Qur'anic studies today

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- Altara
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Reply #9480 - July 18, 2020, 12:06 AM

Quote
why not whole surah.. All 60 verses..

Because they didn't read the whole thing.
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Reply #9481 - July 18, 2020, 11:54 AM

Quote from: Altara on July 18, 2020, 12:06 AM
Because they didn't read the whole thing.

well Even Academics who are inquiring origins of Quran and origins of Islam have selective amnesia ... either they do not read it or read it and forget it..

Intellectual dishonesty in this field is stunning .. these guys are as good as mullahs and imams of Islam ... the other serious problem is political interference and threats ... whole field needs revamping and re-investigation...

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Reply #9482 - July 18, 2020, 12:13 PM

hello mundi .. how are you.. long time no posts ...

Help me out on that Roman verse .. surah-30 verse-2... is it there in original manuscripts... the link you gave to look for is buried in the folder and I am lazy to search for it..

with best wishes
yeezevee

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Reply #9483 - July 18, 2020, 08:37 PM

Hi Yeez,

Chester Beaty 1615I is very old:
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/30/vers/2?handschrift=377

The 5 last lines are Surah 30. I see that some verse separators are missing. Maybe you can check if there is something noticeable in this manuscript.

Or 2165 is alos very old and has the verses, but no image is provided in corpus coranicum.
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Reply #9484 - July 19, 2020, 08:09 AM

Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1284516859971280896
Quote
The consonantal dotting of the Arabic script is something about which quite a bit of confusion exists, from its origins, application in manuscripts, quranic or otherwise and finally anachronistic imposition of modern norms onto medieval manuscripts, a thread on Arabic dotting.

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Reply #9485 - July 19, 2020, 08:22 AM

Quote from: mundi on July 18, 2020, 08:37 PM
Hi Yeez,

Chester Beaty 1615I is very old:
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/30/vers/2?handschrift=377

The 5 last lines are Surah 30. I see that some verse separators are missing. Maybe you can check if there is something noticeable in this manuscript.

Or 2165 is alos very old and has the verses, but no image is provided in corpus coranicum.

thank you for the link dear mundi... as far as those highlighted words are concerned .. we have to work with what we have as evidence and make some sort of progress ,, but that page image is interesting

at the link you gave they provided a magnifying glass for the cursor to look at that above image ., that above image in that magnifying glass looks as if it is erased/smeared and over written.... do you see same thing

or are my eyes deceiving me ??

with best wishes
yeezevee

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Reply #9486 - July 19, 2020, 09:46 AM

Quote
It is often suggested that Uthman's text was undotted on purpose to allow different readings.

Who said that?

Quote
Not all dotting practices seem to stem from the same time, and certain practices shift over time. Let's look at the consonantal dotting:

Time and people.

Quote
First, dotting was clearly invented to disambiguate letters that are otherwise homographous.

Invented or copied from elsewhere?
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Reply #9487 - July 19, 2020, 01:24 PM

Quote from: zeca on July 19, 2020, 08:09 AM
Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1284516859971280896

damn reading through these twitteronians is ...like going through the mud .. dragging your brain through mud..

anyway from the above link .. this caught my eye.. Khawar Khan@khawar_achakzai who says

Quote
After nearly a year of searching, received this 18 volume set of Syed Qutb’s fizilalulQuran’s English translation.

Now I am interested in that Islamophile Quran translation and how he reads Quran., Damn 18 volumes of Quran translation??? .. Quran is just a book of some 6300 verses that to some 40% of it is repetition.. Glad to see this Mr. Sayyid Qutb appears to all on web at

https://tafsirzilal.wordpress.com/2012/06/05/english-language/

hope that is from that The Philosopher ......... that Egyptian.... Mr. Sayyid Qutb (1906-1966)..

That looks and those Mustache are from familiar face

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=isLNLpxpndA

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I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
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Reply #9488 - July 20, 2020, 03:10 PM

Quote from: mundi on July 18, 2020, 08:37 PM
Hi Yeez,

Chester Beaty 1615I is very old:
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/30/vers/2?handschrift=377

..........................

so on that mundi link of Quran Manuscripts from Dublin, Chester Beatty Library.. that Corpus Coranicum_1615 has some 32 folios in it..

here is first one and its image..

and that last one No32 or folio 32V.. is this one..

I wonder any one of you guys see that these folios appears to be over written .. please look at original links..

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the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #9489 - July 20, 2020, 03:21 PM

interesting images from khanacademy.org ....

https://www.khanacademy.org/humanities/ap-art-history/west-and-central-asia-apahh/west-asia/a/folio-from-a-quran

Qu'ran fragment, in Arabic, before 911, vellum, MS M. 712, fols 19v-20r, 23 x 32 cm, possibly Iraq (The Morgan Library and Museum, New York)

Qur'an fragment (detail), in Arabic, before 911, vellum, MS M.712, fols. 19v–20r, 23 x 32 cm, possibly Iraq (The Morgan Library and Museum, New York)

well they are all from that The Morgan Library of US of A ., better go to that link..

https://www.themorgan.org/collection/treasures-of-islamic-manuscript-painting

THE UNIQUE IBN AL-BAWWAB MANUSCRIPT IN THE CHESTER BEATTY LIBRARY BY D. S. RICE

that pdf file contains 61 pages of manuscript translated in to English by D. S. RICE in 1955

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Reply #9490 - July 20, 2020, 03:52 PM

Another Question to you guys who are active/reading this folder apart from those early Quran manuscripts question in the above post., And this is about Surah_" Luqman"., I was reading Quran chapter by chapter................... verse by verse ........... at https://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=16106.0

So this Surah_31 in the book((or Surah_57 in revelation order)) .. That name " Luqman" appears and it is also name of the surah.. on that surah I wrote
Quote from: yeezevee on July 18, 2020, 01:49 PM
So we are dealing with Surah_" Luqman" .....
...................

So who is "Luqman" and what is his story?? ..... for that we need to read other Islamic religious books/stories.. ....

And I wonder now .. dear Altara and others...

What has been published by Academics on that surah " Luqman" and the story of " Luqman"...

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #9491 - July 20, 2020, 07:00 PM

Chester Beatty I:

Yeez, you have to be careful not to take the text from the verso as an erased subtext. Retracing of a damaged text is also found regularly in these old manuscripts.

My Arabic is not good enough to be able to evaluate other irregularities.
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Reply #9492 - July 20, 2020, 07:48 PM

Quote from: mundi on July 20, 2020, 07:00 PM
Chester Beatty I:

Yeez, you have to be careful not to take the text from the verso as an erased subtext. Retracing of a damaged text is also found regularly in these old manuscripts.

My Arabic is not good enough to be able to evaluate other irregularities.

I agree with you but Retracing text from a damaged manuscript is different from over writing on its original manuscripts .....

anyway why would anyone like to write on top original ones even if they are not in a good shape?? So you said here

Quote from: mundi on July 18, 2020, 08:37 PM
Hi Yeez,

Chester Beaty 1615I is very old:
https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/30/vers/2?handschrift=377

........................

How old is that Chester Beaty 1615I folios?? .. and , mundi what are those letters "r"., "v" represents next to those folio numbers??

they numbered like 1r., 1v., 2r, 2v...... all the way to 32r.. 32v...,

So at the link you gave on "Chester Beaty 1615I" there are 64 folios .. are they not one of oldest Quran manuscripts?? and do you or do you not see over writing on those manuscript pages??

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Reply #9493 - July 21, 2020, 01:23 PM

Chester Beaty I

The youngest pages were dated with 95% confidence between 610-660. Some pages were even older, but there is some doubt about the reliability...

Retracing is often seen in these old manuscripts. But then it is done in a manuscript still in good shape, and to continue its use?

r for recto, v for verso
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Reply #9494 - July 21, 2020, 01:37 PM

thank you for this response dear mundi
Quote from: mundi on July 21, 2020, 01:23 PM
Chester Beaty I

The youngest pages were dated with 95% confidence between 610-660. Some pages were even older, but there is some doubt about the reliability...

what does youngest page means? do they corresponds to youngest surah and older ones for oldest surah??..... and and..610-660 is already 50 years error bar

Quote
Retracing is often seen in these old manuscripts. But then it is done in a manuscript still in good shape, and to continue its use?

r for recto, v for verso

Oh... it was written on some sort of paper and on both sides?? Hmm someday I need to visit that library

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #9495 - July 21, 2020, 05:02 PM

Yeez,

Yes, some of the traces you see are the letter marks of the other side. The parchment has a certain transparency.
The 50 years time span is a probability distribution. There is a 95 % chance the age is between 610 and 660. I would need to look at it in detail, but probably about 50% chance it is earlier than 640. You can't really talk about error here.

Which pages are earlier can't be related to the Surah number. Just remember it is very early.
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Reply #9496 - July 21, 2020, 06:23 PM

hi mundi I am always glad to read your response
Quote from: mundi on July 21, 2020, 05:02 PM
Yeez,

Yes, some of the traces you see are the letter marks of the other side. The parchment has a certain transparency.
The 50 years time span is a probability distribution. There is a 95 % chance the age is between 610 and 660. I would need to look at it in detail, but probably about 50% chance it is earlier than 640. You can't really talk about error here.

Well I was talking about(THEIR .....whoever worked on dating that folio material ) error bars in that C13 technique they may have used for dating the Skin material of those 64 foios .. .. are they animal skins that they wrote Quran on??

Quote
Which pages are earlier can't be related to the Surah number. Just remember it is very early.

that is interesting.. So assuming they are early Manuscripts somewhere between 610-650-690 whatever ..

So let us take this link of that library on Quran

https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/28/vers/6/handschrift/377 .... Page 1r folio

to page 32 v folio ... https://corpuscoranicum.de/handschriften/index/sure/48/vers/13/handschrift/377 ..

So looking at them sequentially .. are those folios have same sequence as present Quran book in terms Surah names and numbers??

forgive me asking so many dumb question here............

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I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
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Reply #9497 - July 21, 2020, 07:22 PM

Chester BeatyI:

No, it is extremely unlikely that it would be from 690.
Indeed it is the skin that is dated. But it is assumed there is no significant time lag btw the production of the parchment and the writing.

I dont know about the Surah order for Chest BeatyI. Several of the very early manuscripts have a slightly different order, I thought Chester BeatyI was not amongst them.
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Reply #9498 - July 21, 2020, 07:32 PM

Quote from: mundi on July 21, 2020, 07:22 PM
Chester BeatyI:

No, it is extremely unlikely that it would be from 690.

Oh OK how about year 610??... 610 +or - 5 years changes whole Islam.,....

Quote
Indeed it is the skin that is dated. But it is assumed there is no significant time lag btw the production of the parchment and the writing.

Hmm now you are giving ideas to me dating these ancient manuscripts .. which is very important spectroscopic investigation ., Your point of Skin and Ink may have different dates gives another clues on these manuscripts

Quote
I dont know about the Surah order for Chest BeatyI. Several of the very early manuscripts have a slightly different order, I thought Chester BeatyI was not amongst them.

what do you mean several early manuscripts?? earlier than Chester BeatyI?? did any one publish anything on that surah order from these manuscripts?

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I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
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Reply #9499 - July 21, 2020, 07:45 PM

Yeez,

When you have a carbondating of 95 % probability for 610-660, that means there is only a 2.5% probability that the manuscript is earlier than 610.

When I mention "early manuscripts", I mean those manuscripts that have quite a good probability to be earlier than 650.
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Reply #9500 - July 22, 2020, 07:02 AM

Yeez,

Here is the video about the Chester Beaaty I manuscript: https://t.co/ZbxeJQAquG?amp=1
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Reply #9501 - July 22, 2020, 12:42 PM

Quote from: mundi on July 21, 2020, 07:45 PM
Yeez,

Quote
When you have a carbondating of 95 % probability for 610-660, that means there is only a 2.5% probability that the manuscript is earlier than 610.

When I mention "early manuscripts", I mean those manuscripts that have quite a good probability to be earlier than 650.

.interesting way of putting carbon dating probabilities ..

let me repeat what you said with some questions., So you think

1). there is a 95% of probability that all those 64 folios( 32 in both sides) had been printed on those folios between 610 and 650....

2). the probability is less than 2.5% they to be earlier than 650..,

3). I guess same thing.. 2.5 to say 0.05% probability they being printed/written after the year 690.. (CAN I ASSUME THAT??)

please correct me if i misunderstood your points...

Now .. let us go to years...... say between 615 and 630............. what probability would the authors propose that they were published before the year 630 and after the year 615??

Quote from: mundi on July 22, 2020, 07:02 AM
Yeez,

Here is the video about the Chester Beaaty I manuscript: https://t.co/ZbxeJQAquG?amp=1

. that looks like an mp4 file .. do you have any PDF files that have experimental protocols of dating manuscripts .. I have fair amount of background in that area ... in fact there is folder in this forum on that subject .. anyway I will watch it.. it appears to be very useful lecture... DO YOU KNOW THAT GUY??

thanks again dear mundi.. it is a very important subject..

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
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Reply #9502 - July 22, 2020, 02:08 PM

Yeez,

the 610-660 date is only for the analyzed sample. It doesnt say anything about the other samples or pages.
Carbondating gives a statistical normal distribution which is then transposed against a calibration curve. 95 % probability means that the tails before and after each contain a rest probability of 2.5 %.

If you are at home in this type of things, you will quickly understand what Jocham is talking about. He is from Corpus Coranicum in Berlin.
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Reply #9503 - July 23, 2020, 09:21 PM

Quote from: mundi on July 22, 2020, 02:08 PM
Yeez,

the 610-660 date is only for the analyzed sample. It doesnt say anything about the other samples or pages.
Carbondating gives a statistical normal distribution which is then transposed against a calibration curve. 95 % probability means that the tails before and after each contain a rest probability of 2.5 %.

mundi I understand statistical probabilities of an experimental results.. I am in the field for a long time in Physics?chemistry/Biology... what I needed is THE PUBLICATION ON EXACTLY WHAT THEY DID USING C-14 experiments either on the ink they wrote folios with or on those folio.. or on both materials..

Quote
If you are at home in this type of things, you will quickly understand what Jocham is talking about. He is from Corpus Coranicum in Berlin.

Well I watched .. It is useful but I am looking for his publications.. hope I will get them soon...

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Reply #9504 - July 24, 2020, 07:05 AM

Yeez,

General info on carbondating is something you easily fund on the internet of course. But I guess you are looking for more specific work on the Quran. This is one of the latest:

https://www.academia.edu/40203945/Youssef-Grob_Eva_Mira_Radiocarbon_14C_dating_of_Early_Islamic_documents_background_and_prospects
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Reply #9505 - July 24, 2020, 11:40 AM

Quote from: mundi on July 24, 2020, 07:05 AM
Yeez,

General info on carbondating is something you easily fund on the internet of course. But I guess you are looking for more specific work on the Quran. This is one of the latest:

Youssef-Grob, Eva Mira, Radiocarbon (14C) dating of Early Islamic documents: background and prospects in: Kaplony, A. / Marx, M. (eds.): Qurʾān Quotations preserved on papyrus documents, 7th-10th centuries: and the problem of carbon dating early Qurans, Leiden 2019, 2019Eva Mira Youssef-Grob
E. Youssef-Grob

I just scanned few pages of that review .. that is an important publication dear mundi..... thank you.. one must realize here the subject is still open ofr research and exploration.. it is still not confirmed.. and i need to read through their experimental procedures..

thanks again .. please keep me informed on such publications on radio carbon dating...or other methods .. whether it is Quran.. bible.. or any other ancient materials ..that deals with faiths..

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #9506 - July 24, 2020, 08:39 PM

Podcast: https://anchor.fm/bottled-petrichor/episodes/E11-The-Quran-and-its-Context-with-Dr--Emran-El-Badawi-egrom2
Quote
The Qur'an and its Context with Dr. Emran El Badawi

I'm pleased to have on Dr. Emran El-Badawi, Associate Professor at the University of Houston and the founding executive director of the International Qur'anic Studies Association (IQSA). We discuss various theories of the origins of the Qurʼān, the Qurʼān and the Aramaic gospel traditions (which is also the title of his book), Ephrem the Syrian's homilies, the Qurʼān in conversation with Late Antiquity, approaching the Qurʼān as believing historians, and more!

Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/gypsy_heart6/status/1286564604366270464

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Reply #9507 - July 26, 2020, 08:07 AM

"the conclusion that it is by now certain that Qur’an is a product of 7th century Hijaz."

Lol.
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Reply #9508 - July 26, 2020, 10:13 AM

Quote from: Altara on July 26, 2020, 08:07 AM
"the conclusion that it is by now certain that Qur’an is a product of 7th century Hijaz."

Lol.

That I will read it as .....

"the conclusion is., that it is by now certain that much of the Qur’an is a product of 7th century Abrahamc faith stories that were floating around Hijaz." ..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
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Reply #9509 - July 26, 2020, 10:20 AM

Quote from: Altara on July 26, 2020, 08:07 AM
"the conclusion that it is by now certain that Qur’an is a product of 7th century Hijaz."

Lol.

I suppose it’s easy to prove something to your own satisfaction that you know is true to begin with.

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