Your view on religious debates

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- questioner
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Your view on religious debates
OP - November 11, 2014, 09:00 AM

Do you think the debate format is good at discovering the truth? Hamza Tzortzis has had many debates with atheists, but I always end up confused and I probably miss a lot. Tzortzis is debating Dr. Arif Ahmed, senior lecturer of Philosophy at Cambridge on the 19th on November, i'll definitely be watching that. I notice that a lot of the debates are hosted by Islamic societies, do you think they try to make the debate an unfair playing field (unqualified speaker, majority Muslim audience, sneaky editing etc)?
- cosmicdancer
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Reply #1 - November 11, 2014, 10:13 AM

The problem with public debates is that someone may know his stuff very well but is not a good public communicator and not good in debates.

Hamza on the other hand doesn't know much but he is very good at public debates, he is familiar with all the tactics of sophistry and knows a lot of meaningless buzz-words and plays to his audience, inciting laughter, derision and playing to popularist sentiments.

Plus these debates inevitably have a mostly Muslim audience. I went to one of his debates at a London medical Uni - I forget the name - and they were basically all his fan-boys (and fan-girls) and made noises right on cue whenever he snapped his finger.

It's impossible to win a debate in such circumstances even if on impartial reflection one produce the better case.

It's a cheap, razamataz public performance - not a serious scholarly debate.
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Reply #2 - November 11, 2014, 12:40 PM

Did you get the chance to ask any questions at the end of the debate abu? You should have called him out on his linguistic miracle nonesense.
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Reply #3 - November 11, 2014, 04:17 PM

Religious debates are arguments about nothing.

वासुदैव कुटुम्बकम्
Entire World is One Family
سارا سنسار ايک پريوار ہے
- Tonyt
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Reply #4 - November 11, 2014, 04:52 PM

Quote from: Abu Ali on November 11, 2014, 10:13 AM
Plus these debates inevitably have a mostly Muslim audience.

If the audience is mainly Muslim then what is the point of it? Who is he giving Dawah too?
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Reply #5 - November 11, 2014, 06:02 PM

Preaching to the choir perhaps.

No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
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Reply #6 - November 11, 2014, 06:28 PM

Hamza and co tend to rely on tactics that are well-suited for public debates, but, like Hamza found out the hard way, any attempt to write scholarly articles falls flat on its face as soon as someone with half a mind to write a rebuttal comes along. Their strategies and arguments are card tricks, all speed and flair and sleight of hands, and it dazzles the stupid, appeals to those looking for validation, and is tricky to adequately address if you're unprepared and hearing this nonsense for the first time.

Hamza relies on talking fast--so fast that the audience doesn't have time to keep up. Nor can they understand his pseudoscientific arguments, as he's using claims so far out of his realm of knowledge that he couldn't even give us a TL;DR version of the concept he's employing. And yes, they've intentionally debated with people who were not well-versed in Islamic issues and who spent much of the time seeming genuinely unsure of how one would handle such a stupid premise as the inimitiability of the Quran.

It's not like I think they will always have the upper hand in debates. Eventually, they're not going to be able to skillfully avoid debating the people who know their stuff. If they're successful at all in gaining attention, their future opponents will know what the song and dance is and prepare ahead of time. And hopefully the actual scientists of repute will realize that they shouldn't agree to degrade themselves and wrestle in the mud with these Dawah peddlers until even a single one of them can pass a rudimentary physics course.
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Reply #7 - November 11, 2014, 06:46 PM

Quote from: questioner on November 11, 2014, 09:00 AM
Do you think the debate format is good at discovering the truth? Hamza Tzortzis has had many debates with atheists, but I always end up confused and I probably miss a lot. Tzortzis is debating Dr. Arif Ahmed, senior lecturer of Philosophy at Cambridge on the 19th on November, i'll definitely be watching that. I notice that a lot of the debates are hosted by Islamic societies, do you think they try to make the debate an unfair playing field (unqualified speaker, majority Muslim audience, sneaky editing etc)?

Truth is rarely discovered in debates, unless it is the truth that one at the debate is a hack. Hence why science and philosophy both at least has some sort of peer-review process. Debates are about convincing the audience, nothing more. The Islamic groups sponsor such events as Islam is a proselytizing religion. These events gain new religious members or shore up the "troops" so to speak.
- Lilyesque
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Reply #8 - November 11, 2014, 07:02 PM

As people say, debates are not about convincing the opponent, it is about convincing the audience and making them think. This can be during the debate, or afterwards as a mix of questioning and information gathering including debates.
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Reply #9 - November 12, 2014, 05:10 PM

Quote from: Tonyt on November 11, 2014, 04:52 PM
If the audience is mainly Muslim then what is the point of it? Who is he giving Dawah too?

I should make one of those Mastercard adverts with Hamza's face - you know the one's that say: Priceless!

i.e.

Hire of Uni Hall - £100
Expenses for Atheist speaker - £40
Sound system & recording & specialist editing - £150

Video evidence of Islam defeating Atheism & giving Da'wa to thousands via the interweb - Priceless!
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Reply #10 - November 12, 2014, 09:02 PM

Debates reveal more about the debater than they do about the subject under debate.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!

No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
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