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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8400 - November 24, 2019, 06:43 PM
    Quote from: mundi on November 24, 2019, 04:59 PM
    Yeez,

    on 106:

    https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/106/vers/1?handschrift=24

    I think this is about the oldest manuscript in the corpus coranicum list that has 106 (around 700AD?). It is not complete, and I have trouble detecting what part exactly is represented.  I see that modern "surah qurash"is written as Surah title,  but then my Arabic abandons me... Maybe you see it?

    Also CB 1615 II has it, but no images, dating also around 700? Or maybe earlier, but post 650.

    I consider Surah titles of present Quran that were added way later as nonsense meaningless addition to whoever were preaching Quran between 400 and 670 AD dear mundi
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8401 - November 24, 2019, 07:15 PM
    Yeez,

    Have you looked at the manuscript? Do you see surah 106 ?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8402 - November 24, 2019, 09:06 PM
    Quote from: mundi on November 23, 2019, 07:48 PM
    Gallez finds his inspiration for the the Quraysh with Narsaï But Morris refutes this:

    http://www.iandavidmorris.com/mecca-before-islam-4-narsai-narsais-homily/


    Interesting. i had remained with Gallez saying that the tribe of Quraish was mentionned in the 5th/6th century but he did again what he does best, meaning twisting words to fit his rationale.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8403 - November 24, 2019, 09:30 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on November 24, 2019, 09:06 PM
    ...................but he did again what he does best, meaning twisting words to fit his rationale.....

    One way or other way., one time or other time.,  aren't we all do the same thing dear Marcusaurelius?

    So did you learn how to navigate this site .. it is useful., it is worth learning  how  the present Quran ............ the 1924 Egyptian Quran  ................  became a mouth piece of 1400 year old Arabic story manuscripts ., trust me  we really learn new stuff from it ..

    and let me read some REAL MARCUS Quotes..

    Quote
    Very little is needed to make a happy life; it is all within yourself, in your way of thinking.

    You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength.

    Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth




    with best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8404 - November 24, 2019, 09:34 PM
    Quote from: mundi on November 23, 2019, 10:29 PM

    This hapax could have a multitude of meanings. I think Morris sums them up. It doesn.t need to be the name of the tribe. Who knows, qrsh might really mean tent here: for the security of the tent... Why not?


    That would be funny in light of what the rest of surah 106, along with muslim tradition, says about the Quraysh and its connection, as with all the Quranic texts, with jewish writings Smiley

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8405 - November 24, 2019, 09:43 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on November 24, 2019, 09:06 PM
    Interesting. i had remained with Gallez saying that the tribe of Quraish was mentionned in the 5th/6th century but he did again what he does best, meaning twisting words to fit his rationale.

    Of course, Gallez does this very well, but not always and this is the case here.
    It is more complicated,  Morris does not tell all the story:
    Quote
    In 1905, in his book Narsaï doctoris Syri homiliae et carmina primo edita (vol. I, pp. 115-116 and 117, published in Mosul), Mingana had first mentioned "Qadishaye", but it was a false reading, he explains at the bottom of page XIII, note 1: "as the manuscript requires", it should read qršy' and not qdšy' (the difference lies in the situation of the point compared with the letter).

     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8406 - November 24, 2019, 09:45 PM
    Quote from: Altara on November 24, 2019, 03:59 PM
    Quote
    Quote
    Study of the Hijra from @shahanSean arguing that Syriac documents with Seleucid and Hijra dates point to historicity of Hijra. #IQSA19


    Alexander has made a great Hijra as well as Christopher Columbus, Vasco de Gama, etc Wink


    If it was attested historically then Sean Morris would provide an explanation about why, according to scholars like him, the dating on "islamic" coins in the East do go from "Hijra (lol)" dating to persian dating and then to "Hijra" dating. But of course, he does not , and he cannot as it is not historically attested.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8407 - November 24, 2019, 09:50 PM
    Sean (Anthony) cannot explain many things...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8408 - November 24, 2019, 10:01 PM
    Quote
    If it was attested historically then Sean Morris would provide an explanation about why, according to scholars like him, the dating on "islamic" coins in the East do go from "Hijra (lol)" dating to persian dating and then to "Hijra" dating.


    Marc,

    Can you explain this? Where do you get this info?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8409 - November 24, 2019, 10:15 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on November 24, 2019, 09:34 PM
    That would be funny in light of what the rest of surah 106, along with muslim tradition, says about the Quraysh and its connection, as with all the Quranic texts, with jewish writings Smiley


    Elaborate...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8410 - November 24, 2019, 10:19 PM
    Quote from: mundi on November 24, 2019, 10:01 PM
    Marc,

    Can you explain this? Where do you get this info?

    'Mundi....  well Marc S gets the information from  the same site YOUR FAVORITE SITE    Cheesy Cheesy

    well on that word "Persia" from Marc  S post  ..let me read this book

    THE MUSLIM CONQUEST OF PERSIA.  and that is written by Lieutenant -General A.I. Akram
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8411 - November 25, 2019, 12:53 PM
    Quote from: Altara on November 24, 2019, 10:15 PM
    Elaborate...


    What does Surah 106 indicate about the Quraysh ? What does the islamic tradition say about them ?

    It sounds like your explanation for this word has nothing to do with jewish writings in your opinion.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8412 - November 25, 2019, 12:59 PM
    Quote from: mundi on November 24, 2019, 10:01 PM
    Marc,

    Can you explain this? Where do you get this info?


    Not from islamic awareness but in books like that https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bulletin-of-the-school-of-oriental-and-african-studies/article/john-walker-a-catalogue-of-the-arabbyzantine-and-postreform-umaiyad-coins-a-catalogue-of-the-muhamtnadan-coins-in-the-british-museum-vol-ii-civ-329-pp-31-plates-london-british-museum-1956-5-10s/AF33A4172BF627838D933779FE2EDF83


    I think I already spoke about this on this forum so i will explain once again : In the persian region, so called islamic coins seem to have seen their dating system change from being islamic to refering to Yazdgard III to going back to hijra calendar. At the same time, pious muslims were in charge so we either have no pious muslims in charge, and this explain the dating system change, or the hijra system is not islamic and/or a combination of both. Even Inarah, which does spot the issue, doesn't address it properly in my opinion.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8413 - November 25, 2019, 03:00 PM
    A Catalogue of  Arab-Byzantine and Post-Reform Umayyad Coins, pdf  by John Walker 1956.

    UMAYYAD LEAD COINS.pdf by NIKOLAUS SCHINDEL

    Coins of lead from Umayyad dynasty simply tells me euther they have forged those coins from Roman utensils with similar ideas that they get from  Roman coins  or some of the Roman guys who converted in to Islam during Umayyad dynasty made them..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8414 - November 25, 2019, 04:37 PM
    Thanks Yeez and Marc,

    for the link to a wonderful 1956 work. Doesnt anything more recent exist with the latest additions?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8415 - November 25, 2019, 04:56 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on November 25, 2019, 12:53 PM
    What does Surah 106 indicate about the Quraysh ?


    It depends of the meaning of each word of the sura whose the tradition is unable to be agree, even if they more or less arrive to a vague consensus related to the "life of the Prophet". It is, from their point of view, mandatory to say more or less the same things. Therefore...

    Quote
    What does the islamic tradition say about them ?


    As the islamic tradition know nothing more than what it has patiently built with contradiction from the Quran and this passage about Quraysh, Reading the de Prémare summary about it is interesting. He is arriving quickly to Q 106.
    It then interesting to hear you about your Jewish writings.

    Quote
    It sounds like your explanation for this word has nothing to do with jewish writings in your opinion.


    I just laughed at the "little shark" Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8416 - November 25, 2019, 05:13 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on November 25, 2019, 12:59 PM
    Not from islamic awareness but in books like that https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/bulletin-of-the-school-of-oriental-and-african-studies/article/john-walker-a-catalogue-of-the-arabbyzantine-and-postreform-umaiyad-coins-a-catalogue-of-the-muhamtnadan-coins-in-the-british-museum-vol-ii-civ-329-pp-31-plates-london-british-museum-1956-5-10s/AF33A4172BF627838D933779FE2EDF83


    Yes. Pourshariati has raised same coins calendar issue about the beginning of the war in Persia.


    Quote
    In the persian region, so called islamic coins seem to have seen their dating system change from being islamic to refering to Yazdgard III to going back to hijra calendar. At the same time, pious muslims were in charge

     

    According to the narrative. But, as one knows it, the narrative is inexact.

    Quote
    so we either have no pious muslims in charge,and this explain the dating system change,

    That's correct.

     
    Quote
    or the hijra system is not islamic


    It is islamic. But was created (bona fide, there is no plot ) later and retro projected to depict the past. And, as there was no "pious muslims", it does not fit.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8417 - November 25, 2019, 05:57 PM
    de Prémare and Surah 106:

    Altara,

    You have access to de Prémare's work. What does he say on 106?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8418 - November 25, 2019, 07:08 PM
    It is an entire chapter about the "Saga of Quraysh" in his 2002 monography : https://www.amazon.com/Fondations-lIslam-Entre-%C3%A9criture-histoire/dp/2020374943/ref=sr_1_3?qid=1574708879&refinements=p_27%3ALouis+De+Pr%C3%A9mar%C3%A9&s=books&sr=1-3&text=Louis+De+Pr%C3%A9mar%C3%A9
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8419 - November 25, 2019, 07:22 PM
    Altara,

    Why don't you make a small resumé to begin a fruitful discussion...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8420 - November 25, 2019, 07:30 PM
    Quote from: mundi on November 25, 2019, 04:37 PM
    Thanks Yeez and Marc,

    for the link to a wonderful 1956 work. Doesnt anything more recent exist with the latest additions?


    You have this one https://www.amazon.fr/Sylloge-Islamic-Coins-Ashmolean-Pre-Reform/dp/1854441736
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8421 - November 25, 2019, 07:36 PM
    Quote from: Altara on November 25, 2019, 04:56 PM
    It depends of the meaning of each word of the sura whose the tradition is unable to be agree, even if they more or less arrive to a vague consensus related to the "life of the Prophet". It is, from their point of view, mandatory to say more or less the same things. Therefore...

    It then interesting to hear you about your Jewish writings.


    What is the role of the Quraysh as described by the islamic tradition ? A role surah 106 seem to hint at.

    Then what is the link in the jewish writings where you can find people having the same role ? Why does quraysh seem to tie up with those people, or let's say some of those people ?

    Quote
    I just laughed at the "little shark" Wink


    The little shark was Tabari's.

    Nevo/Koren had an interesting explanation based on one of the meaning of the root of quraysh and they pretended that it meant foederati, or in other words the arab allied tribes of the roman empire. Issue is I never found this word in 5to 7th century writings that would back up this assumption. Anyone heard about it ?

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8422 - November 25, 2019, 07:39 PM
    Quote from: Altara on November 25, 2019, 05:13 PM
    Yes. Pourshariati has raised same coins calendar issue about the beginning of the war in Persia.

     
    Yeah but this is not the issue I am mentionning.

    Quote

    It is islamic. But was created (bona fide, there is no plot ) later and retro projected to depict the past. And, as there was no "pious muslims", it does not fit.


    I would say it was islamized rather than created later and back projected. Ahadith were created later and back projected for example but this is not the same thing.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8423 - November 25, 2019, 07:50 PM
    Quote from: Altara on November 25, 2019, 07:08 PM
    It is an entire chapter about the "Saga of Quraysh" in his 2002 monography : https://www.amazon.com/Fondations-lIslam-Entre-%C3%A9criture-histoire/dp/2020374943/ref=sr_1_3?qid=1574708879&refinements=p_27%3ALouis+De+Pr%C3%A9mar%C3%A9&s=books&sr=1-3&text=Louis+De+Pr%C3%A9mar%C3%A9


    He doesn't really say much about it and seem to me to rely too heavily on the tradition but I might have missed something.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8424 - November 25, 2019, 08:09 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on November 25, 2019, 07:36 PM
    What is the role of the Quraysh as described by the islamic tradition ? A role surah 106 seem to hint at.


    You're going to tell us Wink
    Quote
    Then what is the link in the jewish writings where you can find people having the same role ? Why does quraysh seem to tie up with those people, or let's say some of those people ?


    Idem.


    Quote
    Nevo/Koren had an interesting explanation based on one of the meaning of the root of quraysh and they pretended that it meant foederati, or in other words the arab allied tribes of the roman empire. Issue is I never found this word in 5to 7th century writings that would back up this assumption. Anyone heard about it ?


    Sometimes Nevo/Koren...

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8425 - November 25, 2019, 08:11 PM
    Quote from: Marc S on November 25, 2019, 07:50 PM
    He doesn't really say much about it and seem to me to rely too heavily on the tradition but I might have missed something.


    Yes, he recounts what says the tradition, therefore he mentions Q 106 (as Q 106 is the base point of Quraysh as the "tribe of the Prophet"...)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8426 - November 26, 2019, 12:55 AM
    Marijn van Putten - Arabe 334a. A Vocalized Kufic Quran in a Non-canonical Hijazi Reading

    https://www.academia.edu/41060428/Arabe_334a._A_Vocalized_Kufic_Quran_in_a_Non-canonical_Hijazi_Reading
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8427 - November 26, 2019, 12:57 AM
    Morteza Karimi-Nia - A New Document in the Early History of the Qurʾān: Codex Mashhad, an ʿUthmānic Text of the Qurʾān in Ibn Masʿūd’s Arrangement of Sūras

    https://www.academia.edu/41027599/A_New_Document_in_the_Early_History_of_the_Qurʾān_Codex_Mashhad_an_ʿUthmānic_Text_of_the_Qurʾān_in_Ibn_Masʿūd_s_Arrangement_of_Sūras
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8428 - November 26, 2019, 10:51 AM
    Quote from: Altara on November 25, 2019, 08:09 PM
    You're going to tell us Wink
    Idem.



    Reflect. I gave enough clues.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8429 - November 26, 2019, 10:58 AM
     As usual, you start to say something and you don't go through with it. And as you do not prepare anything (article, book, etc) I consider this behaviour impolite toward the people of this forum.
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