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Theme Changer

 Topic: Individualist v Collectivist culture

 (Read 4419 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     OP - January 11, 2015, 12:01 AM

    I'm not a fan of religion (I was a Jehovah Witness for a year) and to tell the truth I'm very concerned about the rise of Islam in the west.

    However, one thing that does impress me greatly about the Muslim community is the collectivism found within the family and community.  I feel this is a far better system than the individualism found in western societies.  I've never been able to directly experience collectivism as it's just not an option. 

    What are the view of the people here who have experience of it?  Is collectivism a better way of life than individualism?   

  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #1 - January 11, 2015, 12:30 AM

    No. It seems to contribute to intolerance and a sort of social policing. Better if everyone accepted differences and allowed people to live freely.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #2 - January 11, 2015, 12:33 AM

    I would say the middle way is the best way.

    You see the problems with collectivism here in this forum. Many people are anxious about telling their family about their apostasy. Some even fear for their lives.
    Another problem is that you're not able to take your own decisions. Your family decides whom you're going to marry and if you marry without their blessing, you will have a lot of problems.

    That's good about individualism, nobody cares (or cares less) what you do with your life. It's your life and it's your decisions. If you decide to become an Atheist that's fine.

    The bad side can be loneliness and egotism. But I wouldn't trivialize that.
  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #3 - January 11, 2015, 12:36 AM

    However, one thing that does impress me greatly about the Muslim community is the collectivism found within the family and community.  I feel this is a far better system than the individualism found in western societies.  I've never been able to directly experience collectivism as it's just not an option. 


    That's one of the reasons why western people are convert to Islam. They simply love the community and the collectivism, which they might didn't experience before.
  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #4 - January 11, 2015, 12:37 AM

    What if you could remove the religious aspects of Islamic collectivism?  Would you then favour it over individualism?  
  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #5 - January 11, 2015, 12:39 AM

    That's one of the reasons why western people are convert to Islam. They simply love the community and the collectivism, which they might didn't experience before.


    Oh interesting I didn't know that.  Are muslim converts easily accepted into the collectivist culture?  I tend to think its only really a system that works if you have a family that is also part of the system. 
  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #6 - January 11, 2015, 12:43 AM

    They meet new friends and then try to marry a Muslim women. Together you have your community. You go to the mosque together and have religious talks.

    But don't do that it's the worst decision you could made  Cheesy
  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #7 - January 11, 2015, 12:46 AM

    What if you could remove the religious aspects of Islamic collectivism?  Would you then favour it over individualism?  


    It would be much better. But I still thing that you would feel social pressure. In Japan you have collectivism and people who "lose their faces" often commit suicide.
    So no, even without religion I wouldn't favour it.

    As I said the middle way is the best. It's good to have a family who is there for you. But they should respect the decisions you have made for your live.
  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #8 - January 11, 2015, 12:47 AM

    Lol I'm not a convert looking for tips Smiley  
  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #9 - January 11, 2015, 01:02 AM

    Lol, I was just kidding  Cheesy

    One example I could give was the Friday prayers I went when I was a Muslim. At the university they were some Muslims and we went to the mosque all together.
    During the prayers you go close together so that you even touch the shoulders of the neighbours next to you. So you have a great community effect. I would say that this is one of the reasons, why people like to convert to Islam. After the mosque we went to eat something, or went to cafe which I really enjoyed. Being together in a community.

    But there is also I downside. I didn't like to go to the mosque, because I didn't like what they talk about in the mosque. "Do not this, do not that, this is Haram" "You have to do this, you have to do that" "You will go to Hell if you do this"
    I really hated it and I was always anxious about what they were saying there, because I take everything very accurate. But I couldn't say no to my friends. One semester I was happy that one of the lectures was exactly at the time where the Friday prayer was, and I didn't join them. But even then they told me I should leave the lecture earlier because "it's super important" "the most important pray of the week and you should leave all your work and run to the mosque".
  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #10 - January 11, 2015, 01:12 AM

    EIT I guess the grass is always green on the other side, that's why I see collectivist in such a good light. 
  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #11 - January 11, 2015, 01:32 AM

    FoR: you got it  Smiley
  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #12 - January 11, 2015, 05:43 AM

    As a person born in a collectivist culture, I much prefer the individualistic culture.

    Being individualistic doesn't mean you must stop valuing family or community, it just means that you treat your family/community members as equals and you cannot force your family value/community value on someone, and I don't see that as a bad thing at all. My government had spent decades selling us propaganda about how "people in the west" are all selfish and don't care about family and whatnot, that's such a big lie that I would gladly never hear again.

    But I guess it could be the effect of "grass is greener" etc etc.
  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #13 - January 11, 2015, 06:39 AM

    That's one of the reasons why western people are convert to Islam. They simply love the community and the collectivism, which they might didn't experience before.


    Yeah this is true. And a lot of them are disenfranchised with a society they feel doesn't provide enough community support as a whole, but they may also have severe emotional problems stemming from things like neglect and abuse (:cough: not saying I experienced that....oh yeah, I am....).

    Maybe they're from broken families, or their parents were absentee parents and let the TV, the school system, the kid's friends, the internet or whoever raise them, maybe their parents were workaholics or just were poor and never even got to know their kids because they were always at work, or maybe they were on drugs or alcoholics and were never sober enough to form relationships, or maybe a parent was in jail. The parents might have had a mental illness that made them unfit to be a parent. Maybe the parents or other authority figures were abusive, and they feel like not only their parents let them down, but so did the society that didn't stop the abuse. (I can tick almost all of these boxes.)

    So they are sold this idea of a great society where they're going to be taken care of and part of a global "family", and they'll be cared for and loved and given attention and all the things they've been looking for their whole lives. When you're that broken, and something looks like the thing you need to fix you up, it is hard to question if the thing you're being sold is the real McCoy. You want so desperately to be accepted and loved that you're willing to do almost anything if you think it will fix you.

    This isn't a problem exclusive to Islam, Charles Manson was able to exploit the same principle and get his girls to kill other people. It's psychopathic behavior (the people swept up in it are usually not psychopaths, including the ones that recruit others or commit crimes after accepting that this is what they've been looking for their whole lives; the leader or leaders is/are the only psychopath/s).

    The Washington D.C. Beltway Sniper John Allen Mohammad was another example of this. His minor accomplice, Malvo, was a very troubled kid, and Mohammad took advantage of that and swept in as a father figure and role model (and his idea of being a good role model apparently included exacting "revenge" on society, by way of shooting random people and planning to kidnap more kids to train). That case hit close to home for me, in a literal way, because I lived in the area affected by that reign of terror at the time.

    It was not a good thing at all, but some funny stories did come out of it that helped it seem less horrible. The guy who finally was able to trap them for the police was a lorry driver, and the officials and police and everyone held a big event at a 5 star hotel to thank him. He walked in and said it was "one swanky-ass motel," which royally pissed off those oh-so-proper pricks lol.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #14 - January 11, 2015, 10:18 AM

    Hi Gal, love your avatar (cat fan here)  Smiley

    Can I ask are you a Muslim convert?  Your account makes so much sense. 

    And yes I think humans have an innate drive to live in a community of people.  It's our natural enviroment and cities/large population are alien to most of us.  A great researcher called Dunbar deviced the Dunbar Number which is 150 people, this is the optimum size community of people.  The Amish design their whole communities around this number and will split off into a new group when 150 is reached.   So I can see the appeal you are all talking about makes a lot of sense. 

     

  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #15 - January 11, 2015, 12:13 PM

    That's one of the reasons why western people are convert to Islam. They simply love the community and the collectivism, which they might didn't experience before.


    Even as a born Muslim but growing up in the West isolated from the Egyptian community of my father, I was attracted to the collectivist culture of Islam at the age of 19 and I wrote this a few years ago now, in my blog:

    I loved the sense of belonging and identity this gave me. It was like being part of a huge family that shared a special bond.

    https://abooali.wordpress.com/chapter-2/
  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #16 - January 11, 2015, 12:15 PM

    I agree with Hass. I actually went to the masjid a few weeks ago, just out of curiosity. Loved the community aspect of the whole affair.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #17 - January 11, 2015, 04:49 PM

    Yet at the same time that very community spirit can make you feel trapped, controlled and unable to express who you are as an individual.

    Everything must be sacrificed for the whole and breaking ranks is the worst sin.
  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #18 - January 11, 2015, 05:36 PM

    I guess the English community spirit is down the pub but then a fight breaks out and the illusion is broken Smiley 
  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #19 - January 11, 2015, 06:43 PM

    Hi Gal, love your avatar (cat fan here)  Smiley

    Can I ask are you a Muslim convert?  Your account makes so much sense.  



    Yes, I am, and it was for those reasons. After my super-dysfunctional, criminally insane, abusive parents threw me out on the street when I was 18, I was a hot mess. I went from relationship to relationship looking for someone to give me the love and attention I'd wanted my whole life. Unfortunately, the kinds of people who want to be around someone that insecure are almost all people who want to prey on your vulnerability, so I kept being abused.

    Honestly, if someone like John Allen Mohammad or Charles Manson had swept into my life at that time, I probably would have ended up following them. Not because I am a bad person who wants to harm others; that's not it at all. I was a broken person who was looking for stability and love, and if I thought I could get that from someone, I'd have done almost anything for them. I had no sense of personal identity, never having been given a chance to even question who I was or what I wanted as an individual, and was very open to suggestion.

    I was socially retarded, not because there's something wrong with my brain, but because I was isolated from everyone. I did develop language abilities and to a lesser extent mathematics abilities (with some problems; I can't answer a question given to me verbally in writing and vice versa), so I do not appear feral, but in terms of self-identity and social interactions, I had the abilities of a small child.

    I was probably a bit of a language prodigy, and if I'd been allowed to grow up normally, I'd probably be doing something like being a playwright or a translator. My grandfather had the remarkable ability to learn the basics of a language enough to be conversational in a few hours (and he was almost certainly a spy; he was definitely a government official, officially he worked for the transportation department and went on hundreds of diplomatic exchange missions in that capacity; but I find it impossible to believe that he would have gone to the USSR during the Cold War and not done SOME spying). I could read books before my 4th birthday, and for the rest of my childhood tested for reading comprehension skills several grades ahead of my actual grade.

    But emotionally? Socially? I was willing to do or believe almost anything if I thought it would make someone, anyone, like me. I had no sense of self, I didn't know who I was or what I wanted or believed, and I didn't even really understand that I had the right to decide those things for myself. In the years since, I went through the stages of emotional development that you'd normally see in a small child, usually in a pretty jumbled way and not in the predictable, linear ways you'd see in a child.

    The approval and "love" (which was always conditional) of another person was more important to me than my own beliefs. I converted to Islam because I thought that it would make people like me, even if it wasn't popular people. And for a while, it worked. Then as I emotionally matured, I started to see the dark side of it, that people wanted me to be the "perfect" Muslim woman, whatever they thought that meant.

    It's only now, over 8 years since my parents put me on the curb, that I can say that I'm actually starting to have the kinds of skills needed to cope in society, being able to think, act, and advocate for myself. To not be afraid of forming my own opinions and expressing them. To not need constant approval or validation, and to be ok with being alone. To not be emotionally dependent on others. To decide what I want to eat, what I want to wear, what I believe, what I think in regards to things like sexuality and gender identity (both my own and as social issues), etc.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dpkz3W1Qzcs

    Here's a video that talks about caring what other people think, from someone who wasn't quite as broken as me, but still has some interesting thoughts.

    Edit: the edit is me trying to make the video embed properly, forgot how to do that.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #20 - January 11, 2015, 06:51 PM

    galfromusa: I can't even begin to imagine what you went through.  far away hug

    You are the Universe, Expressing itself as a Human for a little while- Eckhart Tolle
  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #21 - January 11, 2015, 06:52 PM

    Galfro - a very big  far away hug -

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #22 - January 11, 2015, 06:58 PM

    Hugs from me too gal…  and I enjoyed that video and subscribed to his channel, thanks for sharing :-)
  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #23 - January 11, 2015, 07:02 PM

    Gal sounds a total nightmare and reading that, you can easily see how vulnerable people can be easy pickings for people looking to take control of your life and lead you in the direction they want you to go.  Your story reminds me of the classic case study of Genie.  

    However, you seem very balanced and articulate now so I'm hoping you've managed to resolve the many issues you're faced.  My g/f was sexually abused by multiple people and generally had a highly dysfunctional childhood.  So I've witnessed first hand what a battle it is to undo the damage of childhood and its not easy.    

    Will have a watch of the video tomorrow, extra tired today :( 

  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #24 - January 11, 2015, 07:10 PM

    Loved the video and subscribed aswell  Smiley

    You are the Universe, Expressing itself as a Human for a little while- Eckhart Tolle
  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #25 - January 11, 2015, 08:21 PM

     far away hug Thank you guys Smiley

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #26 - January 11, 2015, 08:43 PM

    I'm not a fan of religion (I was a Jehovah Witness for a year) and to tell the truth I'm very concerned about the rise of Islam in the west.

    However, one thing that does impress me greatly about the Muslim community is the collectivism found within the family and community.  I feel this is a far better system than the individualism found in western societies.  I've never been able to directly experience collectivism as it's just not an option.  

    What are the view of the people here who have experience of it?  Is collectivism a better way of life than individualism?  




    Collectivism based on religion must be rooted in the authority of the clergy. Which by even a quick glance at history shows has never been unified. This leads to stagnation and division. This is evident by the divides of the collective into smaller sub-collectives thus becoming ideologies. Ideologies such as IS follows which looks as Muslim outside the IS collective as true outsiders. The collectivism you are seeing is expressed in other religions, ethnic groups and even at a locale community level. As the outsider looking in this is very appealing as there is a set community willing to accept you if you happen to agree with their beliefs. Unfortunately the collective is not as accepting of those that do not accept their beliefs. Support becomes inverted to the group as a priority. The group becomes exclusives rather than inclusive. Individualism allows one to challenge the status quo and it the trademark for the last few centuries. It also allows one to freely associate with whatever collective they choose. After all to be a collective a group must be in agreement with most views and ideas. This restricts freedom of action of the individual when a vie is against the status quo. Hence the horrible stories you can read here of those that challenged the collective view. As an individual I am not beholden to a collective so can express myself freely. There is no taboo, tradition or view which I can not express or criticize. The West has formed a collective of individuals based upon a compromises between views.

    Islam expresses a very exclusive form of collectivism which treats people differently based on religion divides. Individualism treats people "equally" based on direct interaction. There is not presuppositional view of how a particular group fits into a society. Granted this is no different than how many social groups treat each other and other groups. It is just an overdeveloped in-group which has social and emotion appeal for those without a group. Not that social groups have no benefits but groups that are based on religious authority tend to be restrictive and oppose radical change.
  • Individualist v Collectivist culture
     Reply #27 - January 11, 2015, 08:56 PM

    Yes, I am, and it was for those reasons. After my super-dysfunctional, criminally insane, abusive parents threw me out on the street when I was 18, I was a hot mess. I went from relationship to relationship looking for someone to give me the love and attention I'd wanted my whole life. Unfortunately, the kinds of people who want to be around someone that insecure are almost all people who want to prey on your vulnerability, so I kept being abused.

    Honestly, if someone like John Allen Mohammad or Charles Manson had swept into my life at that time, I probably would have ended up following them. Not because I am a bad person who wants to harm others; that's not it at all. I was a broken person who was looking for stability and love, and if I thought I could get that from someone, I'd have done almost anything for them. I had no sense of personal identity, never having been given a chance to even question who I was or what I wanted as an individual, and was very open to suggestion.

    I was socially retarded, not because there's something wrong with my brain, but because I was isolated from everyone. I did develop language abilities and to a lesser extent mathematics abilities (with some problems; I can't answer a question given to me verbally in writing and vice versa), so I do not appear feral, but in terms of self-identity and social interactions, I had the abilities of a small child.

    I was probably a bit of a language prodigy, and if I'd been allowed to grow up normally, I'd probably be doing something like being a playwright or a translator. My grandfather had the remarkable ability to learn the basics of a language enough to be conversational in a few hours (and he was almost certainly a spy; he was definitely a government official, officially he worked for the transportation department and went on hundreds of diplomatic exchange missions in that capacity; but I find it impossible to believe that he would have gone to the USSR during the Cold War and not done SOME spying). I could read books before my 4th birthday, and for the rest of my childhood tested for reading comprehension skills several grades ahead of my actual grade.

    But emotionally? Socially? I was willing to do or believe almost anything if I thought it would make someone, anyone, like me. I had no sense of self, I didn't know who I was or what I wanted or believed, and I didn't even really understand that I had the right to decide those things for myself. In the years since, I went through the stages of emotional development that you'd normally see in a small child, usually in a pretty jumbled way and not in the predictable, linear ways you'd see in a child.

    The approval and "love" (which was always conditional) of another person was more important to me than my own beliefs. I converted to Islam because I thought that it would make people like me, even if it wasn't popular people. And for a while, it worked. Then as I emotionally matured, I started to see the dark side of it, that people wanted me to be the "perfect" Muslim woman, whatever they thought that meant.

    It's only now, over 8 years since my parents put me on the curb, that I can say that I'm actually starting to have the kinds of skills needed to cope in society, being able to think, act, and advocate for myself. To not be afraid of forming my own opinions and expressing them. To not need constant approval or validation, and to be ok with being alone. To not be emotionally dependent on others. To decide what I want to eat, what I want to wear, what I believe, what I think in regards to things like sexuality and gender identity (both my own and as social issues), etc.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dpkz3W1Qzcs

    Here's a video that talks about caring what other people think, from someone who wasn't quite as broken as me, but still has some interesting thoughts.

    Edit: the edit is me trying to make the video embed properly, forgot how to do that.


    I think one of the pulls, besides fitting in and having an instant ¨family¨ is all the rules of Islam. I also had a chaotic childhood and a sudden ¨freedom¨ at eighteen. Knowing that there were things you could do to guarantee acceptance by the ultimate father figure was really reassuring for me. When you come from no rules, no boundaries, it is very comforting to find that you should say this, do that, before you eat. Say this, do that, before you pray. Say this, do that, and you are accepted! You are practicing properly, God now loves you! For the first time in all your life, God is on your side!

    It took years for me to become tired of the rules and figure out that God wasn't a responsive figure, but yet another absent father. A father with so many stupid rules that you are made more vulnerable, rather than less.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
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