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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8940 - February 04, 2020, 02:50 PM
    Quote
    YOU WOULD HAVE WRITTEN AT LEAST ONE POST that is good from her work  [...] TO ME YOUR PROBLEM WITH HER/HER WORK APPEARS TO BE PERSONAL  ..may be I am wrong..


    Things does not work like that. I judge Crone's work, especially from the fact that she is considered sceptic in the field. She was not as shows Badawi in my quote. You make something personal whereas it is not.Curious, that you does not get it.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8941 - February 06, 2020, 11:25 AM
    Quote from: Altara on February 04, 2020, 02:50 PM
    Things does not work like that.

     Cheesy  no...noo.. noooooooooo...Historians, or scientists or any one with inquiring  mindset  also human beings.. they are NOT born saints., they  all have all those emotional qualities and behavioral properties such as anger, happiness, laziness, ego etc..etc dear Altara ., Different people may control them in different level when they are expressing their personalities  but every human being will have those qualities.. You and me are no exception to that rule..  so such highlighted things do work like that around human beings Cheesy

    Quote
    I judge Crone's work, especially from the fact that she is considered sceptic in the field. She was not as shows Badawi in my quote. You make something personal whereas it is not.Curious, that you does not get it.

    Nope.. nope.. YOU ARE NOT JUDGING HER WORK., you are judging her personality that too because someone else (other historians) consider her/her work as skeptic in the field
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8942 - February 10, 2020, 01:13 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 03, 2020, 01:13 PM
    Damn you.,   you add more questions with your answers.. Oh well.,  that is the way discussions go on a tough subject  but  let me first read that François Déroche's Qur'ans of the Umayyads

     http://data.nur.nu/Kutub/English/Qurans-of-the-Umayyads-A-First-Overview_by-Deroche_Brill.pdf


     well I am reading that François Déroche.. here and there ., So in that page 12 of that review he give a reference of a fascinating guy from Russia..

     –87 ....E. Z. Rezvan, On the dating of an“ʿUthmanic Qurʾan” from Saint Peters burg.,  ., ManuscriptaOrientalia6–3[September2000],pp.19–22) ..

    And I casually went through E. Z. Rezvan's , work as he published a paper on Islam and Russia .

    THE  QUR’ĀN  AND  POWER  IN  RUSSIA. PDF   By E. Rezvan

    So let me put some of his work on Early Quran/Quran manuscripts    you can see him in these tubes
    Quote
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSTlPeEg-Ps

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_dm_VG_gCs

    https://www.facebook.com/lessonstobelearnedfromhistory/videos/dr-efim-a-rezvans-speech/105766136133776/


    Glimpses into history: 5 ancient Koranic manuscripts in Russia by   By E. Rezvan

    and many of his publications on early Quran manuscripts  that are there  in and around Russia can be read from
     
    http://lib.kunstkamera.ru/rubrikator/02/978-5-88431-236-4/
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8943 - February 11, 2020, 05:38 PM
    Petra Sijpelstijn on the slow and rapid introduction of Arabic in the administration throughout the empire:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Da9D1BwJMgY&feature=youtu.be&app=desktop
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8944 - February 20, 2020, 08:43 PM
    Sassanids left Jerusalem in 630

    Mohammed entered Aqaba in 630

    What a mixture of armies there must have been around these crucial years in the Levant (and Egypt). It's not as if the Romans were back in the Levant governing steadily the province and extracting taxes. It is as if the Arabs took over where the Sassanids left. The Romans seem to have come, looked and turned back,

    Is there something in this theory that the Romans subcontracted to the Arabs the governance of the Levant by an agreement, not by a lost war?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8945 - February 20, 2020, 11:19 PM
    Quote from: mundi on February 20, 2020, 08:43 PM
    Sassanids left Jerusalem in 630


    Source ?

    Quote
    The Romans seem to have come, looked and turned back,


    Well, at least this is what Heraclius did when he brought back the Cross to Jerusalem.

    Quote
    Is there something in this theory that the Romans subcontracted to the Arabs the governance of the Levant by an agreement, not by a lost war?


    The Roman clients might have been the ones to loose the war Smiley


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8946 - February 21, 2020, 02:31 PM
    Quote
    In 628, following the deposition of Khosrau II, Kavadh II made peace with Heraclius giving Palaestina Prima and the True Cross back to the Byzantines. The conquered city and the Holy Cross would remain in Sasanian hands until they were returned by Shahrbaraz. Shahrbaraz and his son Niketas, who converted to Christianity, would control Jerusalem until at least the late summer/early autumn of 629.[24] On March 21 630 Heraclius marched in triumph into Jerusalem with the True Cross.[25]

    fp

    from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasanian_conquest_of_Jerusalem
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8947 - February 22, 2020, 12:49 PM
    mundi puts out something from uncle wiki

    Quote from: mundi on February 21, 2020, 02:31 PM
    fp

    from Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasanian_conquest_of_Jerusalem

    Quote
    In 628, following the deposition of Khosrau II, Kavadh II made peace with Heraclius giving Palaestina Prima and the True Cross back to the Byzantines. The conquered city and the Holy Cross would remain in Sasanian hands until they were returned by Shahrbaraz. Shahrbaraz and his son Niketas, who converted to Christianity, would control Jerusalem until at least the late summer/early autumn of 629.[24] On March 21 630 Heraclius marched in triumph into Jerusalem with the True Cross.[25]


    mundi  wiki is just for startup...and one must be careful to take that as true history from what people have written at wiki  specially when it comes to history unlike science subjects

    let us not take what these guys wrote

    Quote
    Walter Emil Kaegi (2003). Heraclius, Emperor of Byzantium. Cambridge University Press. pp. 185, 189. ISBN 9780521814591. Retrieved 12 March 2014.

     Michael H. Dodgeon, Samuel N. C. Lieu, eds. (2002). The Roman Eastern Frontier and the Persian Wars Ad 363-628, Part 2. Taylor & Francis. pp. 227–228.


    on their face value.. in fact names like  Shahrbaraz ....Niketas..... itself is questionable... they are NOT original names.. they are titles., like "MUHAMMAD" but this


    Byzantine and Sassanid empires and their vassals at the beginning of 7th century CE. Based on the http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:East-Hem_600ad.jpg by User:Talessman

    geographical picture from your wiki link is very useful one
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8948 - February 22, 2020, 05:16 PM
    Yeez,

    So what do you correct in my timeline?
    Were Sassanids only removed in 629 or not?
    Did Heraclius only enter Jerusalem in 630 or not?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8949 - February 22, 2020, 05:28 PM
    Quote from: mundi on February 22, 2020, 05:16 PM
    Yeez,

    So what do you correct in my timeline?
    Were Sassanids only removed in 629 or not?
    Did Heraclius only enter Jerusalem in 630 or not?

    OOps .. where is the timeline in your post and what timeline are we talking dear mundi...

    well there are many holes in the stories that are floating on Heraclius and Sassanids.,   but I am not sure that is anything to do with POLITICAL ISLAM that was propagated., and you can see that kind of Islam in this folder..  which actually gives you time line of Islam

    Chronological History of  Islam 

    and and I was not correcting anything but telling the reader to question   these words.. the names of persons  in wiki

    Quote
    ........Sasanian hands until they were returned by Shahrbaraz. Shahrbaraz and his son Niketas, who converted to Christianity,........


    anyways please point to your post of that timeline ..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8950 - February 22, 2020, 05:56 PM
    My timeline

    Quote
    Sassanids left Jerusalem in 630

    Mohammed entered Aqaba in 630


    Apparently Aqaba was " on its own" for 50 years before the Arabs took over...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8951 - February 22, 2020, 06:13 PM
    Quote
    Quote from: mundi on February 22, 2020, 05:56 PM
    My timeline

    Sassanids left Jerusalem in 630

    Mohammed entered Aqaba in 630


    nah.... Cheesy that is NOT TIME LINE dear mundi.,  it is  just a date.. just a year., and  it is just a hand waving statement from 16th century Muslim historians  and copied by some western university professors  in 19th/20th century and  publish it as Islamic history  Cheesy  dear mundi ..

    what Mohammed entered Aqaba in 630?? which Muhammad?? where is Aqaba??  it is all the way down in the  Arabian Ocean

    Quote
    Apparently Aqaba was " on its own" for 50 years before the Arabs took over...

    That would be nice if you could get some link of Aqaba history from 5th to 7th century...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8952 - February 22, 2020, 08:10 PM
    Quote
    Sassanids left Jerusalem in 630

    Mohammed entered Aqaba in 630


    I do realize that the Aqaba date is part of muslim tradition and thus not reliable. But the Jerusalem 630 date is afaik. Leaves a whole part of " arabia" not ruled by the Sassanides nor the Byzantines.

    If there is a kernel of truth in the Hijaz provenance of the "muslims", they must have passed through Aqaba, probably camped there for a few years. And then these dates become relevant.

    The dates bring us to 630's, that is what c14 dating gives us for the oldest manuscripts. Is Aqaba area the place where the scribal workshop was? Was the scribal committee located in that area?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8953 - February 23, 2020, 02:51 PM
    Quote from: mundi on February 22, 2020, 08:10 PM
    ............muslim .................
    ............. "muslims", .................

    The dates bring us to 630's, that is what c14 dating gives us for the oldest manuscripts. Is Aqaba area the place where the scribal workshop was? Was the scribal committee located in that area?

    well words like "Muslim.. Islam ..Muhammad.." and their  presence in Quran verses  in the present book as well as in so-called Old Quran manuscripts .......we have discussed  that in this folder itself dear mundi.,  anyways going back to your response

    Quote from: mundi on February 22, 2020, 08:10 PM
    I do realize that the Aqaba date is part of muslim tradition and thus not reliable. But the Jerusalem 630 date is afaik. Leaves a whole part of " arabia" not ruled by the Sassanides nor the Byzantines.

    yes that  seems to be true ., may be true but one must realize those vessel rulers/ mini kings of Arabian states(NOT WHOLE ARABIA) were partially under the control of  Sassanides or Byzantines...    Sassanides or Byzantines may not have directly ruled them., but these mini rulers of arabian states must have been in touch with either with Sassanides or Byzantines.  And i am not following the argument ..with reference to its relevance  to your time line
    Quote
    Sassanids left Jerusalem in 630

    Mohammed entered Aqaba in 630

    and specially to  the word "MUHAMMAD"

    Quote
    If there is a kernel of truth in the Hijaz provenance of the "muslims", they must have passed through Aqaba, probably camped there for a few y ears. And then these dates become relevant.

     
    but why start the journey of Islam  from Hijaz provenance??

    when there is no trace of BIIG MECCA TOWN at that time,  why start present  Islam and present book Quran from Mecca... Hijaz provenance ?? I am going to sing Altara song.. 

    Mecca., Medina  Muhammad zam-zam?
    where is it?
    where in Quran?
     it is all zam zam water ..


    Quran itself is proof for that . Quran manuscripts  hardly says anything on "Mecca.. and even Muhammad and muslim.," ., it just uses those words  Actually I think those words were added in to Quran /Quran manuscripts at later times., 

    Quote
    The dates bring us to 630's, that is what c14 dating gives us for the oldest manuscripts. Is Aqaba the place where the scribal workshop was? Was the scribal committee located in that area?

    well C14 data has enough experimental error bars that these manuscripts could be from year 630  or 530 or even 690 ..  and   that  scribal workshop or the scribal committee could have been  located in near Jerusalem or in some other towns near by why Aqaba?  what is so special about that place?? I mean much of Quran comes from the stories of OT & NT ., the only thing Quran  does is  "QUESTION  NT STATEMENT THAT  "JESUS AS SON OF GOD" and it adds some words like "Muhammad and mecca" in few verses ..  these OT & NT stories could have been written anywhere ..

    who knows where those manuscripts were written.. Allah knows the best  dear mundi Cheesy
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8954 - February 23, 2020, 03:21 PM
    So I like reading Quran., in the above post I said on Quran words like  "Mecca., Medina,  Muhammad, Muslim"
    Quote
    Quran manuscripts  hardly says anything on "Mecca.. and even Muhammad and muslim.," ., it just uses those words  in few verses., Actually I think those words were added in to Quran /Quran manuscripts at later times.

    So let me take a word from mundi post and read Quran verses
    Quote from: mundi on February 22, 2020, 08:10 PM
    I do realize that the Aqaba date is part of muslim ''

    If there is a kernel of truth in the Hijaz provenance of the "muslims", ...

     So the word is "Muslim"

    dear mundi Question is., that word  "MUSLIM".. was it there in any Arabic script  or in other languages before the year say 500? before the birth of classical Islam??   it is interesting to esquire about the origin of these words

    Quote
      Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian but he was  upright , a muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists............. Aal-i-Imraan, . Verse #67)

    And the same did Ibrahim enjoin on his sons and (so did) Yaqoub. O my sons! surely Allah has chosen for you (this) faith, therefore die not unless you are  muslims,. ...........Al-Baqara. Verse #132


    So All the prophets that were born before the birth of Islam before the birth of "Muhammad" were Muslims....
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8955 - March 06, 2020, 09:53 PM
    Guillaume Dye on the synoptic problem of the Quran. More than 1 hour and a half of listening pleasure!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYDtMQnKTHU&t=5696s

    (for the ones who understand French of course   dance)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8956 - March 07, 2020, 02:33 PM
    Quote from: mundi on March 06, 2020, 09:53 PM
    .............. synoptic problem of the Quran...................

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYDtMQnKTHU&t=5696s

    (for the ones who understand French of course   dance)

    Synoptic what?
    problems what?
     Is it in Quran the book?
    or is it in Quran verses here and there ?
    or is it in Quran manuscripts ?

      or... or is that Synoptic eccentricity is present in the original manuscripts...... book ....whatever... before Quran.,  And....  and that gets transferred in to Quran verses at  a much later time   dear mundi?

    So many questions in my brain and sure they are also there  in  you and in Guillaume dear mundi...

    hmm.. http://www.islamforchristians.com/synoptic-qurans-like-synoptic-gospels/

    that is a good one to read.................Islam for Christians... .........  .. Christianity for Muslims..............
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8957 - March 07, 2020, 08:20 PM
    Quote from: mundi on March 06, 2020, 09:53 PM
    Guillaume Dye on the synoptic problem of the Quran. More than 1 hour and a half of listening pleasure!
    (for the ones who understand French of course   dance)

    They have removed the possibility to comment whereas it was there when the video was posted.
     If the report is factual Dye's explication about it has many difficulties.
    Dye remarks certain things in passing but does not insists about it. Whereas it is key things.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8958 - March 09, 2020, 10:06 AM
    Dye and his video:

    Quote
    If the report is factual Dye's explication about it has many difficulties.


    What do you mean Altara? I don't think Dye gives a specific explanation for the different versions of certain stories in the Quran.
    He points out the fact that certain stories (like the one of Adam and the Devil) seem to have been retaken word for word in different places in the Quran but elaborated or changed slightly. He leaves open the possibility it is done by different authors or by the same one. But he does conclude that the changes must have been made starting from the written (partially finished) Quranic texts, not an oral version.

    No further "factual explanations"from Dye's part as far as I have heard. You know more Altara?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8959 - March 09, 2020, 01:12 PM
    Quote from: mundi on March 09, 2020, 10:06 AM
    Dye and his video:

    What do you mean Altara? I don't think Dye gives a specific explanation for the different versions of certain stories in the Quran.
    He points out the fact that certain stories (like the one of Adam and the Devil) seem to have been retaken word for word in different places in the Quran but elaborated or changed slightly. He leaves open the possibility it is done by different authors or by the same one. But he does conclude that the changes must have been made starting from the written (partially finished) Quranic texts, not an oral version.


    It appears many folks that are in field of exploring Quran.. publish history in peer reviewed journals and write their story   from historical narrations of Quran .  they , also  work in universities as faculties   and  AND DO NOT ACTUALLY  READ QURAN PROPERLY..  As usual they take one verse here and one verses there and make up their own story.. 

    and.. and that word  "DEVIL" and its story in Quran is a perfect example.. in fact many folks who read and write about Quran   do not differentiate between "Devil, Satan and Iblis" that are often used in many Quran verses
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8960 - March 09, 2020, 01:41 PM
    Yeez,

    Sorry for retelling Dye's talk in my own words. Dye did use all the correct terminology, it is I who made of Saytan the Devil (cultural bias of my part).
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8961 - March 09, 2020, 02:33 PM
    Quote from: mundi on March 09, 2020, 01:41 PM
    Yeez,

    Sorry for retelling Dye's talk in my own words. Dye did use all the correct terminology, it is I who made of Saytan the Devil (cultural bias of my part).

    no..no..nooo., you don't need to be sorry dear mundi.,  in fact I  have zero back ground of French language., so i will not be able to comment on  what is there in Dye's talk.

    my comment was general .. and you took a perfect example of  "Adam and the Devil/Iblis/Satan  whatever story in your post.. " .,

     what all I am saying is,  one should NOT confuse the use of those words in Quran ..  and the confusion gets cleared up if we read Quran verses in context .. not just a verse or few words in a verse.,  this problem is far more severe in faith heads of Islam

    here let me give an example of a publication  on that..

    ADAM’S STORY IN THE QUR’ĀN by MLADA MIKULICOVÁ  .,  THEOLOGICA 2014– roč. 4, č. 2Pag. 277–296

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8962 - March 09, 2020, 05:44 PM
    Quote from: mundi on March 09, 2020, 10:06 AM
    Dye and his video:

    What do you mean Altara? I don't think Dye gives a specific explanation for the different versions of certain stories in the Quran.
    He points out the fact that certain stories (like the one of Adam and the Devil) seem to have been retaken word for word in different places in the Quran but elaborated or changed slightly. He leaves open the possibility it is done by different authors or by the same one. But he does conclude that the changes must have been made starting from the written (partially finished) Quranic texts, not an oral version.

    No further "factual explanations"from Dye's part as far as I have heard. You know more Altara?


    I mean that it he is supposed to be an historian, it is what more or less what he claims. Why not. Therefore I do not only wait from him a sole literary analysis without a historical analysis somewhere as if the historical analysis was already settled. Now, it is precisely what one waits because it is not settled at all. Who are the writers of the corpus, where and when it happens?  He seems to stuck with the narrative as he speaks of the "Prophet Muhammad" but he does not really articulate it even if he uses the loophole of writings "after the death of the 'Prophet Muhammad'. How much of the corpus is written "after the death of the 'Prophet Muhammad' "? When one listen to his lecture it is still unknown. One does not know more of it than in the beginning of the lecture.
    All of this remains in the world of ideas, nothing is in the "real" world as if the corpus had appeared by magic.  It is a literary analysis which is not combined with the mandatory historical one. Now it is the historical one that one needs, not the sole literary one. Of  course Dye encounters resistance, one knows that perfectly well, of course it is risky, one knows that perfectly well, but he is engaged himself freely. It would be too easy to stay where he stands : only with the literary analysis.  It looks like the discussion about "did Shakespeare is the real writer of this theatre?" But it is not Shakespeare here, nobody believe that "Midnight Summer Dream" is the Word of the Biblical God.
    Dye walks on one leg.
    That is why (in my opinion cf.Marc TM) things have to be clear at the beginning, and the beginning is history nothing else: all the historical affirmations given by the narrative about the Quran are inexact (Mecca/Zem zem/ Kaba). It's only then that one can start the literary analysis and and note that well... the authors of the Quran does not come from the Western peninsula, etc.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8963 - March 09, 2020, 08:19 PM
    Historical  versus literary  analysis:

    Yes, true. There is no historical analysis. But it is a very convincing analysis that I haven't heard yet until now. I wonder how some scholars maintain the model of complete orality being written down after seeing this.

    The next step (and I hope Dye makes it), is connecting historical consequences to this exposé.

    But what do we know now?

    It seems that this text has been written and rewritten in a scribal workshop over some time. The theology seems to have evolved over time. That means there must have been discussion. This isn't the work of a single genius. So you need the environment where late Antique Christianity and Judaism were very well known. But also out of reach of the Byzantine empire otherwise there would have been historical traces of the new ideological workshop, or it might not have been able to develop.

    What do you learn out of this Altara?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8964 - March 10, 2020, 12:15 AM
    Quote
    Yes, true. There is no historical analysis.


    Of course. And from this moment nothing can appear about the authors of the Quran. So what's the point? For me there's a tension here; Dye claims more or less constantly that he is an historian, he calls his book "the Quran of the historians" No one's forcing him to say these words. Now the historical analysis is fundamental regarding the Quranic corpus and he does not says a word about that. Not a word. Whereas he titles his book "the Quran of the historians" and claims to be one.
    Quote
    But it is a very convincing analysis that I haven't heard yet until now. I wonder how some scholars maintain the model of complete orality being written down after seeing this.


    1/Of course it is a very convincing analysis. But he does not concludes it. Why people would do what he describes?  What does that mean to write seven different versions of a same story?  Is what he describes credible : different people, one by one, would change the story?  Why? Who? When? Where? He does not talk about that, he does not go beyond the simple description. He does not give any credible explanation, one would says that it does not interest him. If that does not interest him, what does he does here?  He is engaged himself freely,  no one has forced him
    2/They maintain the model because they got a salary each month to make a living for their family. Of course, the model of complete orality being written down is a fake. A big fake. There is no orality, there is text. I never believed the orality, I always thought it was a fake. Of course it is.
    Quote
    The next step (and I hope Dye makes it), is connecting historical consequences to this exposé.


    I'm afraid, he will not do it. But the pressure will be, as time goes by, intense. People will, one day or another, ask him the historical consequences of what he says. He will not respond. It's too risky.
    Quote
    It seems that this text has been written and rewritten in a scribal workshop over some time. The theology seems to have evolved over time. That means there must have been discussion. This isn't the work of a single genius. So you need the environment where late Antique Christianity and Judaism were very well known.But also out of reach of the Byzantine empire otherwise there would have been historical traces of the new ideological workshop, or it might not have been able to develop.


    1/ That's correct.
    2/Idem.
    3/ Idem
    4/ Of course.
    5/Of course.
    6/Of course.
    Quote
    What do you learn out of this Altara?


    Nothing. I already knew it .


  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8965 - March 10, 2020, 12:19 AM
    Dye has made (in French) three interviews with Regis Burnet : Feb 2,9,16 :

    https://rmc.bfmtv.com/mediaplayer/podcast/emission-religieuse/

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8966 - March 10, 2020, 07:10 AM
    Altara,

    I wrote down what I learnt out of Dye's talk. I think you can share a bit more than just telling me you agree with what I say.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8967 - March 10, 2020, 09:28 AM
    Damn for no good reason I & Altara have problem with Patricia Crone's  work .,  " I say,   she did a good work within the limits of her abilities and he says "SHE COMPLETELY STOPPED THE PROGRESS OF THE FIELD and took undue credit for her work., "   Cheesy Cheesy   Anyways I must again say here that  Altara posts always have some nuggets so Let me rewrite the nuggets from his post . as I understood
    Quote from: Altara on March 09, 2020, 05:44 PM

    1). Exploration of origins of the present book Quran needs historical analysis

    2), The literary analysis  Quran in absence of  historical analysis of its origins  is useless

    3). It is important for historians to address and settle simple questions like "Who are the writers of the corpus, where and when it happens?  

    4). Historians like Dye seems to stuck with the narrative as he speaks of the "Prophet Muhammad" but he does not really articulate it even if he uses the loophole of writings "after the death of the 'Prophet Muhammad'.  A simple Questions like

    How much of the corpus is written "after the death of the 'Prophet Muhammad' "?  OR WHAT VERSES WERE ADDED?DELETED  IN TO THE CORPUS   after prophet's death ?

    5) All of this remains in the world of ideas, nothing is in the "real" world as if the corpus had appeared by magic.

    6)  A literary analysis of Quran  without historical analyses of its origins  is useless.,   it is the historical one that is badly needed, not the sole literary one.

    Quote
    Of  course Dye encounters resistance, one knows that perfectly well, ,..............of course it is risky, one knows that perfectly well ....., but he is engaged himself freely. It would be too easy to stay where he stands : only with the literary analysis.  

    It looks like the discussion about "did Shakespeare is the real writer of this theatre?" But it is not Shakespeare here, nobody believe that "Midnight Summer Dream" is the Word of the Biblical God.

    Dye walks on one leg.


    Hello Altara correct me if I did any mistake of presenting your post in those nuggets
     
    Well I want to say one thing here  on those Altara words that are highlighted in Quotes

    ..... many historians that analyse Quran origins seem to  think this way

    ................The quest for truth is laudable, but better still if someone else dies for the lofty ideals and I make  some money by writing some pubs and some books........... ,yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8968 - March 10, 2020, 09:39 AM
    Yeez,

    On your question:

    Quote
    How much of the corpus is written "after the death of the 'Prophet Muhammad' "?  OR WHAT VERSES WERE ADDED?DELETED  IN TO THE CORPUS   after prophet's death ?


    There are c14's of around 630. My guess is that nothing was written after the dead of Mohammed (If he existed, I think he did but not as writer of the Quran, but as the front of the new (military) movement).

    And nothing was added or deleted after the texts being put together around 630.

    You might not like some parts of the Quran but nothing can be done about it. The Quran is as it is.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #8969 - March 10, 2020, 09:51 AM
    Quote from: mundi on March 10, 2020, 09:39 AM
    Yeez,

    On your question:

    There are c14's of around 630. My guess is that nothing was written after the dead of Mohammed (If he existed, I think he did but not as writer of the Quran, but as the front of the new (military) movement).

    And nothing was added or deleted after the texts being put together around 630.

    You might not like some parts of the Quran but nothing can be done about it. The Quran is as it is.

    Quran is a BOOK  nothing more than a book ,, what is there to like it or not like it dear mundi?

    A book is a book is a book ...for its time it is a remarkable book whose Author/s were very intelligent to present a religious manual with George Bernard Shaw literacy style that too writing it in a language which was very recent  of its time ..

    As far as  YOUR GUESS( on  carbon13 & Quran dating experiments) is concerned I can guess zillion guesses that overshadows your guess  Cheesy Cheesy
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
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