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 Topic: Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo

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  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #270 - January 11, 2015, 05:16 PM
    I disagree with most of what he says. He's spot on regarding this though.
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #271 - January 11, 2015, 05:43 PM
    Let's take comfort in what Hitchens would say aboutt his:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw3dDbc1BHE


    Should I provide commentary or am I spamming?

    Racism is not an attack against an idea. Attacking ideas - religion -is legit.

    FIRE!

    FIRE!!
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #272 - January 11, 2015, 06:19 PM
    Quote from: Abu Ali on January 11, 2015, 05:07 PM
    I like Douglas Murray. I don't agree with everything he says but he does talk a lot of sense and is unafraid to say it.

    I like him too. He is bright, fearless and well-intentioned.

    He and I live different lives and have different perspectives, but that's what pluralism is all about.
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #273 - January 11, 2015, 06:51 PM
    Did anyone catch him on TBQ which has returned tot eh BBC today?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04ykfzk/the-big-questions-series-8-episode-1

    The MPAC are truly suffering from victimhood.
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #274 - January 11, 2015, 07:04 PM
    Quote from: Abu Ali on January 10, 2015, 03:24 PM
    It concerns me a little that we are all expected to fall in line and not criticise the magazine - a sort of "You're either with us, or against us" dichotomy and that defending free speech is not enough - but you have to actually have to "agree with" and "like" every vulgar or crude article or cartoons that any idiot does.

    That I find very disturbing.


    At least here anyway, I don't think I've seen anyone mention that.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #275 - January 11, 2015, 08:11 PM
    ^^ although I agree with the right to dislike the cartoons, perhaps because they are overly offensive and unnecessarily vulgar, I think now is not the time to express that opinion. That blurs the issue. We should focus instead on entirely condemning the massacre, as well as the individuals who carried out it, and the religion that drove them to it. There should be no 'but' appended to the the condemnation. Every time I see one, my stomach turns.
    Hi
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #276 - January 11, 2015, 08:13 PM
    My interpretation of freedom of speech:

    You can be criticised for what you say, but not persecuted for what you say.
    Could I make any revisions? my thoughts regarding this topic are nascent.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #277 - January 11, 2015, 08:19 PM
    Most read article on the guardian at the moment is below. I feel for this guy, but his message that 'Islam is the religion of love', coming as it does from someone so affected and central to the events, does not help:

    Paris policeman’s brother: ‘Islam is a religion of love. My brother was killed by terrorists, by false Muslims’

    http://gu.com/p/44n58

    Hi
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #278 - January 11, 2015, 08:22 PM
    Quote from: Qtian on January 11, 2015, 08:13 PM
    My interpretation of freedom of speech:

    Yviolence criticised for what you say, but npersecuted for what you say.
    Could I make any revisions? my thoughts regarding this topic are nascent.


    There are limits. For example inciting violence and slander. For those, you can be prosecuted.
    Hi
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #279 - January 11, 2015, 08:24 PM
    Of course, but to persecute is different from prosecution.
    I don't think that my definition is incompatible with necessary action given incitement to hate/terrorise etc...
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #280 - January 11, 2015, 08:46 PM
    Ah, sorry. I thought you were asking a question, not offering your thoughts. Plus I thought that you'd meant prosecute, not persecute. I'm no expert, but your statement seems a good one?

    What does nascent mean btw?
    Hi
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #281 - January 11, 2015, 08:57 PM
    No probs man, I like being wrong as much as possible as it's the best way for me to adjust my beliefs.

    Quote
    nascent
    ˈnas(ə)nt,ˈneɪ-/
    adjective
    adjective: nascent

        (especially of a process or organization) just coming into existence and beginning to display signs of future potential.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #282 - January 11, 2015, 09:01 PM
    Quote from: musivore on January 11, 2015, 08:11 PM
    ^^ although I agree with the right to dislike the cartoons, perhaps because they are overly offensive and unnecessarily vulgar, I think now is not the time to express that opinion. That blurs the issue. We should focus instead on entirely condemning the massacre, as well as the individuals who carried out it, and the religion that drove them to it. There should be no 'but' appended to the the condemnation. Every time I see one, my stomach turns.


    I beg to differ.

    You can't defend free speech by suppressing free speech. When anyone tells me I shouldn't express an opinion, alarm bells go off.

    Also, it's easy to defend free speech that we agree with. But if free speech is to really mean anything then we must also defend the speech (or cartoons) we disagree with - and make a point of saying so.

    Otherwise we make it appear that we cannot extend the right of free speech to those we disagree with. This NOT the message we should be sending!!

    This only creates a false unity and simplistic dichotomy of 'them' and 'us' and your with us or against us - that those on the far-right will try to exploit to impose their own oppressive ideology.
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #283 - January 11, 2015, 09:02 PM
    I heard on the news that the girl hijacker escaped to Syria, but if she was in the kosher shop surrounded by police how did she escape ?  unless she wasn't in the shop to begin with..
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #284 - January 11, 2015, 09:08 PM
    I think they now say she wasn't in the shop.
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #285 - January 11, 2015, 09:25 PM
    It always worries me when everyone is telling you which direction to march in  - I hate mob mentality and hysteria - it makes me want to go the opposite way.
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #286 - January 11, 2015, 09:28 PM
    Quote from: Abu Ali on January 11, 2015, 09:08 PM
    I think they now say she wasn't in the shop.


    K thanks
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #287 - January 11, 2015, 09:39 PM
    Quote from: Abu Ali on January 11, 2015, 09:01 PM
    I beg to differ.

    You can't defend free speech by suppressing free speech. When anyone tells me I can't express an opinion, alarm bells go off.

    Also, it's easy to defend free speech that we agree with. But if free speech is to really mean anything then we must also defend the speech (or cartoons) we disagree with - and make a point of saying so.

    Otherwise we make it appear that we cannot extend the right of free speech to those we disagree with. This NOT the message we should be sending!!

    This only creates a false unity and simplistic dichotomy of 'them' and 'us' and your with us or against us - that those on the far-right will try to exploit to impose their own oppressive ideology.



    I wouldn't dream of taking your right to free speech away, or anyone else's. I'm just disappointed when people on the left condemn the acts, and then try to offer some justification towards them because of the offensive nature of some of the cartoons. The fact that these cartoons may have been somewhat provocative pales into insignificance when the retaliation for them is so disproportionately evil and inhumane. It is the inhumane act that should be our entire focus. Anything else dampens the universal condemnation that should follow something as devastating and as unacceptable as this.
    Hi
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #288 - January 11, 2015, 09:43 PM
    Again I disagree. Our condemnation of these attacks and the sincerity of our support for free speech is all the more stronger and effective when we are defending the free speech of others we disagree with. (And that is seen to be the case.)
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #289 - January 11, 2015, 09:47 PM
    I'd have to agree with Hass in this case.

    Quote
    It is the inhumane act that should be our entire focus


    In doing this, you almost undermine the reason for why these acts should be seen as inhumane. Cartoonists were slaughtered for fucking depicting images of Muhammad. If you are saying that these acts are inhumane, you have to focus on the stimulus i.e. why are they inhumane?

    One may answer: "Because people were killed".

    I will then ask: "Why were they killed?"


    We will then go around in circles, until we realise that for as long as depicting images of Muhammad is a stigma, disproportionate reaction to events will occur.

    If the events leading to the slaughter at Charlie Hebdo tell us nothing more, at least they have told us the above.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #290 - January 11, 2015, 09:52 PM
    Quote from: musivore on January 11, 2015, 09:39 PM
    I'm just disappointed when people on the left condemn the acts, and then try to offer some justification towards them because of the offensive nature of some of the cartoons.


    and I have certainly never suggested they offer any justification. Quite the contrary - there is no justification and I have heard others who disapprove of some of Charlie Hebdo work say exactly the same thing - that there is absolutely NO justification.

    If people then still read into that a justification, that's really not my problem but theirs.

    As I say I am very wary of mob mentality at times like this and expectations that we must all fall into line.

    I went through hell to leave that sort of mentality behind when I left Islam - I'm certainly not going to fall in line for anyone now!
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #291 - January 11, 2015, 10:09 PM
    Quote from: Abu Ali on January 11, 2015, 09:43 PM
    Again I disagree. Our condemnation of these attacksLet the sincerity of our support for free speech is all the more stronger and effective when we are defending the free speech of others we disagree with. (And that is seen to be the case.)


    I have no problems with others holding differing opinions about those cartoons, and even expressing them. It would be hypocritical to take that away from people. At the same time, it disappoints me when the liberal left goes there, in the same articles or posts where they are condemning the attacks. Because of that, we come across as being divided and fractured in our response to something that needs an urgent an united front. If we don't provide that, the right will wrestle the argument away from us, and we will be mere bystanders to the chaos that will ensue.

    I don't have the fight or intellect in me to convince either you or Q on this. And I don't think you will change my opinion on this. And that is my point. We are similar, yet different. It is that difference that others will ultimately capitalise upon.
    Hi
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #292 - January 11, 2015, 10:12 PM
    Quote
    This is Mon Beauf, one of Charlie Hebdo's most popular characters. He is the brainchild of murdered cartoonist Jean Cabut.
    Mon Beauf, which translates to "My brother-in-law," was a caricature of an oafish, bigoted and ignorant man. This character became so popular that the slang term 'beauf,' (slob) cemented its place in France.
    To those who claim that Charlie Hebdo did nothing to counter bigotry, put that in your pipe and smoke it.

    Tehmina (of British Muslims for Secular Democracy, but on her private profile)



    Also a comment I made elsewhere:

    ----
    The French are pulling their hair out right now because what was seen as a staunch anti-establishment left-wing lighthouse with a long tradition is being presented like it is in English-language media.

    EVERY drawing they made had an IMMINENT context - it was NOT just mockery for the sake of mockery.

    Dig this:

    Quote
    "You have no idea how much the french community on tumblr is feeling betrayed. We stood by your side many times in the recent weeks, we educated ourselves about the situation in the US, we read, we learnt. Now, our country is suffering and I read everywhere that Charlie Hebdo was a racist journal, that they had it coming.

    1. It was not. NO ONE, I repeat literally NO ONE in France ever considered Charlie Hebdo as racist. We might have considered the drawings tasteless, but NOT racists. For the very simple reason that WE FUCKING KNOW OUR POLITICS. So, when you see the covers of the journal out of context and without understanding french, you’re seeing maybe 10% of what there’s to see. I’m not going to explain them one by one to you, because other posts on tumblr do that very well, but just for the sake of example :"


    Quote
    You see a black woman’s head on a monkey body. RACISM ! Except that every french person will recognize our french justice minister, Christiane Taubira, and the blue-white-red flame on the left. This is the logo of the Front National, the far-right party in France. And every french person knows that the Front National was under attack for having compared Christiane Taubira to a monkey in this :



    More in the link:
    http://67-tardis-street.tumblr.com/post/107589955860/dear-us-followers
    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #293 - January 11, 2015, 10:19 PM
    Quote from: musivore on January 11, 2015, 10:09 PM
    I have no problems with others holding differing opinions about those cartoons, and even expressing them. It would be hypocritical to take that away from people. At the same time, it disappoints me when the liberal left goes there, in the same articles or posts where they are condemning the attacks. Because of that, we come across as being divided and fractured in our response to something that needs an urgent an united front. If we don't provide that, the right will wrestle the argument away from us, and we will be mere bystanders to the chaos that will ensue.

    I don't have the fight or intellect in me to convince either you or Q on this. And I don't think you will change my opinion on this. And that is my point. We are similar, yet different. It is that difference that others will ultimately capitalise upon.


    Sorry if I came across a bit strong. Iget a bit carried away at times. I certainly do understand what you are saying. We both come from communities that do use criticisms like this to justify the attacks and does piss me off too.

    I just think we should try to discriminate between those who want to express an opinion but in no way mean it as a justification.
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #294 - January 11, 2015, 10:27 PM
    You didn't at all. I'm sorry if I did.

    I agree that we don't have to all share the same opinions on the cartoons. But I do think that I am one of those people that, when I see a 'this is awful and unacceptable....but' in an article, the 'but' bit jumps out at me and stays with me. It's a difference in perspective I think. I'd rather not see that 'but', but you would defend everyone's right to their own opinions to your dying day.
    Hi
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #295 - January 11, 2015, 10:32 PM
    Quote from: Qtian on January 11, 2015, 09:47 PM
    I'd have to agree with Hass in this case.

    In doing this, you almost undermine the reason for why these acts should be seen as inhumane. Cartoonists were slaughtered for fucking depicting images of Muhammad. If you are saying that these acts are inhumane, you have to focus on the stimulus i.e. why are they inhumane?

    One may answer: "Because people were killed".

    I will then ask: "Why were they killed?"


    We will then go around in circles, until we realise that for as long as depicting images of Muhammad is a stigma, disproportionate reaction to events will occur.

    If the events leading to the slaughter at Charlie Hebdo tell us nothing more, at least they have told us the above.



    I do think we need to address the source of all of this. But when we dig far enough down, it's not the offensive cartoons that we will find there. IMO, it is Islam, and the way the Quran and even Sunnah are taken as the literal word of God, and the way Mohammed is taken as a perfect example for all mankind for all time. It is that that we need to work on, not offensive drawings.
    Hi
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #296 - January 11, 2015, 10:44 PM
    Quote from: musivore on January 11, 2015, 10:27 PM
    you would defend everyone's right to their own opinions to your dying day.


    Yep :-)
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #297 - January 11, 2015, 10:51 PM
    Quote
    It is the inhumane act that should be our entire focus. Anything else dampens the universal condemnation that should follow something as devastating and as unacceptable as this.


    I've deleted the majority of this first quote, because I agree with everything up until the above.

    Quote
    I do think we need to address the source of all of this. But when we dig far enough down, it's not the offensive cartoons that we will find there. IMO, it is Islam, and the way the Quran and even Sunnah are taken as the literal word of God, and the way Mohammed is taken as a perfect example for all mankind for all time. It is that that we need to work on, not offensive drawings.


    We've barely started digging, let's dig some more.

    I was not claiming that we would find "Charlie Hebdo" right in the throes of Islamic scripture. I also was not saying that the offensive cartoons were the source of everything.  I'm saying that whatever worldview the murderers subscribed to, it was manifested in the slaughtering of the cartoonists. People drew cartoons of Muhammad, some overly murderous crybabies then took it upon themselves to kill the cartoonists. Just because the seriousness of the murder far outweighs the seriousness of the depictions, I don't see this as a reason to ignore the cartoons. As aforementioned, this would mean that we are neglecting the stimulus (or perhaps, one of the very many stimuli).

    tl;dr: We will draw cartoons of Muhammad. You have the right to criticise our actions at any given moment, but nut jobs don't have the right to murder us.

    I'm subscribing to the idea of "natura non facit saltum", with regards to reformation coming in a manner that is akin to chipping away at a block, rather than bulldozing a house of beliefs down.

    However, I'm not saying that we shouldn't attack Islam as the source of this. What I'm saying is that I've yet to be presented with an argument that convinces me of the following: " We should focus on the inhumane act only".

    I say we treat the issue holistically, and realise that most people understand that "murder is wrong" is self evident. But for some reason, some of those people don't realise that "murdering cartoonists who draw images of Muhammad is wrong" is equally self evident.

    We need to work on both the disproportionate reactions behind the cartoons (which involves giving weight to the actual cartoons) & the Islam behind all of it.
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #298 - January 11, 2015, 11:26 PM
    I get where Musivore is coming from, personally. I don't much care for the cartoons, I find most cartoons like this to be tasteless, but whatever. However, that being discussed in the immediate aftermath of the shooting to the level that it is, especially given that many people are actually trying to justify the attacks as the magazine's fault to various degrees with the same accusations, is more hurting the matter than helping.

    It's great when someone is very clear that they dislike the magazines but that it's no excuse, but I do think a lot of liberal critics are failing to do this. Now, yes, obviously, say whatever you'd like, but I'm afraid I suspect that having the offensiveness and tastelessness of the cartoons being discussed to the extent that they have been in the past couple days has actually been a distraction.

    I get the same cringey feeling when I hear someone say, "I agree that it's no excuse to shoot him, but you have to admit he was a thug," (and 20 other ways of rephrasing this courtesy of my relatives) or find the time opportune after an assault to give their opinions on the victim's clothing choices, even if it's followed by an emphatic "but it's no excuse." It can be said totally innocuously and can be true, but Musivore is right in that those who in some way support the killings or are even on the fence will likely exploit this, and the message of "this is unequivocally not okay and not up for discussion" may get watered down with the excess discussion.

    Still, I also don't like the mob mentality, and no, I won't be parading around with the cartoons, either. This shouldn't be mistaken as not supporting the victims. But I would agree that if this was something I went around discussing, it wouldn't be a smart tactical move, because over the discussion of the cartoons being hateful or what have you, justifications are going to grow, and I'd rather not provide that medium at the moment.
  • Deadly attack on office of French magazine Charlie Hebdo
     Reply #299 - January 11, 2015, 11:42 PM
    Could someone tell me how would the average Muslim in the street see this incident?  The media tell us everyone is outraged etc.  But I really don't trust the media to report accurately.  Or maybe more interestingly, how would you have seen this incident when you were a believer in Islam? 
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