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 Topic: Islamic problem of evangelism

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  • Islamic problem of evangelism
     OP - January 17, 2015, 05:34 AM

    I posed a similar problem on a Christian forum, but are there any good responses to the problem of evangelism from an Islamic perspective? For those unfamiliar, the problem lies in the fact that considering belief in Allah and Muhammad as a prophet is required for salvation in Islam, what happens to the people who have never heard the message and as a result don't believe? If these people are given a chance to accept Islam after death, it is simply not fair because would be receiving the message from an unearthly source unlike everyone else who were presented the message by extremely fallible humans (who have a tendency to make shit up) in the midst of all kinds of other religious claims. If the answer is they can be judged on other grounds without belief being a factor, then it makes belief in the Quran and Allah to be redundant. Unfortunately, it seems like the author(s) of the Quran did not foresee how extremely large the world is and how many people would never be reached by the message in their lifetimes.

    Is there a unique Islamic response to this problem? The Christian responses are quite underwhelming.

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Islamic problem of evangelism
     Reply #1 - January 17, 2015, 05:48 AM

    The unique Islamic response, according to modern Islamic theology, is that everyone is born a Muslim but are led astray by their parents or their own desires. Apparently, if left to their own devices and with proper self-control, children raised Lord-of-the-Flies style on an Island by themselves would pray 5 times a day and have the exact understanding of Allah as does modern Sunni theology. It's ridiculous but this is actually mainstream Sunni Muslim belief; this is why converts often refer to themselves as "reverts" since they're apparently going back to the religion of their birth.

    Jesus, what people will believe if religion tells them it's so.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Islamic problem of evangelism
     Reply #2 - January 17, 2015, 06:08 AM

    So according to their theology, not only is a general idea of God ingrained in people but the specifics of the message of the Quran? (Ie praying, fasting, and such)

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Islamic problem of evangelism
     Reply #3 - January 17, 2015, 06:54 AM

    I'm not sure how deep the concept of fitra goes. As far as the problem of evangelism - "...And We never punish until We have sent a Messenger (to give warning).” [al-Israa’ 17:15]. It is unclear what constitutes receiving "the message', but it appears to be directed at people that lived during the fatrah (the time between Jesus and Muhammad). More moderate interpretations may argue it's once you've been taught concept of tawheed (monotheism) and the 5 pillars of Islam. If they weren't taught the message, on the day of judgement Allah will tell them to jump into hell. If they jump, Allah will make it cool, but if they hesitate/refuse, they will be condemned to eternal punishment. Not sure how Muslims would reconcile this with Qadar. Did Allah will for his message to be distorted for centuries? Did he also will for whole nations to not get his message to this day? Hardly seems like a test.. Still, it's better than some Christian apologists arguing people who didn't get the message deserve eternal hell due to "denying the witness of the holy spirit".  Cheesy Cheesy
  • Islamic problem of evangelism
     Reply #4 - January 17, 2015, 07:12 AM

    Is that weird jumping into hell test part of the hadith? It is unfathomably stupid...

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Islamic problem of evangelism
     Reply #5 - January 17, 2015, 03:22 PM

    Quote
    we never punish until


    What is the punishment for?  I thought Islam was a sort of hyper extreme calvinism - isn't everyone elected?

    Has anyone looked at the psychology of belief systems?  What is the problem they are trying to solve?  Salvation from what?  Why?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Islamic problem of evangelism
     Reply #6 - January 17, 2015, 03:28 PM

    A Mullah has reported that since the attack in Canada, about 20 young men have turned up in his mosque said allah is one and uncle mo is his profit and never been seen again!  He was very concerned they were learning from internet.

    Is that enough, go to mosque say conversion ritual, join jihadist group?

    See the world, meet interesting people, kill them and yourself, get raisins.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Islamic problem of evangelism
     Reply #7 - January 17, 2015, 04:32 PM

    It illustrates something very deep and interesting:  What, exactly, is a Muslim?  I think there are basically three conflicting versions.  Best known is the version of Islamic tradition, involving the five pillars etc., albeit with the Shiite version as well (probably more archaic). 

    But that is not the Qur'anic view.  The other two definitions of the "Believer" are conflicting versions which seem implicit in the Qur'an, and which seem hyper-ecumenical and nonconfessional.  Yet they are not consistent with each other.  One (probably the older layer) is a Christian-type belief in Allah and the imminent Last Judgment with bodily resurrection -- if you believe in that, you are a believer.  Unlike those who scoff and store up wealth and don't think Allah is about to judge them with hellfire.  This is vaguely associated with Meccan type surahs.

    Second is a rigidly monotheistic gentile Arab religion, in which the believers are defined by their heeding the messenger, believing in Allah alone with no partners, and accepting the prophetic lineage going back through the Judaic patriarchs.  This is Abraham as "Muslim," the virtuous hanif despite being neither Jew nor Christian, and probably reflects the early Conquest era believers conceptualizing themselves as Arabic heirs to the Judaic prophetic tradition, Abrahamic monotheists.  This is vaguely associated with Medina type surahs.  The identity is primarily one of accepting the religious authority of a specific prophet, the Arabic messenger, and is tied with their community identity as Arabic recipients of the message that must be heeded (or else suffer punishments like the prior prophets).

    Modern Sunni theology appears to gloss over these contradictions in an implausible way -- people are 'born Muslim,' and yet turn away.  But which of the Muslim categories above do they mean 'born Muslim', and what is a 'Muslim' then?  Born in the sense Abraham was Muslim?  Born in the sense that believing in the last judgment and bodily resurrection makes you Muslim?  That causes too much existential anxiety about what, exactly, being a Muslim is, because the Qur'an is so inconsistent with orthodox Muslim tradition on this point.  So instead traditional Sunni doctrine is imported back into the 'natural Muslim' category, such that Adam was an orthodox Sunni, and so was Abraham.  Although there was no Mohammed yet to follow the Sunnah of.  Nor any prophet to follow.  Nor any Mecca.  Nor any holy books.  Just obedience to Allah.  And that leads to the dangerous conclusion that perhaps Jews and Christians are indeed Muslims ....
  • Islamic problem of evangelism
     Reply #8 - January 17, 2015, 05:24 PM

    Is there a universalist Muslim tradition?  Everyone gets to heaven, including pigs?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Islamic problem of evangelism
     Reply #9 - January 17, 2015, 05:56 PM

    Pigs go to heaven to be served to the believers because everything that is haram on earth is encouraged in heaven

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Islamic problem of evangelism
     Reply #10 - January 17, 2015, 06:00 PM

    @zaotar so the verses where it's like "whoever believes in god and the last day has nothing to fear (Jews an Christians)" is part of the earliest layers, and the verses about not accepting all the messengers will get you sent to hell is one of the later layers when the text was being islamized?

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Islamic problem of evangelism
     Reply #11 - January 17, 2015, 06:02 PM

    There does seem to be a strong element of predestination in the quran so maybe everyone who hasn't heard the message is just meant to be one of the damned. Allah guides who he will

    "I moreover believe that any religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system."
    -Thomas Paine
  • Islamic problem of evangelism
     Reply #12 - January 18, 2015, 08:20 AM

    So according to their theology, not only is a general idea of God ingrained in people but the specifics of the message of the Quran? (Ie praying, fasting, and such)


    Fitrah

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
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