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Theme Changer

 Topic: Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam

 (Read 11430 times)
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  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #30 - November 13, 2014, 07:09 PM

    Its seems strange to use 7th century parchment in the 8th or 9th century.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #31 - November 13, 2014, 07:14 PM

    Not at all actually. Parchment was extremely expensive in antiquity, that's why so many were washed over and used to write new books, which is where you get palimpsets like the Sana'a manuscripts from.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #32 - November 13, 2014, 07:15 PM

    Hey Zaotar according to this reference I got off of wikiislam, I was directed to a book called The History of the Qur'an where when it refers to sura 18 on p. 34 it says that the sura is Meccan, "except verse 28 and verses 83 - 101 which were revealed at
    Madinah."

    http://tanzil.net/pub/ebooks/History-of-Quran.pdf

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #33 - November 13, 2014, 07:50 PM

    This is such an incredibly epic topic. I wish there were more studies of this sort available in English.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #34 - November 13, 2014, 08:39 PM

    Hey Zaotar according to this reference I got off of wikiislam, I was directed to a book called The History of the Qur'an where when it refers to sura 18 on p. 34 it says that the sura is Meccan, "except verse 28 and verses 83 - 101 which were revealed at
    Madinah."

    http://tanzil.net/pub/ebooks/History-of-Quran.pdf


    Yeah this invocation of later interpolation-via-revelation is something you often see in traditional Muslim exegesis.  It's not like Muslims were unaware that much of the Qur'an looks like newer text was added later to an existing surah.  They recognized that many verses look like awkward later interpolations.  And anybody with half a brain who reads the Qur'an is constantly struck by this same conclusion.  One of the common exegetical explanations for it is that the interpolation in question was simply revealed later to Mohammed, although why that would justify awkward interpolation into an eternal divine book remains difficult to explain.  For example, Qur'an 4:176, one of the crudest interpolations, is claimed in several hadith to have been the last revelation that Mohammed received ... and this is an attempt to explain what is an embarrassingly straightforward later interpolation into the text, blatantly designed to deal with the nonsensical 'kalala' term in 4:12 that was fucking everybody up and boggling everyone.

    So as to how and why the speaker in Surah 18 is regaling 'illiterate Meccan pagans' about the details of a Syriac apocalyptic Christian text that discusses a pagan Greek conqueror, that preposterous scenario is resolved by the radical expedient of presuming that this entire discussion must actually have happened MUCH later in the more literate and worldly city of Medina -- but still within Mohammed's ever-malleable life -- and then interpolated by Mohammed himself back into the "Meccan" Surah 18!

    And this is diagnostic of traditional Muslim exegesis, as well as its uncritical successors in the Western scholarly tradition:  All of the radical changes, contradictions, discontinuities, interpolations found within the Qur'anic text are explained by formulating a narrative about the Prophet's life that places the radically composite text within a radically composite process of composition that took place over decades ... known as the traditional life of Mohammed.  Hence by placing them within this biographical narrative the many Qur'anic contradictions are 'abrogations,' and the interpolations are 'later revelations.'  Within this narrative device, you could always explain anything about the text by invoking some new biographical detail about Mohammed's life.

    Another example I like to use is the fact that Muslim tradition records that scribes added rhyme fixes to the Qur'an while recording Mohammed's utterances, and when Mohammed heard the scribes' version, he adopted it as his own.  This is plainly an attempt to cast the problem of the scribal revision of the Qur'anic rhyme scheme -- obvious to any objective reader from the text itself -- into something that Mohammed himself approved and authored.  No matter how blatant the addition, revision, interpolation, abrogation, etc., just tell a story about how it fit into Mohammed's life and you are good-to-go.  Welding the Qur'anic text and an Arabian prophet together via biographical fiction.

    It is interesting to me to see how Muslims and ex-Muslims don't perceive the artificial nature of this apologetic approach, but what's far more amazing is how blithely secular Western scholars have been captivated by it as well!
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #35 - November 13, 2014, 09:02 PM

    So pretty much everything in the tradition is a weak attempt to smooth over errors, contradictions, and interpolation in the Quran? It seems a crime that scholars have uncritically accepted these stories for centuries.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #36 - November 13, 2014, 09:11 PM

    As long as we are dorking out on interpolations, here's another fabulous example I was reading the other day, though unfortunately the article is in German (I think the book it is from should be translated into English soon).  From the mighty and wondrous Manfred Kropp, it'll blow your mind:

    http://www.academia.edu/2492889/Koranische_Texte_als_Sprechakte_am_Beispiel_der_Sure_85

    But anybody can see the interpolations that Kropp is talking about just by looking at Surah 85 for themselves.

    http://quran.com/85

    First there are the verses 1-9, a bland Christian text about hellfire consistent with so much base Qur'anic material (which baffled the exegetes, nonetheless, and led to the fictitious 'battle of the trench' narrative).  Kropp explains the correct translation of these verses; 'the companions of the trench' does not refer to a historical battle in a trench.  Kropp translates it as "Inferno-Leute," meaning "hellfire people," aka the unbelievers burning in hell.  This is yet another hellfire sermon about the unbelievers.  That this was taken as referring to a historical event is hilarious miscomprehension, akin to the traditional narrative about Abu Lahab, yet another hellfire anecdote misunderstood as if it was a historical narrative.  Then there are verses 10-11, considerably longer, which use a different rhyme scheme.  Then there are the radically different verses 12-20, finally the jarring couplet 21-22 (upon which cryptic terms an entire theology was founded).

    The entire Surah is a remarkably crude assembly of bric-a-brac from different eras, with barely any scribal effort made to fit them together.  It's as though (almost certainly what happened) you took some of the shorter surahs that follow Surah 85 and just glued them together and called the composite a new Surah.  What is this?  It is debris, glued together and with some crude later interpolation used as the weld.  Surah 85 is probably what the longer Surahs looked like before they were worked on more heavily and patched up better; it is a rough draft of what the process of turning anonymous Qeryana texts into the Islamicized Qur'an *looked like*.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #37 - November 13, 2014, 09:23 PM

    I will briefly translate Kropp's reading to make the difference clear.  Traditional Muslim reading of Surah 85:4-6:

    Cursed were the companions of the trench
    [Containing] the fire full of fuel,
    When they were sitting near it

    Kropp's reading:

    The inferno-people will perish
    In the high-overflowing hellfire;
    And stay there for eternity!

    One is reminded of Abu Lahab in Surah 111, the "Father of Flame," bound for hell, who the later Muslims misinterpreted as a real historical figure and formed unbelievably elaborate narratives around -- rather than reading it correctly as an incredibly blatant metaphorical warning about hellfire.  Surah 111 and Surah 85:1-9 are the same genre and type of text, and both have been radically deformed via their incorporation into the Qur'an and subsequent misreading by Islamic exegesis as 'historical narrative.'
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #38 - November 13, 2014, 09:32 PM

    Do you have any evidence of hellfire being seen more of a condition of suffering in oneself by sinning than an actual destination?
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #39 - November 13, 2014, 09:47 PM

    I myself have never seen any suggestion of that in the Qur'an.  To me, the Qur'an seems to be absolutely relentless in its focus on hellfire being a real thing that the bad guys will experience for eternity following the Day of Judgment.  It pounds its fist almost obsessively on making this point very clear.

    The Bible is far more confusing, contradictory, and vague about what hell is, allowing for a multiplicity of interpretations.  By contrast, the Qur'an fights ardently to communicate that eternal hellfire is a reality of indescribable horror ... inescapable, certain, eternal, physical, horrible.  It is practically a defining characteristic of the Qur'anic unbelievers to fail to heed this warning about the reality of eternal hellfire, or to mock it (which, needless to say, will doom them to the fire).

    Surah 85:1-9 and Surah 111 being cases in point.  Abu Lahab, he is going to burn.  Inferno people, they are going to burn.  Not metaphorically.  Forever.  In huge, horrible, fiery fires of firesome fire.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #40 - November 13, 2014, 09:50 PM

    Interesting Zaotar. I meant in the surrounding cultural melee of that time. Was it seen as metaphor or an actual place?
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #41 - November 13, 2014, 11:07 PM

    I think the Qur'an itself suggests that the 'unbelievers' were not taking hell seriously as a real place of eternal physical torment, and one of the most central messages of the Qur'an is that the believers are on one side -- those who believe in the last judgment, the bodily resurrection, followed by eternal heaven/hellfire -- and those who scoff at these concepts.

    The Qur'an, in other words, sees itself in a society where some people believe in the reality of hellfire, and some don't, and it constantly goes ballistic trying to emphasize how badly the unbelievers will suffer for their scoffing attitude towards hellfire.

    So what did these unbelievers think about hell?  Unfortunately the Qur'an is not clear on the unbelievers' own views, which it never fairly articulates.  So we don't really know.  But I would assume they paralleled the various views of Christians and Jews in the Levant in the corresponding time period.  I don't know enough about that subject -- conceptions of hell in the 7th Century Levant -- to comment on what those views were like.

    That all said, I don't believe anybody saw hell as a metaphor for inner suffering.  That is an extremely modern conception that nobody would have had in late antiquity.

    There is a twist here, however.  Some of the original "Christian" material embedded in the Qur'an may genuinely have been delivered in a climate where Christianity was being preached amongst pagans.  So the unbelievers referred to in Surah 85:1-9 may conceivably have been GENUINE pagans at the time of its original composition.  But by the time the Qur'an was formed as a composite text, that environment had long departed, and everybody was a monotheist.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #42 - November 14, 2014, 12:30 AM

    Some scholarly type person who was studying Greek and Aramaic and Hebrew told me that the Hebrew word for hell was actually a valley outside of Jerusalem where people threw their garbage and burnt it.
    I don't remember the name. Gehenem? Gehenna?

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #43 - November 14, 2014, 01:12 AM

    Some scholarly type person who was studying Greek and Aramaic and Hebrew told me that the Hebrew word for hell was actually a valley outside of Jerusalem where people threw their garbage and burnt it.
    I don't remember the name. Gehenem? Gehenna?


    Yup

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

    Quote
    Gehenna (Greek γέεννα), Gehinnom (Rabbinical Hebrew: גהנום/גהנם) and Yiddish Gehinnam, are terms derived from a place outside ancient Jerusalem known in the Hebrew Bible as the Valley of the Son of Hinnom (Hebrew: גֵיא בֶן־הִנֹּם or גיא בן-הינום); one of the two principal valleys surrounding the Old City.

    In the Hebrew Bible, the site was initially where apostate Israelites and followers of various Ba'als and other Canaanite gods, including Moloch (or Molech), sacrificed their children by fire (2 Chr. 28:3, 33:6). Thereafter it was deemed to be cursed (Jer. 7:31, 19:2-6).[1]

    In Jewish, Christian, and Islamic scripture, Gehenna is a destination of the wicked.[2] This is different from the more neutral Sheol/Hades, the abode of the dead, though the King James version of the Bible translates both usually with the Anglo-Saxon word Hell.

  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #44 - November 14, 2014, 01:55 AM

    The depictions of hell are strikingly similar to how early church fathers from the 2nd-7th century explained hell. The church fathers even remarked about skins being burned off and replaced with new skin.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #45 - November 14, 2014, 08:59 AM

    Quote
    The second of the two dates, 940 years after Alexander, which marks the time of the final war preceding the Messiah’s return according to the prophecy, is converted likewise to 628–9 CE. The message of the prophecy actually concerns events around this date, which coincides with the end of a long and extremely difficult war between the Persians and the Romans (603–30) during which Jerusalem was devastated, the relic of the True Cross stolen from that city, and the Persians conquered Syria, Palestine, and Egypt, occupying Anatolia, too, and they even besieged Constantinople itself in 626 CE in concert with the Avars, who invaded from the north. The Byzantine remainder of the Roman Empire was only barely saved from the Persian onslaught by the emperor Heraclius’ daring campaign through Armenia, ending in the winter of 627–8 with a surprise invasion into Mesopotamia and damaging raids on the rich estates around Ctesiphon. In these invasions the Türks joined the Byzantines in raids south of the Caucasus at Heraclius’ invitation and afterwards continued to make war on Persian territory in Transcaucasia, plundering until 630. The Byzantine invasion of Mesopotamia led the Persian nobles to remove their King of Kings, Khosro II, from power in February of 628 and to negotiate for peace.33 Persian forces occupying former Byzantine territory withdrew to Persia in 629, and early in 630 Heraclius personally returned the relic of the True Cross to Jerusalem in a formal celebration. (Just a few months before Heraclius’ arrival in Jerusalem, tradition tells us, the inhabitants of Mecca surrendered peacefully to Muhammad and submitted to his government.) Given the date that Alexander’s prophecy signals, 628–9 CE, it must be referring to the devastating wars of that time and their successful end for the Romans.
           Reinink has shown that the Alexander Legend demonstrates, through its prophecy and its use of Alexander to prefigure the emperor Heraclius, detailed knowledge of the events of that war and its resolution with the restoration of the earlier borders, a peace treaty, and a final reference to Jerusalem. Using this information, too much to repeat entirely here, he has persuasively argued that the Alexander Legend was composed just after 628, perhaps in 630, the year in which Heraclius restored the cross to Jerusalem.34 In the course of the war, while the Byzantines were very hard pressed by the Persians, Heraclius resorted to highly religious propaganda in order to rally his allies and to improve Roman morale. This propaganda has received recent scholarly attention.35 Likewise Heraclius’ attempts to eradicate the schisms in the Church after the war are well known. Reinink considers Alexander Legend to be a piece of pro-Heraclian postwar propaganda designed to promote the emperor’s political cause not long after the war’s end, re-establishing Roman rule over provinces that had been under Persian power for well over a decade and trying to overcome the schismatic Christological differences dividing his Chalcedonian court from the monophysites of the provinces recently recovered from the Persians. His thesis is that the Syriac Legend of Alexander was composed “shortly after 628” (i.e. in 629 or 630) by an inhabitant of Amida or Edessa, or some other place near to those, in support of Heraclius.36 He argues that the monophysite Syrians were the primary audience (although it is possible that the story was intended also to win over monophysites of other nations such as Arabs).37 Heraclius’ visit to Edessa in late 629 might have been an occasion for its composition. It is also possible that the text was written a few months later when Heraclius restored the cross to Jerusalem

    ....


    My impression is that some Abrahamic brigands under a Syrian warlord possibly named Mohammed claimed a conquest of a ruined and not yet rebuilt Jerusalem on an off day when the local imperial forces were elsewhere, and or severely weakened by plague.

    All of these wars and battles between Rome and Persia were thought to be the end of the world.  Arabs were mercenary forces for all of these empires.

    A good propagandist might claim they won them!

    And we have a reason for the Hajj - actually the end of the world beginning to happen because of the events in Jerusalem.

    Dump all the Medina Mecca stuff - it is fiction.  Work out carefully who was actually involved how in what battles and when a recognisable arab empire actually starts.


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #46 - November 14, 2014, 09:03 AM

    Quote
    Heraclius resorted to highly religious propaganda in order to rally his allies and to improve Roman morale.


    And the koran is actually composed in Byzantium for propaganda purposes by the Roman Empire!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #47 - November 14, 2014, 12:36 PM

    Some parts anyway, and all this should make any believer become an instant atheist Wink Muslim exegesis relies on so much mental hoop jumping and besides, a supposedly eternal divine text like the Qur'an reads like a badly edited anthology where no one knew what the theme was.

    This whole thread took me hours to digest, Wiki-jumping wormholes included, but the analysis by the big guns is exemplary. What do you all do for a living that gives you such insight?
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #48 - November 14, 2014, 02:11 PM

    On hell. maybe Pagels needs to write about the Islamic perspective as well!

    Quote
    In 1988, when my husband of twenty years died in a hiking accident, I became aware that, like many people who grieve, I was living in the presence of an invisible being—living, that is, with a vivid sense of someone who had died. During the following years I began to reflect on the ways that various religious traditions give shape to the invisible world, and how our imaginative perceptions of what is invisible relate to the ways we respond to the people around us, to events, and to the natural world. I was reflecting, too, on the various ways that people from Greek, Jewish, and Christian traditions deal with misfortune and loss. Greek writers from Homer to Sophocles attribute such events to gods and goddesses, destiny and fate— elements as capricious and indifferent to human welfare as the “forces of nature” (which is our term for these forces).

    In the ancient Western world, of which I am a historian, many—perhaps most—people assumed that the universe was inhabited by invisible beings whose presence impinged upon the visible world and its human inhabitants. Ancient Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans envisioned gods, goddesses, and spirit beings of many kinds, while certain Jews and Christians, ostensibly monotheists, increasingly spoke of angels, heavenly messengers from God, and some spoke of fallen angels and demons. This was especially true from the first century of the common era onward.

    Conversion from paganism to Judaism or Christianity, I realized, meant, above all, transforming one's perception of the invisible world. To this day, Christian baptism requires a person to solemnly «renounce the devil and all his works» and to accept exorcism. The pagan convert was baptized only after confessing that all spirit beings previously revered—and dreaded—as divine were actually only “demons”—hostile spirits contending against the One God of goodness and justice, and against his armies of angels. Becoming either a Jew or a Christian polarized a pagan’s view of the universe, and moralized it. The Jewish theologian Martin Buber regarded the moralizing of the universe as one of the great achievements of Jewish tradition, later passed down as its legacy to Christians and Muslims.1 The book of Genesis, for example, insists that volcanoes would not have destroyed the towns of Sodom and Gomorrah unless all the inhabitants of those towns—all the inhabitants who concerned the storyteller, that is, the adult males—had been evil, “young and old, down to the last man” (Gen. 19:4).

    When I began this work, I assumed that Jewish and Christian perceptions of invisible beings had to do primarily with moralizing the natural universe, as Buber claimed, and so with encouraging people to interpret events ranging from illness to natural disasters as expressions of “God's will” or divine judgment on human sin. But my research led me in unexpected directions and disclosed a far more complex picture. Such Christians as Justin Martyr (140 C.E.), one of the “fathers of the church,” attributes affliction not to “God's will” but to the malevolence of Satan. His student Tatian allows for accident in the natural world, including disasters, for which, he says, God offers solace but seldom miraculous intervention. As I proceeded to investigate Jewish and Christian accounts of angels and fallen angels, I discovered, however, that they were less concerned with the natural world as a whole than with the particular world of human relationships.

    Rereading biblical and extra-biblical accounts of angels, I learned first of all what many scholars have pointed out: that while angels often appear in the Hebrew Bible, Satan, along with other fallen angels or demonic beings, is virtually absent. But among certain first-century Jewish groups, prominently including the Essenes (who saw themselves as allied with angels) and the followers of Jesus, the figure variously called Satan, Beelzebub, or Belial also began to take on central importance. While the gospel of Mark, for example, mentions angels only in the opening frame (1:13) and in the final verses of the original manuscript (16:5-7), Mark deviates from mainstream Jewish tradition by introducing “the devil” into the crucial opening scene of the gospel, and goes on to characterize Jesus’ ministry as involving continual struggle between God’s spirit and the demons, who belong, apparently, to Satan’s “kingdom” (see Mark 3:23-27). Such visions have been incorporated into Christian tradition and have served, among other things, to confirm for Christians their own identification with God and to demonize their opponents—first other Jews, then pagans, and later dissident Christians called heretics. This is what this book is about.

    To emphasize this element of the New Testament gospels does not mean, of course, that this is their primary theme. “Aren't the gospels about love?” exclaimed one friend as we discussed this work. Certainly they are about love, but since the story they have to tell involves betrayal and killing, they also include elements of hostility which evoke demonic images. This book concentrates on this theme.

    What fascinates us about Satan is the way he expresses qualities that go beyond what we ordinarily recognize as human. Satan evokes more than the greed, envy, lust, and anger we identify with our own worst impulses, and more than what we call brutality, which imputes to human beings a resemblance to animals (“brutes”). Thousands of years of tradition have characterized Satan instead as a spirit. Originally he was one of God's angels, but a fallen one. Now he stands in open rebellion against God, and in his frustrated rage he mirrors aspects of our own confrontations with otherness. Many people have claimed to see him embodied at certain times in individuals and groups that seem possessed by an intense spiritual passion, one that engages even our better qualities, like strength, intelligence, and devotion, but turns them toward destruction and takes pleasure in inflicting harm. Evil, then, at its worst, seems to involve the supernatural—what we recognize, with a shudder, as the diabolic inverse of Martin Buber's characterization of God as “wholly other.” Yet— historically speaking, at any rate—Satan, along with diabolical colleagues like Belial and Mastema (whose Hebrew name means “hatred”), did not materialize out of the air. Instead, as we shall see, such figures emerged from the turmoil of first-century Palestine, the setting in which the Christian movement began to grow.

    I do not intend to do here what other scholars already have done well: The literary scholar Neil Forsyth, in his excellent recent book The Old Enemy, has investigated much of the literary and cultural background of the figure of Satan;2 Walter Wink and the psychoanalyst Carl Gustav Jung and some of his followers have studied Satan’s theological and psychological implications.3 Jeffrey Burton Russell and others have attempted to investigate cross-cultural parallels between the figure of Satan and such figures as the Egyptian god Set or the Zoroastrian evil power Ahriman.4 What interests me instead are specifically social implications of the figure of Satan: how he is invoked to express human conflict and to characterize human enemies within our own religious traditions.

    In this book, then, I invite you to consider Satan as a reflection of how we perceive ourselves and those we call “others.”


    http://zalbarath666.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/elaine-pagels-the-origin-of-satan.pdf

    Any good artist here do a painting of Satan at the local council rubbish tip?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #49 - November 14, 2014, 04:28 PM

    Just reading comments elsewhere that Shoemaker is middle of the road because he thinks there was a mohammed, and many German scholars in contrast have no problem saying goodbye Mohammed!

    Quote
    Those sources don't show Mohammed existed. I remember Ohlig discussing that in German:

    http://www.inarah.de/cms/die-christlich ... ndert.html
    http://www.inarah.de/cms/en/hinweise-au ... -teil.html

    Ohlig also mentions Nevo:

    http://www.amazon.com/Crossroads-Islam- ... 1591020832

    Pressburg says Mohammed never existed (in German):

    http://www.islamfacts.info/Islamfacts/D ... hamad.html

    Doctrina Iacobi is no exception:

    http://elektratig.blogspot.com/2012/06/ ... acobi.html

    They also critique Donner here:

    http://www.inarah.de/cms/en/some-aspect ... tnote80anc
    http://www.inarah.de/cms/fruehe-spanisc ... tnote39anc
    http://www.2013.inarah.de/index.php?id=140#_ednref104

    Kalisch also doubts Mohammed existed (in German):

    http://www.uni-muenster.de/imperia/md/c ... hammad.pdf
    http://www.imprimatur-trier.de/2010/imp100306.html
    http://www.inarah.de/cms/islamische-rel ... aeten.html

    Here are articles about Kalisch in English:

    http://en.qantara.de/content/criticism-of-islamic-theologian-muhammad-kalisch-doubt-about-muhammads-existence-poses
    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122633888141714211.html



    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #50 - November 14, 2014, 05:47 PM

    I would not say many German scholars.  I would say a handful take that position, and even within the Inarah group itself, only a handful of them explicitly hold to this.

    Their efforts to defend the 'no Mohammed' position are very unconvincing to me, and require pretty tortured analysis to explain away the earliest non-Muslim sources, particularly the Doctrina Jacobii and the Chronicles of Sebeos ... which to me are basically knock-down proof that an Arabian prophet was known in connection with the conquests of the 630s, and also that there were oral traditions about him circulating by the 650s/660s (albeit traditions wildly different than what later became Islam).

    Of course equally tortured and unconvincing analysis of the earliest texts and inscriptions is required to show that anybody resembling the *Muslim prophet* Mohammed ever lived.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #51 - November 14, 2014, 07:39 PM

    The fact that within a decade after Muhammad's death non-Muslim sources were mentioning the existence of an Arabian (or Saracen) prophet is good evidence that he existed. Compare that to Jesus and the only mention of him outside of Christian sources in the first century is a spurious passage in Josephus' writings. The vast majority of scholars think Jesus existed, so I would say you would be pretty safe in saying that an Arabian prophet existed who was an influential monotheistic preacher probably named Muhammad.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #52 - November 14, 2014, 07:42 PM

    That's not true, Tacitus also mentions Jesus and he had access to numerous now lost Roman chronicles. But anyway 100% agreed the "Muhammad never existed" school relies on really twisted readings of the early non-Muslim chronicles just the same way Jesus mythicists rely on a really twisted reading of St. Paul's letters in particular his phrase "kata sarka" "according to the flesh." 

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Anti-Trinitarian Interpolation in Surah Maryam
     Reply #53 - November 14, 2014, 08:08 PM

    I think the Inarah guys have some very interesting points about Mohammed's name being a later borrowing, a rare theophoric description originally applied to Jesus (the 'chosen one' or 'praised one'), which was posthumously assigned to the Arabian prophet by people now operating in circumstances far removed from the prophet's actual life (think St. Paul pontificating about the life of Jesus).  This in the context of later Arabs parallelizing Mohammed and Jesus, a classic Qur'anic trope.

    So when Luxenberg says that Mohammed I was Jesus, and Mohammed II was only subsequently understood as an Islamicized Arab prophet, I don't *entirely* disagree with the linguistic observation -- I just disagree with the historical and theological attempt to conflate this linguistic derivation with the life of the Arabian prophet.  The earliest mention of Mohammed I know if is in the Chronicles of Sebeos ... composed around 660 AD ... where he is called "Mahmet."  There are exactly zero mentions of Mohammed in any of the many Arabic inscriptions and coins until 685 AD, the very-first Arabic inscription to mention Mohammed.  Thus the idea of a widespread tradition of an Arabian prophet named Mohammed that accompanied the Arab conquests is, to me, completely untenable.  Only later did a fervor of Mohammedanism arise.  And the very name Mohammed itself is just far too suspicious for my lights, as well as used in very suspicious and limited fashion in the Qur'an (three stages:  (1) Meccan Surahs, where we only hear about an anonymous messenger/rasul; (2) Medinan Surahs, where now we hear about a 'nabi,' i.e. prophet' and (3) the few cryptic ayas where the name "Mohammed" is used, only two of which (both suspiciously late interpolations in many respects) are clear names.  This is how we go from anonymous monotheistic messenger to an Arabian prophet named Mohammed ... by process over decades.  Of course it could also be argued this reflects how little the Qur'an's composition ever had to do with Mohammed in the first place!!!

    But the fact of late Islamicizing does not prove that there was nothing they were doing their Islamicizing upon ... just that the material they were Islamicizing was radically different than what the tradition ultimately created.

    You see the same thing, as Count Julian says, in the mythicist movement.  The mythicists rightly seize on the radical transformations and deformations that can be shown in Early Christian narratives and beliefs (which parallel quite remarkably those in Early Islam), and argue that the logical conclusion is that these transformations were being imposed on .... complete fiction.  This is just too hard to sensibly reconcile with the earliest evidence, here St. Paul's letters.
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