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Theme Changer

 Topic: Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam

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  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     OP - November 11, 2014, 08:01 PM

    As usual, these things tend to be blindingly obvious once pointed out.  In Guillaume Dye's fantastic critical review of the "The Qur'an in Context" (unfortunately his review is in French), he makes a point of showing that the Noldeke chronological paradigm of surah interpretation, which is followed by Neuwirth et al, cannot work because of the interpolation problem.  In other words, trying to interpret the surahs as being written in chronological sequence where later surahs 'reply' to earlier surahs is impossible when one considers that the surahs were slowly cobbled together from more archaic sub-elements, including later interpolations and modifications.  Thus the idea of a chronological sequence of discrete surahs is illusory, because the Qur'an was not composed in a discrete surah-by-surah fashion, with one surah finished and then the next written.  Here is Dye's review (use Google translate if you cannot read French).

    http://www.academia.edu/4287472/Le_Coran_et_son_contexte._Remarques_sur_un_ouvrage_r%C3%A9cent

    Dye criticizes Neuwirth's attempt to read the Qur'an's discussion of Mary in such a chronological sequence.  Neuwirth argues that the "Medinan" account of Mary given in Surah 3:33-63 is a later response to the "Meccan" account of Mary in Surah 19:1-63, a replay that responds in a Medinan context to what had been previously articulated in the Meccan context of Surah 19.  According to Neuwirth, the later Medinan composition revised the Mary message because it (1) 'reached out' to Christians, trying to build bridges with them; and (2) tackled Abrahamic scriptural authority more directly.

    But as Dye points out, that assumes that Surah 19 was composed as an organic whole.  And it certainly is not.  Specifically, the virulently anti-trinitarian portions of Surah 19 are crudely interpolated into a very pro-Christian base text, and this is easily shown because they also impose a radical break on the rhyme scheme -- typically one of the most obvious signs of later interpolation.  It appears that a section of anti-trinitarian couplets was jammed into what appeared to the later composers as an objectionably pro-Christian text about Mary.

    Specifically, Surah 19:1-33 consists of declarations that follow the Syriac literary genre known as 'sogitha.'  Statements that could have come directly from any Christian text are made throughout.  At Surah 19:34, however, this genre is abandoned, as is the rhyme scheme, in a virulently anti-trinitarian section (33-40) that now uses a completely different rhyme scheme than 19:1-33 does.  As Dye says, "The most logical conclusion is that it is an interpolation.  In other words, the original version of Q 19:1-63 did not contain 19:34-40.  From the point of view of its content, it is a text which is not anti-Christian -- it is hard to see how we could be closer to Christianity."

    Dye is not the first scholar to point out that 19:34-40 is an interpolation, but he's the first to point out how this wrecks any attempt to interpret the Qur'an in the context of an assumed simple chronological transition between a Meccan and Medinan context.  As he says, we actually have no idea when 19:34-40 was interpolated, where, or by whom.  Just that it was interpolated to make an anti-trinitarian point.  And this makes Neuwirth's attempt to analyze Surah 3:33-63 as 'Medinan rapprochement' with Christians completely useless.

    Dye also rips on Neuwirth for claiming that her analysis is purely 'internal' to the Qur'an.  This is like arguing that one's analysis of Qur'anic Arabic is purely 'internal' to the Qur'an -- it's a meaningless tautology.  The Qur'an itself does not expressly state the circumstances of its composition; any specific answer to that question cannot be presumed 'internal' to the text, and any analysis based on such presumed circumstances is not 'internal' either -- it is based on accepting extrinsic Muslim tradition from centuries later.  The fact that a scholar like Neuwirth misses this fundamental point underscores the deadening influence of the Noldekian/Muslim tradition.

    Dye further notes that the one specific date we have in Qur'anic composition is, fascinatingly, for Surah 18:83-102, where Van Bladel has shown that the account of the Legend of Alexander that the Qur'an gives includes features distinctive to the Syriac apocalyptic text, composed in 629-630, that attempts to portray Heraclius' recent victories as fulfillment of the Alexandrian prophecy.  The Qur'anic section of Surah 18 must have been composed after this date, since it copies -- and seemingly even approves -- Byzantine Heraclian propaganda.  But this very late date for Surah 18 composition (it could have been many years after 630, but it cannot have been earlier -- the Syriac text composition gives a cutoff for the earliest date of composition, but not the latest) is impossible if the Noldekian paradigm of surah sequences is taken to reflect any real historical composition!  And this very late composition date for Surah 18 (allegedly 'Meccan'!!) is totally inconsistent with traditional Muslim chronology about the time and circumstances when the surahs were 'revealed.'

    Dye makes numerous other fascinating points, but I thought I'd share these few because I think he deserves to be more widely known, and also because the idea of a coherent Meccan/Medinan chronology of surah composition tends to afflict Qur'anic studies like a bad hangover ... the actual text composition being a far more complex, protracted, and multi-faceted process involving multiple 'authors.'  Open question:  How much of the Qur'an actually reflects Mohammed's own thoughts at all?  Are all these shifting viewpoints (the original Surah 19:1-63 sans 33-40, or the 33-40 interpolation, or the 3:1-63 composition) themselves reflective of Mohammed constantly changing his mind over the years (which I think is an untenable hypothesis)?  Or does just one of them reflect his 'real' view, the others being impositions by different factions who composed or modified what became Qur'anic texts?  Or are all three conflicting approaches to Mary being imputed to Mo by different factions, editors, composers, and revisers over the decades -- Mo's real view on the subject being unknown to us or different altogether?  These fascinating questions remain to be answered.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #1 - November 11, 2014, 11:44 PM

    Been eager to get out of class so I could post on this!

    I was reading Fred Donner's Muhammad and the Believers and was struck by how easily Christian and Jewish civilizations submitted to Islamic rule. Certainly, trinitarian Christians who so vehemently persecuted and attacked what they saw as "heretical" Christian sects such as Arians, Nestorians, and Monophysites who (relatively to Islamic doctrine) hardly differed in doctrines would strive hard against being put under the rule of people who denied the trinity and even rejected the divinity of Jesus! It would seem as if the initial Islamic expansion did not care too much about trinitarian doctrine and was alright with Christians and Jews as long as they were faithfully committed to one God and to being righteous. The Jews and Christians saw being ruled over by the Arabs as an improvement over being ruled by the Byzantines or the Persians. I don't see the vast majority of Christians as being ok with being ruled by heretics who considered trinitarian doctrine to be blasphemous. This would be consistent with the anti-trinitarian verses being a later interpolation from when Islam was actually emerging as a separate religion

    Anyway, I have tried to read the section on the Alexander Legend in the Quran by Van Bladel but google books only lets me preview a brief portion of the chapter. Why is it certain that the Syriac Legend was not somehow based on the Quran while it was still in its oral stages? If that can be demonstrated that indeed would be a huge hit on the traditional chronology.


    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #2 - November 12, 2014, 12:24 AM

    On your latter point the reason is because the Syriac Legend incorporates Heraclius's *recent* victories and battles into its prophetic narrative (unlike previous versions of the Alexander romance), and the Qur'an repeats those specific new details.  This cannot have happened prior to those victories actually happening, and we have excellent historical sources on those dates within Byzantine history.  Here is Van Bladel explaining the dating, and he relies heavily on the scholar Reinink.  The explanations are extraordinarily detailed and convincing:

    "The next part of the story is crucial to dating the text. Alexander puts an inscription on the gate containing a prophecy for events to follow his lifetime. These events are given precise dates. First he says that after 826 years, the Huns will break through the gate and go by the pass above the Haloras River14 to plunder the lands. Then after 940 years, there will come a time of sin and unprecedented worldwide war. “The Lord will gather together the kings and their hosts,” he will give a signal to break down the wall, and the armies of the Huns, Persians, and Arabs will “fall upon each other.”15 So many troops will pass through the breach in the wall that the passage will actually be worn wider by the spear-points going through. “The earth shall melt through the blood and dung of men.”16 Then the kingdom of the Romans will enter this terrible war and they will conquer all, up to the edges of the heavens. In closing, Alexander cites the prophet Jeremiah, 1:14, “And evil shall be opened from the north upon all the inhabitants of the earth.” Clearly this corresponds closely with Q 18:99–102, the fifth and last part of the story of Dhu l-Qarnayn.
            There are still some details and a conclusion to the story in the Syriac text that have no corresponding part in the Qur’an. When Alexander comes into conflict with the King of Persia, called Tûbarlaq, then, with the help of the Lord, who appears on the chariot of the Seraphim along with the angelic host, Alexander’s armies are inspired to conquer the king of Persia. When he is captured, the Persian king Tûbarlaq promises to give Alexander tribute for fifteen years in return for a restoration of the borders. But Tûbarlaq’s diviners predict that at the end of the world, the Romans will kill the king of Persia and will lay waste to Babylon and Assyria. Tûbarlaq himself puts the prophecy in writing for Alexander, saying that the Romans will conquer the entire world and rule it all before handing power over to the returning Messiah. The Alexander Legend finally comes to an end with the remark that at the end of Alexander’s life, he establishes his silver throne in Jerusalem just as he had promised. This last episode is not reflected in the Qur’anic story, but it has proven important in recent scholarship in assigning a date to the Syriac text (to be discussed later)."

    Followed by this explanation.  Hold on, for it is technical:

    "The second of the two dates, 940 years after Alexander, which marks the time of the final war preceding the Messiah’s return according to the prophecy, is converted likewise to 628–9 CE. The message of the prophecy actually concerns events around this date, which coincides with the end of a long and extremely difficult war between the Persians and the Romans (603–30) during which Jerusalem was devastated, the relic of the True Cross stolen from that city, and the Persians conquered Syria, Palestine, and Egypt, occupying Anatolia, too, and they even besieged Constantinople itself in 626 CE in concert with the Avars, who invaded from the north. The Byzantine remainder of the Roman Empire was only barely saved from the Persian onslaught by the emperor Heraclius’ daring campaign through Armenia, ending in the winter of 627–8 with a surprise invasion into Mesopotamia and damaging raids on the rich estates around Ctesiphon. In these invasions the Türks joined the Byzantines in raids south of the Caucasus at Heraclius’ invitation and afterwards continued to make war on Persian territory in Transcaucasia, plundering until 630. The Byzantine invasion of Mesopotamia led the Persian nobles to remove their King of Kings, Khosro II, from power in February of 628 and to negotiate for peace.33 Persian forces occupying former Byzantine territory withdrew to Persia in 629, and early in 630 Heraclius personally returned the relic of the True Cross to Jerusalem in a formal celebration. (Just a few months before Heraclius’ arrival in Jerusalem, tradition tells us, the inhabitants of Mecca surrendered peacefully to Muhammad and submitted to his government.) Given the date that Alexander’s prophecy signals, 628–9 CE, it must be referring to the devastating wars of that time and their successful end for the Romans.
           Reinink has shown that the Alexander Legend demonstrates, through its prophecy and its use of Alexander to prefigure the emperor Heraclius, detailed knowledge of the events of that war and its resolution with the restoration of the earlier borders, a peace treaty, and a final reference to Jerusalem. Using this information, too much to repeat entirely here, he has persuasively argued that the Alexander Legend was composed just after 628, perhaps in 630, the year in which Heraclius restored the cross to Jerusalem.34 In the course of the war, while the Byzantines were very hard pressed by the Persians, Heraclius resorted to highly religious propaganda in order to rally his allies and to improve Roman morale. This propaganda has received recent scholarly attention.35 Likewise Heraclius’ attempts to eradicate the schisms in the Church after the war are well known. Reinink considers Alexander Legend to be a piece of pro-Heraclian postwar propaganda designed to promote the emperor’s political cause not long after the war’s end, re-establishing Roman rule over provinces that had been under Persian power for well over a decade and trying to overcome the schismatic Christological differences dividing his Chalcedonian court from the monophysites of the provinces recently recovered from the Persians. His thesis is that the Syriac Legend of Alexander was composed “shortly after 628” (i.e. in 629 or 630) by an inhabitant of Amida or Edessa, or some other place near to those, in support of Heraclius.36 He argues that the monophysite Syrians were the primary audience (although it is possible that the story was intended also to win over monophysites of other nations such as Arabs).37 Heraclius’ visit to Edessa in late 629 might have been an occasion for its composition. It is also possible that the text was written a few months later when Heraclius restored the cross to Jerusalem

    ....

    To sum up, the Alexander Legend is seen to reflect many specific events and cultural tendencies of the period around 628–9, the year it indicates as a time of wars between many nations beginning with the breaking of Alexander’s wall by the Huns. Out of these wars the Roman Empire would emerge victorious, some time after which the Roman Empire would permanently overthrow the Persians and establish a universal Christian empire. It is best understood, following Reinink, as a piece of propaganda composed by someone sympathetic to the need of Heraclius around 630, immediately after almost thirty years of demoralizing war and unprecedented military loss, to help in reconsolidating quickly the loyalties of the regained territories of the empire and their monophysite inhabitants. The success or popularity of the Alexander Legend is indicated in that it was used by at least three more apocalypses, the so-called Song of Alexander attributed falsely to Jacob of Serugh (composed just a few years later but before the Arab conquest, between 630 and 636),55 the Syriac apocalypse De fine mundi attributed falsely to Ephraem (composed sometime between 640–83),56 and the Apocalypse of Pseudo-Methodius (composed around 692, quite possibly in reaction to the building of the Dome of the Rock).57 The Alexander Legend was evidently well known in the early seventh century."
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #3 - November 12, 2014, 12:40 AM

    Having got that long quote out of the way .... I honestly am not sure about the status of anti-trinitarian doctrine in Qur'anic composition and its relation to the early Arab religious belief.  It's sort of a revisionist commonplace that the Qur'an loves Christians more than the Jews, and sides with the Christians more heavily, even though it includes many deep polemics against calling Jesus the son of God or 'raising him up' to God's status.  Many scholars have noted how the Qur'an's most archaic portions seem to reflect a Christian hymnal substrate that was later deformed and Islamicized by subsequent editors and redactors (for example, the Maryam surah interpolation), albeit with bits of Christianity left.

    What are we to say about this?  My best guess at present is that as claiming succession to Mohammed became a valuable political weapon amongst the battling Arab states, the Qur'an was cobbled together out of 'ancient materials' that allegedly reflected Mohammed's true teachings.  This meant they were assembled from written fragments of Arabic vernacular Christian preaching and liturgy, which were then welded together by scribes and "Islamicized" by editing them consistent with the believer's theological views.  Thus it seems likely to me that Mohammed himself was resolutely anti-trinitarian, and that the anti-trinitarian interpolation in Surah Maryam reflects a statement of his actual views, but they have been awkwardly jammed into a Queryana (a Syriac Christian lectionary) as an act of Islamicizing (doubtless accompanied by deletions of offending materials).  Probably, given its different rhyme scheme, the interpolated fragment already existed as an independent composition attributed to Mohammed, which is why it was not revised much, and stands out like a sore thumb.

    Other Surahs may have been written almost from whole cloth, albeit with existing themes and stories known within the community, to report what Mohammed allegedly said.  What resulted was a radically composite, multi-author text.

    So in this sense, rather than being the author of the surahs, the community's stories about what Mohammed allegedly said, who he was, and what he believed were written into the surahs over time.  And those stories evolved and changed depending on the region and time.  So what we see in the Qur'an is a collision between conflicting religious views, and conflicting texts welded together, which was 'smoothed out' by later additions and emendations.  What, then, was the 'actual' nature of the Believers' beliefs?  Probably vigorous sectarian dispute amongst monotheists, existing amongst a nascent political-religious Arab leadership that sought to unify those factions together and claim their support!  A dispute in which the key archaic religious doctrine of the early Believers was one over the *legitimate representation of Allah's will,* i.e. who had the status as legitimate 'kaliph' of Allah, and submission to that divine authority claimed by Mohammed and his would-be successors -- not specific religious doctrine or texts.  Certainly not a monolithic message delivered by one Arabian prophet to pagans!
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #4 - November 12, 2014, 12:56 AM

    Thanks for the incredibly detailed response!

    Regarding the Sura 18 narrative, it clearly is linked to the Alexander Legend, which was based on the events going on between the Romans and Persians at the time. But could it have been possible at all that the Alexander Legend was a reworked version of material that would later make up the Quran, albeit having a distinct political agenda (promoting religious fervor in the Byzantine Empire)? Like how can we be sure it went Alexander Legend >> Quran rather than Quranic source material >> Alexander Legend?

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #5 - November 12, 2014, 12:58 AM

    If we can establish Alexander Legend >> Quran then we can show that at least a portion of sura 18 originated at a much later time than the traditional account indicates.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #6 - November 12, 2014, 01:07 AM

    Thanks for the incredibly detailed response!

    Regarding the Sura 18 narrative, it clearly is linked to the Alexander Legend, which was based on the events going on between the Romans and Persians at the time. But could it have been possible at all that the Alexander Legend was a reworked version of material that would later make up the Quran, albeit having a distinct political agenda (promoting religious fervor in the Byzantine Empire)? Like how can we be sure it went Alexander Legend >> Quran rather than Quranic source material >> Alexander Legend?


    It depends what you mean by Qur'anic source material ... here the source material was a composite of (a) the widely circulating versions of the Alexander romance; as (b) updated as Byzantine propaganda in the wake of recent Heraclian victories in Mesopotamia, Armenia, etc.  But the Alexander Legend cannot have been composed after Jerusalem fell to the Arabs either, or that would have been reflected in its narrative.  So it must have been composed in a tightly knit time between 629 and 633, likely 630.

    If you are saying there may have been unknown Arabic antecedents, it is hard to see why Arabs would be writing Byzantine propaganda at this time, or how that would have made much sense given the extremely narrow audience for Arabic-language (almost nobody could have read it) Byzantine propaganda.  Also the timeframe would have been too fast -- whether "Qur'anic materials" were used or not, the Alexander Legend would have had to be FIRST COMPOSED in the same time frame (629-630), and if an Arabic version was first then the Syriac version would have to be copied from them immediately.  That makes no sense at all, and further wouldn't change the dating in any respect. 

    Your latter point about this being a later interpolation is quite possible.  It's suspicious that this section of Surah 18 begins 'they ask you about ....', a phrase which the Qur'an often seems to use to jam interpolations into an existing text, thereby answering a burning question with supposed divine authority.  I think it's quite likely that the Qur'an's Arabic-language version of the Alexander Legend originated as a specific response that Arabic preachers could give to their Arabic-language faithful asking about this new Byzantine propaganda ... the answer being that it was correct, but deleting the pro-Byzantine spin part at the end.  Later this stock answer was welded into a complete surah.  When that incorporation took place, nobody can as yet say .... in the decades following Mohammed's death is the only useful answer.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #7 - November 12, 2014, 01:26 AM

    I am just wondering at the mere possibility that some of the Arabic Christian lectionary material that became part of the Quran perhaps is the origin of the wall of Gog and Magog and a character traveling to the ends of the Earth, and the Alexander Legend built on those details along with earlier renditions of the Alexander Romance to promote Byzantine religious propaganda. I am just wondering if there is any decently plausible way that those verses in sura 18 could predate the Alexander Legend in either oral or written form. I guess if the Quran also seems to imply knowledge of the parts of the Alexander Legend which allude to Heraclius victories, then those verses of the Quran would have to originate after around 628.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #8 - November 12, 2014, 03:29 AM

    Again, here is what Van Bladel says ... I certainly can't better his explanation.

    "To return to the main question, the extremely close correspondences between the Syriac Alexander Legend and Qur’an 18:83–102, reviewed earlier, must mean that the two texts are related. On the one hand, there is a Syriac text the date of which is almost certain, about 629–30 CE, and the historical context and political meaning of which is known fairly precisely (as just explained); on the other, we have a passage from the Qur’an, an Arabic compilation the precise dates and historical circumstances of which are debated by historians, but which tradition has understood to be collected into its current form during the caliphate of ‘Uthman (644–56) or at least after Muhammad’s death (632). It is possible to approach the problem of affiliation between the two systematically. The two texts must be related. That is the only explanation for their point-for-point correspon-dence. In that case there are three reasonable possibilities: (1) the Syriac takes its account from the Qur’an, or (2) the two texts share a common source, or (3) the Qur’an uses the account found in the Syriac.
         Could the Syriac text have its source in the Qur’an? If this were the case, then the Syriac text would have to be seen as a highly expanded version of the Qur’anic account, which would then need to be understood as an attempt to explain the cryptic Qur’anic story with rationalizations drawn from stories about Alexander. However, the Syriac text contains no references to the Arabic language the type of which one might expect to find if its purpose was to explain an Arabic text, and it is impossible to see why a Syriac apocalypse written around 630 would be drawing on an Arabic tradition some years before the Arab conquests, when the community at Mecca was far from well known outside Arabia. Moreover, the very specific political message of the Alexander Legend would not make any sense in this scenario. This possibility must therefore be discounted.
           Could the two texts share a common source? This also becomes practically impossible for some of the same reasons. The Syriac Alexander Legend was written to support Heraclius by indicating the author’s belief in the significance of events leading up to 629 AD, events supposed to be foreshadowing the establishment of a Christian world empire and the coming of the Messiah. Yet relating Dhul-Qarnayn’s first prophecy of the end times is also the very purpose of the story in the Qur’an: the prediction of God’s actions at the time of judgment using an ancient voice of great authority. As already explained, the war between Byzantium and Ctesiphon went very badly for the Byzantines until the very end, prompting an intense bout of political and religious propaganda to boost the desperate war effort and to consolidate allegiances after the victory. Reinink has shown that this Syriac text, given its contents, must be understood as pro-Heraclian propaganda belonging to this milieu, dated to 629–30.
          If Alexander’s prophecy was composed just for this purpose at this time, then the correspondence between the Syriac and the Arabic, which contains the same prophecy reworded, cannot be  due to an earlier, shared source. Put differently, the only way to posit a common source is to assume that everything held in common between the Qur’anic account and the Syriac Alexander Legend could have been written for and would have made sense in an earlier context. In light of the detailed contextualization given earlier, and in light of G.J. Reinink’s work referred to earlier as well, this becomes impossible."

    Finally since I've quoted his article so much, I may as well quote his could-not-be-more-right conclusion:

    "It seems now that the future of Qur’anic studies lies not within the discipline construed as Islamic studies alone but rather that many major historical problems of the Qur’an will be solved by historians of Late Antiquity, whose approaches to the first century of Islam are proving more successful than the various apologetic and polemical approaches that predominate in the modern study of early Islam. That is perhaps to be expected, since scholars in the field of Islamic studies are largely concerned with later tradition and has generally (though not in every case) failed to find adequate tools for approaching the Qur’an in its original context, the early seventh century. Yet almost every primary source used in the present study was published more than fifty years ago, many of them more than a century ago. Scholars of Islamic studies have brought historical–epistemological problems – which are problems particularly when they confine themselves to late sources – so prominently to the foreground that it is nearly impossible to read the texts themselves, while the general abandonment of the basic preliminary tools of historical scholarship – the philological methods used to establish text that can then serve as objects of historical research – are sorely neglected. But Qur’anic studies now requires scholars trained in Greek and Syriac, not to mention other forms of Aramaic, and even Armenian, Ethiopic and other languages, as much as in Arabic. With the great surge in research and publication on Late Antiquity, the very context into which Islam came, answers to the pressing theoretical questions as well as to some of the historical ones also may at last appear."

    Amen brother.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #9 - November 12, 2014, 03:48 AM

    Sounds good! Thanks for posting so much of that article!

    Now does the kind of Reynolds and Shoemaker school of Islamic scholars generally agree to the general outline of Muhammad's story where he started out in Mecca and fled to Medina? How do they look at the theories of Islam not originating in Mecca and Medina as Tom Holland and other scholars have proposed?

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #10 - November 12, 2014, 04:34 AM

    From what I have read of them (I am half-way through Shoemaker and I read Reynold's introductory book) they generally rubbish the traditional story. Shooting the Sira full of holes is like shooting fish in a barrel. In Shoemaker's book he makes the comparison of  basing the "historical Jesus" off of the writing of the likes of Origen and other 2nd and 3rd century Christians who (under the heavy influence of Platonism) believed amongst other things that Jesus did not need to eat food but only did so to not alarm those around him.  In Early Christian studies such a thing would be unthinkable, but this is basically what Angelika Neuwirth et al have been doing for the past 150 years of Western scholarship on the Quran.

    Reynolds spends a good bit of his book showing how almost everything in the Sira narrative was in one way or another twisted to provide ersatz "asbaab an-nuzuul" or reasons for revelation to obscure and opaque Quranic verses. Safe to say that between that and the blatant Moses-mimicry there's not much left to the Sira.

    On the flip side, in Islamic terms even the Gospel of John is incredibly close to the events it describes but scholars still totally rubbish it., due to the very large idealogical axes the Gospel writers had to grind. How much more so does this apply to the Sira and Hadith, which not only had to bear the load of explaining Muslim practice and doctrine but were also made to explain the confusing and opaque Quran! Shoemaker's whole book pretty much is devoted to trying to squeeze as much historical info out of the early non-Islamic sources as we can because the Hadith and Sira collections are general worthless, but for the few traditions they preserve such as the Medina compact and some of the apocalyptic Hadith that do not fit in easily with the later Islamic narrative and had to be (with greatly difficulty) explained away by later scholars.  If you want to know all that can be reliably learned about the "historical Muhammad" you can get a pretty good start of it in 30 minutes reading the earliest non-Muslim accounts.

    http://www.christianorigins.com/islamrefs.html#doctrinajacobi

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #11 - November 12, 2014, 04:42 AM

    Also as to Mecca and Medina, so far as I can see Mecca has been pretty much rubbished since Crone published "Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam" (Although I just got Hoyland's new book on the Islamic conquests and he seems to take it at face value that the traditional origin story is more or less correct in its geography, harumph).  Medina (Yathrib) on the other hand is mentioned by a number of early sources and was almost certainly central to the life of Muhammad. Holland in his book also accepts this. Have you watched the channel 4 documentary? Although I think Holland is incredibly naive about the Quran it's a great place to dip your feet into this stuff.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #12 - November 12, 2014, 05:02 AM

    Also Zoatar great stuff as usual, too bad my French is so poor. merci a Dieu pour Google Translate Cheesy

    It was bitingly witty the whole way through, I image you got a kick out of it. I liked the end a lot:

    Il y a quelques années, Claude Gilliot avait proposé, à propos des études coraniques, d’«en finir avec les merveilles de la lampe d’Aladin»
    – les merveilles étant, bien entendu, les conceptions insuffisamment critiques d’une partie importante de la recherche occidentale.
    The Qurɛān in Context nous donne certainement des garde-fous utiles pour ne pas en finir n’importe comment avec ces merveilles. Mais je doute que l’approche défendue par certaines de ses contributions nous permette de prendre congé de la lampe magique.

    "Several years ago, Claude Gilliot proposed of current Quranic studies to "do away with the wonders of Aladdin's magic lamp"-- the wonders being, well regarded, the insufficiently critical conceptions of an important part of western reasearchers. The Quran in Context certainly gives us safeguards for not doing away with the marvels anyhow. But I doubt that the approach which is defended by certain of its contributions allows us to take leave of the magic lamp."

    Actually looking back on this I think I don't quite understand "pour ne pas en finir n’importe comment avec ces merveilles" as it would make more sense to mean "to do away with the marvels" but then again maybe I am overthinking it. In any event he's being really cheeky  and I need to work on my French Cheesy

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #13 - November 12, 2014, 05:03 AM

    Julian good to see you in good spirits and contributing such great material! Thanks for the link! I have been looking to read these non-Muslim sources.

    I am from a Christian background too and am perplexed that the historical skepticism many Biblical scholars use to evaluate the life of Jesus is absent from studies of the Islamic narrative. As someone who has studied the New Testament as well as some of the later apocryphal tales about Jesus, I wince when I hear people cite obscure details from the late hadiths or sira as if they were facts about what Muhammad actually did.

    I watched Holland's documentary and it was very interesting although it moved through everything very quickly and I don't think he was able to support his case in a way that would change people's minds due to time constraints.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #14 - November 12, 2014, 05:20 AM

    It really is maddening. I just got Hoyland's new book on the Islamic conquests, and perusing it I was shocked to find old Sira canards being recited uncritically, even as the entire conquest narrative was rubbished as being unreliable! Hugh Kennedy in the Great Arab Conquests did the same thing. If we cannot rely on the tradition to tell us the bare military facts of the conquest (and we can't) how on earth are we to use those same sources or people who wrote in the same time frame and same milieu to discern the life of the man who's every word carried to force of law, life, and death?

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #15 - November 12, 2014, 05:36 AM

    I am surprised there are not more Quranists. The hadith is so clearly contradictory, manufactured, and unreliable as a source of information that I am surprised Muslims haven't dropped them just as Christians have dropped the stories of Jesus' infancy narratives and legendary stories of the martyrs that developed in the 2nd and 3rd centuries

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #16 - November 12, 2014, 05:47 AM

    I am actually debating a Quranist on Youtube right now lol, the problem is if not the Sunna then what else? The Quran makes reference to things like the story of the (7) sleepers, battle of Badr, the infancy miracles of Jesus, etc. that are totally unfamiliar to most people not familiar with Late Antique Christianity and Judaism and never explains anything at all. Without the tafsir, Sira, and Hadith you have to rely on the earlier scriptures (which clearly contradict the Quran on a number of points) and the history of late antiquity, both of which will lead you to the conclusion that the Quran is a mish-mash of different, badly understood texts.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #17 - November 12, 2014, 05:55 AM

    The problem with Quranists, epistemically, parallels what I said about Neuwirth earlier:  They tend to say things like "Qur'an alone" without considering what that *actually means* ... as if it could even theoretically be self-evident from the text alone how the Qur'an was composed, who wrote it, what it means, and what its language says.  A read through Reynolds' book on the Biblical subtext of the Qur'an will quickly dispose of those misconceptions.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #18 - November 12, 2014, 06:00 AM

    From my argument on Youtube (context: the Quranist is claiming "evolution is a hoax" and saying that the Quran does not assume the world to be only 6,000-10,000 years old)


    وَلَقَدْ خَلَقْنَاكُمْ ثُمَّ صَوَّرْنَاكُمْ ثُمَّ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ لَمْ يَكُنْ مِنَ السَّاجِدِينَ
    "We created you then we formed you then we said to the angels prostrate to Adam and they prostrated to Adam except for Iblis who was not one of the prostraters." (my translation) 

    The Quran, being a pastiche of monotheistic preaching from multiple authors (one of whom was probably Muhammad), Biblical verses, Jewish midrash and Aramaic targums, and most of all Syriac Christian liturgical literature, does not really explain any of the things it refers to but instead assumes that the audience knows what it's talking about. Of course Muslims 200, 300 years later and today didn't and don't know much of anything about the Late Antique Near East, so they had to invent the Sira and the Hadith to explain this mess. But in the context of the Late Antique world, or even of today's post-Christian West,m we know who Adam was. He was the 1st man (this much we also get elsewhere in the Quran) and also that there were only 20 or so generations between him and Abraham (who like Adam almost certainly never existed, but never mind that). Abraham lived according to the Bible and the Quran in ancient Iraq around 5,000 years ago. Even take into account the incredibly long life spans attributed to the descendants of Adam between him and Abraham, that grants the earth an age of no more than 6,000 or 7,000 years. 

    Also if as according to Quran 4:1 God created Adam and Hawa (Eve) as only 2 people 1st of all, were the hell did the Neanderthals, paleolithicus, etc. etc. come from if NOT evolution? Looks like even the Quran must support evolution, or else it's all errant nonsense (I vote for the later)!

    Quranism makes no sense because the Quran as we have it today makes no sense. Without the tafsir, Hadith, and Sira it's utter nonsense and even with all of that ad hoc BS it barely makes any sense. No narrative, no explanation of what's going on, no background to any of the characters, and heaven only knows NO.DAMN.CONTEXT.WHATSOEVER. Instructions like praying 3 times a day and punishing adultery with whipping that clearly contradict centuries of Muslim practice. Bizarre nonsense like accusing the Jews of worshiping Ezra (this is probably a scribal error for the angel 'Uzayr who was an angel worshiped by some Jews in Late Antiquity, but far be it from any Muslim to admit that the Quran's rasm is all fubared; the fact that 1000 years of Muslims have accepted this blatantly ridiculous lie as a fact about the world in which we currently live points to the credulity that Islam encourages in its followers). References to late antique stories like the Alexander Romances and the 7 Sleepers of Ephesus that flew right over the heads of Muslims in the 8th century and continue to do so to this day. The authors of the Quran clearly believed that the earth was not more than 10,000 years old, but you're right that this is not explicitly stated in the Quran because NOTHING is explicitly stated in the Quran. What a mess. 

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #19 - November 12, 2014, 06:14 AM

    The problem with Quranists, epistemically, parallels what I said about Neuwirth earlier:  They tend to say things like "Qur'an alone" without considering what that *actually means* ... as if it could even theoretically be self-evident from the text alone how the Qur'an was composed, who wrote it, what it means, and what its language says.  A read through Reynolds' book on the Biblical subtext of the Qur'an will quickly dispose of those misconceptions.


    BTW Zoater, did you see this? We now have a late 7th century Quranic manuscript apparently.

    http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/uploads/media/14-11-10Koranhandschrift_UB_Tuebingen_en.pdf

    Too bad I can't read the Kufic script! I am very interested to know which verses are and are not in this manuscript, but I have not been able to find this info on the Interwebz in either English or German.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #20 - November 12, 2014, 06:18 AM

    As to Mecca and Medina, I believe most guys like Reynolds are actually somewhat agnostic on this issue and think about it differently (maybe they'll correct me).  The first thing is to distinguish between the Qur'an and the life of Mohammed.  Then one must distinguish between the life of Mohammed and the history of the Arabian conquests.  Then one must distinguish between the history of the conquests and the early history of Islam.  These subjects are not the same thing at all.  They cannot be jammed together into one area, and one life, and one religion, and one text.

    So when one asks, like the late antiquity guys do, what the Qur'an is saying and to whom, it is perfectly possible to argue that the Qur'an is vastly more of the product of late antiquity than Muslim tradition recounts .... without challenging the traditional accounts of any of these other issues.  And vice versa.  Thus scholars who are criticizing the traditional account in one area (the context of the Qur'an's composition and its references) commonly do not take a position on the separate question of traditional history and its veracity.

    To some degree this makes sense, and I agree with it analytically.  However it can be carried to somewhat comical lengths, which Reynolds and Shoemaker exemplify -- they are really throwing bomb after bomb at the core of Islam, all the while playing super political and nice with everybody, and trying to downplay the ultimate implications of their arguments for Islam.  And Shoemaker practically falls over himself apologizing for his temerity in questioning the traditional account.  Not so easy to do .... once you take out various legs of the table, it starts to fall.

    As for myself, I believe that there is no good evidence that Mecca plays a significant role in *any* of the above issues until long after the conquests, and a great deal of evidence demonstrating that it did not, and the tradition is completely wrong.

    Medina/Yathrib I am far more agnostic about.  I would say that it may have played a role, but we don't really know, and we certainly don't know what that role was.  And it is unlikely, in my book, that it played much of a role in the Qur'an's composition, which again I believe did not necessarily have much to do with Mo's life.  However I do think it's possible that Mohammed expanded his empire from Yathrib, or that he had some sort of deep connection with it.  Again, we are much better able to ferret out the Qur'an's context and composition than we are able to come up with any reliable details about Mo's life --- fact.  And I think this is why so many scholars are pursuing that fruitful avenue of research, and ignoring the unreliable swamp of mythology that is the sirah/Mohammed generally.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #21 - November 12, 2014, 06:25 AM

    From my argument on Youtube (context: the Quranist is claiming "evolution is a hoax" and saying that the Quran does not assume the world to be only 6,000-10,000 years old)


    وَلَقَدْ خَلَقْنَاكُمْ ثُمَّ صَوَّرْنَاكُمْ ثُمَّ قُلْنَا لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ اسْجُدُوا لِآدَمَ فَسَجَدُوا إِلَّا إِبْلِيسَ لَمْ يَكُنْ مِنَ السَّاجِدِينَ
    "We created you then we formed you then we said to the angels prostrate to Adam and they prostrated to Adam except for Iblis who was not one of the prostraters." (my translation) 

    The Quran, being a pastiche of monotheistic preaching from multiple authors (one of whom was probably Muhammad), Biblical verses, Jewish midrash and Aramaic targums, and most of all Syriac Christian liturgical literature, does not really explain any of the things it refers to but instead assumes that the audience knows what it's talking about. Of course Muslims 200, 300 years later and today didn't and don't know much of anything about the Late Antique Near East, so they had to invent the Sira and the Hadith to explain this mess. But in the context of the Late Antique world, or even of today's post-Christian West,m we know who Adam was. He was the 1st man (this much we also get elsewhere in the Quran) and also that there were only 20 or so generations between him and Abraham (who like Adam almost certainly never existed, but never mind that). Abraham lived according to the Bible and the Quran in ancient Iraq around 5,000 years ago. Even take into account the incredibly long life spans attributed to the descendants of Adam between him and Abraham, that grants the earth an age of no more than 6,000 or 7,000 years. 

    Also if as according to Quran 4:1 God created Adam and Hawa (Eve) as only 2 people 1st of all, were the hell did the Neanderthals, paleolithicus, etc. etc. come from if NOT evolution? Looks like even the Quran must support evolution, or else it's all errant nonsense (I vote for the later)!

    Quranism makes no sense because the Quran as we have it today makes no sense. Without the tafsir, Hadith, and Sira it's utter nonsense and even with all of that ad hoc BS it barely makes any sense. No narrative, no explanation of what's going on, no background to any of the characters, and heaven only knows NO.DAMN.CONTEXT.WHATSOEVER. Instructions like praying 3 times a day and punishing adultery with whipping that clearly contradict centuries of Muslim practice. Bizarre nonsense like accusing the Jews of worshiping Ezra (this is probably a scribal error for the angel 'Uzayr who was an angel worshiped by some Jews in Late Antiquity, but far be it from any Muslim to admit that the Quran's rasm is all fubared; the fact that 1000 years of Muslims have accepted this blatantly ridiculous lie as a fact about the world in which we currently live points to the incredulity that Islam encourages in its followers). References to late antique stories like the Alexander Romances and the 7 Sleepers of Ephesus that flew right over the heads of Muslims in the 8th century and continue to do so to this day. The authors of the Quran clearly believed that the earth was not more than 10,000 years old, but you're right that this is not explicitly stated in the Quran because NOTHING is explicitly stated in the Quran. What a mess. 

    Haha pretty epic rant right there   Afro

    I bet you are pretty pissed off at Islam after dealing with what you are going through. My girlfriend of two years actually left me because she wanted someone who would "bring her closer to Christ" and my skepticism was not helping. I pretty much reacted the same way and would go on full out rants against the Christian faith online and in front of others because religion basically destroyed my relationship.

    Feel free to rant away though. Just try to be sensitive to people of the faith and don't give them the wrong impression that you are an asshole who just wants to pour cold water on their faith and hope because that might just confirm their convictions that us skeptics are nasty people and make them close up. I understand that urge to just lash out at religion after you feel its taken away so much, but try to keep your cool around believers who may be questioning.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #22 - November 12, 2014, 06:33 AM

    As to Mecca and Medina, I believe most guys like Reynolds are actually somewhat agnostic on this issue and think about it differently (maybe they'll correct me).  The first thing is to distinguish between the Qur'an and the life of Mohammed.  Then one must distinguish between the life of Mohammed and the history of the Arabian conquests.  Then one must distinguish between the history of the conquests and the early history of Islam.  These subjects are not the same thing at all.  They cannot be jammed together into one area, and one life, and one religion, and one text.

    So when one asks, like the late antiquity guys do, what the Qur'an is saying and to whom, it is perfectly possible to argue that the Qur'an is vastly more of the product of late antiquity than Muslim tradition recounts .... without challenging the traditional accounts of any of these other issues.  And vice versa.  Thus scholars who are criticizing the traditional account in one area (the context of the Qur'an's composition and its references) commonly do not take a position on the separate question of traditional history and its veracity.

    To some degree this makes sense, and I agree with it analytically.  However it can be carried to somewhat comical lengths, which Reynolds and Shoemaker exemplify -- they are really throwing bomb after bomb at the core of Islam, all the while playing super political and nice with everybody, and trying to downplay the ultimate implications of their arguments for Islam.  And Shoemaker practically falls over himself apologizing for his temerity in questioning the traditional account.  Not so easy to do .... once you take out various legs of the table, it starts to fall.

    As for myself, I believe that there is no good evidence that Mecca plays a significant role in *any* of the above issues until long after the conquests, and a great deal of evidence demonstrating that it did not, and the tradition is completely wrong.

    Medina/Yathrib I am far more agnostic about.  I would say that it may have played a role, but we don't really know, and we certainly don't know what that role was.  And it is unlikely, in my book, that it played much of a role in the Qur'an's composition, which again I believe did not necessarily have much to do with Mo's life.  However I do think it's possible that Mohammed expanded his empire from Yathrib, or that he had some sort of deep connection with it.  Again, we are much better able to ferret out the Qur'an's context and composition than we are able to come up with any reliable details about Mo's life --- fact.  And I think this is why so many scholars are pursuing that fruitful avenue of research, and ignoring the unreliable swamp of mythology that is the sirah/Mohammed generally.


    I think the elephant in the room is the connection of Muhammad to the Quran. Even Holland falls for this. From what we know of him, he was the equivalent of Walter Kovachs from the Watchmen, the homeless guy in the street holding a sign saying "The End is Nigh", only difference is he had an army behind him and 2 very weak empires facing him. Even Shoemaker makes the point that the refined poetic style of many Quranic suwar seem out of place with an apocalyptic, conquering warlord, which is what Muhammad seems to have been. Although religion definitely played a role in his mission, I doubt that his policy towards Jews and Christians was as well thought out as Fred Donner makes him to be in his book. Basically I don't think that Muhammad was any great innovative religious thinker, he just latched onto the general monotheism of his milieu, the apacolyptic tone of the religious war raging between Iranshahr and the Roman Empire, and the destruction and hopelessness left in its wake, and he used it build a movement of apocalyptic conquest obsessed with capturing Jerusalem from the Romans.

    In all of this I don't think there would have been much room to write many if any of the suwar in the Quran. More likely that some type of sayings document existed, as Jesus had, and this was later incorporated into the Quran. The lions share of the Quran (which does not deal with the laws such as "no wine" and "don't eat carrion" which the historical sources tell us he preached, but instead deals with commentaries on stories which are never mentioned in the text itself) probably never came from Muhammad, and I have yet to see a good argument that it did which does not rely on the Islamic tradition of the later 800's and 900's. Even critical scholars seem unwilling to admit this, I think because it would mean that the "historical Muhammad" lies more or less outside of our reach forever, excepting some explosive new document that comes to light.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #23 - November 12, 2014, 06:41 AM

    BTW Zoater, did you see this? We now have a late 7th century Quranic manuscript apparently.

    http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/uploads/media/14-11-10Koranhandschrift_UB_Tuebingen_en.pdf

    Too bad I can't read the Kufic script! I am very interested to know which verses are and are not in this manuscript, but I have not been able to find this info on the Interwebz in either English or German.


    I haven't seen this, thanks for the link, but I suspect it is another case of improbably early carbon dates being given for Qur'anic manuscripts.  Deroche discusses this problem at some length in his book on Umayyad Qur'anic manuscripts.  Carbon dating is consistently giving dates that are too early (for example, where the manuscript records its exact date of being written down).  This unreliability of carbon dating remains one of the most baffling problems in analyzing early Qur'anic manuscripts.

    For example, the Sanaa I palimpsest has been carbon dated to a preposterously early date.  "The parchment upon which the lower codex is written has been radiocarbon dated with 99% accuracy to before 671 AD, with a 95.5% probability of being older than 661 AD and 75% probability from before 646 AD."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana%27a_manuscript

    But Deroche has quite convincingly (to my mind) shown that this cannot be correct, and the Sanaa I manuscript was actually produced at the *end* of the 7th century ... it is not even the oldest Qur'anic manuscript, which at this point looks like BNF328.  So something has gone wrong with the carbon dating process.

    The early date reported here is particularly suspicious because this manuscript is in kufic script, which is generally a later script than the earliest manuscripts, which are all in hijazi script.  Any kufic script Qur'an I would expect to be a nearly bone-stock copy of the uthmanic rasm, with relatively few variants.  So I would not get excited on that front.

    On the whole, I'm not sure carbon dating is really as well-suited for such fine chronological resolution of these issues as is commonly claimed ... the date ranges appear artificially precise because they are mechanical mathematical extrapolations from the carbon 14 to carbon 12 ratio, but their starting point depends upon a host of assumptions that may or may not be true (for example, that the materials used were not stockpiled for long time periods before the text was written).  But this is a complicated, specialist subject that I'd really like to see more work done on in the specific context of Qur'anic manuscripts.  So, the more the better I say.  I would like to learn more about the subject.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #24 - November 12, 2014, 06:47 AM

    Sounds like you already know a lot! I am  only somewhat familiar with the manuscript issues and not at all with carbon dating. I know that carbon dating can often be off by thousands of years when working with biological materials, but usually the time spans are so vast that it does not make too much of a difference. Not sure about applying it to manuscripts though.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #25 - November 12, 2014, 06:54 AM

    Well everybody knows carbon dating is flawed! Just ask Ken Ham  grin12

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #26 - November 12, 2014, 07:32 AM

    Anyone heard of this book?

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Interpolation-Quran-Research-Shahir-Niyazi/dp/B0000CQMNH


    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #27 - November 12, 2014, 07:38 AM

    I haven't seen this, thanks for the link, but I suspect it is another case of improbably early carbon dates being given for Qur'anic manuscripts.  Deroche discusses this problem at some length in his book on Umayyad Qur'anic manuscripts.  Carbon dating is consistently giving dates that are too early (for example, where the manuscript records its exact date of being written down).  This unreliability of carbon dating remains one of the most baffling problems in analyzing early Qur'anic manuscripts ....


    I think another point needs to be made here: one should not confuse the part for the whole.  There are many early fragments, pieces of what later become the Qur'an, possibly dated to the mid-7th c. CE, but there are no complete Qur'ans.  These fragments also display some variation in orthography and wording, etc., giving the feeling that a sacred, unchangable text did not yet emerge. The dome of the rock inscriptions also belong to this category; they are composed in Qur'anic style but are not verbatim the Qur'an.  There will be a public event "Qur'an study day" at Leiden University (I am Dutch, MA student in Arabic studies) http://www.hum.leidenuniv.nl/lucis/activiteiten/quran-study-day-2014.html to debate the significance of these findings.  It will be interesting to see what they come up with.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #28 - November 12, 2014, 05:39 PM

    That conference looks very interesting for sure.  Leiden is full of great scholars.  Al-Jallad is listed as one of the committee organizers.

    I don't believe, however, that early Qur'anic manuscripts are really as 'partial' as some people imply, and I think the very late and very early composition dates are probably off.  I doubt there was any significant volume of Qur'anic manuscripts *of any kind, partial or not* at any kind prior to the last quarter of the 7th century.  And when they first emerged, they would not be partial compositions, but rather the fully fledged compositions funded by an Arab political entity, using professional scribes and scholars.

    My best guess is that the common ancestor of the main Uthmanic Qur'an and the Sanaa palimpsest was already written around 660 or so, and that it would have been a full-fledged Qur'an, missing only the various smaller surahs at the end, but including the main larger surahs at the beginning.

    In other words, I think the base Qur'an crystallized relatively quickly, and as a consequence that it had almost no existence outside of state-sponsored projects that welded very obscure archaic materials together in a patchwork.  Not as quickly as some of these carbon dates imply, but far more quickly than the argument that there was a milieu of widely circulating Qur'anic texts that coalesced over many decades into an "official" Qur'an.

    We will never find any of these pre-Quranic materials, I believe, because they were incredibly obscure ... things like poorly-written sermon notes and such.  We don't even have copies preserved of many critical works that were distributed in vast numbers throughout literate Antiquity (for example, the vastly-influential Diatessaron has only turned up in much later Persian translations, we have no original Syriac version, likewise in the Muslim context we have no original copies of even a work as seminal and late as Ibn Ishaq's sirah!!).  It is hard to overemphasize how few manuscripts are preserved, statistically.  So it is beyond statistical hope that obscure pre-Quranic notes and texts would have been preserved until now, in my view.  I do not think we will find any of them, any more than a traditional Muslim could reasonably expect we would find the writings on "bones and scraps of leather" that Uthman reportedly compiled his Qur'an from.  Such archaic, crude writings simply were not widely disseminated or important, and so it would take a miracle to find them now.

    What I still puzzle over is the nature of the materials incorporated into the Qur'an and where they all came from.  In particular, I suspect there to have been three main categories of material:  Anonymous monotheistic texts (many dating back, or deriving back, for decades before 630), texts assembled by some faction of the Believers in the wake of the 'year of the Arabs' (622) (some of the surahs may have fallen into this category), and finally the state-sponsored compilation that formed the basis for the Uthmanic Qur'an, the Sanaa palimpsest, etc. (probably emerging with the Umayyads at some point between 650-670).  After that point, almost any Qur'anic manuscript would just look like a Qur'an, albeit missing many of the later small surahs.

    None of these, however, had any wide distribution or were very significant until the Second Fitna, and there still was a sense that one could make new Qur'anic compositions going well into the early 8th century (although few made their way into the Mushaf).  The codification of the Qur'an, in other words, preceded its canonization by many decades.

    I will certainly be interested to hear the views of the guys at the Leiden conference on such issues.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #29 - November 13, 2014, 05:22 PM

    Btw, as to that carbon dating of the manuscript, there's a twitter debate (responding to the Ian D. Morris tweet of this report) where people are making the same type of points I was making above about the manuscript's script suggesting that it's actually a relatively late composition.

    https://twitter.com/iranicaonline/status/532582523092869120

    I will be curious what the conference comes up with, but for now I can't see a Kufic manuscript as being particularly early relative to the Hijazi manuscripts.
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