Qur'anic studies today

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Reply #10470 - October 22, 2021, 12:06 AM

Thread: https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1451307262660812800
Quote
This verse of the Sanaa palimpsest needed a bit more study rather than discuss on the spot. The variant in the Sanaa palimpsest at Q9:18 is interesting, but the context is important. This 'variant' when taken out of context looks spectacular, but it's clearly an error.

(This refers back to the discussion in the video on the previous page)

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Reply #10471 - October 22, 2021, 12:18 AM

Al-Jallad and Sidky - A Paleo-Arabic inscription on a route north of Ṭāʾif

https://www.academia.edu/59258176/Al_Jallad_and_Sidky_2021_A_Paleo_Arabic_inscription_on_a_route_north_of_Ṭāʾif
Quote
This paper will produce a new edition of the Rīʿ al- Zallālah inscription, discussing in detail its paleographic features and content, and the ramifications it has on our understanding of the linguistic and religious milieu of the sixth– early seventh century Ḥigāz.

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Reply #10472 - October 24, 2021, 11:30 PM

Quote from: mundi on October 21, 2021, 02:43 PM
I wouldn't overestimate the need to understand the Quranic text to get converted.

Yes, the 637 Arabs grunts were surely not aware of why their leaders built on the Temple Mount.
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Reply #10473 - October 25, 2021, 07:22 AM

Altara,

Maybe the converts were aware of the buildig on the Temple mount. Who knows. There must have been some communication to get converts and keep the group together.
But that would be a list of some 'talking points', not complicated texts and boring recitations. On the other hand, the building of the house could have been a good one to get the base inspired.
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Reply #10474 - October 25, 2021, 12:44 PM

Quote from: Altara on October 24, 2021, 11:30 PM
Yes, the 637 Arabs grunts were surely not aware of why their leaders built on the Temple Mount.

Altara says that to these mundi words..
Quote from: mundi on October 21, 2021, 02:43 PM
I wouldn't overestimate the need to understand the Quranic text to get converted.

Did Ambrosius convert the Freese (North Holland savages) by them understanding the Latin bible texts (translated or not)? Of course not.

That would be an insentive to convert.

When does the average person convert?
1/ The king converts and he tells his subject to follow or else...
2/ There is an advantage in lifestyle (eg polygamy, concubines)
3/ Tax advantages

The list can get very long full of wordly reasons to convert. I doubt that eg the hearing of Surah 2 is in it...

well mundi's post is nothing to do with the events in the year 637. nothing to do with Arabs grunts and nothing to do with rebuilding of Temple Mount.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

well I wrote that some 12hrs before mundi posted response to Altara but did not put on to the board., And mundi posted something above this post, that appears to be vey little to do with Islam and converts ., MAY BE THERE WERE NO CONVERT IN 637 and CERTAINLY NO QURAN THE BOOK but just a sect of some Christian or Jewish faith that were preaching from same sermons that they learned/read from OT/NT.... off course in Arabic/multilingual faith followers...

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #10475 - October 25, 2021, 04:33 PM

Quote from: zeca on October 22, 2021, 12:06 AM
Thread: https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1451307262660812800
(This refers back to the discussion in the video on the previous page)

what is up "i before j" ?? Having fun with Quran verses??

Quote
https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1451307262660812800

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkMqKB5SM1A

This verse of the Sanaa palimpsest needed a bit more study rather than discuss on the spot. The variant in the Sanaa palimpsest at Q9:18 is interesting, but the context is important. This 'variant' when taken out of context looks spectacular, but it's clearly an error

No...nooooooo...nooo., what error are you talking about "i before j" ?? ..

YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO ANALYZE QURAN AS WORD OF ALLAH../GOD ....whatever....... but a wonderful Arabic song or at best a prayer song for Allah/God for folks who read/write in Arabic...

here listen to Surah Tawbah

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdpNmaojkD0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ox2E9s2N0ZU

AND .. And this Surah Tawbah is actually sermonizing what mundi is highlighting here

Quote from: mundi on October 21, 2021, 02:43 PM
I wouldn't overestimate the need to understand the Quranic text to get converted.

...................

When does the average person convert?
1/ The king converts and he tells his subject to follow or else...
2/ There is an advantage in lifestyle (eg polygamy, concubines)
3/ Tax advantages

The list can get very long full of wordly reasons to convert. ..............

Surah 9 fits very well in that category of what mundi highlighted in that post

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #10476 - October 29, 2021, 09:56 AM

Ilkka Lindstedt - Arabic rock inscriptions up to 750 CE

https://www.academia.edu/44793341/Arabic_rock_inscriptions_up_to_750_CE_in_The_Umayyad_World_

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Reply #10477 - October 29, 2021, 10:04 AM

Robert Hoyland - Why was Jerusalem important to the first Muslims?

https://blog.oup.com/2018/10/why-was-jerusalem-important-to-muslims/

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Reply #10478 - October 29, 2021, 10:07 AM

Real Talk with Robert Hoyland
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CI5vDHDb93w
Quote
Robert G. Hoyland is a scholar and historian, specializing in the medieval history of the Middle East. He is currently Professor of Late Antique and Early Islamic Middle Eastern History at New York University’s Institute for the Study of the Ancient World, having previously been Professor of Islamic history at the University of Oxford’s Faculty of Oriental Studies and a Professor of history at the University of St. Andrews and UCLA.

Hoyland’s best-known academic work Seeing Islam as Others Saw It is a contribution to early Islamic historiography, being a survey of non-Muslim eyewitness accounts of that period. Hoyland also received much attention with his work In God’s Path: The Arab Conquests and the Creation of an Islamic Empire (2014) in which he questions the traditional Islamic view of the Early Muslim conquests.

Books by Robert G. Hoyland
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Robert-G-Hoyland/e/B001IXPT40/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1

Robert G. Hoyland | New York University - Academia.edu
https://nyu.academia.edu/RobertHoyland

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Reply #10479 - October 29, 2021, 10:13 AM

Robert Hoyland - Newly Re-discovered Arabic Papyri of Early Islamic Nessana

https://www.academia.edu/51633301/Newly_Re_discovered_Arabic_Papyri_of_Early_Islamic_Nessana

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Reply #10480 - October 29, 2021, 10:20 AM

Robert Hoyland - History Writing in the Time of Islam's Beginnings

https://www.academia.edu/48927537/History_Writing_in_the_Time_of_Islams_Beginnings

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Reply #10481 - October 30, 2021, 08:58 AM

Real Talk with Dr. Peter Webb: (pt.1) The Rise of Arab Communities
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJZMyiNpOTU
Quote
Lecturer in Arabic at Leiden University and a specialist in the cultural history of the Muslim world. Peter has travelled extensively across the Middle East and Central Asia and has studied at the Universities of Damascus and Isfahan. He held a fellowship at the Museum of Islamic Art, Berlin, where he researched Muslim architecture and Arabic calligraphy, studying monuments of medieval Egypt and Uzbekistan. In Oman, he studied pre-Islamic sites and local shrines dedicated to ancient Arabian prophets in as part of his current research focus on the legends and history of Arabia. His publications include Imagining the Arabs (Edinburgh University Press, 2016), a comprehensive exploration of the Arab people in early Islam, and The Arab Thieves (Brill, 2019), a critical study of Arabian outlaw tales.

For more from Dr. Peter Webb, please checkout:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Peter-Webb/e/B06X9ZWNCG/ref=dp_byline_cont_book_1.

https://brill.com/view/title/38805

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Reply #10482 - October 30, 2021, 09:03 AM

Arab Origins: Identity, History and Islam – Peter Webb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_FO0Xj-FLo

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Reply #10483 - October 30, 2021, 10:44 AM

Thread: https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1454176676523528196
Quote
Sūrat Maryam (Q19) is well-known among scholars of the Quran for having a highly conspicuous passage (http://quran.com/19/34-40) which must be an interpolation.
The question however is: when was this section interpolated into the Quran? Manuscript evidence can give us some hints.

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Reply #10484 - October 30, 2021, 10:53 AM

https://twitter.com/michael_pregill/status/1454235164721090564
Quote
Really superb thread, Marijn! I have thoughts, the main one being this: it has really come to feel to me like much of the work that is done on the Uthmanic text is directed at proving the early stabilization of the text (pace Wansbrough in particular)...

But this work does nothing to tell us of the origins of the text or verify its association with the historical Muhammad. In other words, JW was certainly wrong in asserting (however casually) that the Qur'an was written in Baghdad by a bunch of rabbis in the ninth century.

But what of the pre-canonical history of the text? Why must we accept that the Uthmanic version is the original version? That is, what of the pre-Uthmanic Qurans that were collated into "our" Qur'an?

I recall having an interesting discussion with @GabrielSaidR in 2015 when he was writing about Fideli's work on the Birmingham ms. The carbon dating suggests a possible window of origin *before* the prophetic floruit, as Gabriel pointed out, though people often ignore that.

The case of Q 19 just reinforces the idea that "our" Quran likely came into circulation, or at least was widely disseminated, around the time of the conquests, but that there is so much more to think about in terms of the text's compositional backstory. Anyway, great work!

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Reply #10485 - October 30, 2021, 01:24 PM

https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1454238474006040576
Quote
I certainly agree! Some quick thoughts before I hit the sack:
1. The Birmingham Quran is certainly 'Uthmanic', in light of other data I'd certainly want to place that indeed in Uthman's reign.
2. The Ṣanʿāʾ palimpsest (or at least its text type) is certainly pre-Uthmanic!

So the very fact that a pre-Uthmanic text contains what is recognised broadly as an "obvious interpolation" *really* complicates the picture, and it's important to take into account when speculating about its compositional history.

One might imagine that Sūrat Maryam is (with its unique rhyming pattern) in its essence is not the prophet's own composition, but some pre-Islamic Christian "Sūrah", and that the contribution of the prophet is exactly the interpolation of these dechristianizing verses.

But that hypothesis can now be floated much more confidently because we know that 1. the verses were certainly part of the Uthmanic text and 2. the verses were certainly part to the shared origin from which the Uthmanic text, companion codices and Ṣanʿāʾ palimpsest descend!

https://twitter.com/michael_pregill/status/1454257174901772290
Quote
Yeah, I was too casual in throwing around the "Uthmanic" - I guess what I should have said was "the early witnesses that generally constellate around the canonical text." But your point about *all* the witnesses having the interpolations is the big, clarifying takeaway for me.

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Reply #10486 - October 30, 2021, 01:44 PM

Quote from: zeca on October 30, 2021, 09:03 AM
Arab Origins: Identity, History and Islam – Peter Webb
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-_FO0Xj-FLo

I am not going to watch that tube ., neither I read that book

but WHAT IS THAT WORD "IDENTITY " MEANS

should I read those words as.,

Islam originated and started by Arabs??
Islam is religion of a language that is "Arabic" where some writers of that time copy/pasted stories from OT & NT in to Arabic language from other languages?
or........Islam is a religion of "Arabs" ?

Frankly Speaking .. Islam is nothing to do with Arabs., Islam is nothing to do with Arabia., And Islam is nothing to do with Arabic language .... "BUT ISLAM IS A RELIGION/FAITH OF CONVERTS "., It makes no difference whether the converts are from Arabia or Australia, Angola, Argentina , Andorra or Al-Andalus ......... To start with the rule is simple....

TO START WITH
ISLAM WAS A SIMPLE FAITH
IN FACT ISLAM IS A SIMPLE FAITH
IT STARTED WITH
THERE IS NO GOD BUT GOD
BUT THE SCOUNDRELS JOINED ISLAM
THEY BECAME WARLORDS WITH IN THE ISLAM
AND THEY USERPED POLITICAL POWERS
AND THEY CREATED A CARTOON CHARCATER "MUHAMMAD"
AND THEY MADE HIM PROPHET .. THE LAST PROHET
AND THEY WROTE SOME GOOD
AND THEY WROTE SOME JUNK STORIES ON HIS NAME .,
THE PRESENT ISLAM IS A PRODUCT OF THAT 4
AND IT IS NOTHING TO DO WITH
THE ORIGINAL TENET OF ISALM
AND THAT IS

THERE IS NO GOD BUT GOD

Hmm Instead of that video., let me watch this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__Czlg1xLJA

interesting parallel here with reference to the "Enquiry on Faith & Enquiry on SCIENCE "., It all appears to be who narrates what and how good one is to propagate the propaganda

and in this 21st century, that goes to science and that goes to research in Science and research on faiths/their origins at the Universities where faculties write papiers/books on faith FOR THE SAKE OF "FUNDING".. specially in west

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #10487 - October 30, 2021, 01:57 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on October 30, 2021, 01:44 PM
I am not going to watch that tube ., neither I read that book

The Real Talk interview with Peter Webb is worth watching even if you give the book a miss.

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Reply #10488 - October 30, 2021, 03:11 PM

Quote from: zeca on October 30, 2021, 10:44 AM
Thread: https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1454176676523528196

Quote
This makes it it clear that the common ancestor of all these companion codices, that is the "prophetic archetype" already had these interpolations. That makes it quite likely that the prophet himself interpolated these verse at some point during his career.

34-40 is a 'physical' interpolation added by the same authors who have written down 1-33 and 41-98.
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Reply #10489 - October 30, 2021, 03:33 PM

Quote from: zeca on October 30, 2021, 01:57 PM
The Real Talk interview with Peter Webb is worth watching even if you give the book a miss.

Ooops .. zeca you are right ., I watched once after you said that.. and it is indeed very important video ., Now I have to watch it again very carefully and also read that book., Dr. Webb does have point there

Thank you....

and I am glad to know from your twit link that "i before j" likes that Canadian Egyptian Mustafa Khattab Quarn translation

Quote from: zeca on October 30, 2021, 10:44 AM
Thread: https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1454176676523528196

well let me see what Mustafa Khattab did with Quarn

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #10490 - November 01, 2021, 10:11 PM

Patricia Crone - Jewish Christianity and the Qurʾān

(Part 1) https://albert.ias.edu/bitstream/handle/20.500.12111/6517/Crone_2015_JewishChristianityQuran_I.pdf

(Part 2) https://albert.ias.edu/bitstream/handle/20.500.12111/6518/Crone_2016_JewishChristianityQuran_II.pdf

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Reply #10491 - November 03, 2021, 02:18 PM

Patricia Crone has (unfortunately) not seizing what really happened: she was totally lost as shown by her article about the religion of the Quranic pagans: P. Crone, " The Religion of the Qurʾānic Pagans : God and the Lesser Deities ", Arabica 57, 2010, 151-200."
In this (last) one the same reflection can be made.
Sometimes she asked some good questions particularly in: "How Did the Quranic Pagans Make a Living?", Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 68, No. 3 (2005), pp. 387-399.
But she never was able to make sense of what she has 'discovered' and the questions she posed whereas she seems to have understood (Hagarism, Meccan trade) that there was many issues.
Do not get me wrong here, Crone is a great scholar and a great inspiration for others. But she did not make it to propose something coherent , I think, by pusillanimity.
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Reply #10492 - November 03, 2021, 03:44 PM

Forthcoming book (open access)

Marijn van Putten - Quranic Arabic From its Hijazi Origins to its Classical Reading Traditions

https://brill.com/view/title/61587
Quote
What was the language of the Quran like, and how do we know? Today, the Quran is recited in ten different reading traditions, whose linguistic details are mutually incompatible. This work uncovers the earliest linguistic layer of the Quran. It demonstrates that the text was composed in the Hijazi vernacular dialect, and that in the centuries that followed different reciters started to classicize the text to a new linguistic ideal, the ideal of the ʿarabiyyah. This study combines data from ancient Quranic manuscripts, the medieval Arabic grammarians and ample data from the Quranic reading traditions to arrive at new insights into the linguistic history of Quranic Arabic.

https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1455461015987134464

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Reply #10493 - November 03, 2021, 04:02 PM

From that twitter thread:
Quote
I have a question: how reliable are the medieval grammarians information about dialects in the hijazi during the time of the prophet, since the grammarians are writing sometime after. Will you be providing evidence for their reliability? thanks

Quote
I will be providing some arguments for their reliability yes. But it's not a time gap that can be bridged entirely without problems, and there's at least one feature that the grammarians consistently identify as Najdi, which was clearly part of Hijazi of the 7th century!

But I do make an argument for their reports (filtered through some normative views of grammar), must at least be accurate at the time those reports start appearing (late second century). Too much overlap between independent sources, and not used for ideological battles.

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Reply #10494 - November 03, 2021, 04:50 PM

Quote from: zeca on October 30, 2021, 01:24 PM
https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1454238474006040576
https://twitter.com/michael_pregill/status/1454257174901772290

https://twitter.com/tom47748/status/1454614844653645828
Quote
An issue is that many scholars partial to the approach you mention (eg Dye), are yet to budge from an Abd al-Malik standardisation date. T Tesei is the only credentialed scholar I know of who both unflinchingly follows Wansbrough’s approach & accepts an Uthmanic stabilisation

iirc, Tesei has in fact outright said somewhere that the #1 goal in quranic studies should be to figure out the pre-history of the Uthmanic quran, using the methods employed by Wansbrough

Unfortunately many folks who would be useful in such an endeavour are still busy locating a post-Uthmanic context for various anti-Xtian passages, to give just one example. I wish they would redirect their energies to the questions you mention

To be clear I actually think Prof Tesei has the wrong answers to some of the above questions, but he’s definitely asking the right questions! More people working along those lines would be fantastic!

https://twitter.com/PhDniX/status/1454738008670867456
Quote
I agree it's an important line of inquiry, and as you said more grounded in the actual facts, which means that whatever discoveries they make don't have to be chucked into the bin immediately for it being in evident contradiction with reality.

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Reply #10495 - November 03, 2021, 05:31 PM

Tommaso Tesei - Echoes of Pseudepigrapha in the Qur'ān

https://www.academia.edu/45649786/_Echoes_of_Pseudepigrapha_in_the_Qurān_uncorrected_proofs_

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Reply #10496 - November 03, 2021, 05:32 PM

I'll read carefully MVP book .
MVP does not seize that it is mandatory that the grammarians ground their sacred history one way or another with what they believed (in good faith since they believed that it happened) : a man in Mecca/Medina has produced the Quran. Therefore all 'historical' affirmations of the 'sacred history' have to be confirmed. All have been constructed to fit what they believed happened.
I do not know what means 'Hijaz' or 'Najd' (and MVP too....) all these categories have been invented by the grammarians and the narrators: We are dependent on their informations: they are judge and jury. So all what they said have to be checked and it is (very) difficult because they cannot be neutral as they believed that what they think happened is historical.
This is the situation in which we are.
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Reply #10497 - November 03, 2021, 05:51 PM

I suppose a fundamental question is whether links can be made with archaeological/epigraphic evidence from the Hijaz. I'd be interested to see if he comes up with any arguments along these lines.

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Reply #10498 - November 03, 2021, 08:20 PM

He is prudent : "I will be providing some arguments for their reliability yes. But it's not a time gap that can be bridged entirely without problems, […]"
I look forward to the book.
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Reply #10499 - November 03, 2021, 08:42 PM

Robert Kerr - The Original Islamic Hajj to Jerusalem

https://www.academia.edu/45027659/The_Original_Islamic_Hajj_To_Jerusalem

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Topic: Qur'anic studies today

zeca

Reply #10470 - October 22, 2021, 12:06 AM

zeca

Reply #10471 - October 22, 2021, 12:18 AM

Altara

Reply #10472 - October 24, 2021, 11:30 PM

mundi

Reply #10473 - October 25, 2021, 07:22 AM

yeezevee

Reply #10474 - October 25, 2021, 12:44 PM

yeezevee

Reply #10475 - October 25, 2021, 04:33 PM

zeca

Reply #10476 - October 29, 2021, 09:56 AM

zeca

Reply #10477 - October 29, 2021, 10:04 AM

zeca

Reply #10478 - October 29, 2021, 10:07 AM

zeca

Reply #10479 - October 29, 2021, 10:13 AM

zeca

Reply #10480 - October 29, 2021, 10:20 AM

zeca

Reply #10481 - October 30, 2021, 08:58 AM

zeca

Reply #10482 - October 30, 2021, 09:03 AM

zeca

Reply #10483 - October 30, 2021, 10:44 AM

zeca

Reply #10484 - October 30, 2021, 10:53 AM

zeca

Reply #10485 - October 30, 2021, 01:24 PM

yeezevee

Reply #10486 - October 30, 2021, 01:44 PM

zeca

Reply #10487 - October 30, 2021, 01:57 PM

Altara

Reply #10488 - October 30, 2021, 03:11 PM

yeezevee

Reply #10489 - October 30, 2021, 03:33 PM

zeca

Reply #10490 - November 01, 2021, 10:11 PM

Altara

Reply #10491 - November 03, 2021, 02:18 PM

zeca

Reply #10492 - November 03, 2021, 03:44 PM

zeca

Reply #10493 - November 03, 2021, 04:02 PM

zeca

Reply #10494 - November 03, 2021, 04:50 PM

zeca

Reply #10495 - November 03, 2021, 05:31 PM

Altara

Reply #10496 - November 03, 2021, 05:32 PM

zeca

Reply #10497 - November 03, 2021, 05:51 PM

Altara

Reply #10498 - November 03, 2021, 08:20 PM

zeca

Reply #10499 - November 03, 2021, 08:42 PM

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