Qur'anic studies today

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Reply #8760 - January 06, 2020, 03:22 PM

Quote from: Altara on January 06, 2020, 11:49 AM
Yes like Christianity.

Both Syriac Christians and Jews were acquainted of the Arabic script pre-Islam (512-568 inscriptions).There's no objective reason they shouldn't be.

Jews who acquainted with Arabic spoken language(NOT written Arabic) from where? ., I mean what part of middle east?? and how about Christians and Jews living in the present physical geography of Saudi Arabia ? .. What I call them as Arab Christians and Arab Jews of that time .. They too(some of those intelligent guys of that time) must have acquainted with spoken Arabic language as well as written OT & NT manuscripts/ bible of that time ...

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Reply #8761 - January 06, 2020, 04:36 PM

Both Syriac Christians and Jews were acquainted of the Arabic script pre-Islam (512-568 inscriptions)There's no objective reason they shouldn't be, as they lived with Arabs in Syria-Palestine and Iraq.

Quote
What I call them as Arab Christians and Arab Jews of that time ..

The only "Arabs Jews" are the Yemeni. They will be recognized as "Jews" much later than their conversion to Judaism. The Talmud-s does not make allusion to them.
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Reply #8762 - January 06, 2020, 10:31 PM

Quote from: mundi on January 05, 2020, 10:11 PM
The best known example of the jewish late Antique influence is the famous 5:32 verse I guess. We find its parallel in the Talmud.

well as usual I miss many posts .. and mundi post is no exception to that rule..

hi mundi.. 5:32.. the famous 5:32.. let me put that verse here

Quote
Yusuf Ali:   On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.

Shakir:      For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our apostles came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.

Pickthall:      For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.

Mohsin Khan:      Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidence, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits ~~(e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allah by committing the major sins)~~ in the land!

Saheeh:      Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.

and I also I want you to read Kaleef K. Karim on that ..

and we will discuss on that but now you tell me what Talmud verses are similar to those verses

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Reply #8763 - January 07, 2020, 06:23 AM

Yeez

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Parallelism:_Sanhedrin_37a

There are a lot of other parallelisms. Does someone have a good reference for the Talmud and the Quran?
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Reply #8764 - January 07, 2020, 01:18 PM

Witzum on 2:125 to 127

https://www.jstor.org/stable/40378843?read-now=1&refreqid=excelsior%3Ac5ecb55f468bfbc5c72bbb5dfcd6f201&seq=16#page_scan_tab_contents

Apparently this theme of building a house/altar on mount Moriah was alive and kicking in pre Quranic Christianity and Judaism...
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Reply #8765 - January 07, 2020, 04:25 PM

Nope.
Quote
Thus, for example, the descriptions of father and son building together are found in pre-Islamic Christian texts

That does not mean what you say : that Syriac Christians were eager to built something on the Temple Mount. That means that they have elaborate (before Islam) narratives about the building with Abraham and Isaac. As I already said, Christians considers that the Temple Mount has no more role in Christianity. If it was not the case they would have built something after Constantin... They build the Church of the Holy Sepulchre : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_of_the_Holy_Sepulchre

Quote
This paper has attempted to show the biblical background of the story of the foundation of the Kacba, by demonstrating the way post-biblical developments of Gen. 22 were appropriated by the Quran

Yes.

Quote
Gen. 22 probably also serves as an etiology for the worship at the temple in Jerusalem (see Gen. 22: 14), and at the very least was understood in this fashion in later Jewish tradition.72 Therefore the scene in the Quran may be understood as an appropriation of the foundation story of the Jerusalem temple, adapting it to the founding of the Kacba. This would not be the first time that the site in which the attempted sacrifice took place was identified with a sacred site of another religion.

Yes. All of this is related to what Gallez said before (2002) (Witzum is 2009) and what I say now about 637. Gallez had a real insight here. I came to this in a different way than he did. Arabs felt legitimate to build because of Q 2:124-127. For me, they had those Quranic verses: that is why they build as sons of Ishmael (as they were portrayed since ages by Jews and Christians) a House of prayer on the Temple Mount.
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Reply #8766 - January 08, 2020, 05:55 PM

Quote
For me, they had those Quranic verses:

Maybe the idea of defying Christian directives of not building on the temple mount and doing exactly that already circulated amongst certain groups/sects before the Quran was written? The Quranic author picked it up and wrote it down in his text?

Isn't that just as likely?
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Reply #8767 - January 08, 2020, 07:12 PM

There was no "order" to not build on the Temple Mount for one (good) reason: it was granted since ages. None Christians would have built something there. If this was not the case, they would have built before.Why they did not did it? If you're right, it is the question to pose. The issue is you have no response to this. Simply because this place was definitely (in Christian minds) disabled.That is why they did not did it.Instead they have built the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.
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Reply #8768 - January 08, 2020, 07:43 PM

It's not because since ages something is not done and had a taboo om it that it can't be turned around and be done at a later time.

These things happen all the time.
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Reply #8769 - January 08, 2020, 08:39 PM

It is not a taboo. It is a Christian dogma prophetized by Jesus in the Gospel that the Temple will be destroyed. The link between God and the Jews is broken and this place disabled as there is a new alliance. Christians have decided to leave the place as it was as a the symbol of what was over.
What did the Arabs in 637 is not Christian. The only people they challenge are the Jews who wanted to rebuild the Temple.
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Reply #8770 - January 09, 2020, 07:51 AM

Altara,
Taboo, forbidden, choice, dogma: whatever we call the not-building on the temple mount, it doesnt really matter here. We know that in 637 something was built. The fact that the non-building on Temple Mount was an accepted status quo by Christians proves that the ideas around it were very much alive. In such a situation taking the counter position and building something is not a big step but a logical step to make a rebellious point.

It would have been different if no one in 7th C remembered the fuzz about the Temple Mount. Then a mysterious author who dug that up out of ancient texts could have introduced it out of the blue. But with what we know, the temple Mount was a living issue at the time. The Quranic author could have picked up the already living sentiment and have written it down. The Quran is not necessarily THE inspiration of the 637 Arab action to start building. imo.
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Reply #8771 - January 09, 2020, 11:30 AM

Quote
proves that the ideas around it were very much alive

Do you have sources? I do not see any sources which ground this. Except for the Jews. 637 Arabs were Jews then? Then why they prevent Jews to build?

Quote
In such a situation taking the counter position and building something is not a big step but a logical step to make a rebellious point.

It is your deduction. Do you have sources to ground it?
(For me ...) Arabs who have built did not did it because Christians said the contrary: "One does not want a building there!" "Guys! it is because you do not want that that we want to build one !!!"
I do not think 637 Arabs as childish people.

Quote
It would have been different if no one in 7th C remembered the fuzz about the Temple Mount.

The Jews not remembering the Temple? You're serious?

Quote
Then a mysterious author who dug that up out of ancient texts could have introduced it out of the blue.

Plausibly in Q 2:125-27.

Quote
But with what we know, the temple Mount was a living issue at the time.

Yes, for the Jews, no one else. (Unless you bring new sources...)

Quote
The Quranic author could have picked up the already living sentiment and have written it down.

Unless you have (new) sources, the "living sentiment" is Jewish. Then why Arabs did not let the Jews build? Because they did not have a clue about those texts they have, apart the fact that it was written in Arabic and with that simple fact it could not concern the Jews.
Whom then?
Them.

Quote
The Quran is not necessarily THE inspiration of the 637 Arab action to start building. imo.

I do not say "necessarily". I say plausibly. I do not see where this idea would have came from.
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Reply #8772 - January 09, 2020, 01:32 PM

well let me think about these debatable nuggets from Altara posts.
Quote
Quote
.
Quote from: Altara on January 06, 2020, 04:36 PM
.........................The only "Arabs Jews" are the Yemeni. They will be recognized as "Jews" much later than their conversion to Judaism. The Talmud-s does not make allusion to them.............

[quote author=Altara link=topic=27568.msg886676#msg886676 date=1578311364
..............Both Syriac Christians and Jews were acquainted of the Arabic script pre-Islam (512-568 inscriptions).There's no objective reason they shouldn't be.

Quote from: Altara on January 09, 2020, 11:30 AM
.............(For me ...) Arabs who have built did not did it because Christians said the contrary: "One does not want a building there!" "Guys! it is because you do not want that that we want to build one !!!"
I do not think 637 Arabs as childish people................

Plausibly in Q 2:125-27.

Yes, for the Jews, no one else. (Unless you bring new sources...)

Unless you have (new) sources, the "living sentiment" is Jewish. Then why Arabs did not let the Jews build?
Quote
Because they did not have a clue about those texts they have, apart the fact that it was written in Arabic and with that simple fact it could not concern the Jews.
Whom then?
Them.

I wonder .. I am not reading all the posts but did anyone say "Arabs were childish people during that time?? .. I mean around 5th-6th and 7th century??

well I say every Muslim and Non-Muslim must read Pre-Islamic Arabian history that is .. say 2 centuries before Christ to 6th century AD.. they can start with wiki.. IT IS FREE TO READ & THINK

1. Pre-Islamic Arabia_wiki

2. A HISTORICAL SURVEY OF THE RISE AND SPREAD OF CHRISTIANITY INARABIA IN THE FIRST SIX CENTURIES AD by Kevin Borge

3. Arabia and Arabs from bronze age to coming to Islam by Robert Hoyland

well few links to read

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I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #8773 - January 09, 2020, 03:29 PM

Quote
but did anyone say "Arabs were childish people during that time?? .. I mean around 5th-6th and 7th century??

Mundi induced it: to rebel Christians: "In such a situation taking the counter position and building something is not a big step but a logical step to make a rebellious point."
Quote
Pre-Islamic Arabian history that is .. say 2 centuries before Christ to 6th century AD..

https://www.academia.edu/7806301/_Christianity_and_the_Arabs_in_the_sixth_century_in_G._Fisher_and_J._Djikstra_eds._Inside_and_Out_Interactions_Between_Rome_and_the_Peoples_on_the_Arabian_and_Egyptian_Frontiers_in_Late_Antiquity_Peeters_2014_
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Reply #8774 - January 09, 2020, 06:07 PM

Quote from: Altara on January 09, 2020, 03:29 PM
........................."https://www.academia.edu/7806301/_Christianity_and_the_Arabs_in_the_sixth_century_in_G._Fisher_and_J._Djikstra_eds._Inside_and_Out_Interactions_Between_Rome_and_the_Peoples_on_the_Arabian_and_Egyptian_Frontiers_in_Late_Antiquity_Peeters_2014_..................

hello Altara .. Ideally I would like to see/read and think about that "story of Christianity in Arabia" either from Muslim writers or Christian writers or Roman writers or Jewish writers of that time or if not tat time., at least closer to that time .. that is 6th century ..

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I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #8775 - January 09, 2020, 06:09 PM

Quote from: Altara on January 09, 2020, 03:29 PM
Mundi induced it.................

yap.. mundi is really a trouble maker here.... mundi posts always makes me to think.........

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #8776 - January 09, 2020, 06:47 PM

Yeez,

I don't really know if this was meant as a compliment, but I'll take it as one!!!
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Reply #8777 - January 09, 2020, 07:41 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on January 09, 2020, 06:07 PM
hello Altara .. Ideally I would like to see/read and think about that "story of Christianity in Arabia" either from Muslim writers or Christian writers or Roman writers or Jewish writers of that time or if not tat time., at least closer to that time .. that is 6th century ..

That is not really reliable (biases, etc.)
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Reply #8778 - January 09, 2020, 10:23 PM

Quote
Quote from: yeezevee on January 09, 2020, 06:07 PM
hello Altara .. Ideally I would like to see/read and think about that "story of Christianity in Arabia" either from Muslim writers or Christian writers or Roman writers or Jewish writers of that time or if not tat time., at least closer to that time .. that is 6th century ..

Quote from: Altara on January 09, 2020, 07:41 PM
That is not really reliable (biases, etc.)

well Altara .. we are talking about the folks of that time from different faiths telling the Islamic story.. the story of every author can not be biased., more over we should easily able to figure out with the background we have .. what is biased and what is not biased in their story..

and what is your opinion on this ....
Quote
..................Christianity can sometimes be seen as a tool of the state. It was clearly presented in these terms by Roman authors in the ﬁfh and sixth centuries and there was a real correlation between Christianity and pro-Roman sympathies. But the diversiﬁcation of Christian concessions in the sixth century also left room for non-Roman involvement as patrons of Christianity. Arab phylarchs may have begun by building churches to signal their membership of a Roman elite to other members of that elite. But by the late sixth century, Arab phylarchs could use their Christian credentials to appeal to their own Arab clients, where patronage of churches and monasteries could preserve the memory of themselves and their dynasty............................

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Reply #8779 - January 09, 2020, 10:40 PM

I agree.
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Reply #8780 - January 09, 2020, 10:45 PM

Quote from: Altara on January 09, 2020, 10:40 PM
I agree.

you agree?? So you agree with this

...............Arab converts may have begun by building churches to signal their membership of a Roman elite to other members of that elite. But by the late sixth century, Arab converts could use their Christian credentials to appeal to their own Arab clients, where patronage of churches and monasteries could preserve the memory of themselves and their dynasty............................

Yes? no??

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Reply #8781 - January 09, 2020, 11:26 PM

Yes.
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Reply #8782 - January 10, 2020, 12:09 AM

Quote from: Altara on January 09, 2020, 11:26 PM
Yes.

then you are indirectly agreeing to an hypothesis "that A SECT OF ARAB CHRISTIANITY/SECT OF CHRISTIAN ARABS INITIATED ISLAMIC DOCTRINE using existing OT/NT documents /stories" that they already knew., the only problem they had was on the Story of Christ... That Christ was Prophet and not son of god.......

if you agree with that then this must have happened before Quran became a book and before the beginning of Arab umayyad caliphate...

what is your opinion on that last statement?

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Reply #8783 - January 10, 2020, 12:28 AM

1. Nestorian Christianity in the pre-Islamic UAE and Southeastern Arabia.PDF by Peter Hellyer ...2001

2. The identity and witness of Arab pre-Islamic Arab Christianity: The Arabic language and the Bible. pdfby David D. Grafton

3. Nestorian ‘merchant missionaries’ – A model for Christian Chinese migrants.pdf by John Gordy

Quote
...................Nestorius was consecrated bishop of Constantinople on this date April 10th, 428. His elevation to this influential position had profound repercussions for the church. A firm opponent of the Arian heresy, he was accused of falling into a contrary error.

Arians taught that Christ was a created being. To refute this and other points, Nestorius argued that the Godhead joined with the human rather as if a man entered a tent or put on clothes. Instead of depicting Christ as one unified person, Nestorius saw him as a conjunction of two natures so distinct as to be different persons who had merged.

Nestorius refused to call Mary the "Mother of God." Her baby was very human, he said. Jesus' human acts and sufferings were of his human nature, not his Godhead. To say Mary was Mother of God was to say God had once been a few hours old. "God is not a baby two or three months old," he argued.

He never denied that Christ was divine. On the contrary, it was to protect Christ's divinity that he argued as he did, lest it be lost in worship of the human child. The divine nature could not be born of a woman. Nestorius' refusal to use the term "theotokus," Mother of God, led to a big argument. He pointed out that the apostles and early church fathers never employed the word. But he could not resolve the issue so as to bring into focus the Jesus we know from scripture who is completely and truly both God and man...........

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Reply #8784 - January 10, 2020, 02:24 AM

Quote
then you are indirectly agreeing to an hypothesis...

I will not respond: it is not the place (for me) to state if I think this or that about the grand theory. Details yes, grand theory, I keep it for myself as I'm working on it to be published. Sorry Yeez.
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Reply #8785 - January 10, 2020, 05:09 AM

Quote from: Altara on January 10, 2020, 02:24 AM
I will not respond: it is not the place (for me) to state if I think this or that about the grand theory. Details yes, grand theory, I keep it for myself as I'm working on it to be published. Sorry Yeez.

that is OK but I was NOT asking about that dear Altara.. I was asking about last statement
Quote from: yeezevee on January 10, 2020, 12:09 AM
what is your opinion on that last statement?

and the last statement was

. .............this must have happened before Quran became a book and before the beginning of Arab umayyad caliphate......................

you can answer with YES OR NO ...

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Reply #8786 - January 10, 2020, 11:20 AM

Quote
this must have happened before Quran became a book and before the beginning of Arab umayyad caliphate

What is "this"? it is that: "if you agree with that then..."
As I (already) said I will not respond because it is impossible to respond to a piece of phrase without what there is before... I'm sure you get it. Dear Yeez.
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Reply #8787 - January 10, 2020, 12:52 PM

Quote from: Altara on January 10, 2020, 11:20 AM
What is "this"? it is that: "if you agree with that then..."
As I (already) said I will not respond because it is impossible to respond to a piece of phrase without what there is before... I'm sure you get it. Dear Yeez.

Holy allah doll.... holy voodoo doll ......holy god........ holy cow ..

let me rewrite Altara post......

What is "this"?
it is that:
"if you agree with that then..."
what there is before
I'm sure you get it.

and he responded that lyric just because I asked him to say ..... "YES" or "NO..."., It is actually not me asking that question I just rephrased one of mundi post as question .. mundi should be blamed for my error

well then let me ask you different question dear Altara

1. Are you working on a book?
2. Are you working on Ph. D. or some other thesis?
3. Are you writing a review?
4. Or Are you writing it for a publication?

just point out to a number....

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Reply #8788 - January 10, 2020, 12:53 PM

Well, I have (already) responded to these questions

Read this :

https://www.academia.edu/24117123/With_G._Fisher_Writing_the_History_of_the_Persian_Arabs_The_pre-Islamic_perspective_on_the_Nasrids_of_al-Hirah
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Reply #8789 - January 10, 2020, 12:59 PM

Quote from: Altara on January 10, 2020, 12:53 PM
Well, I have (already) responded to these questions

Read this :

https://www.academia.edu/24117123/With_G._Fisher_Writing_the_History_of_the_Persian_Arabs_The_pre-Islamic_perspective_on_the_Nasrids_of_al-Hirah

thanks for that pub.. sounds interesting

my goodness.. Now we have Persian Arabs??.. well let me read that Greg Fisher's work

We have Arab Arabs... Israeli Arabs.. Syrian Arabs.. Yemeni Arabs.. Kurdish Arabs...Palestinian Arabs...Turkish Arabs..... pagan Arabs.. desert Arabs..........Arabs everywhere .. poor Arab folks of that time are blamed for everything that is bad in Islam

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
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Topic: Qur'anic studies today

yeezevee

Reply #8760 - January 06, 2020, 03:22 PM

Altara

Reply #8761 - January 06, 2020, 04:36 PM

yeezevee

Reply #8762 - January 06, 2020, 10:31 PM

mundi

Reply #8763 - January 07, 2020, 06:23 AM

mundi

Reply #8764 - January 07, 2020, 01:18 PM

Altara

Reply #8765 - January 07, 2020, 04:25 PM

mundi

Reply #8766 - January 08, 2020, 05:55 PM

Altara

Reply #8767 - January 08, 2020, 07:12 PM

mundi

Reply #8768 - January 08, 2020, 07:43 PM

Altara

Reply #8769 - January 08, 2020, 08:39 PM

mundi

Reply #8770 - January 09, 2020, 07:51 AM

Altara

Reply #8771 - January 09, 2020, 11:30 AM

yeezevee

Reply #8772 - January 09, 2020, 01:32 PM

Altara

Reply #8773 - January 09, 2020, 03:29 PM

yeezevee

Reply #8774 - January 09, 2020, 06:07 PM

yeezevee

Reply #8775 - January 09, 2020, 06:09 PM

mundi

Reply #8776 - January 09, 2020, 06:47 PM

Altara

Reply #8777 - January 09, 2020, 07:41 PM

yeezevee

Reply #8778 - January 09, 2020, 10:23 PM

Altara

Reply #8779 - January 09, 2020, 10:40 PM

yeezevee

Reply #8780 - January 09, 2020, 10:45 PM

Altara

Reply #8781 - January 09, 2020, 11:26 PM

yeezevee

Reply #8782 - January 10, 2020, 12:09 AM

yeezevee

Reply #8783 - January 10, 2020, 12:28 AM

Altara

Reply #8784 - January 10, 2020, 02:24 AM

yeezevee

Reply #8785 - January 10, 2020, 05:09 AM

Altara

Reply #8786 - January 10, 2020, 11:20 AM

yeezevee

Reply #8787 - January 10, 2020, 12:52 PM

Altara

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