Qur'anic studies today

Previous page 1 ... 327 328 329330 331 ... 370 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
- Altara
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9840 - September 29, 2020, 06:06 PM

Quote
In turn, in Chapter 2, ‘Early Islam as a Messianic Movement: A Non-Issue?’,
José Costa reminds us that, while the Qur’ān refers to Jesus as al-masīḥ, the
‘Messiah’, it never explains the meaning of the term. Besides – he goes on to
say – if one leaves aside the ambiguous passages dealing with al-masīḥ, then
the Messiah and messianism do not appear in the Qur’ān

José Costa is a great scholar. Hope he will post this article in academia. And he is right: no messianism in the Quran. Gallez is obliged to suggest scribal interventions, etc.
- zeca
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9841 - September 29, 2020, 09:09 PM

Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/azforeman/status/1310954437507198978
Quote
I don’t know who needs to hear this but yes the bulk of Jāhilī poetry really is Pre-Islamic. It really does go back one way or another to those generations just before Islam.

Interpolated, recombined and possibly selectively remembered? Sure.

Some material has probably fallen out, and some other stuff has clearly gotten sutured in. But there is zero reason to think there was any kind of large scale forgery.

The poems preserve material that later town-dwellers simply could never have forged. There are references to the realia of desert life (names of plants, for example) which the commentators scarcely understood but which survive in Arabian Bedouin usage today.

Quote
The Qaṣīda (and in fact the metrical system known in Islamic times as عروض) does not appear to be a form indigenous to Arabic. It appears to have been "imported" from South Arabia.

Quote
The few inscriptional poetic texts from North Arabia that we have actually look more like the Qur'an in form than anything else.

The En Avdat inscription, for example, includes lines of Aramaic followed by a brief poetic text in Arabic. And the structural of the Arabic passage is quite Qur'an-like. More Qur'anic than anything.

Which side are you on?
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9842 - September 30, 2020, 03:03 PM

Quote from: zeca on September 29, 2020, 09:09 PM
Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/azforeman/status/1310954437507198978

"I don’t know who needs to hear this but yes the bulk of Jāhilī poetry really is Pre-Islamic. It really does go back one way or another to those generations just before Islam."... A.Z. Foreman

Quote
https://mobile.twitter.com/azforeman
http://poemsintranslation.blogspot.com/p/my-poetry-translations.html

I wonder about that "Pre-Islamic Jāhillya poetry " .. when and what date and by whom that "Pre-Islamic Jāhillya poetry " was published?? was it before Quran manuscripts or after those Sana Manuscripts?? because sonnets, songs, poems and poetry is an important part of Quarn., Infact other name for Quran is indeed "Recitation of Poetry" in the name of Allah by Allah for Allah..

well let me add Quran verses here on that Poem/poetry..
Quote
Quote
Surah Al-Anbiyaa....

4.   He said: My Lord knows what is spoken in the heaven and the earth, and He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

5.   Nay! say they: Medleys of dreams; nay! he has forged it; nay! he is a poet; so let him bring to us a sign as the former (prophets) were sent (with).

6.   There did not believe before them any town which We destroyed, will they then believe?

7.   And We did not send before you any but men to whom We sent revelation, so ask the followers of the reminder if you do not

Quote
Surah...Ash-Shu'araa

220.   Surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing.

221.   Shall I inform you (of him) upon whom the Shaitans descend?

222.   They descend upon every lying, sinful one,

223.   They incline their ears, and most of them are liars.

224.   And as to the poets, those who go astray follow them
.
225.   Do you not see that they wander about bewildered in every valley?

226.   And that they say that which they do not do,

227.   Except those who believe and do good and remember Allah much, and defend themselves after they are oppressed; and they who act unjustly shall know to what final place of turning they shall turn back.

Quote
Surah.....Yaseen

65. On that day We will set a seal upon their mouths, and their hands shall speak to Us, and their feet shall bear witness of what they earned.

66.   And if We please We would certainly put out their eyes, then they would run about groping for the way, but how should they see?

67.   And if We please We would surely transform them in their place, then they would not be able to go on, nor will they return.

68.   And whomsoever We cause to live long, We reduce (him) to an abject state in constitution; do they not then understand?

69.   And We have not taught him poetry, nor is it meet for him; it is nothing but a reminder and a plain Quran,

70.   That it may warn him who would have life, and (that) the word may prove true against the unbelievers.

71.   Do they not see that We have created cattle for them, out of what Our hands have wrought, so they are their masters?

72.   And We have subjected them to them, so some of them they have to ride upon, and some of them they eat.

73.   And therein they have advantages and drinks; will they not then be grateful?

74.   And they have taken gods besides Allah that they may be helped.

Quote
. Surah....As-Saaffaat

34.   Surely thus do We deal with the guilty.

35.   Surely they used to behave proudly when it was said to them: There is no god but Allah;

36.   And to say: What! shall we indeed give up our gods for the sake of a mad poet?

37.   Nay: he has come with the truth and verified the apostles.

38.   Most surely you will taste the painful punishment.

39.   And you shall not be rewarded except (for) what you did.

Quote
Surah ...At-Tur,

28.   Surely we called upon Him before: Surely He is the Benign, the Merciful.

29.   Therefore continue to remind, for by the grace of your Lord, you are not a soothsayer, or a madman.

30.   Or do they say: A poet, we wait for him the evil accidents of time.

31.   Say: Wait, for surely I too with you am of those who wait.

32.   Nay! do their understandings bid them this? Or are they an inordinate people?

33.   Or do they say: He has forged it. Nay! they do not believe.

34.   Then let them bring an announcement like it if they are truthful

Quote
Surah Al-Haaqqa...

38.   But nay! I swear by that which you see,

39.   And that which you do not see.

40.   Most surely, it is the Word brought by an honored Apostle,

41.   And it is not the word of a poet; little is it that you believe;

42.   Nor the word of a soothsayer; little is it that you mind.

43.   It is a revelation from the Lord of the worlds.

44.   And if he had fabricated against Us some of the sayings,

45.   We would certainly have seized him by the right hand,

46.   Then We would certainly have cut off his aorta.

47.   And not one of you could have withheld Us from him.

Yap.. Glad to read Quran., Well it is interesting to note all those verses that have Poets/poetry word in Quan comes from early revelations.... so-called Meccan surahs.

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9843 - October 12, 2020, 09:20 AM

https://mobile.twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1048068350184775682?s=20

Quote
Ahmad Al-Jallad@Safaitic
·
12h< Part 6 – Love transforms, ʾIsāf and Nāʾilah: The archaeology of the Book of Idols>: Ibn Al-Kalbī relates to us a tale of two lovers set in ancient times. ʾIsāf, a man of the Gurhum tribe, was in love with Nāʾilah in the land of Yemen. The two met on pilgrimage to Mecca.

well I read that with this image

that is interesting The two met on pilgrimage to Mecca .. I wonder what year did those two met on pilgrimage to Mecca??

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- zeca
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9844 - November 16, 2020, 12:20 AM

Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1327965103535349760
Quote
Read this from @Safaitic w/my students on Friday. Key insights (including discussion of epitaph of Raqōš bint ʿabd manōtō - JSNab 17, 267CE) on degree of Aramaic-Arabic bi-lingualism among Nabateans. + insights on spread of Greek in late antique Arabia.

I'm not going to say that Luxenberg is redeemed. Case-by-case study shows that most of his arguments are wrong. Also, I believe that bi-lingualism does not = Mischsprache but for those interested in the origins of Islam awareness of Aramaic (& spread of Chr among Arabs) is impor.

In this article @Safaitic also describes the few hymns/poems we have in pre-Islamic epigraphy which show similar literary qualities to certain Suras (although they are much earlier than the Qur'an).

If I could start again my formation in early Islamic/Qur'anic Studies I might begin with studying Ancient South/North Arabian and the late antique Near East. Scholars forming new generations of students should rethink traditional models.

Which side are you on?
- Asbjoern1958
- Member
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9845 - November 17, 2020, 07:58 AM

Since it has been impossible to link the rasm in early Qurans to a certain dialect, Mark Durie argues for the Quran was developed directly from the Arabic of the Nabataeans.
"Previous research into the origins of the dialect of Arabic which provided the standard for the Qurʾānic consonantal text has thrown up two puzzles: a puzzle from above, and a puzzle from below. The puzzle from above is that the Muslim philologists who searched earnestly for the Qurʾānic dialect were unable to identify any of the dialects known to them as the source of Qurʾānic Arabic. The puzzle from below is why, among the many thousands of pre-Qurʾānic ancient Arabic inscriptions, spread over a vast region, there are so few inscriptions which could reflect a precursor to Qurʾānic Arabic. The solution to both puzzles, it is argued, is that Qurʾānic Arabic, as reflected in its rasm, or consonantal skeleton, developed directly from the Arabic of the Nabataeans. The solution to the puzzle from below is that the Nabataeans left many inscriptions, but in their preferred written language, Aramaic, not their mother tongue Arabic. The solution to the puzzle from above is that the Muslim philologists were looking for a Bedouin source for the Qurʾānic text, but Nabataean Arabic’s linguistic legacy was to be found in dialects spoken by peasants in the Southern Levant. Recent research by Al-Jallad has documented pre-conquest Southern Levantine Arabic dialects in the Nabataean direct sphere of influence. These findings confirm the hypothesis that the Nabataean Arabic supplied the linguistic variety of the Qur’an."
https://www.academia.edu/37743814/On_the_Origin_of_Qur%CA%BE%C4%81nic_Arabic?email_work_card=view-paper
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9846 - November 20, 2020, 10:37 AM

Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on November 17, 2020, 07:58 AM
These findings confirm the hypothesis that the Nabataean Arabic supplied the linguistic variety of the Qur’an."

https://www.academia.edu/37743814/On_the_Origin_of_Qur%CA%BE%C4%81nic_Arabic?email_work_card=view-paper

hellooo Asbjoern1958 ...glad to read that publication.... that Nabataean Arabic linguistic variety may be present in the book Quran but that does not mean Quran was written a Nabataean guy/guys of 7th/8th century .. do you agree with that??

Well that publication also gives indirect support to the hypothesis of Altara song .. of Mecca-Medina-Muhammad - zam,..zam.... present Islam is full of zam zam well water

I hope Altara doing well, busy and slugging away at his book .. I miss reading his posts and thoughts on origins of Islam

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Asbjoern1958
- Member
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9847 - November 20, 2020, 03:44 PM

Thanks for your reply yeezevee. I have no idea whether the Quran was develloped directly from Nabataean Arabic or not. But if we follow Fred Donner's hypothesis that the Quran is a composite of texts from different groups on the Arabic peninsula. These texts must have been in different dialects, but then someone collected them and "translated" it all into the Arabic we find in the Quran?
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9848 - November 29, 2020, 10:47 AM

Hi Asbjoern1958 glad to see your response but I wish you could have added some links to the work of Fred Donner's hypothesis
Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on November 20, 2020, 03:44 PM
Thanks for your reply yeezevee. I have no idea whether the Quran was develloped directly from Nabataean Arabic or not.

well the language of present present Quan is JUST A LANGUAGE DEVOLOPMENT PROCESS .. it is just like any other language development and its script development ., ASSUMING THE PRESENT QURAN IS THE FIRST BOOK THAT WAS COMPILED FROM DIFFERENT MANUSCRIPTS FROM DIFFERENT AUTHORS THAT WERE WRITTEN FOR THE FIRST TIME .. ((INCIDENTLY I DOUBT THAT )) these compiler/s of the present book ., as a book put together in a very confused manner ., ......................making up some name to these surahs and arbitrarily cutting them where ever which ever is the way those compilers of the book liked............... some 4 verses chapter., some 10 verse chapter and some chapters with 200 verses ............ and that too in a confused surah order .. so called early Meccan surahs being at the end and later Medinan surahs in the beginning ...........

Whole thing as a book is a big mess., but individual chapters/surahs have certainly wonderful rhyming Arabic songs and sonnets coupled to the early Abrahamic stories in some sort of dialogue/drama fashion between Allah/messenger/preacher telling stories to followers as well as distractors of the newly formed monotheistic faith..

As far as Quran the book being the first book in Arabic and how it is developed as classic song/sonnet/story first Arabic book is concerned., We just have to understand how people in the past have written stuff/books/stories in any language for the first time.. take an example of English .. or Coptic language .. or Farsi or any recent languages such as Urdu .. Japanese... Chinese .. whatever.,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_writing_system

The method is going to be same or similar for Quran manuscripts., And and stylometric analysis or such similar method of any book or the book/individual surahs/chapters could throw some light on whether it was written/compiled by a single author or multiple authors at different times .. that is NOT a big deal ., except people investigating this subject are NOT putting time in to such investigation . They are all running in circles ..ether to put down Islam and Muslim folks or make it as word of some allah/god doooo..da...dooo da...

Incidentally that goes to any religion any faith and their respective books/scriptures
Quote
But if we follow Fred Donner's hypothesis that the Quran is a composite of texts from different groups on the Arabic peninsula. These texts must have been in different dialects, but then someone collected them and "translated" it all into the Arabic we find in the Quran?

well unless until you give references from his work I will not give that credit to Fred Donner'.,

That credit should actually go to analytical thinkers/Quran origin investigators like Professor John Wansbrough of the School of Oriental and African Studies in London.. or to some extent to that book/works of his students like Patricia Crone and Michael Cook ..etc..etc.. and and folks like dr. Luxenberg and dr.Gerd-R. Puin, and and similar investigators...

anyways my good wishes to you... keep writing in to the folder whenever you find some publications on that subject of Quran ....the book... and its origins..

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- zeca
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9849 - November 29, 2020, 08:59 PM

The IQSA annual meeting starts tomorrow. This year it's all online. Program book here (painfully slow pdf download):

https://iqsaweb.files.wordpress.com/2020/11/2020-iqsa-programbook-draft04-2.pdf

Which side are you on?
- zeca
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9850 - November 29, 2020, 09:07 PM

Thread: https://twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1332677866207719426
Quote
More and more 6th century (AD) Arabic monotheistic inscriptions with language reminiscent of the Qur'an are being found (thanks to increased interest and work in the region). Here @Safaitic helps decipher a particularly striking example.

Which side are you on?
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9851 - November 30, 2020, 08:30 AM

Quote from: zeca on November 29, 2020, 09:07 PM
Thread: https://twitter.com/GabrielSaidR/status/1332677866207719426

my goodness .. I am glad to see these tweets from friends there
Quote
Quote
Hamza Ali Abbasi@iamhamzaabbasi · Nov 25

https://twitter.com/iamhamzaabbasi

For the past 200 yrs, We Muslims r making the mistake of presenting Muhammad RasoolAllahSAW as a great Leader, Military Commander, Strategist/Reformer. Truth is, after Prophethood, Muhammad SAW did not act on his own at all, in fact it was God himself who acted thru Muhammad SAW!

Quote
Ahlulbayt TV@AhlulbaytTV

·https://twitter.com/AhlulbaytTV
Nov 28
The Holy Prophet (P) has said, “Allah, the All-mighty, the Majestic, says: ‘Whoever asks Me, knowing that I am the only One who harms and benefits, then I will surely answer him.”

Quote
Hammad Mustafa Qadri@Hammad_MQ
https://twitter.com/Hammad_MQ
Nov 27
Shaykh ‘Abd al-Qādir al-Jilānī was a reviver and reformer. A vast sea of knowledge, he taught 13 different sciences for almost 3 decades. By rejuvenating the culture of knowledge, he revived the foundations of Dīn and set the new course for all Islamic sciences and disciplines.

yes...yes Hamza ..yes...........For the past 200 yrs, We Muslims r making the mistake of presenting Muhammad RasoolAllahSAW as a great Leader, Military Commander, Strategist/Reformer. Truth is, after Prophethood, Muhammad SAW did not act on his own at all, in fact it was God himself who acted thru Muhammad SAW!

but you know if we think carefully., we are doing LOTS OF MISTAKES NOT JUST FOR THE PAST 200 YEARS. BUT WE ARE DOING IT FOR THE PAST 1400 years...........

and on that note let me watch these

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBawM3R-Dkg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9DLsJBrECw

great..... Hamza.... dear Hamza problem is NOT Islam..it is you.... Islam is faith.. just a faith., and it is your understanding of Islam ......god/allah whatever is the problem

anyways interaction on the internet from other perspective is important and I am glad those guys interacting with different world..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- zeca
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9852 - November 30, 2020, 10:20 AM

Herbert Berg and Sarah Rollens - The historical Muhammad and the historical Jesus: A comparison of scholarly reinventions and reinterpretations

https://www.academia.edu/34133690/The_historical_Muhammad_and_the_historical_Jesus_A_comparison_of_scholarly_reinventions_and_reinterpretations

It’s not the main point of the article but this is a quote from the first footnote. You could ask why this assumption should be seen as justified.
Quote
The tacit assumption is that Muhammad is a historical ﬁgure whose traditional biography is a reasonably accurate account of his life.

Which side are you on?
- zeca
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9853 - November 30, 2020, 11:26 AM

Yonatan Moss - The Rise and Function of the Holy Text in Late Antiquity

https://www.academia.edu/15002101/_The_Rise_and_Function_of_the_Holy_Text_in_Late_Antiquity_in_Brouria_Bitton_Ashkelony_Theodore_De_Bruyn_and_Carol_Harrison_eds_Patristic_Studies_in_the_Twenty_first_Century_Turnhout_Brepols_2015_521_545

Which side are you on?
- zeca
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9854 - November 30, 2020, 02:08 PM

Thread: https://twitter.com/kwo_vadis/status/1330953870424633347
Quote
@PhDniX Any opinion on this article of Durie making the case that Nabatean Arabic is the source of Quranic Arabic?

Quote
Yes, I'm not convinced. Here's the footnote in my forthcoming book on the topic (interacts not with this paper, but a section on the topic in his book, but the point is mostly the same).

Quote
But it's not as if the evidence is there in the Hijaz? bc there is nothing there, everything is possible, no?

Quote
No. We've had this conversation before. The Quran has many distinct morphological innovations that are completely absent in what we find in the Southern Levant.

Whenever there is evidence, Quranic features appear in the Northern Hijaz and are absent in the Southern Levant.
...
There are lots of Quranic isoglosses which are clearly absent in the Levantine forms of Arabic like Nabataean which do not have positive attestation in the Hijaz. But the absence of those features in the Levant clearly makes a Levantine origin impossible.

Quote
Quranic/early islamic Arabic seems to have been standardised to a quite high degree. P. Sijpelsteyn shows there seemed to be a written standard very early. So why cant this inscription be a reflection of the emerging standard and maybe not of the local dialect?

Quote
It can! Just not a lot of data points to make a strong case for it, and certainly not where it emerged and based on what dialect. And whatever emerging standard we see, has the features that show up in the Hijaz, and not the features that show up in the Levant

Even if it is a standard language, it's still going to be based on a spoken variety, and it depends on sociolinguistic factors which variety gets elevated, like Hollandic Dutch became the basis for standard Dutch, and Parisian French for standard French.

Which side are you on?
- Asbjoern1958
- Member
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9855 - December 01, 2020, 08:26 AM

Thanks Yeez for your reply. I am not much into Donner's work and cannot defend his views. Somewhere in one of his books he write:
""The markedly different style and content of diverse parts of the Quran may be evidence that the text as we now have it is a composite of originally separate texts hailing from different communities of Believers in Arabia".

I don't know how much support he has for his views among others in the field.
- Asbjoern1958
- Member
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9856 - December 01, 2020, 08:43 AM

By the way, I am here mostly to raise questions, because my knowledge about the Quran and early Islam, is limited. (And my brain is at the same size as the President of the most powerful nation of the world, so it is small and hardly functioning.)

I do not always agree with Jay Smith, but he is interesting to watch and easy to understand. He draws conclusions that the academics in the fields often don't dare to do. Here he is in a discussion with David Wood about the existent of Muhammed. I find Smith's answers here interesting. For instance, in this map he shows how many of the sources for early Islam that come from the north, not from Hijaz:
https://youtu.be/Zd_0LVbc3jY?t=2884
- Asbjoern1958
- Member
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9857 - December 01, 2020, 08:48 AM

Hi Zeca!
Very interesting comment from van Putten, that you quoted:
"here are lots of Quranic isoglosses which are clearly absent in the Levantine forms of Arabic like Nabataean which do not have positive attestation in the Hijaz. But the absence of those features in the Levant clearly makes a Levantine origin impossible."

So he claims that the Quran could not have originated in the Levant.

Wow!
- zeca
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9858 - December 01, 2020, 09:10 AM

He's talking about evidence from the northern Hijaz. Tabuk, which isn't that far from the border with Jordan, gets a mention. So maybe we're looking at a form of Arabic originating from the southern Nabataean area, and still a long way from Mecca and Medina. A literary standard form of a language can of course be used a long way from the area where its original spoken form existed. Syriac for example was based on the Aramaic spoken in Edessa in what is now south east Turkey but ended up as the standard Christian form of written Aramaic over a vast area. The wider adoption of a literary standard calls for a historical explanation though.

Which side are you on?
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9859 - December 02, 2020, 06:44 AM

Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on December 01, 2020, 08:43 AM
......... (And my brain is at the same size as the President of the most powerful nation of the world, so it is small and hardly functioning.).........

Hmm, makes me think about it.....
Quote
Size of the President of the most powerful nation of the world
Height 6′ 3″, Weight 243 lbs

..... well 243 lbs,....... comparatively sperm whale which has the biggest brain of any animal species weighing up to 20lbs or so ., 243 lb is a lot of brain., now I am fairly certain that you have the biggest/largest/heaviest brain ever any evolved species ever had for the past 600 million years or so dear Asbjoern1958

but this is interesting to think
Quote

Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on December 01, 2020, 08:48 AM
Hi Zeca!
Very interesting comment from van Putten, that you quoted:
Quote
"here are lots of Quranic isoglosses which are clearly absent in the Levantine forms of Arabic like Nabataean which do not have positive attestation in the Hijaz. But the absence of those features in the Levant clearly makes a Levantine origin impossible."

So he claims that the Quran could not have originated in the Levant.

Wow!

Quote from: zeca on December 01, 2020, 09:10 AM
Quote
He's talking about evidence from the northern Hijaz. Tabuk, which isn't that far from the border with Jordan, gets a mention. So maybe we're looking at a form of Arabic originating from the southern Nabataean area, and still a long way from Mecca and Medina.

A literary standard form of a language can of course be used a long way from the area where its original spoken form existed. Syriac for example was based on the Aramaic spoken in Edessa in what is now south east Turkey but ended up as the standard Christian form of written Aramaic over a vast area. The wider adoption of a literary standard calls for a historical explanation though.

like zeca said in those highlighted words i would question van Putten;s idea on the origins of Quran manuscripts ., Just because spoken Arabic originated from the southern Nabataean area or certain other places does not mean manuscripts also came from there... these are maps of the fertile crescent of Mesopotamia

the written manuscripts of Arabic Quran before it became book could have come anywhere from that fertile crescent area .. which is around 1000 miles., A traveler with proper guides could walk around that area in 5 or 6 months ...

that 2nd map is interesting,,, it is supposed to be a general map of Mesopotamia and its neighboring territories which roughly covers the period from 2000-1600 BCE ,,

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- zeca
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9860 - December 08, 2020, 12:40 AM

Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/DanielABeck9/status/1335621501995741184
Quote
A long thread on this fascinating new volume on early Islam, edited by Carlos Segovia. I will briefly give my impressions of each paper (disclaimer, one is mine).

Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1335676197498478593
Quote
In the new volume by Segovia, there's an article that makes me feel like we have stepped into a time machine, all progress of the past decades is ignored. Emilio Ferrín argues for a Wansbrough-style late (post 800 CE) compilation of the Quran.
Here's why this doesn't work.

Which side are you on?
- zeca
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9861 - December 08, 2020, 10:15 AM

Wansbrough: https://mobile.twitter.com/RamonIHarvey/status/1335726529549127692

Which side are you on?
- Asbjoern1958
- Member
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9862 - December 10, 2020, 08:28 PM

Zeca, it was a very interesting thread that you referred to with Beck and van Putten. It seems like van Putten has erased or has limited the amount of viewers to some of his comments, but here is some of it:
"
orbi
@kwo_vadis
·
6. des.
Would an inclusive compilation a la Wansbrough be possible if it were scheduled a century earlier, thus from mid 6th C to beginning 7th C?
Marijn "i before j" van Putten
@PhDniX
·
6. des.
I'm quite open to that possibility. Although I'm more partial to the compilation of multiple pre-Quranic texts happening in the mouth of the prophet rather than in a compilation. But it is not immediately evident to me how to keep those apart.
orbi
@kwo_vadis
·
6. des.
From a practical point of view it seems more likely that the scribal workshop had some texts in front of them, rather than someone reciting, no?"

Van Putten seems to be open to accept that the Quran could have been compiled or made before Muhammed lived, but that is probably too controversial??
https://twitter.com/kwo_vadis/status/1335642624301166596?s=20
- Asbjoern1958
- Member
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9863 - December 10, 2020, 08:33 PM

Yeez, thank for your reflections on my brain. It is definitely smaller than the brain of a blue whale and the body of the President of the USA. But it is mine and is the only one that I have. It was working better when I was younger, that's for sure!
- zeca
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9864 - December 11, 2020, 02:50 PM

Touraj Daryaee - From Two Centuries of Silence to the Conquest and Collapse of the Sasanian Empire

https://www.academia.edu/956828/From_Two_Centuries_of_Silence_to_the_Conquest_and_Collapse_of_the_Sasanian_Empire

Which side are you on?
- zeca
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9865 - December 16, 2020, 11:08 AM

Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi - The silent Quran and the speaking Quran

https://www.academia.edu/11562650/The_silent_Quran_and_the_speaking_Quran

Which side are you on?
- zeca
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9866 - December 24, 2020, 11:20 PM

Forthcoming book:

Stephen Shoemaker - A Prophet has Appeared The Rise of Islam through Christian and Jewish Eyes, A Sourcebook

https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520299610/a-prophet-has-appeared
Quote
Early Islam has emerged as a lively site of historical investigation, and scholars have challenged the traditional accounts of Islamic origins by drawing attention to the wealth of non-Islamic sources that describe the rise of Islam. A Prophet Has Appeared brings this approach to the classroom. This collection provides students and scholars with carefully selected, introduced, and annotated materials from non-Islamic sources dating to the early years of Islam. These can be read alone or alongside the Qur'an and later Islamic materials. Applying historical-critical analysis, the volume moves these invaluable sources to more equal footing with later Islamic narratives about Muhammad and the formation of his new religious movement.

Included are new English translations of sources by twenty authors, originally written in not only Greek and Latin but also Syriac, Georgian, Armenian, Hebrew, and Arabic and spanning a geographic range from England to Egypt and Iran. Ideal for the classroom and personal library, this sourcebook provides readers with the tools to meaningfully approach a new, burgeoning area of Islamic studies.

Quote
"This excellent and concise volume presents the reader, both novice and informed, with the most important non-Islamic textual witnesses to the rise of Islam during its first century. In accessible English, Stephen Shoemaker has woven these sources together into a coherent narrative focusing particularly on Islamic settlement in and around Jerusalem and Syria. This book will prove essential reading in any undergraduate and graduate course on the early centuries of Islam."—Naomi Koltun-Fromm, Professor of Religion, Haverford College

Which side are you on?
- zeca
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9867 - December 25, 2020, 09:53 AM

Nicolai Sinai - Rain-Giver, Bone-Breaker, Score-Settler: Allāh in Pre-Quranic Poetry

https://www.academia.edu/40519397/Rain_Giver_Bone_Breaker_Score_Settler_Allāh_in_Pre_Quranic_Poetry_New_Haven_American_Oriental_Society_2019?email_work_card=title

Which side are you on?
- zeca
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9868 - December 26, 2020, 11:05 AM

A thread on Shoemaker's book: https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1342179694028984325
Quote
Professor @PhDniX, curious if you have any views on the relative lateness of external witness to the Quran. It seems curious in light of the mounting evidence for a mid 7th c stabilisation date

I was reminded of this issue by Shoemaker’s framing in his new book (he prefers a not-widely known Quran early on so as to support Donner’s Believers hypothesis)

I don’t have any specific hypothesis btw; just found these two sets of facts curious!

Quote
Nice question, thanks. I agree that the it should give us pause. Just going to throw out some thoughts: It is worth keeping in mind that we just lack literary production in the first century that would quote the Quran extensively (and if it did exist, it's certainly lost).

But by the time we have the earliest quranic readers, the text must have been complete... which is certainly around let's say the 70s AH. Same is true for the Dome of the Rock inscription at 72AH, clearly citing the Quran. Same with some other (slightly later) 1st c. inscriptions

Traditional canonization would be around the 30s AH. So we're talking about a 40 year somewhat silent gap here. That's a very tumultuous gap. It might be true that scripture and theology was less central at the time, and thus didn't end up massively in writing.

We have to be careful not to make an argument from silence here: It's not like we have endless (native at least) texts in this period where we would *expect* there to be Quranic references, but they are absent. We simply lack sources from that gap, period.

Which side are you on?
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Qur'anic studies today
Reply #9869 - December 26, 2020, 11:45 AM

Quote from: zeca on December 26, 2020, 11:05 AM
A thread on Shoemaker's book: https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1342179694028984325

Quote
Quote
https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1342180640440127493

But by the time we have the earliest quranic readers, the text must have been complete... which is certainly around let's say the 70s AH. Same is true for the Dome of the Rock inscription at 72AH, clearly citing the Quran. Same with some other (slightly later) 1st c. inscriptions

Quote
https://twitter.com/tom47748/status/1342181282759979012

Interesting. I guess one could either say that (1) the text had a relatively circumscribed role in early Muslim piety and hence non-Muslims didn’t take note of it, OR that (2) non-Muslims may well have taken note but those sources just haven’t survived, or didn’t exist anyway

WHAT IS THAT 72AH NONSENSE??

These academics need to learn to change whole timeline vocabulary of early Islam

.. ACTUALLY THERE WAS NO ISLAM IN 72AH..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
Previous page 1 ... 327 328 329330 331 ... 370 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »

CEMB → Forum → Life, The Universe & Everything → Religions and Gods → Qur'anic studies today

Welcome

Donations

Recent Posts

Theme Changer

Topic: Qur'anic studies today

Altara

Reply #9840 - September 29, 2020, 06:06 PM

zeca

Reply #9841 - September 29, 2020, 09:09 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9842 - September 30, 2020, 03:03 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9843 - October 12, 2020, 09:20 AM

zeca

Reply #9844 - November 16, 2020, 12:20 AM

Asbjoern1958

Reply #9845 - November 17, 2020, 07:58 AM

yeezevee

Reply #9846 - November 20, 2020, 10:37 AM

Asbjoern1958

Reply #9847 - November 20, 2020, 03:44 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9848 - November 29, 2020, 10:47 AM

zeca

Reply #9849 - November 29, 2020, 08:59 PM

zeca

Reply #9850 - November 29, 2020, 09:07 PM

yeezevee

Reply #9851 - November 30, 2020, 08:30 AM

zeca

Reply #9852 - November 30, 2020, 10:20 AM

zeca

Reply #9853 - November 30, 2020, 11:26 AM

zeca

Reply #9854 - November 30, 2020, 02:08 PM

Asbjoern1958

Reply #9855 - December 01, 2020, 08:26 AM

Asbjoern1958

Reply #9856 - December 01, 2020, 08:43 AM

Asbjoern1958

Reply #9857 - December 01, 2020, 08:48 AM

zeca

Reply #9858 - December 01, 2020, 09:10 AM

yeezevee

Reply #9859 - December 02, 2020, 06:44 AM

zeca

Reply #9860 - December 08, 2020, 12:40 AM

zeca

Reply #9861 - December 08, 2020, 10:15 AM

Asbjoern1958

Reply #9862 - December 10, 2020, 08:28 PM

Asbjoern1958

Reply #9863 - December 10, 2020, 08:33 PM

zeca

Reply #9864 - December 11, 2020, 02:50 PM

zeca

Reply #9865 - December 16, 2020, 11:08 AM

zeca

Reply #9866 - December 24, 2020, 11:20 PM

zeca

Reply #9867 - December 25, 2020, 09:53 AM

zeca

Reply #9868 - December 26, 2020, 11:05 AM

yeezevee

Reply #9869 - December 26, 2020, 11:45 AM

Basic Information

General Resources

CEMB Organisation