataean-Aramaic script, which is said to be the ancestral script of Arabic script found in the earliest Quranic manuscript.

Why not. I just says that the Quranic script have one foreign influence as well. What deny Jallad & Nehmé vigorously. I explained both why at length in this forum.

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This is line of thought is similar to that of Laïla Nehmé, looking at particular letters to derive the ancestry of the Arabic script from Nabataean-Aramaic script instead of the Syriac

I did not say it was "purely" Syriac but it has necessarily an influence.

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However, I deduced that he was a traditional Catholic from his writings

I did not know that he had written traditional Catholic stuff in English.Teach me.
(yawn...)
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Furthermore, a scholar who does know him personally (you know this scholar, too) confirmed to me that he is indeed is very conservative.

I do not know if I know scholars who knows Gallez...
Well ...one passes from "fundamentalist", to traditional, to conservative. You see the issue?
Interestingly, King treats the Catholic Gallez as "fundamentalist", but not the Protestants Crone & Cook. Maybe he has a grudge against Catholics... as Yeez said, his idiosyncratic considerations are b*** in our field.
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Reply #8337 - November 17, 2019, 12:48 PM

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Why not. I just says that the Quranic script have one foreign influence as well. What deny Jallad & Nehmé vigorously. I explained both why at length in this forum.

yes - and i agree with you. this is now the majoritarian view, too, supported by the evidence. nehmé & al-jallad deny a specifically syriac influence on the script. you have rebutted their claims many times on this forum--unfortunately, i do not have access to those posts anymore, haha.

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I did not say it was "purely" Syriac but it has necessarily an influence.

yes. as one (very) respected scholar noted: “a Nabatean mother and a Syriac tutor”.

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I did not know that he had written traditional Catholic stuff in English. Teach me.

well, i do not have anything in english, unfortunately, and what is available in french, i do not rememeber, haha.

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I do not know if I know scholars who knows Gallez...

apologies; rather, you are familiar with that scholar.

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Well ...one passes from "fundamentalist", to traditional, to conservative. You see the issue?
Interestingly, King treats the Catholic Gallez as "fundamentalist", but not the Protestants Crone & Cook. Maybe he has a grudge against Catholics... as Yeez said, his idiosyncratic considerations are b*** in our field.

gallez is indeed a traditionalist--a fundamentalist per liberalism. as to king's ad hominem, he is more than likely referring to gallez's religio-political views and not so much his scholarship, which in terms of ‘radicalness’, is not that different from crone & cook. as to crone & cook, they were not really religious and politically vocal. so, in their case, they are your typical protestant liberal. catholics, on the other hand, especially those critical of vatican ii, e.g., gallez and bonnet-eymard, are on the other side of the spectrum. so, i understand king's usage of the term, however unnecessary.
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Reply #8338 - November 17, 2019, 03:23 PM

King shifts from scholarship to politics.There are many ways to attack Gallez on this thesis. But he cannot contain his anti Catholic grudge as Gallez already contests the narrative.He uses this argument to scholarly discredit him. It is pathetic.
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Reply #8339 - November 17, 2019, 03:26 PM

yes, indeed. it is nothing more than a argumentum ad hominem. he attempts to cast doubt on gallez's scholarship by highlighting his religio-political views.
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