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 Topic: Qur'anic studies today

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  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10050 - March 30, 2021, 04:04 PM
    Christ not son of God

    The idea might have been present here or there, but it was not main stream. The Quranic author  put that in his books with a theological purpose.

    The point is that the Quran is not a collection of bad quality translations or a by chance collection of marginal texts.

    The author had his own points he wanted to make and they are opposed to the core tenets of Christianity. Did he use Jewish or Christian material? Yes, but he adapted it to make his own points.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10051 - March 30, 2021, 05:34 PM
    Quote from: mundi on March 30, 2021, 02:30 PM
    Altara,

    It might be the Jews who first got this idea of the connection of Ishmael and the Arabs, but by the 6th C, that idea was all over the place.
    But the replacement of Isaac by Ismael (and thus the Arabs as chosen people) first appeared in the Quran, no? At least it is the first extant source that we have with this idea.


    I would not say 'replacement' as the authors have deliberately (for me...) hold to ambiguity about this topic (like others...). I'd say as the Quran is for Arabs, it is normal that they were 'officially' put to the same height than the Jews as they already were (since a rather long time)  sons of Ishmael.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10052 - March 30, 2021, 05:39 PM
    Quote from: mundi on March 30, 2021, 04:04 PM
    Christ not son of God

    The idea might have been present here or there, but it was not main stream. The Quranic author  put that in his books with a theological purpose.

    The point is that the Quran is not a collection of bad quality translations or a by chance collection of marginal texts.

    The author had his own points he wanted to make and they are opposed to the core tenets of Christianity. Did he use Jewish or Christian material? Yes, but he adapted it to make his own points.


    1/ Yes
    2/ Yes but why? I have a response ( I won't...)
    3/A very crafted work
    4/ Yes.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10053 - March 31, 2021, 04:25 AM
    Quote from: mundi on March 30, 2021, 04:04 PM
    Christ not son of God

    The idea might have been present here or there, but it was not main stream. The Quranic author  put that in his books with a theological purpose.

    Quote
    The point is that the Quran is not a collection of bad quality translations or a by chance collection of marginal texts.

    The author had his own points he wanted to make and they are opposed to the core tenets of Christianity. Did he use Jewish or Christian material? Yes, but he adapted it to make his own points.


    dear mundi., I agree with you that Quran is not a collection of bad quality translations., IN FACT IT IS NOT BIBLE TRANSLATION .. but it just uses bible stories and bible verses   and adds faith reinforcement statements to those bible stories ..  On top of that adds some junk here and there such as Surah 66. At-Tahrim with some 12 verses

    now your other point  on Christ not son of God

    Quote
    The idea might have been present here or there, but it was not main stream. The Quranic author  put that in his books with a theological purpose.


    I disagree with you ..  number of verses in many of those bible books  says   God can not/does not will not have any sons  or kids
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10054 - March 31, 2021, 10:33 AM
     but it just uses bible stories and bible verses 

    Quote
    I disagree with you ..  number of verses in many of those bible books  says   God can not/does not will not have any sons or kids


    That Jesus is the son of God comes from the Gospels of the NT.  That "number of verses in many of those bible books says God can not/does not will not have any sons or kids" is Quranic, not the OT.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10055 - March 31, 2021, 11:11 AM
    well you are very picky here dear Altara .,
    Quote from: Altara on March 31, 2021, 10:33 AM
    but it just uses bible stories and bible verses 

    You mean .,   same statements in different language expressing  in a very cryptic way ..  does that sound better??

    Quote
    That Jesus is the son of God comes from the Gospels of the NT.

    True NT WRITERS  did write that.,  and I consider   taking such statements from NT LITERALLY  as Jesus Christ literal son of god  is nonsense.,   even there.,    in many verses The writers made sure to stress  that  God is more powerful than  his son...... Jesus .. 

    Quote
    That "number of verses in many of those bible books says God can not/does not will not have any sons or kids" is Quranic, not the OT.

    No..no.. i think OT writers did write in many  OT books...  may be in NT also..  I MUST SAYS HERE I HAVE NOT READ  BIBLE end....end....word to word..
    Quote
    "God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? ....Numbers 23:19


    damn faith books.... their G_D is always .. he the  dick head.,    stupid books
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10056 - March 31, 2021, 11:37 AM
    Yeez,

    It is irrelevant that here or there you find in the OT a sentence that you could interprete this way or that way. Dont forget that the late Antique erudite did not have internet do do a search and launch a new interpretation of an obscure verse. Fact is that mainstream Christianity considered Jesus the son of God and thought it was perfectly compatible with the OT.

    The Quranic author stating the opposite is an attack against Christianity.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10057 - March 31, 2021, 12:57 PM
    Yeez, Mundi is right.

    Quote
    It is irrelevant that here or there you find in the OT a sentence that you could interprete this way or that way.

    Yes.
    Quote
    Fact is that mainstream Christianity [ Chalcedonians, Jacobites, Nestorians) considered Jesus the son of God and thought it was perfectly compatible with the OT.

    Yes.
    Quote
    The Quranic author stating the opposite is an attack against Christianity.

     
    The only target of the Quranic author(s) is Christianity.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10058 - March 31, 2021, 03:04 PM
    Quote
    The only target of the Quranic author(s) is Christianity.


    Yes, when writing the comment I was wondering if I should add Judaism. I didnt because I didn t have clear examples...
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10059 - March 31, 2021, 06:56 PM
    Yes, you do not, because there are not.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10060 - March 31, 2021, 07:28 PM
    Altara,

    there is the displacement of Isaac and the jews as the chosen people by Ismael and the Arabs. That will not have been popular in Jewish circles?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10061 - March 31, 2021, 08:01 PM
    Oh my goodness.,   how should I respond to this ?
    Quote from: mundi on March 31, 2021, 11:37 AM
    Yeez,

    It is irrelevant that here or there you find in the OT a sentence that you could interprete this way or that way. Dont forget that the late Antique erudite did not have internet do do a search and launch a new interpretation of an obscure verse. Fact is that mainstream Christianity considered Jesus the son of God and thought it was perfectly compatible with the OT.
    ...........................

     well — John Ray said —  What’s good for the goose is good for the gander.”

    May be I should rephrase your  statement dear mundi ....
     
    "It is irrelevant that here or there you find in the Quran a sentence that you could interpret this way or that way. Don't forget that the late Antique erudite did not have internet do do a search and launch a new interpretation of an obscure verse. Fact is the mainstream Christianity of that time who lived around Christ  considered "Jesus the son of God IS WRONG"  AND SOME  CHRISTIANS OF THAT TIME QUESTIONED THAT "Jesus the son of God"  and thought it was perfectly compatible with the OT."

    Does that sound right dear mundi? I would like you to change that the way you like to read it Cheesy
    Quote
    Quote from: mundi on March 31, 2021, 11:37 AM
    .....
    The Quranic author stating the opposite is an attack against Christianity.

    Quote from: Altara on March 31, 2021, 12:57 PM
    Yeez, Mundi is right.
    ........................


     THAT GUY.. CAN NOT BE QURANIC AUTHOR......  so I delete that., 

    May be that so-called Qur'anic author copied that from some Christian/Jewish sect preacher who may have preached that "Jesus was a man, not God"

    Yes Altara.,  mundi is right in the sense of so-called mainstream ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCHIANITY.,     CHURCHIANITY   may have interpreted that way., but So what??  May be that guy who wrote/said  that statements such as these
    Quote
    Jesus was a man, not God
    Jesus was not physically resurrected
    Jesus was a Jewish prophet with a mission of reconciliation
    Jesus was filled with divine inspiration
    Jesus is a supreme example of living with integrity and compassion
    Jesus' life is reflective of the divine potential in all of us

    was some Unitarian Christian /Christ follower/preacher   ..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10062 - March 31, 2021, 08:58 PM
    Quote from: mundi on March 31, 2021, 07:28 PM
    Altara,

    there is the displacement of Isaac and the jews as the chosen people by Ismael and the Arabs. That will not have been popular in Jewish circles?



    1/ Does the Quran says clearly that "there is the displacement of Isaac and the Jews as the chosen people by Ismael and the Arabs"  I do not think so.
    2/Who said to the Arabs that they  were sons of Abraham via Ishmael?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10063 - March 31, 2021, 09:09 PM
    Quote
    May be that so-called Qur'anic author copied that from some Christian/Jewish sect preacher who may have preached that "Jesus was a man, not God"


    Considering what is Christianity at the 2,3,4,5,6th c. "Jesus was a man, not God" is an anti Christian stance.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10064 - March 31, 2021, 09:43 PM
    Quote from: Altara on March 31, 2021, 09:09 PM
    Considering what is Christianity at the 2,3,4,5,6th c. "Jesus was a man, not God" is an anti Christian stance.

    You mean Anti-CHURCHIAN STANCE ??  from converted Roman Christians??

     and who knows what Christianity was in  2,3,4,5,6th c.?? ., it was all in flux ., and flexible

    Sure there were masonic Jewish folks around Jerusalem who opposed  "Jesus was   God" and must have propagated the idea that Jesus was a man, not God"

     
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10065 - March 31, 2021, 10:08 PM
    Quote
    You mean Anti-CHURCHIAN STANCE ??


    Nope Yeez, the history of Christianity is not the history of Christianity narrates by the Muslims who stress the  importance of the sects that believed that Jesus was not the son of God (like them). They existed, but they were not as important that the Muslims say. And they disappeared  at the end of the 4th c. No news since this time.
    So yes "Considering what is Christianity at the 2,3,4,5,6th c. "Jesus was a man, not God" is an anti Christian stance."

    Quote
    and who knows what Christianity was in  2,3,4,5,6th c.?? ., it was all in flux ., and flexible


    Not about the Jesus was the son of God (and God). We have sources. This belief is very early in Christianity contrary to what you can think. That is was contested, of course, but those ones were (never) capable to take the direction of the Church. Without doubt because they were very few.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10066 - March 31, 2021, 10:39 PM
    Quote from: Altara on March 31, 2021, 09:09 PM
    Considering what is Christianity at the 2,3,4,5,6th c. "Jesus was a man, not God" is an anti Christian stance.


    Does this mean that the author(s) and audience of the quranic texts saw themselves as breaking from Christianity, or would they have seen themselves as the only ones getting Christianity right?
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10067 - April 01, 2021, 06:11 AM
    Quote
    Does this mean that the author(s) and audience of the quranic texts saw themselves as breaking from Christianity, or would they have seen themselves as the only ones getting Christianity right?


    Maybe the Quranic author was steering Judaism in a new direction?

    Here an article about the meaning of the word "Islam "and how it relates to LA Jewish texts. I dont think it is possible for an outsider to have the Jewish reflexes in the Arabic text.

    https://www.academia.edu/33732057/Islām_Midrashic_Perspectives_on_a_Quranic_Term?email_work_card=thumbnail

    But then there is S19 in relation to the Katisma church (as Dye shows). Would it be possible for a Jew to have such detailed info about that?

    2 (or more) authors then?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10068 - April 01, 2021, 01:14 PM
    Considering what is Christianity at the 2,3,4,5,6th c. "Jesus was a man, not God" is an anti Christian stance.

    Quote from: zeca on March 31, 2021, 10:39 PM
    1/ Does this mean that the author(s) and audience of the quranic texts saw themselves as breaking from Christianity, 2/ or would they have seen themselves as the only ones getting Christianity right?


    1/ The author(s) considers breaking from Christianity is the core of what they proposes to their readers.
    2/  Nope (for me...) because this discussion from the middle of the 4th then5, 6 th c. is no more in the headlines (we have no sources after Epiphanius beginning of the 5th c.)
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10069 - April 01, 2021, 01:33 PM
    Quote from: mundi on April 01, 2021, 06:11 AM
    Maybe the Quranic author was steering Judaism in a new direction?
    But then there is S19 in relation to the Katisma church (as Dye shows). Would it be possible for a Jew to have such detailed info about that?
    2 (or more) authors then?

    1/Elaborate
    2/Scriptures seems to be public, there is no reason that anybody could not get what they want.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10070 - April 02, 2021, 07:07 AM
    New Judaism;

    1/The focus in the Quran is on OT themes, not on the NT ones.

    2/ The way of life the Quran prescribes (polygamy, circumcision, food rules, strict adherence to "laws", strict rituals) has much more in common with Judaism than with Christianity.

    3/ I think scholars like Zellentin would say, oh but the Didascalia Apostolorum shows us another Christianity that has a lot in common with the Quran.... I just dont understand that argument. That document is 3rd C not 5-6th C.
    If one does really want to compare the Quran with the Christian Didascalia then it seems that the Quran  kept all what the Didascalia has of Jewish influence and none of the Christian elements.

    4/Jesus is a completely downgraded figure in the Quran, a cardboard figure, with no real content.

    So imo the Quranic author(s) idea must have been much more to create a new form of Judaism than of Christianity.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10071 - April 02, 2021, 08:55 AM
    Quote
    3/ I think scholars like Zellentin would say, oh but the Didascalia Apostolorum shows us another Christianity that has a lot in common with the Quran.... I just dont understand that argument. That document is 3rd C not 5-6th C.


    Not only Zellentin, but Dye as well.

    Quote
    So imo the Quranic author(s) idea must have been much more to create a new form of Judaism than of Christianity.


    Then, who are best qualified to create a new form of Judaism?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10072 - April 02, 2021, 09:01 AM
    Quote from: mundi on April 02, 2021, 07:07 AM
    New Judaism;

    1/The focus in the Quran is on OT themes, not on the NT ones.

    2/ The way of life the Quran prescribes (polygamy, circumcision, food rules, strict adherence to "laws", strict rituals) has much more in common with Judaism than with Christianity.

    3/ I think scholars like Zellentin would say, oh but the Didascalia Apostolorum shows us another Christianity that has a lot in common with the Quran.... I just dont understand that argument. That document is 3rd C not 5-6th C.
    If one does really want to compare the Quran with the Christian Didascalia then it seems that the Quran  kept all what the Didascalia has of Jewish influence and none of the Christian elements.

    4/Jesus is a completely downgraded figure in the Quran, a cardboard figure, with no real content.

    So imo the Quranic author(s) idea must have been much more to create a new form of Judaism than of Christianity.

    you do have a logic in those points with reference to THEOLOGICAL THEME OF QURAN vs OT vs NT dear mundi...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10073 - April 02, 2021, 09:15 AM
    Quote from: Altara on April 02, 2021, 08:55 AM
    Then, who are best qualified to create a new form of Judaism?

    well the clergy and the rulers of that time ..   you often call often as  Knights  or  Knight Templar.. or whatever., and the clergy could be some sort of Jewish preacher/s  or .and the initial proto-Islam propagators , the so-called  Templars   .. You killed/replaced those Caliphs of Islam with  Templars  in your posts .,...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10074 - April 02, 2021, 09:36 AM
    Quote from: Altara on April 01, 2021, 01:33 PM
    1/Elaborate
    2/Scriptures seems to be public, there is no reason that anybody could not get what they want.

     Scriptures seems to be public  does not  mean PUBLIC READ THEM and public debate on pros and cons of those scriptures and their effects on the society. . Moreover these  so-called scripters were under the control of some rulers/clergies of those so called monasteries/temples/churches// whatever 

    People even today do not read scriptures though they are at their finger tips ..and think about that 2-6th century., How many people were there in those lands and how many could read/write  /get access to these so-called scriptural manuals?? 
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10075 - April 02, 2021, 09:47 AM
    Quote from: mundi on April 01, 2021, 06:11 AM
    Maybe the Quranic author was steering Judaism in a new direction?

    Here an article about the meaning of the word "Islam "and how it relates to LA Jewish texts. I dont think it is possible for an outsider to have the Jewish reflexes in the Arabic text.

    https://www.academia.edu/33732057/Islām_Midrashic_Perspectives_on_a_Quranic_Term?email_work_card=thumbnail

    But then there is S19 in relation to the Katisma church (as Dye shows). Would it be possible for a Jew to have such detailed info about that?

    2 (or more) authors then?

    I WOULD NOT CALL THEM as Quranic author.,  but you can  call them as  Pre-Quran manuscript writer/s.,    Quran is the book.... the present book mundi  ., it is a book put together with OT/NT stories to reinforce the the new  faith Islam.,  and   they also  added some junk in to it  in the name of   a created  prophet character "Muhammad" and some silly statements on his life
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10076 - April 02, 2021, 12:29 PM
    Quote
    Scriptures seems to be public  does not  mean PUBLIC READ THEM and public debate on pros and cons of those scriptures and their effects on the society. . Moreover these  so-called scripters were under the control of some rulers/clergies of those so called monasteries/temples/churches// whatever 


    It means that it is available to all literati who can be their own rulers.
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10077 - April 02, 2021, 12:51 PM
    1/ The article on the meaning of the word " islam", shows the author(s) were familiar with the rabbinic writings. Can that have been expected of a Christian writer? Those books (the Targums etc) were not available outside of certain Jewish milieus. That does narrow down who wrote the texts.

    2/ For me the Quran as a book (maybe a text here or there missing) exists from before 630 (C14 proves it). Maybe not all text material was original and might even from 6th C, but the collection itself seems to have been done with the purpose of making a theological point. So no Yeez, I dont think there is a pure core of Quranic texts corrupted by some later evil doers. WYSIWYG: there is material in the book that is acceptable to us 21st C people, and there is material that is totally unacceptable.  Maybe the Quranic author(s) should not be reduced to their worst Quranic ideas?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10078 - April 03, 2021, 12:15 AM
    Patricia Crone - Jewish Christianity and the Qurʾān

    Part 1: https://albert.ias.edu/bitstream/handle/20.500.12111/6517/Crone_2015_JewishChristianityQuran_I.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

    Part 2: https://albert.ias.edu/bitstream/handle/20.500.12111/6518/Crone_2016_JewishChristianityQuran_II.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y


    Other articles by Patricia Crone: https://albert.ias.edu/handle/20.500.12111/5495
    Which side are you on?
  • Qur'anic studies today
     Reply #10079 - April 03, 2021, 09:07 AM
    Quote from: Patricia Crone
    In what follows, I re-examine the question of whether there is a Jewish Christian input in the Qurʾān by examining the Qurʾānic topics of relevance to the subject, taking full account of Griffith’s position where known. The argument may be summarized as follows.40 Four points are extremely hard to explain without recourse to the hypothesis of a Jewish Christian contribution: the Qurʾānic Jesus is a prophet sent to the Israelites, not to the gentiles (no. 2); the Israelites appear to include Christians (no. 3); the Messenger sees Jesus as second in importance to Moses and as charged with confirmation of the Torah (no. 4), and insists that Jesus was only a human being, not the son of God (no. 9). Another two doctrines are often held to point away from Jewish Christianity, but actually point in that direction, too: some of the Messenger’s opponents regarded both Mary and Jesus as divine beings (no. 7), and the crucifixion is interpreted docetically—as though it did not really happen—even though the death of Jesus seems to be accepted (no. 10). Yet another doctrine, namely the virgin birth of Jesus, at first sight looks equally compatible with mainstream and some strands of Jewish Christianity, but must in fact also have come from a Jewish-Christian milieu (no. 11). Another is incompatible with mainstream Christianity and probably also of Jewish-Christian origin, namely that Mary was an Aaronid (no. 12); and the Qurʾānic chain of prophets may be related to that of the Elchasaites and other Jewish Christians, though this is much less obvious to me than it was to Schoeps, Andrae, and others (no. 13). Two further elements of Qurʾānic Christology are incompatible with mainstream Christianity without pointing in a Jewish-Christian direction: the Messenger seems to think that Jesus was born under a palm tree rather than in a cave or stable (no. 14); and although he calls him al-masīḥ (Christ) and al-kalima (the Word), he does not credit Jesus with the characteristic features of the Christian messiah or present him as the logos in the Christian sense (no. 15). All in all, a full seven doctrines, several of them central to the Qurʾān, point to the presence of Jewish Christians in the Messenger’s locality, and since they are attested in Egypt in the seventh century (no. 8 ), there is nothing particularly hazardous about postulating that they were present in Arabia too.

    Which side are you on?
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