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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9900 - January 23, 2021, 10:14 PM
    1/ The Quran rewrites passages of the Bible for it's own agenda. It is the case with this story taken from the Bible in Q 20.
    Rewriting the Bible is a known stuff: The book of Jubilees did it (-250). The Quran does the same with Q 7,166  the Jews transformed in apes, (from Daniel) etc. Many stories of the Quran are a rewriting of Bible and NT passages or taken in the Late antique Apocryphal existing stuff. For it's own agenda toward (for me...) one population: Arabophone Christianized people.

    2/Simon the Samaritan aka the Magician is (for me...) the figure of the Devil in the Pseudo-Clementine literature. In a series of public debates he opposes Peter the apostle presented as the scholar of the divine Truth he got by his companioning with the living Jesus. In the Homilies the Peter is not "Christian" he is in fact a kind of proto Quranic mu'min opposing the figure of Simon the Samaritan.
    Check Academia about Pseudo-Clementine literature, there's plenty of stuff.

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9901 - January 23, 2021, 11:05 PM
    well I like Michael Pregill Publications and I like that calf story/calf stories

    but more important is reading Quran verses on that  story., It seems many don't read those verses  as mini story that is incorporated in to Quran verses., well let me read them here ..

    Quote
    (1) And when We appointed a time of forty nights with Musa, then you took the calf (for a god) after him and you were unjust. .....Al-Baqara, .Verse #51

    (2) And when Musa said to his people: O my people! you have surely been unjust to yourselves by taking the calf  (for a god) , therefore turn to your Creator  (penitently), so kill your people, that is best for you with your Creator: so He turned to you (mercifully) , for surely He is the Oft-returning (to mercy)[ , the Merciful.( Al-Baqara,  Verse #54)
     
    (3) And most certainly Musa came to you with clear arguments, then you took the calf (for a god) in his absence and you were unjust.( Al-Baqara,, Verse #92)
     
    (4) And when We made a covenant with you and raised the mountain over you: Take hold of what We have given you with firmness and be obedient. They said: We hear and disobey. And they were made to imbibe (the love of) the calf into their hearts on account of their unbelief. Say: Evil is that which your belief bids you if you are believers. ( Al-Baqara,  Verse #93)
     
    (5) The followers of the Book ask you to bring down to them a book from heaven; so indeed they demanded of Musa a greater thing than that, for they said: Show us Allah manifestly; so the lightning overtook them on account of their injustice. Then they took the calf (for a god), after clear signs had come to them, but We pardoned this; and We gave to Musa clear authority.( An-Nisaa,  Verse #153)
     
    (6) And Musa's people made of their ornaments a calf after him, a (mere) body, which gave a mooing sound. What! could they not see that it did not speak to them nor guide them in the way? They took it (for worship) and they were unjust. (Al-A'raaf, Verse #148)
     
    (7) (As for) those who took the calf (for a god), surely wrath from their Lord and disgrace in this world's life shall overtake them, and thus do We recompense the devisers of lies. ( Al-A'raaf, Chapter #7, Verse #152)
     
    (8 ) And certainly Our apostles came to Ibrahim with good news. They said: Peace. Peace, said he, and he made no delay in bringing a roasted calf.(   Hud,    Verse #69)
     
    (9) So he brought forth for them a calf, a (mere) body, which had a mooing sound, so they said: This is your god and the god of Musa, but he forgot.(  Taa-Haa,   Verse #88)
     
    (10) Then he turned aside to his family secretly and brought a fat  calf ( Adh-Dhaariyat,  , Verse #26)


     Well  those are the 10 verses on that calf ., what story should we make out of them??  

    Allah knows the best
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9902 - January 24, 2021, 11:02 AM
    Quote from: Altara on January 23, 2021, 10:14 PM
    1/ The Quran rewrites passages of the Bible for it's own agenda. It is the case with this story taken from the Bible in Q 20.
    Rewriting the Bible is a known stuff: The book of Jubilees did it (-250). The Quran does the same with Q 7,166  the Jews transformed in apes, (from Daniel) etc. Many stories of the Quran are a rewriting of Bible and NT passages or taken in the Late antique Apocryphal existing stuff. For it's own agenda toward (for me...) one population: Arabophone Christianized people.

    2/Simon the Samaritan aka the Magician is (for me...) the figure of the Devil in the Pseudo-Clementine literature. In a series of public debates he opposes Peter the apostle presented as the scholar of the divine Truth he got by his companioning with the living Jesus. In the Homilies the Peter is not "Christian" he is in fact a kind of proto Quranic mu'min opposing the figure of Simon the Samaritan.
    Check Academia about Pseudo-Clementine literature, there's plenty of stuff.


     well that is all fine and there is little doubt on Quran writers rewriting bible stories in a claptrap drivel sentences ., My problem is NOT  Quran., . the book is nothing but a wonderful song sonnet story book where the stories are collected from earlier faiths that were floating around Arabian peninsula .

    My problem is with brainless bums that consider it as word of Allah/god  and act upon those verses using them in day to day active life .,  And  My problem is with books/publications  like  this one from professors that work in  western university



     that adds no value in  educating  the readers about Islam and Its origins..

    anyways  click the picture and listen to  Michael Pregill ., he wants to write another book on that golden calf., Also I wonder whether you could write bit YOUR OWN TAFSIR /  your own understanding of those 10 verses of Quran i posted above where that Golden Calf is mentioned ..

    with best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9903 - January 24, 2021, 11:35 AM
    Quote
    Well  those are the 10 verses on that calf ., what story should we make out of them?? 

    Allah knows the best


    Hahaha! The story (already told in Q 20) is repeated with different angles/allusions for the reader remember it. The reader must be always in tension with what is important with the agenda of the authors.
    Same with the story of Noah, etc.
    Tafsir done Wink
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9904 - January 24, 2021, 07:13 PM
    You maybe have seen this before, but it is interesting. Ian D. Morris has done research on tafsirs and found that they interpreted earlier Christian and Jewish texts in the Quran, with the Quran. In the nascent Muslim community, people knew these stories and their symbols and could interpret it more correctly, but according to Morris, the scholars in the 9th century didn't know the stories. Do you agree or do you think the later scholars changed the interpretation of  the content in the Quran by will?

    https://twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/1139257087895199746

    http://www.iandavidmorris.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Pillow-of-figs-script.pdf
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9905 - January 24, 2021, 08:10 PM
    Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on January 24, 2021, 07:13 PM
    You maybe have seen this before, but it is interesting. Ian D. Morris ......................


    http://www.iandavidmorris.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Pillow-of-figs-script.pdf


    Ian is a very very smart  guy yet he falls short right in going beyond  paragraph of that pdf file.,  not only Ian many other investigator of this subject falls short of research investigation on the  subject of origins of Quran., they just take few verses here and there from present book and run in circles

    Quote
    The Qur’an existed in more or less its current form by the middle of the seventh century. It’s an extremely allusive text: it doesn’t tell stories in full; rather it hints at stories that the audience must have known. The earliest Muslims must have been steeped in parabiblical legend if they were going to understand what the Qur’an was trying to say. However, merely a hundred years after the Qur’an was redacted, the world of Early Islam had changed
    radically

    that means by 650....670 ....690....  the present book is in its complete form right??

    I need proof for that., Next I would say much of the Quran manuscripts ( NOT THE BOOK) were actually must have been written /those stories that we see in Quran  were told way before they became manuscripts .

    More importantly what would it take for these scholars of Islam to filter the present book using some sort of filters and tell the story of  real  Quran ?? In fact I could easily  check out 20 to 30% of Quran verses that are junk.. nonsense in the name of Allah/God ......politically motivated and  yet leave its basic   Monotheistic ideology of Allah/God intact for the followers of Islam.

    with best wishes
    yeezevee
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9906 - January 24, 2021, 08:12 PM
    Wow, I discoverer just now that the Inarah group recently has started a YouTube canal!! Here is Dr. Puin interviewed by Robert Kerr!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M544DtdLD9Q&feature=youtu.be

  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9907 - January 24, 2021, 10:45 PM
    Part 2 of the interview
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Biu1v0bQ4_I
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9908 - January 25, 2021, 06:38 PM
    Quote
    Quote from: Asbjoern1958 on January 24, 2021, 08:12 PM
    Wow, I discoverer just now that the Inarah group recently has started a YouTube canal!! Here is Dr. Puin interviewed by Robert Kerr!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M544DtdLD9Q&feature=youtu.be

    Quote from: zeca on January 24, 2021, 10:45 PM
    Part 2 of the interview
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Biu1v0bQ4_I


    good stuff .. good stuff there..

    Just curious.,  So where are these original manuscripts located today??   still in Yemen??

    let me add this PDF link here

    Ṣan‘ā’ 1 and the Origins of the Qur’ān by Behnam Sadeghi and Mohsen Goudarzi 
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9909 - January 27, 2021, 08:36 AM
    Aaron Hagler - The Echoes of Fitna: Developing Historiographical Interpretations of the Battle of Siffin

    https://www.academia.edu/1928227/The_Echoes_of_Fitna_Developing_Historiographical_Interpretations_of_the_Battle_of_Siffin
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9910 - January 27, 2021, 04:39 PM
    Interesting, thanks Zeca.
    I consider that this battle have nothing to see with people of Mecca ex enemy of Muhammad (Muawiya) fighting the Ansar of Medina which is more or less what it is seen by the Muslim narrative of the 9th c. (Quraysh goes to Palestine/ Ansar goes to Iraq).
    The question would be rather: Why the Arabs who rule Damascus since 636 want so much ruling Iraq? Why do they need to control it?
    The response is rather simple.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9911 - January 28, 2021, 09:20 AM
    Quote from: Altara on January 27, 2021, 04:39 PM
    Interesting, thanks Zeca.
    I consider that this battle have nothing to see with people of Mecca ex enemy of Muhammad (Muawiya) fighting the Ansar of Medina which is more or less what it is seen by the Muslim narrative of the 9th c. (Quraysh goes to Palestine/ Ansar goes to Iraq).

      I like that.,

    on that Harry Potter story of early  Islam,  a better statement would be

    After the death of Muhammad(PBUH) Meccans goes to Palestine Medinan goes to Iraq

    'or 'or

    after the death of Muhammad(PBUH) Meccans goes to north  Medinan goes to south

    and hello Altara  can you throw some links preferably from Academic historians(NOT ISLAMIC STORY TELLERS)  on that Muslim narrative of the 9th c. ..
    Quote
    The question would be rather: Why the Arabs who rule Damascus since 636 want so much ruling Iraq? Why do they need to control it?
    The response is rather simple.

    tell me your simple answer ., my answer is much more simple., IT IS ALL FITNA..

    Islamic  fitna.,  FITNA OVER FITNA..  My Islam is better than your Islam.,  I am seeing it even today.. In Iraq, In Libya., in Syria ,, In Afghanistan   

    once the power structures and  Rule of Law of Romans and  of Persians   destroyed due to war between them., or by external forces,  you end up having power struggle with in towns  with local  militia groups in the name of Islam ..  FITNA ISLAM
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9912 - January 30, 2021, 12:16 PM
    https://apnews.com/article/israel-jerusalem-coronavirus-pandemic-archaeology-76bdaf039055eee55d8bb77fa581cdb2
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9913 - January 31, 2021, 12:18 AM
    https://twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/1355571538368585730
    Quote
    For your consideration: a new interpretation of Qur’an 2:243, drawing on rabbinical stories about Ezekiel, the Exodus, and the Ephraimites.

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9914 - January 31, 2021, 02:13 PM
    Ali Altaf Mian - Review of Gabriel Said Reynolds, Allah: God in the Qur'an

    https://www.academia.edu/44989820/Review_of_Gabriel_Said_Reynolds_Allah_God_in_the_Quran_Yale_University_Press_2020_
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9915 - February 01, 2021, 02:47 PM
    https://mindingscripture.com/episode-18-noah/
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9916 - February 02, 2021, 03:15 AM
    Quote from: zeca on January 31, 2021, 02:13 PM
    Ali Altaf Mian -  ....................


    Surviving Modernity: Ashraf ‘Alī Thānvī (1863-1943) and the Making of Muslim Orthodoxy in Colonial India by  Ali Altaf Mian

    That is a pdf file of Ali Altaf's Ph. D.  thesis on Ashraf ‘Alī Thānvī (1863-1943)., Ashraf ‘Alī   life and his works are the perfect example of how Islam gets shaped by the preachers and their followers  where  very little of their Islam comes out of Quran but most of their Islam is shaped by the stories written in Hadith ..

    Ashraf ‘Alī Thānvī  was a student of Imdadullah Muhajir Makki (1817 – 1899) who was an Indian Muslim Sufi scholar of the Chishti Sufi order. Muhajir Makki  participated and active member of Indian Rebellion of 1857, he led the Muslims in Thana Bhawan to fight against British.

    Quote
    In 1906, Ahmad Raza Khan and other scholars issued a fatwa against Thanwi and other Deobandi leaders     calling   Ashraf ‘Alī Thānvī  and his followers as unbelievers and Satanists

    . 
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9917 - February 02, 2021, 06:04 PM
    The Original Islamic Hajj To Jerusalem

    Robert Martin Kerr

    https://www.academia.edu/45027659/The_Original_Islamic_Hajj_To_Jerusalem
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9918 - February 04, 2021, 09:55 PM
    https://twitter.com/MayShaddel/status/1318170291831525376

    Quote
    Political rivalry and propaganda in early Islam, a thread:

    Last week I ran across this interesting quote by French semiotician Roland Barthes, which biblical scholar Elizabeth Clark has appropriated to describe the modus operandi in early Christian biblical exegesis: ‘what has been said cannot be unsaid, except by adding to it’. Why? Because it’s not so easy to remove a passage that causes theological headaches from the scripture, but it can be explained away using allegorical exegesis. A similar tendency can be observed in Islamic tradition: there are cases where prophetic traditions put into circulation to serve a political purpose are not dismissed by the opposing party as forgeries, but further material is added to them to neutralise their effect. I uncovered an interesting case of this practice in an article I wrote on propagandistic traditions from the time of the Second Muslim Civil War, 680-692 (see here: https://academia.edu/8210987). Upon the accession of the Umayyad Yazīd to power in 680, ʿAbd Allāh ibn al-Zubayr refused to pledge allegiance to him and fled to the holy city of Mecca, where he took up residence in the sacred precincts of the Kaaba and called himself ‘refugee in the sanctuary’. Over the course of the next one year or so, Yazīd attempted to win him over or buy him off on multiple occasions, but all his attempts were spurned. Eventually, Yazīd decided to take an iron-fisted approach and ordered the governor of Medina to despatch a task force to Mecca to arrest Ibn al-Zubayr. But this task force, commanded by Ibn al-Zubayr’s half-brother ʿAmr ibn al-Zubayr, was wiped out just outside Mecca in an ambush by a ragtag band of Ibn al-Zubayr’s sympathisers. This unexpected victory against a regular and relatively sizeable force gave further momentum to the Zubayrid cause, and Ibn al-Zubayr and his supporters then capitalised on it by putting into circulation oracular pronouncements attributed to the prophet Muhammad prophesying the miraculous destruction of an army (by being swallowed up, Ar. khusifa bihim) marching on the sacred precincts of Mecca. The details given in these traditions about the army and the manner of its annihilation would leave no doubt in the minds of the contemporaries that, 1) they referred to ʿAmr ibn al-Zubayr’s army, that, 2) God was displeased with this army which had dared march against His inviolable sanctuary, and that, 3) its destruction was a divine punishment and was a sign of divine wrath at the Umayyad camp. In Syria, Umayyad propagandists responded to these prophecies by putting into circulation one of their own, according to which there would be not one, but TWO refugees in the sanctuary over the course of human history. The first one—obviously ʿAbd Allāh ibn al-Zubayr—would eventually be killed and need not concern anyone. It was only the second refugee, who had yet to appear, that was the one who’d enjoy divine protection, and it was against this second refugee that the army which would be ‘swallowed up’ (in the earth) would be sent. The message was clear: while Zubayrid traditions tried to cast the defeat of ʿAmr’s army in miraculous terms and portray it as an instance of divine intervention against Umayyads, the Umayyads responded by identifying those traditions as a references to a future event—while also predicting Ibn al-Zubayr’s eventual death in Mecca to reassure their followers that he’d be defeated. But why go to such lengths rather than just dismiss a tradition put into circulation by one’s enemies as a forgery? The reasons are probably legion and complex, but one answer could be that if one were to accuse the other party of forgery, one’s audience might demand proof that one was not a forger oneself. But claiming that the tradition was indeed authentic required no proof from an audience already sympathetic to it, and it was always easier to add some further ‘explanations’ about the exact course of events.

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9919 - February 05, 2021, 02:55 AM
    Quote
    Quote from: zeca on February 04, 2021, 09:55 PM
    https://twitter.com/MayShaddel/status/1318170291831525376


    I uncovered an interesting case of this practice in an article I wrote on propagandistic traditions from the time of the Second Muslim Civil War, 680-692 (see here: https://academia.edu/8210987). Upon the accession of the Umayyad Yazīd to power in 680, ʿAbd Allāh ibn al-Zubayr refused to pledge allegiance to him and fled to the holy city of Mecca, where he took up residence in the sacred precincts of the Kaaba and called himself ‘refugee in the sanctuary’. Over the course of the next one year or so, Yazīd attempted to win him over or buy him off on multiple occasions, but all his attempts were spurned. Eventually, Yazīd decided to take an iron-fisted approach and ordered the governor of Medina to despatch a task force to Mecca to arrest Ibn al-Zubayr.

    I would suggest to MayShaddel  and other academics that work in this investigative research on   early Islamic history to uncover another secret of early Islam.. and that is

    "THERE WAS NO MECCA NO MEDINA NO MUHMAAD AND NO FIRST MUSLIM CIVIL WAR.,"
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9920 - February 05, 2021, 08:51 PM
    Nathaniel Miller - Yemeni Inscriptions, Iraqi Chronicles, Hijazi Poetry: A Reconstruction of the Meaning of Isrāʾ in Qur'an 17:1

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-the-royal-asiatic-society/article/yemeni-inscriptions-iraqi-chronicles-hijazi-poetry-a-reconstruction-of-the-meaning-of-isra-in-quran-171/5FA72ED89A875CEDCF5BFD575D69B79C

    https://cambridge.academia.edu/NathanielMiller
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9921 - February 05, 2021, 09:08 PM
    Thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/DanielABeck9/status/1349778315695935490
    Quote
    Working on an article right now that argues Gustav Weil was pretty much right in some of his arguments for an initial written compilation / redaction in Abu Bakr’s time. Based on analyzing quranic interpolations. Still in early stages though.

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9922 - February 06, 2021, 12:24 PM
    The Miller paper is important.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9923 - February 06, 2021, 01:11 PM
    Quote
    Quote
    Quote from: zeca on February 05, 2021, 08:51 PM
    Yemeni Inscriptions, Iraqi Chronicles, Hijazi Poetry: A Reconstruction of the Meaning of Isrāʾ in Qur'an

    17:1 by  Nathaniel Miller 

    https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/journal-of-the-royal-asiatic-society/article/yemeni-inscriptions-iraqi-chronicles-hijazi-poetry-a-reconstruction-of-the-meaning-of-isra-in-quran-171/5FA72ED89A875CEDCF5BFD575D69B79C

    https://cambridge.academia.edu/NathanielMiller

    Quote from: Altara on February 06, 2021, 12:24 PM
    The Miller paper is important.



    Thanks to zeca., that is indeed very well written publication .. important stuff in it for me is ., coupling alleged early Islamic expeditions to that verse 17:1.,

    well let me add that verse and another 10 verses on top of it just to read them.. and and add the map of alleged middles east political landscape of that time
    Quote
    Quote
    Quote

     
    سُبْحَانَ الَّذِي أَسْرَىٰ بِعَبْدِهِ لَيْلًا مِّنَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ إِلَى الْمَسْجِدِ الْأَقْصَى الَّذِي بَارَكْنَا حَوْلَهُ لِنُرِيَهُ مِنْ آيَاتِنَا ۚ إِنَّهُ هُوَ السَّمِيعُ الْبَصِيرُ


    Yusuf Ali:   Glory to (Allah) Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).

    Shakir:   Glory be to Him Who made His servant to go on a night from the Sacred Mosque to the remote mosque of which We have blessed the precincts, so that We may show to him some of Our signs; surely He is the Hearing, the Seeing.

    Pickthall:   Glorified be He Who carried His servant by night from the Inviolable Place of Worship to the Far distant place of worship the neighbourhood whereof We have blessed, that We might show him of Our tokens! Lo! He, only He, is the Hearer, the Seer.

    Mohsin Khan:   Glorified (and Exalted) be He (Allah) [above all that (evil) they associate with Him] Who took His slave (Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم) for a journey by night from Al-Masjid-al-Haram (at Makkah) to Al-Masjid-al-Aqsa (in Jerusalem), the neighbourhood whereof We have blessed, in order that We might show him (Muhammad صلى الله عليه و سلم) of Our Ayat (proofs, evidence, lessons, signs, etc.). Verily, He is the All-Hearer, the All-Seer .

    Saheeh:   Exalted is He who took His Servant by night from al-Masjid al-Haram to al-Masjid al-Aqsa, whose surroundings We have blessed, to show him of Our signs. Indeed, He is the Hearing, the Seeing.


    Quote
    1.    Glory be to Him Who made His servant to go on a night from the Sacred Mosque to the remote mosque of which We have blessed the precincts, so that We may show to him some of Our signs; surely He is the Hearing, the Seeing.

    2.    And We gave Musa the Book and made it a guidance to the children of Israel, saying: Do not take a protector besides Me;

    3.    The offspring of those whom We bore with Nuh; surely he was a grateful servant.

    4.    And We had made known to the children of Israel in the Book: Most certainly you will make mischief in the land twice, and most certainly you will behave insolently with great insolence.

    5.    So when the promise for the first of the two came, We sent over you Our servants, of mighty prowess, so they went to and fro among the houses, and it was a promise to be accomplished.

    6.   Then We gave you back the turn to prevail against them, and aided you with wealth and children and made you a numerous band.

    7.   If you do good, you will do good for your own souls, and if you do evil, it shall be for them. So when the second promise came (We raised another people) that they may bring you to grief and that they may enter the mosque as they entered it the first time, and that they might destroy whatever they gained ascendancy over with utter destruction.

    8.   It may be that your Lord will have mercy on you, and if you again return (to disobedience) We too will return (to punishment), and We have made hell a prison for the unbelievers.

    9.   Surely this Quran guides to that which is most upright and gives go od news to the believers who do good that they shall have a great reward.

    10.   And that (as for) those who do not believe in the hereafter, We have prepared for them a painful chastisement.




    Quote
    Date   656–661
    Location   
    Arabian Peninsula
    Result   Rebellion successful, peace treaty signed;
    Muawiyah I begins the Umayyad Caliphate


    So question  to you on that Miller's pub dear Altara., 

    That verse may be related originally to that  Hijazi Poetry(BEFORE IT GOT IN TO SANA MANSUCRIPTS) but do you really think it has to do with those Yemeni Inscriptions??  Could the author of that chapter 17 write that verse in some sort of poem before manuscripts were transported to Yemen Sana mosque??

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9924 - February 06, 2021, 06:56 PM
    Thread: https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1358090614848512003
    Quote
    I was asked a while ago to explain what historical linguists of Arabic mean when we told about 'Old Hijazi' and 'Nabataean Arabic' and how these relate to one another and where the language of the Quran fits in. So this thread will address these questions!

    Nabataean Arabic is the language researchers suppose many of the inhabitants of the Nabataean Kingdom spoke. The Nabataeans, as a rule, used Aramaic as their administrative language. The script they used was a form of the Imperial Aramaic script. This script evolved over time.

    Eventually this script evolves all the way to what we know as the modern Arabic script. This is a gradual development, and it is not possible to pinpoint where the 'Nabataean Aramaic' script ends and the 'Arabic script' begins.

    While Aramaic was their administrative language, the names we find in Nabataean inscriptions are transparently Arabic, and in their Aramaic we find certain uses of syntax, but also loanwords, which seem to suggest their primarily language was a dialect of Arabic.

    Occasionally we find inscriptions which are actually completely, or mostly composed in Arabic. The Arabic we find in those inscriptions is quite markedly different from Classical Arabic. But the data that we have of this language is very fragmentary.

    This is because: 1. We don't have all that many Nabataean inscriptions with a lot of content.
    2. Most of those inscriptions that do have content tend to be composed in Aramaic.

    The Nabataean writing tradition continues well after the Nabataean Kingdom. The script continues to evolve, and it comes to be adapted for different varieties of Arabic. The script even reaches the Hijaz, and comes to be adapted to write Old Hijazi.

    The main linguistic source of 'Old Hijazi' is the writing tradition that appears at the beginning of the Islamic century, both in administrative papyri and the Quran's consonantal text. Though some pre-islamic inscriptions already rarely display some of its linguistic features.

    This thread is already getting a little bit long, but works as a nice set-up for what is to come. In the next thread, I will compare some features that distinguish Nabataean from Old Hijazi, and will examine how some of these features are discussed by the medieval grammarians.

    If you can't wait for this upcoming thread, make sure to check out @Safaitic's excellent book on the Damascus Psalm Fragment which has a nice chapter on this topic. https://www.academia.edu/43189829/Al_Jallad_2020_The_Damascus_Psalm_Fragment_Middle_Arabic_and_the_Legacy_of_Old_Ḥigāzī_w_a_contribution_by_R_Vollandt

    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9925 - February 06, 2021, 11:07 PM
    Quote
    If you can't wait for this upcoming thread, make sure to check out @Safaitic's excellent book on the Damascus Psalm Fragment which has a nice chapter on this topic. https://www.academia.edu/43189829/Al_Jallad_2020_The_Damascus_Psalm_Fragment_Middle_Arabic_and_the_Legacy_of_Old_Ḥigāzī_w_a_contribution_by_R_Vollandt


    Reading this chapter it isn't clear to me that it demonstrates the link between 'Old Hijazi' and the Hijaz without relying on evidence from the later tradition, which, in terms of the geographical origin of the original quranic texts, is what is in question.
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9926 - February 06, 2021, 11:59 PM
    Of course.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9927 - February 07, 2021, 12:08 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 06, 2021, 01:11 PM

    So question  to you on that Miller's pub dear Altara., 



    The importance lies in the fact of the slowly emergence of the South Arabian dimension concerning certain Quranic vocabulary. What is this South Arabian dimension? The Yemeni one. What is Yemen at this time? Robin has written many papers about it. Academia is your friend.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9928 - February 07, 2021, 12:27 AM
    Quote from: Altara on February 07, 2021, 12:08 AM
    The importance lies in the fact of the slowly emergence of the South Arabian dimension concerning certain Quranic vocabulary. What is this South Arabian dimension? The Yemeni one. What is Yemen at this time? Robin has written many papers about it. Academia is your friend.

    Quote from: Al-Jallad
    The Qaṣīdah belongs to a different literary culture than that of the Ḥigāz, as its form is not found in the Quran. And even though the Quran refers to poets, there nothing to suggest that these poets were producing poems belonging to the same style as the pre-Islamic Qaṣīdah. In fact, the precursors to the Qaṣīdah form seem to come from South Arabia. It is likely that this poetic form was introduced to Arabic speakers who came under the influence of South Arabian culture, perhaps in the period when the Himyarites expanded into central Arabia, the territory of Maʕadd. Thus, there is no reason to assume, and no inscriptional evidence to support the idea, that the Qaṣīdah was an ancient poetic form in the Ḥigāz, which after all never fell under Himyarite rule. When Ḥigāzīs took up this poetic style, they, following Rabin’s suggestion, composed in the language of its source —Maʕadd.


    Altara - are you looking at this expansion into central Arabia as the source of South Arabian influence on Quranic vocabulary?
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #9929 - February 07, 2021, 01:05 AM
    https://twitter.com/Safaitic/status/1358085324837163010
    Quote
    If you are interested in the history of Christianity in Arabia and the background of the Arabic name for Jesus, be sure to register for this presentation of a fascinating new discovery on the subject. Feb 16.

    https://us02web.zoom.us/webinar/register/WN_whm8sgxEQUyBKemfBkiZgA

    Quote
    ACOR Lecture: "An invocation to Jesus in a Safaitic inscription?"

    Presented by: Dr. Ahmad Al-Jallad (Ohio State University)

    About the Lecture:

    The Safaitic inscriptions constitute the largest epigraphic corpus in Jordan. The term refers to the northern most branch of the South Semitic alphabet, a sister of the Ancient South Arabian script (musnad). The inscriptions, concentrated in the Syro-Jodanian Basalt Desert (the Ḥarrah), record the lifeways of the regions inhabitants some 2000 years ago. While the exact chronological limits of Safaitic are not known, scholars have assumed that the documentation ends around the 4th c. CE as there are no mentions of Christianity. This lecture will present a new inscription, discovered during the 2019 summer campaign of the Badia Surveys. It records an invocation to a new divinity, attested for the first time in Safaitic, that should likely be identified as Jesus. After the discussion of its reading and interpretation, I will explain the ramifications of this discovery on the history of Christianity in the region and the background of Quranic ʿysy.


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