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Theme Changer

 Topic: Klingschor: I've been radicalised

 (Read 21521 times)
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  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     OP - February 09, 2015, 02:32 PM

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-pRSn70wUKE
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #1 - February 09, 2015, 05:27 PM

    Well that's quite a surprise.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #2 - February 09, 2015, 05:50 PM

    Huh? CJ Werleman No. 2?

    I suggest he try to engage with this young Pashtun woman to expand his horizon in regards to what role Western imperialism plays.


    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #3 - February 09, 2015, 06:15 PM

    As an indication of the new line:

    Is it the Left that fails to oppose Islamism, or Right-wing imperialists?
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #4 - February 09, 2015, 06:18 PM

    I thought it was pretty funny ... but he's not trying to be satirical?
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #5 - February 09, 2015, 06:27 PM

    Well he sounds serious about it. Here's the reaction on Twitter:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/Klingschor/status/563526095786352641
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #6 - February 09, 2015, 06:30 PM

    I guess we all have our youthful foibles, but most of us just throw the Che Guevara t-shirt out with the bong and move on with our lives.
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #7 - February 09, 2015, 06:33 PM

    "I no longer consider religious belief systems to be significant factors in accounting for human behaviour."

    I think he has lost it.

    In 2014 a proposal was put forward in Iraq to allow (in the Shia tradition) marital rape and sex with nine year olds.

    Clearly a class issue.

    People seeking Paradise through martyrdom is a class issue.

    Vietnamese and Laotian and Cambodian people not trying to blow them up among white people? A class issue.

    Danish Never-Moose adopted by the kind people on the CEMB-forum
    Ex-Muslim chat (Unaffliated with CEMB). Safari users: Use "#ex-muslims" as the channel name. CEMB chat thread.
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #8 - February 09, 2015, 07:05 PM

    Explaining religion's causal effects on human behavior as just a transparent proxy for material economic conflicts is about as effective as explaining the modern capital markets through Marx's theory of labor value.  Go ahead, try to profit by analyzing the market via Marxist 'labor theory of value' economics, see how well it works for you.

    You end up bankrupt either way.

    It's amazing somebody could ever say something like ""I no longer consider religious belief systems to be significant factors in accounting for human behaviour."  If you have ever had religious parents, you know that nothing could be further from the truth!
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #9 - February 09, 2015, 07:17 PM

    I consider myself far-left but Marxism is just stupid. How does Marxism explain the rise and fall of the Soviet Empire? Historical materialism is psuedo-science at its finest. You can't reduce history to one of its parts! Material causes are significant in history, but so is ideology religion, and yes "great men." The Soviet Union could not have existed with Lenin, to take one fabulous example.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #10 - February 09, 2015, 07:37 PM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZSDjUkQAXgI

    I think The KingsChor got bored with all of his anti-Islamic videos, So now he  is wasting his time and others with videos like above..

    Chor it doesn't matter what you do .. BUT STOP MOVING FORWARD AND BACKWARD in front of video recording. And did it ever occur to you that you are the one who is misunderstanding on what people are thinking about your tubes?  No one is saying or said religious people are IRRATIONAL IN EVERY ASPECT of day to day life..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #11 - February 09, 2015, 07:48 PM

    Yeah, it's crude causal reductivism.  And like all crude causal reductivism, it only 'works' if you develop contrived explanations so that what seems like a complex social phenomenon is *in truth* just the reductivist factor at work.

    In this way, religious belief is explained away as either meaningless behavior akin to the color of a shirt (for example, praying towards Mecca) or if it's taken to be significant behavior, explained as the expression of an underlying economic conflict (by praying towards Mecca, the Muslims of the world are expressing their hostility towards colonial oppression by conducting a ritual which unites their class in opposition to the imperial oppressors, a nascent form of class consciousness).  You can make up any story you want here.

    The irony that religious people love the same reductivist spiel albeit with a different primal cause (God explains all, and history is His story) is generally lost on Marxists, for the most part an utterly humorless crowd.
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #12 - February 09, 2015, 08:58 PM

    Any all-encompassing frame-work thus far worked out fails to capture the world, even if you're only talking about the world human beings create for themselves. I am surprised Klingschor fell for the Marxist narrative. It certainly has its merits and uses but being an ideological Marxist is just a constraining to your world view as any organized religion.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #13 - February 10, 2015, 03:03 AM

    I think he makes a good point about the class system. However I think he stops at this point and never develops the idea further. A class system is just a large social hierarchy which is natural to humans. We just attach material wealth as a factor in this social hierarchy. However one can use almost any value system to set up such a system. Parents are above their children due to age, knowledge, etc. A supervisor is above those that they supervise as they act as middlemen between the workforce and management; knowledge and expertise. Management is above both as it dictates everything below it. In education teachers and professors are above students due to knowledge and expertise thus another peeking order. Marxism fails as there must always be someone in charge. Value assessments of intelligence, strength, capability, education, etc will always set people above others. This is why Marxism fails and always fails. It leaves a power vacuum that must be filled by people. As soon as these positions start being filled a new class system is created thus renders the whole system moot. It becomes that which it is against. It become untenable. Marxism must always be in a state of revolution in order to remove every power system which creates a hierarchy. This hampers it's progress as the end goal is impossible to reach. Communism had the foresight to see this thus stopped once one of the new class systems agreed with consolidating power they had rather than give it up or lose it to the system they support. However this just creates a new political based class system of the "one" party. You must be part of this system to advance. Oppose this system and you will fall.

    Religion is a class system in many ways unless it is pluralist, which is rare. There is a class system between believer and non-believer. God treats these two classes differently at some point. Believers will often implement such a divide in the world either on their own or via scripture. Christianity and Islam did this for centuries. Such a system often overruled the previous material wealth system already in place. A rich Hebrew was less than a rich Muslim or Christian. It pushed the material system into a sub-category below that of religious views. This also creates a scapegoat for poor of the mainstream religion of the time and/or place. Jewish bankers for example. It become a source of anger that the poor of the "true" religion are below those of "false" religions. Since religion has uses the class system we can blame it as a source cause of conflict. One must destroy every non-pluralist religion for Marxism to even get off the ground as it will always be a bastion of the class system
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #14 - February 10, 2015, 03:10 AM

    Its not an either / or thing. You can be a dyed in the wool radical and at the same time see the problems of religions for what they are. I tend to agree with him that economics and global politics play a bigger role than just religion, but at the same time religion does explain some very important features of why the world is the way it is.

    It seems to me exceedingly out of character that Kling would make such a fundamental flaw in judgement considering his spot on Islamic analysis thus far, but whatevs.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #15 - February 10, 2015, 03:59 AM

    In the video he has the facial expression of someone conflicted about their beliefs, finding themselves stating a position in opposition to what they believe is true and unable to put together why or how to resolve it. He does not have the appearance of a person who is comfortable with his position. It isn't micro-expressions either, it's his whole face the whole time.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #16 - February 10, 2015, 04:07 AM

    I tend not to do such a personal analysis of someone's statements, but I find myself agreeing with you galfromusa. Everything from his demeanor and expression to his tone and carefully chosen rehearsed diction are not authentic to his former style of just a few months ago.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #17 - February 10, 2015, 04:20 AM

    I tend not to do such a personal analysis of someone's statements, but I find myself agreeing with you galfromusa.


    It's not really what he's saying, as much as how he appears when he's saying it. If you go look in the mirror and start saying important or meaningful things that you know are untrue, unless you're a psychopath or someone who has spent a long time practicing deception, you will see your brows furrow, your eyes get steal-y and slightly sad (eyes are the best indicator of actual emotions, because they are the hardest to control consciously), your mouth get serious and your whole expression get strained as you try to convince the person you are lying to about the truth of what you're saying.

    I used to think people were dumb when they couldn't pick up that I was lying to their faces. Now I think it's not their lack of ability to pick up on stuff as much as it is my ability to lie well. I can tell any outrageous lie, and it's hard to pick up on, because I have such control of my facial expressions. To not have people realize you're telling a very big lie, you need to relax your facial muscles and say it nonchalantly, not passionately as if it is something you NEED them to believe. But most of the time, because my life has been so incredibly outrageous, I'm telling the truth when I say my life was fucked up and lying when I try to sound "normal."

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #18 - February 10, 2015, 04:35 AM

    I don't know Klingschor all that much, and can't speak for him. But here's what I have noticed in the last several years that I've been part of the Ex-Muslim movement (as an admin here, and as an active part of other Ex-Muslim groups too).

    There has been a particular brand of anarcho-capitalist/libertarian dogma that has overtaken much of the 'atheist' movement and has coloured some/many of the people active in Ex-Muslim atheist movement too. (I'm talking about a US-style libertarianism that is pro imperialism, pro war, pro guns, pro capitalism, neo liberal etc. from where it gets its notions of individualized liberties which is a concept then applied on to religion and other things like sexuality and drug use). This seems to me to be an underlying assumption of the framework in which many/most of the 'new atheists' and the supposed 'leaders' of that movement have been operating. So, we're talking all the major players (almost all white men, except for Ayaan Hirsi Ali) that have become icons (in the somewhat religious sense) for many in the atheist movement.

    This libertarian influence HAS pushed way too much of this movement to the right-wing. And I am not comfortable with it anymore. I have not been comfortable with the level of right-wing ideology that has been underpinning a lot of the atheists out there. There is little if ANY awareness or discussion about poverty, economic factors, racism, nationalism, colonialist legacies and ongoing capitalist exploitations, and other factors. The people in the 'atheist movement' who really can't see anything beyond religion as being a factor in anyone's behaviour are literally becoming as dogmatic as the most dogmatic believers (even if they're not as physically violent). Those factors ARE important and DO hold an ENORMOUS influence on how people process and apply religion in their lives. Yes transnational religious identity politics are a big factor, but they are not the only or even the biggest factor. If they were, why the hell was there no ISIS or Al-Qaeda or Taliban before 1950s? Yes Islamic empires existed. But anyone who really does not question why these extremist groups are happening NOW and getting WORSE now beyond "Oh it's just religion" is really really really deluded.

    I am also sick and tired of mostly Ex-Muslims, but also atheists in general, whining and whining and whining about how the "LEFT" doesn't listen to us. How the "LEFT" doesn't help us, doesn't do this, doesn't do that....

    1: THERE IS NO CENTRAL AUTHORITY ON THE LEFT. Who the hell are we whining about? The Guardian newspaper? Ok... BE SPECIFIC. The Guardian does NOT bloody represent the "LEFT", not outside the UK especially or even in the UK. It is only ONE paper and it does publish things critical of religion too. So I'd love it if we Ex-Muslims (and our allies) would stop acting and whining about 'THE LEFT" like some bogeyman that is united in some way and obeys some central authority. Yes there are people on "THE LEFT" who haven't given us all the attention we want for our cause. But generally, it's because either they are themselves totally self-involved and narcissistic, or, more often because:

    2: NOBODY ON 'THE LEFT' OWES US A DAMN THING. The Left, as it is, has always been more concerned about CHANGE, about EXPLOITATION, about LABOUR, RACE, GENDER, etc. If all that we ever do is talk about religion, religion, religion and NOTHING else, why the hell do we expect people who are fighting battles on those other issues to give us all their attention? WHY don't WE talk about those other issues? WHY ARE WE ONE TRICK PONIES? We have the privilege of not having to worry about money, racism, etc. (Well, many of us I guess have those privileges, but not all of us). We all are mostly situated comfortably in the West. We don't have to worry about immigrating, being homeless, being targeted for gender or race crimes (not the way that many, many others in the world in many places ARE). So we talk a lot about religion. It's our hobby. Nothing wrong with that. But we are not bloody entitled to be the centre of people's attention if we NEVER engage with any topics that are outside of our privileged lives. If we only focus on religion and never on any other matters that people on "The Left" are engaging with, then we don't really have a lot of leg to stand and whine on, I'm sorry to say.

    I think it's time for the Ex-Muslim movement to grow up. To join up with other Leftist causes and issues. To join up with progressive, secular Muslims. To stop behaving like throwing stones at this bogeyman "The Left" is somehow going to change anything. If we consider ourselves to be on the left of the political spectrum, let's remember what that means, get out of our self-pitying bubble, and start to live up to it.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #19 - February 10, 2015, 04:43 AM

    To clarify: I am talking about those of us who are 'out' in any way or who are active online. I'm not expecting those Ex-Muslims living in dire situations to put themselves in jeopardy. I'm talking about those of us (and others in the 'atheist movement') privileged enough to be able to just talk about religion all day with strangers on the 'net or with people in our lives. Those of us who can speak up should really be speaking up about more than just religion all the time, IMO.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #20 - February 10, 2015, 06:11 AM

    Oh I agree Allat. I am actually a democratic socialist.  Cheesy I think that socio-economic factors are important, and that the West (America especially) has backed a lot of extremist regimes and dictators for their own economic interests, and disposed of them when their interests were no longer served. I don't think any sane person can deny the "Banana Republic" effect. Here is an article on it in the beginning of the last century: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_Wars

    The same sorts of patterns have continued into this century, but they have become slightly less clear-cut. The backing has been more behind the scenes in a lot of cases. But it's starting to come out, and it's just about as bad as it was 100 years ago. I think that there are a ton of factors that need to be considered in determining why some people become violent. I especially think it is important to look at their psychological history, to see if they've been victims of abuse or witnesses to violence, because I think this has better prediction power than just about any other measure.

    So I don't think the guy in the video is necessarily 100% wrong when floating a purely Marxist boat, but I don't think he believes what he's saying about morality in particular, the rest of the stuff he seems more certain of. I don't necessarily 100% disagree with what he's saying, I just don't think he actually fully believes it.

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #21 - February 10, 2015, 06:29 AM

    Yes I agree he does come across a bit hesitant in some parts. I just have never seen him on camera (have watched a few of his videos but don't think I've seen one with himself in it before), so I chalked it up to maybe being a bit nervous about being on camera or something. The part about 'morality' was the most odd, I thought too. I understood it to mean that he wants to basically start over & not have people who've watched his earlier videos to assume that he holds the same moral judgments that he may have spoken of in them. Whatever it is, it sounds like he's evolving in his own personal journey and self awareness. More power to him, really. I do think the Ex-Muslim and allied movement needs a more broad perspective rather than just endlessly blaming everything on religion without situating that religious practice in any socio-economic or political contexts.

    To be fair, I think most of us on this forum are more aware of those contexts. It's the 'new atheists' that I come across a lot on Twitter (and some Ex-Muslims out there who're not active here) that are really influenced by or pushing this libertarian narrative that is devoid of context.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #22 - February 10, 2015, 06:46 AM

    Yes I agree he does come across a bit hesitant in some parts. I just have never seen him on camera (have watched a few of his videos but don't think I've seen one with himself in it before), so I chalked it to maybe being a bit nervous about being on camera or something. The part about 'morality' was the most odd, I thought too. I understood it to mean that he wants to basically start over & not have people who've watched his earlier videos to assume that he holds the same moral judgments that he may have spoken of in them. Whatever it is, it sounds he's evolving in his own personal journey and self awareness. More power to him, really. I do think the Ex-Muslim and allied movement needs a more broad perspective rather than just endlessly blaming everything on religion without situating that religious practice in any socio-economic or political contexts.


    Yes. I have been dealing with figuring out what I believe on the "big issues" of morality, and honestly it's quite scary and it's difficult to try to work things out for yourself. I can really understand why so many people find it so comforting to have someone else give them answers, whether it's God or their guru. That's why I've been a bit more withdrawn and less active the last few days, I've been dealing with how do I make up my mind for myself and how do I avoid falling into just latching on to someone else to give me my morality, whether it's a secular writer or a religious figure. I don't want to become someone's lackey, basically, and trying to figure out how to avoid that is confusing and difficult.

    But I can see now that the answer is definitely not to lock myself away and try to work it all out on my own. I need to have a more free and open exchange of ideas, to float around different ideas, and have them subjected to criticism, and crucially, I need to determine the merits of that criticism and decide whether or not to incorporate it into my beliefs. That is the part I think has been lacking in the past; when confronted on my beliefs, I tended to either ignore the criticism or completely abandon my position in favor of the new one. I need to critically evaluate the new information on its merits, and not accept or reject it based on my perception of the person presenting it's authority.

    [Is that the correct use of an apostrophe in it's? I think it is because it is the person's authority, the it is an extension of the clause including the person, and the clause is possessive. I suck at grammar. Never really understood it, I just have such an extensive vocabulary and so much reading under my belt that I can hide that.]

    Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for I have a sonic screwdriver, a tricorder, and a Type 2 phaser.
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #23 - February 10, 2015, 12:50 PM

    To clarify: I am talking about those of us who are 'out' in any way or who are active online. I'm not expecting those Ex-Muslims living in dire situations to put themselves in jeopardy. I'm talking about those of us (and others in the 'atheist movement') privileged enough to be able to just talk about religion all day with strangers on the 'net or with people in our lives. Those of us who can speak up should really be speaking up about more than just religion all the time, IMO.


    I don't know, to me it makes sense that those people who have been victims of religion most recently, would speak out against that. That's why I'm not sure how reasonable the argument from 2 on down in your previous post is. Just like atheists in general, Ex-Muslims have a diversity of personal and political beliefs, so I don't see why you'd expect to just see a groundswell of liberal left activism from the movement as a whole, as opposed to what you do see, which is mostly related to the very real concerns of both out and closeted apostates in a range of settings. I do get that victim hood doesn't absolve someone from responsibility, but I'm not necessarily buying the assumption that that's all we talk about, or that leftism should just be a "natural" course for our activism.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #24 - February 10, 2015, 04:21 PM

    Quote

    well to be fair., I don't think Klingschor is radicalized.,  what i see in that tube is., he seem to grapple with the problem on the origins of religions and he seem to throw blame on social, political economical inequalities in the society of that time  to start a religion..

    but let quote bit of  Prophet  asbie  here

    ....Just like atheists in general, Ex-Muslims have a diversity of personal and political beliefs.... asbie

    ......Victim hood doesn't absolve someone from responsibility,.......... asbie

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #25 - February 10, 2015, 05:55 PM

    I am also sick and tired of mostly Ex-Muslims, but also atheists in general, whining and whining and whining about how the "LEFT" doesn't listen to us. How the "LEFT" doesn't help us, doesn't do this, doesn't do that....

    1: THERE IS NO CENTRAL AUTHORITY ON THE LEFT. Who the hell are we whining about? The Guardian newspaper? Ok... BE SPECIFIC. The Guardian does NOT bloody represent the "LEFT", not outside the UK especially or even in the UK. It is only ONE paper and it does publish things critical of religion too. So I'd love it if we Ex-Muslims (and our allies) would stop acting and whining about 'THE LEFT" like some bogeyman that is united in some way and obeys some central authority. Yes there are people on "THE LEFT" who haven't given us all the attention we want for our cause. But generally, it's because either they are themselves totally self-involved and narcissistic, or, more often because:

    2: NOBODY ON 'THE LEFT' OWES US A DAMN THING. The Left, as it is, has always been more concerned about CHANGE, about EXPLOITATION, about LABOUR, RACE, GENDER, etc. If all that we ever do is talk about religion, religion, religion and NOTHING else, why the hell do we expect people who are fighting battles on those other issues to give us all their attention? WHY don't WE talk about those other issues? WHY ARE WE ONE TRICK PONIES? We have the privilege of not having to worry about money, racism, etc. (Well, many of us I guess have those privileges, but not all of us). We all are mostly situated comfortably in the West. We don't have to worry about immigrating, being homeless, being targeted for gender or race crimes (not the way that many, many others in the world in many places ARE). So we talk a lot about religion. It's our hobby. Nothing wrong with that. But we are not bloody entitled to be the centre of people's attention if we NEVER engage with any topics that are outside of our privileged lives. If we only focus on religion and never on any other matters that people on "The Left" are engaging with, then we don't really have a lot of leg to stand and whine on, I'm sorry to say.

    I think it's time for the Ex-Muslim movement to grow up. To join up with other Leftist causes and issues. To join up with progressive, secular Muslims. To stop behaving like throwing stones at this bogeyman "The Left" is somehow going to change anything. If we consider ourselves to be on the left of the political spectrum, let's remember what that means, get out of our self-pitying bubble, and start to live up to it.


    Disclosure: I came here from the left, originally to post about what was happening in Tunisia at the start of January 2011 as it seemed relevant to the interests of the forum. Trying to understand more about Islam and it's history came later.

    I still find it surprising that more people from the left don't turn up on here. I don't think it's all the fault of the forum. I do try and argue for support for ex-muslims now and again and the responses can be quite odd, even from people I'd usually have time for. The left isn't monolithic and it doesn't make too much sense to generalise but I think there is sometimes a failure of the imagination from people who take it for granted that they live in a secularised world.

    I'm sympathetic to what allat says above but I'm also genuinely unsure about how far the forum should widen its agenda beyond religion and how far it should identify as part of the left - and as I'm not an ex-muslim maybe it isn't really for me to say. I do think it's a problem if left-wing ex-muslims get disillusioned with the forum because of the politics or lack of it, as I think has happened in some cases.


  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #26 - February 10, 2015, 06:46 PM

    It makes sense that somebody might turn to a secularized theology like Marxism after losing faith in a traditional reactionary theology.  Often the collapse of a 'traditional' communal identity leaves people looking for a replacement communal identity, and that replacement often is one of the Enlightenment era political ideologies that emerged out of theological ancestors.  Humanism, positivism, Marxism, etc.  The alternative tends to be more individualist forms of identity.

    Auguste Comte's "Religion of Humanity" really shows the genealogical phenomenon in its clearest form.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auguste_Comte

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_of_Humanity

    This was picked up and developed by Marxists as Left Hegelianism, with a secular theology justified by scientific pretensions.  But the Right Hegelians, exemplified by Max Stirner, show the alternative individualist side.

    At some level, all human identity is built from haphazard foundations of evolutionary design, individual circumstances, and contingent history.  This is why 'total' theories of human politics tend towards the absurdity ... they don't grapple with the complexity of actual human beings, instead trying to overwrite them with reductive abstractions about abstract Humanity.  But humans are no ants.
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #27 - February 10, 2015, 07:45 PM

    Yes. I have been dealing with figuring out what I believe on the "big issues" of morality, and honestly it's quite scary and it's difficult to try to work things out for yourself. I can really understand why so many people find it so comforting to have someone else give them answers, whether it's God or their guru. That's why I've been a bit more withdrawn and less active the last few days, I've been dealing with how do I make up my mind for myself and how do I avoid falling into just latching on to someone else to give me my morality, whether it's a secular writer or a religious figure. I don't want to become someone's lackey, basically, and trying to figure out how to avoid that is confusing and difficult. 


    I think everyone goes through periods of that kind of soul-searching. For me, my view of morality is grounded in empathy, in the golden rule or reciprocity: I try as much as possible to put myself in others' shoes. It's not always accurate because I don't have full access to anyone else's experiences or thoughts, but at least if I have this as my foundation, I am flexible about it. When new information comes to me about how my view might be inaccurate or harmful to others, I try to re-evaluate my position and modify it to encompass a larger and more diverse perspective. It's an ongoing thing. Most important, IMO, is to keep learning & stay humble and not start thinking we know everything about everything and have nothing new to learn.

    But I can see now that the answer is definitely not to lock myself away and try to work it all out on my own. I need to have a more free and open exchange of ideas, to float around different ideas, and have them subjected to criticism, and crucially, I need to determine the merits of that criticism and decide whether or not to incorporate it into my beliefs. That is the part I think has been lacking in the past; when confronted on my beliefs, I tended to either ignore the criticism or completely abandon my position in favor of the new one. I need to critically evaluate the new information on its merits, and not accept or reject it based on my perception of the person presenting it's authority.


    It is important to face criticism even when it hurts. It's supposed to hurt a little, otherwise it's not really 'criticism'. Even in the most hurtful criticism, often there's something we need to learn, some kind of blind spot being pointed out to us. Many people criticize not to improve others but to make themselves feel superior to others. It takes a certain amount of thick skin + experience + a detachment from your own ego, to really be able to learn from criticism. As much as possible, when criticizing others, it's a good idea to argue about ideas or actions instead of attacking the person. Unless of course a person is really there just to hurt others & has no empathy themselves.

    Ideas are fine-tuned when confronted with criticism. I have learned so much about myself and my thoughts have been clarified to me via those who've criticized them. Sometimes, it IS important to let go of old thoughts and beliefs. There's no shame in learning, growing as a person. Other times, the ideas need tweaking but are basically sound.

    [Is that the correct use of an apostrophe in it's? I think it is because it is the person's authority, the it is an extension of the clause including the person, and the clause is possessive. I suck at grammar. Never really understood it, I just have such an extensive vocabulary and so much reading under my belt that I can hide that.]


    Yep you used it correctly in most places Smiley
    It's = "It is" (It's cold outside)
    Its = possessive (Read its ingredients)

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #28 - February 10, 2015, 07:55 PM

    I don't know, to me it makes sense that those people who have been victims of religion most recently, would speak out against that. That's why I'm not sure how reasonable the argument from 2 on down in your previous post is. Just like atheists in general, Ex-Muslims have a diversity of personal and political beliefs, so I don't see why you'd expect to just see a groundswell of liberal left activism from the movement as a whole, as opposed to what you do see, which is mostly related to the very real concerns of both out and closeted apostates in a range of settings. I do get that victim hood doesn't absolve someone from responsibility, but I'm not necessarily buying the assumption that that's all we talk about, or that leftism should just be a "natural" course for our activism.


    I agree there is a diversity of political views among Ex-Muslims and atheists in general. There definitely does not need to be a homogenous view among either group. What I'm saying is that those of us who ARE on the left of the political spectrum on other issues like poverty, exploitation, racism, should do more than just throw stones at the bogeyman of "The Left". We should realize we are also part of "The Left" and the fact that so many of us ARE talking about Ex-Muslim issues shows that the left is not silent about it. The relativist types of lefties who ignore the issues Ex-Muslims face do not own the left. It's huge, diverse and we are as much as part of it as them and should step up to the plate and join common causes along with talking about our own issues, lest we be just as narcissistic and self-absorbed as the worst types on the far left or the far right.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Klingschor: I've been radicalised
     Reply #29 - February 10, 2015, 08:04 PM

    I still find it surprising that more people from the left don't turn up on here. I don't think it's all the fault of the forum. I do try and argue for support for ex-muslims now and again and the responses can be quite odd, even from people I'd usually have time for. The left isn't monolithic and it doesn't make too much sense to generalise but I think there is sometimes a failure of the imagination from people who take it for granted that they live in a secularised world.


    This is exactly true. There are many in the left in the West who are completely unaware of their own privileges, even as they like to call out others for theirs. Assuming the whole world is secular and everyone is operating from a freethinking basis is part of their blind spot. Assuming that Islamic gender roles are ok, while the gender roles they fight against are not ok, assuming that they have the right to criticize Christianity while nobody (including Ex-Muslims) should criticize Islam or Islamism.

    This blind spot should be pointed out, but I find it is MUCH more effective to do it as part of a larger conversation on privilege and its correlation with religion and race and gender issues. It is not effective to sit on the outside of what we think is "The Left" and hurl empty insults at "them". I suspect many of the people in the "atheist movement" who love to whine about "The Left" are not themselves that concerned about things like poverty, exploitation, war mongering etc. They only find this a useful excuse to bash "The Left" with. Those on the left who are relativistic and privilege-blind don't help, but they are not the only people in the left.

    Our issues and existence are still new for many people. We need dialogue with reasonable and empathic people on the left. We can build bridges or walls - I choose bridges.

    I'm sympathetic to what allat says above but I'm also genuinely unsure about how far the forum should widen its agenda beyond religion and how far it should identify as part of the left - and as I'm not an ex-muslim maybe it isn't really for me to say. I do think it's a problem if left-wing ex-muslims get disillusioned with the forum because of the politics or lack of it, as I think has happened in some cases.


    This forum is obviously here for Ex-Muslims and will always be so. We have such a diversity here and always have - of the people here and of the topics discussed. In my posts above, I was mostly talking about how we engage with 'the left' out there on other platforms.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
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