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 Topic: Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates

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  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     OP - December 16, 2014, 11:00 PM
    In this video Tzortzis starts off by talking about how the atheist and secularist movements are a " force to be reckoned with".
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rz23OARabbU


    He talks about how the rapid spread of atheism and how atheism is even spreading to staunchly fundamentlaist muslim countries as Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.

    After that he says that he doesn't like participating in debates anymore because they are not an effective form of dawah.

    I guess his opponents tearing apart his arguments on camera is not really helping his cause.  Grin

    The rest of the video he says that when doing dawah muslims should not focus as much on arguments anymore and instead just talk about how the belief in god is natural and self evident.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #1 - December 16, 2014, 11:27 PM
    Quote
    just talk about how the belief in god is natural and self evident.


    Except that it's not. Or else they wouldn't need to bother giving dawah about it.
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #2 - December 16, 2014, 11:32 PM
    Spiritual algebra.

    When is Mars going to be habitable, again?
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #3 - December 16, 2014, 11:58 PM
    its closer to the case that islam presents of itself. Most dawah is pretty far removed than anything the quran is really about. But 'fitrah' can never be a convincing argument, or even an argument at all.
    God isn't self evident; he is made evident in the timely orbit of the big yellow thing around the dahaha earth; and the figs. Islam's case is basically a babyish and long winded version of a teleological argument. That is what dawah boyz should be arguing.

    he is right about the force to be reckoned with too.
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #4 - December 17, 2014, 12:48 AM
    Wow. I only now bothered listening to this. Did he really just stoop to the level of every Bible-thumping inbred American redneck? "God said it. I believe it. End of."
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #5 - December 17, 2014, 01:14 AM
    It's interesting to see Hamza changing over the years, a few years ago he was endorsing the embryology nonsense and other 'scientific miracles', I would not have thought back then I would hear him give a talk like this, before IERA and all the miracle mumbojumbo he was apart of an Islamist organisation, he has long ago moved away from that now. Perhaps a sign of insecurity.

    Next step, apostasy  Afro

     
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #6 - December 17, 2014, 01:14 AM
    Why does getting people to think that a God exists make them think Islam is true? Aren't Jews, Sikhs, and Bahai's equally monotheistic?
    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #7 - December 17, 2014, 01:48 AM
    Quote from: happymurtad on December 17, 2014, 12:48 AM
    Wow. I only now bothered listening to this. Did he really just stoop to the level of every Bible-thumping inbred American redneck? "God said it. I believe it. End of."

     

    Well there's not much else he can do. The scientific miracles nonsense he was peddling at the beginning of his career has been thoroughly debunked by you tubers and his debate opponents have rebutted his arguments for islam on camera for everyone to see.

    I have a feeling he's going to be fading out of the dawah scene soon. 

    He might even end up at this forum sometime in the future.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #8 - December 17, 2014, 02:16 AM
    I didn't watch the full video, only about the first ten minutes, but what he is saying sounds straight out of the pages of Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab's works. I worry this might actually represent a more back to fundamentals approach. He's quoting Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn al Jawzi now instead of Hume and Craig.
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #9 - December 17, 2014, 02:18 AM
    Quote from: TheDarkRebel on December 16, 2014, 11:00 PM

    he says that when doing dawah muslims should not focus as much on arguments anymore and instead just talk about how the belief in god is natural and self evident.


    LOL I can't believe that. The evolution of Tzortzis's arguments.

    First and foremost, "scientific miracles" & "historical miracles"  -> "linguistic miracle" -> "God is self evident so shut up and believe in OUR god".

    I doubt he will give up the linguistic miracle though. It's vague and unfalsifiable which is perfect for his apologetics.
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #10 - December 17, 2014, 02:20 AM
    their dawah basically involves 'high pressure salesman' type standing on streets in cities, and targeting vulnerable, lonely people. And its a great money earner for them.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #11 - December 17, 2014, 02:22 AM
    Quote from: justperusing on December 17, 2014, 01:14 AM
    Why does getting people to think that a God exists make them think Islam is true? Aren't Jews, Sikhs, and Bahai's equally monotheistic?


    Exactly, all of these arguments don't even prove a single thing in Islam's favour. They're just general deist apologetics. The whole thing is a farce.

    Its actually hilarious to watch some of their videos on evolution and other stuff, watching them talking nonsense, the wheels in their heads visibly creaking as they recite the bollocks they've been fed.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #12 - December 17, 2014, 06:21 AM
    Quote from: billy on December 17, 2014, 02:20 AM
    their dawah basically involves 'high pressure salesman' type standing on streets in cities, and targeting vulnerable, lonely people. And its a great money earner for them.


    I regret to say that I used to work in door-to-door and business-to-business sales, selling car maintenance packages. The dawah I've seen uses the same tactics that I used in the selling process.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uikkBGyebzc
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #13 - December 17, 2014, 07:22 AM
    The back to basics return to fundamentalist ideas he is portaying in the video might actually be a cry for help faith wise. Not to other people, but god. "Allah I really want to keep my faith, please guide me to the right path"... or something like that. I think that Hamza belongs to those type of Muslims, particularly from the convert group, who's too deep in the shit so intelectually he won't allow himself to leave even though he more or less have reached a stage where the natural thing would be to say "fuck this shit, I know it's bs so let's move on with my life". Yusuf Islam is like that. I have a friend I was very close with who is like that, I know she knows deep inside, but too bad her life is too entangled in Islam and she too weak to get out of it. Sooner or later he'll take a step back from the frontline, and perhaps then either go on with the braindead "god said it so it's true", or perhaps phase out to a more lenient approah like Yusuf Islam has.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #14 - December 17, 2014, 12:58 PM
    the three white men who lead iERA -- Tzortzis, Chambers and Green won't ever leave what they're doing, because its such a money earner. They raise hundreds of thousands and must be paying themselves a good salary. Where else are they going to earn an honest wage, these useless fanatics? Its all a scam.

    Here's some salafis who have a dim view of them

    http://www.aqidah.com/creed/articles/apzfw-advice-to-hamza-tzortzis-and-company-iera-part-1.cfm
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #15 - December 17, 2014, 03:26 PM
    Quote from: Cornflower on December 17, 2014, 07:22 AM
    or perhaps phase out to a more lenient approah like Yusuf Islam has.

     

    Here's the difference.  Yusuf Islam can easily make money through his music and plenty of other places even if he openly leaves islam.

    Like billy said, if Hamza leaves he has no other way of earning a decent living.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #16 - December 17, 2014, 03:37 PM
    I'll always be the first person to say that I think Hamza Tzortzis is just barely too smart for this, but that doesn't really mean anything. I remember how long it took me to acknowledge my own dishonesty as an apologist, and I had far less invested in Islam than he does.

    He's in so deep now and rewarded so well for it that his internal defenses will be miles high, and if somehow he ever does realize
    that he's full of it, it would take balls that I don't think he has to do anything besides carry on as he has been. I'm not sure I'd be able to do it, either.
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #17 - December 17, 2014, 03:52 PM
    Quote from: TheDarkRebel on December 17, 2014, 03:26 PM


    Here's the difference.  Yusuf Islam can easily make money through his music and plenty of other places even if he openly leaves islam.

    Like billy said, if Hamza leaves he has no other way of earning a decent living.



    I think you would be surprised.

    If such a high profile dawhgandist such as Hamza who has played such a big role in the whole dawah movement over the years suddenly decided to jump ship, I'm sure he could find somewhere where his insiders knowledge and insightful perspective Is worth a fair bit of money.
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #18 - December 17, 2014, 08:12 PM
    Hamza can't really leave. He has 5 muslim children from his 2 nikaabi wives that he has to financially maintain. As far as I'm aware the top guys at iERA pay themselves around 35k-45k a year, so the iERA job supports the 5 kids and 2 wives. Without islamic proselyting he has nothing to fall back on, no education, no qualifications. Before he became a proselyter he was a trainee project manager and they are on 12-16k a year.

    If he was to leave islam or salafism at best he could down the route of making a lucrative  career as an "ex-extremist fighting extremism" which is what Maajid Nawaz/Usama Hasan/Ed Hussain have done. In fact his statements and views and being part of hate group iERA would make him a more genuine bona fida ex-extremist then Maajid, Ed or Usama have ever been, who are notorious for their embellishments and exaggerations Obviously even this route would probably detach Hamza from his 2 nikaabi wives and his children with them.
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #19 - December 18, 2014, 11:25 AM
    So Mr Tortoise is really grabbing at straws now, no we don't have evidence that God exists but the onus is on you to prove he does not, our axiomatic belief tells us he does so  Tongue

    https://www.facebook.com/HamzaAndreasTzortzis/posts/905530592790709
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #20 - December 18, 2014, 11:45 AM
    I dont get the feeling that Hamza is the sort to admit he is wrong and move on with his life. This guy was on video saying beheadings are painless, shamelessly promoting this stuff.  He knows what he is doing.  You dont come back from that kind of crazy
    Oh my Christopher Hitchens its a fihrrrrrrrrrrrr
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #21 - December 18, 2014, 01:49 PM
    Quote from: Dr_Zhivago on December 18, 2014, 11:25 AM
    So Mr Tortoise is really grabbing at straws now, no we don't have evidence that God exists but the onus is on you to prove he does not, our axiomatic belief tells us he does so  Tongue

    https://www.facebook.com/HamzaAndreasTzortzis/posts/905530592790709


    Even one of his fans in the comments thinks this argument is nonsense:

    Quote
    Rahme Butaineh As a Muslim, I think the above stated argument is bogus. Regarding the first part, that we should rephrase the question from "does God exist," to "what evidence do we have to reject him?" the burden of proof lies with the one making the affirmative claim. It's not the atheist job to prove a negation, like the question above. Their claim that God does not exist is a reaction to our affirmative claim "God exists." The burden of proof relies on us.

    The second part of this post, that God is self-evident, well I guess that depends on the individual self. While it is flagrantly evident to those who have taken some time of their life to ask themselves about God's existence, and study the proofs the Quran gives, and go through the logical and philosophical arguments we have, it's not "self-evident" for most. It would be really hard for me to agree that the claim "God exists," is axiomatic, given that it's been debated for the past two millennia. I think the fact the Allah (swt) sent prophets since the time of our existence to represent Him, to bring people to Him, to show us that He is there and watching, is a proof that His existence cannot so easily be described as "self-evident." If it were, what would the point be of sending prophets if we already knew the truth?

  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #22 - December 18, 2014, 02:01 PM
    ^ He really has stooped to the level of a whole new type of retardedness with that bullshit.
    "The healthiest people I know are those who are the first to label themselves fucked up." - three
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #23 - December 18, 2014, 02:07 PM
    islamic apologetics is moving into pressupositionalism and reformed epistemology.
    dawah follows the same trajectory as christian apologetics, only a few years behind. So it was easy to see coming.

    They don't like offering evidence for their claims anymore because they learned from experience that their evidence is so easily rebutted.
    Nowadays, they refuse the skeptic the license to assess their evidence, until they have completed the circular task of 'accounting for the laws of logic' or the reliability of reason. Or in this case, simply asserted that god is one of the 'properly basic beliefs', and therefore doesn't need evidence.

    The whole endeavour is pretty hopeless, and many skeptics who deal with the same nonsense from christians consider it a kamikaze move. Apologists have basically given up. We won  parrot

     
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #24 - December 18, 2014, 02:24 PM
    Quote from: justperusing on December 17, 2014, 01:14 AM
    Why does getting people to think that a God exists make them think Islam is true? Aren't Jews, Sikhs, and Bahai's equally monotheistic?


    G od's existence
    O neness
    R evelation
    A nd
    P ropethood

    They believe that they can inch a prospect towards Islam step by step, by using the GORAP method, which first aims to establish that there is a god at all. Being GORAPed is a terrible thing. Precautions should be taken.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=US-X48SdGvc
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #25 - December 18, 2014, 02:48 PM
    For real? I guess they really didn't want to call it GORP to have included "and."
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #26 - December 18, 2014, 02:50 PM
    i suggested that they call it GORM. M being Muhammed
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #27 - December 18, 2014, 03:55 PM
    Quote from: dr_sloth on December 18, 2014, 02:24 PM
    G od's existence
    O neness
    R evelation
    A nd
    P ropethood


    This sounds very familiar, maybe like the pillars of imaan? I remember though there was also something about belief in the day of judgement and angels too though. I guess that's not so important just to rack up a conversion.  Tongue
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #28 - December 18, 2014, 04:18 PM
    Terrible acronym.
  • Tzortzis Doesn't like Debates
     Reply #29 - December 18, 2014, 04:26 PM
    A in't
    T hat
    T he
    T ruth
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