Qur'anic studies today

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- moi
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Reply #9300 - June 05, 2020, 04:11 PM

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
- Altara
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Reply #9301 - June 05, 2020, 04:47 PM

Interesting free stuff.

https://www.sbl-site.org/publications/Books_ANEmonographs.aspx
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Reply #9302 - June 05, 2020, 05:13 PM

Slightly tangentially but not actually! I am reading Commonplace Books and reading in Georgian England by David Allen, who argues I think cogently that writing is incomplete with out reading, and it is in fact the act of reading that brings a work to life.

Writing is therefore always partial and incomplete- the one hand clapping in a forest.

A written completely true word of god is thus impossible, especially as languages are also only attempts to put meaning on life.

Even if Goddidit manage to get his thoughts down perfectly they would be incomplete as they must be read by someone, chewed over, thought about, digested. A delicious meal once it is eaten eventually...

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
- Asbjoern1958
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Reply #9303 - June 05, 2020, 05:27 PM

Quote from: Altara on June 04, 2020, 09:44 PM
A Ummayad guy I think. Even if there is no "prophetic" things on it, the knowing of who he is exactly is controversial (Muhammad the prophet/or not)

Beginning of the 8th I'd say : 700.
The word "muhammad" in the Dome inscription is notoriously ambiguous. But not in the Quran.

Notoriously ambiguous, especially for Christians Arabophone.
Not necessarily. One cannot put the argument of "correct language" when it deals with certain touchy topics like this.
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Reply #9304 - June 05, 2020, 05:29 PM

Altara, so you don't believe in Ohlig's ideas about Muhammad as a title? Who is Muhammed in the Quran?
- yeezevee
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Reply #9305 - June 05, 2020, 08:41 PM

Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on June 05, 2020, 05:29 PM
Altara, so you don't believe in Ohlig's ideas about Muhammad as a title? Who is Muhammed in the Quran?

Muhammad from the beginning to the end .(( that is .end being today's date)) and .all those Muhammads that you see in those tons of Hadith sayings and some three verses of Quran IS INDEED A TITLE dear Asbjoern1958.., Not only that., I will go further and say that all those Muhammads from since the first time that word was attached to a person's name to today that you see/read about/ read from having that that adjective attached to the names Muslim male folks is indeed THE TITLE attached to the their respective names..

And and for those who read Quran and who read hadith and who read Islamic history There should be little on that., Doubts are in the minds of faith heads and in the minds of THOSE ACADEMICS FROM WEST WHO ARE/WERE PROFESSORS in some history/religious departments in some universities write publications on the story of Muhammad.....

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- yeezevee
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Reply #9306 - June 05, 2020, 08:54 PM

Quote from: moi on June 05, 2020, 04:06 PM
Has anyone done a concordance of the Koran ?

well i tried that long time ago .. but I gave up.. dear moi ., I guess all theses posts are for me right?

Quote
https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg888090#msg888090
https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg888088#msg888088
https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.msg888087#msg888087

and where did you get this from

Quote from: moi on June 05, 2020, 04:11 PM
We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made. ................

Is it from some NT book??

thank you

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- yeezevee
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Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9307 - June 05, 2020, 08:59 PM

Quote from: Altara on June 05, 2020, 04:47 PM
Interesting free stuff.

https://www.sbl-site.org/publications/Books_ANEmonographs.aspx

thanks .. that has good stuff and I like this one and the land they lived Reading Akkadian Prayers and Hymns: An Introduction by Alan Lenzi, ANEM 3, 2011

my goodness that book is some 500 pages..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Altara
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Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9308 - June 05, 2020, 11:30 PM

Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on June 05, 2020, 05:29 PM
Altara, so you don't believe in Ohlig's ideas about Muhammad as a title?

Suppose that the Quran did not exist and we have only the inscription of the Dome, "Muhammad" in the inscription of the Dome would be for us much more ambiguous than today .Whereas I consider this word, even with the Quran, ambiguous for us today.

Quote
Who is Muhammed in the Quran?

For the authors of the Quran, an abstract figure that they have invented whom the reader have to deduct that he is the personage to whom God speak.
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Reply #9309 - June 06, 2020, 09:09 AM

Quote from: Asbjoern1958 Questions on June 05, 2020, 05:29 PM
Altara, so you don't believe in Ohlig's ideas about Muhammad as a title? Who is Muhammed in the Quran?

Quote from: Altara answers on June 05, 2020, 11:30 PM
Suppose that the Quran did not exist and we have only the inscription of the Dome, "Muhammad" in the inscription of the Dome would be for us much more ambiguous than today .Whereas I consider this word, even with the Quran, ambiguous for us today.

you really did not answer the question dear Altara.... that Muhammad in the Quran was ambiguous or not ,, let me rephrase that Question., WAS THERE ANY REAL PERSON WHO HAD NAME /Added to his name the word MUHAMMAD....... who is connected Quran verses and earliest times of Islam?

I consider Islamic Muhammad(Quranic and Hadith) is a Multiple actions and characters of Multiple leaders of early Islam.. all the way to to the end hadith stories/sayings attached to his name..

As far as Quranic Muhammad(NO HADITH) is considered I think he was also real person and is nothing to do with early Quran manuscripts ..but those 3 or 4 verses were added in to original manuscripts ... which became the book... present Quran at later times ...

Quote
the authors of the Quran,

So you think Quran had multiple authors.. actually I am saying that for the past 10 ..12 years

Quote
an abstract figure that they have invented whom the reader have to deduct that he is the personage to whom God speak.

would you consider those inventor/s of abstract figure/s
were they Muslims
were they Quran preachers
were they warlords and are NON-ISLAMIC exemplores of that time ??

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Altara
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Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9310 - June 06, 2020, 10:19 AM

Quote
WAS THERE ANY REAL PERSON WHO HAD NAME /Added to his name the word MUHAMMAD....... who is connected Quran verses and earliest times of Islam?

Nope.

Quote
So you think Quran had multiple authors..

It is technically feasible but I do not see an individual composition. Plus, I see few later additions to arrange the texts, end of sura for example, by people who had no relation of any sort with the genuine authors.

Quote
would you consider those inventor/s of abstract figure/s
were they Muslims
were they Quran preachers
were they warlords and are NON-ISLAMIC exemplores of that time ??

You will read it.
- yeezevee
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Reply #9311 - June 06, 2020, 11:16 AM

dammit I failed .............. miserably failed............... incapable of cornering you dear Altara......
Quote from: Altara on June 06, 2020, 10:19 AM
Nope.

I agree with you large amount text.. I mean out of those 6300 verses of the book more than 90% of the verses are NOT connected to be connected to the word "Muhammad" .. but those verses that were added at later times must be relevant to a person whose name or added name or middle name was indeed Muhammad....

Am I wrong there??
Quote
It is technically feasible but I do not see an individual composition. Plus, I see few later additions to arrange the texts, end of sura for example, by people who had no relation of any sort with the genuine authors.

that is extremely important point., you mean end of every surah?? well then that stylometric analysis of Quran could may take us to some form of original manuscripts .. that is good project., here the question to you ..

Give me examples of verses that you think are added at later times.. and do not give this answer i read below..
Quote
You will read it.

when.. when dear Altara..

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Altara
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Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9312 - June 06, 2020, 01:07 PM

Quote
dammit I failed .............. miserably failed............... incapable of cornering you dear Alatar......

I've changed name!!!

Quote
but those verses that were added at later times must be relevant to a person whose name or added name or middle name was indeed Muhammad....

(For me...) Nope. The name was necessary one way or another at the beginning.
Quote
Am I wrong there??

(For me...) Yes.
Quote
that is extremely important point., you mean end of every surah?? well then that stylometric analysis of Quran could may take us to some form of original manuscripts .. that is good project., here the question to you ..

Not all but mainly the first half of the corpus I take this from an article of Dye (in French) "Réflexions méthodologiques sur la ‘Rhétorique coranique’ in Controverses sur les écritures canoniques de l’islam [/i](D. De Smet et Md. A. Amir-Moezzi, éds., Paris, Cerf, 2014),
I think it's convincing.
Quote
Give me examples of verses that you think are added at later times..

I would suggest that you ask the paper to Dye in Academia. And DeepL is your friend to translate it if you get it. It's rather a technical stuff.
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Reply #9313 - June 06, 2020, 02:19 PM

Quote from: Altara on June 06, 2020, 01:07 PM
~~I've changed name!!!~~

common forgive the type errors...

Quote
(For me...) 1). Nope. The name was necessary one way or another at the beginning.(For me...)

2). Yes.Not all but mainly the first half of the corpus I take this from an article of Dye (in French) "Réflexions méthodologiques sur la ‘Rhétorique coranique’ in Controverses sur les écritures canoniques de l’islam [/i](D. De Smet et Md. A. Amir-Moezzi, éds., Paris, Cerf, 2014),

I think it's convincing.I would suggest that you ask the paper to Dye in Academia. And DeepL is your friend to translate it if you get it. It's rather a technical stuff.

well Hope Deep will help me out.... Thank you

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- moi
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Reply #9314 - June 06, 2020, 05:41 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on June 05, 2020, 08:54 PM
well i tried that long time ago .. but I gave up.. dear moi ., I guess all theses posts are for me right?

and where did you get this from
Is it from some NT book??

thank you

with best wishes
yeezevee

:-) that is the Nicene Creed, the agreed statement of Christian faith except in heretical groups

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
- moi
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Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9315 - June 06, 2020, 05:43 PM

The Nicene Creed is very carefully written to be vague about what one god means, does god have parts?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
- Altara
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Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9316 - June 06, 2020, 06:41 PM

Quote
Give me examples of verses that you think are added at later times..

I would suggest that you ask the paper to Dye in Academia. And DeepL is your friend to translate it if you get it. It's rather a technical stuff. The part which will interest you starts p.163.
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Reply #9317 - June 07, 2020, 09:44 AM

Quote from: Altara on June 06, 2020, 06:41 PM
I would suggest that you ask the paper to Dye in Academia. And DeepL is your friend to translate it if you get it. It's rather a technical stuff. The part which will interest you starts p.163.

well I got the whole book and struggling with pdf translation .. but I wish some one could through just the verse numbers on the board that Dye thinks were added in to Quran.. from that article .

anyway what do you think of these Surah revelation order of the present book vs order in Quran manuscripts.. Is it same? or is it jumbled up when manuscripts became book? This forgetting that Mecca /Madinah revelation business ... I am sure you know that hypothesis of revelation/compilation order but otherwise please click the link... https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.msg445330#msg445330

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- yeezevee
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Reply #9318 - June 07, 2020, 09:52 AM

Quote from: moi on June 06, 2020, 05:41 PM
:-) that is the Nicene Creed, the agreed statement of Christian faith except in heretical groups

thanks moi...

did they have their own book apart from OT/NT books like Mormon book? or just that poem?? please see this link

https://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/nicene.htm

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Altara
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Reply #9319 - June 07, 2020, 11:37 AM

Quote from: yeezevee on June 07, 2020, 09:44 AM
well I got the whole book and struggling with pdf translation ..

Good. Get the DeepL application, it's free. Keep it up!

Quote
but I wish some one could through just the verse numbers on the board that Dye thinks were added in to Quran.. from that article .

All is in the article from p.163.

Quote
anyway what do you think of these Surah revelation order of the present book vs order in Quran manuscripts.. Is it same? or is it jumbled up when manuscripts became book?

I agree with Dye, the current order is artificial.
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Reply #9320 - June 07, 2020, 12:13 PM

Digging up forgotten kingdoms, Saudis unearth ancient identity

https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2020/0601/Digging-up-forgotten-kingdoms-Saudis-unearth-ancient-identity

Which side are you on?
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Reply #9321 - June 07, 2020, 12:27 PM

Thread: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1263536935089451009.html
Quote
In 1978 John Wansborough published his Sectarian Milieu, arguing that most of Quranic material characterise a text that crystallised over 2 centuries, and largely outside confines of Arabia. To date Fred Donner has offered perhaps the best response to Wansborough. Thread

Which side are you on?
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Reply #9322 - June 07, 2020, 01:54 PM

I consider that the text is more ancient than the date commonly admitted.
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Reply #9323 - June 07, 2020, 02:39 PM

What would you say is the earliest it could date from?

Which side are you on?
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Reply #9324 - June 07, 2020, 04:49 PM

Peter Webb - Ethnicity, Power and Umayyad Society: The Rise and Fall of the People of Ma'add

https://www.academia.edu/36053739/Ethnicity_Power_and_Umayyad_Society_The_Rise_and_Fall_of_the_People_of_Maadd

Which side are you on?
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Reply #9325 - June 07, 2020, 05:06 PM

Quote from: zeca on June 07, 2020, 02:39 PM
What would you say is the earliest it could date from?

550-580-600
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Reply #9326 - June 07, 2020, 05:30 PM

Why the different dates? Are they for different parts or layers of the text?

Which side are you on?
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Reply #9327 - June 07, 2020, 05:49 PM

Quote from: Altara on June 07, 2020, 05:06 PM
550-580-600

those dates seems to fall under the line of classical Prophet of Islam..

Quote
571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant. Invasion of Makkah by Abraha the Viceroy of Yemen, his retreat.
577: The Holy Prophet visits Madina with his mother. Death of his mother.
583: The Holy Prophe meeting with the monk Bahira at Bisra who foretells of his prophethood.
595: The Holy Prophet marries Hadrat Khadija. Seventh century
610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
632: Death of the Holy Prophet

https://ulb.academia.edu/GuillaumeDye

Quote
Altara: I would suggest that you ask the paper to Dye in Academia. And DeepL is your friend to translate it if you get it. It's rather a technical stuff. The part which will interest you starts p.163.

Page 163??

Quote
Guillaume Dye
Réflexions méthodologiques sur la « rhétorique coranique »
Il y a près de quarante ans, John Wansbrough notait, d..........................
Coran avec les outils de la critique biblique repose davantage sur des postulats que sur des faits
solidement étayés..

that is the paper right?? in that book pdf file it says page 68., anyway this DeepL is not doing whole book.. I guess i need to split the pdf fie..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Altara
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Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9328 - June 07, 2020, 06:19 PM

Quote from: zeca on June 07, 2020, 05:30 PM
Why the different dates? Are they for different parts or layers of the text?

Nope, for the starting of the redaction ; different possible dates, but 600 is a late date .
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Reply #9329 - June 07, 2020, 06:22 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on June 07, 2020, 05:49 PM

I guess i need to split the pdf fie..

Yes. Get to the inner title : Le tissage du texte coranique fin et début des sourates
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Topic: Qur'anic studies today

moi

Reply #9300 - June 05, 2020, 04:11 PM

Altara

Reply #9301 - June 05, 2020, 04:47 PM

moi

Reply #9302 - June 05, 2020, 05:13 PM

Asbjoern1958

Reply #9303 - June 05, 2020, 05:27 PM

Asbjoern1958

Reply #9304 - June 05, 2020, 05:29 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9305 - June 05, 2020, 08:41 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9306 - June 05, 2020, 08:54 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9307 - June 05, 2020, 08:59 PM

Altara

Reply #9308 - June 05, 2020, 11:30 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9309 - June 06, 2020, 09:09 AM

Altara

Reply #9310 - June 06, 2020, 10:19 AM

yeezevee

Reply #9311 - June 06, 2020, 11:16 AM

Altara

Reply #9312 - June 06, 2020, 01:07 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9313 - June 06, 2020, 02:19 PM

moi

Reply #9314 - June 06, 2020, 05:41 PM

moi

Reply #9315 - June 06, 2020, 05:43 PM

Altara

Reply #9316 - June 06, 2020, 06:41 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9317 - June 07, 2020, 09:44 AM

yeezevee

Reply #9318 - June 07, 2020, 09:52 AM

Altara

Reply #9319 - June 07, 2020, 11:37 AM

zeca

Reply #9320 - June 07, 2020, 12:13 PM

zeca

Reply #9321 - June 07, 2020, 12:27 PM

Altara

Reply #9322 - June 07, 2020, 01:54 PM

zeca

Reply #9323 - June 07, 2020, 02:39 PM

zeca

Reply #9324 - June 07, 2020, 04:49 PM

Altara

Reply #9325 - June 07, 2020, 05:06 PM

zeca

Reply #9326 - June 07, 2020, 05:30 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9327 - June 07, 2020, 05:49 PM

Altara

Reply #9328 - June 07, 2020, 06:19 PM

Altara

Reply #9329 - June 07, 2020, 06:22 PM

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