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Theme Changer

 Topic: Educated Muslim Apologist.

 (Read 22725 times)
  • 12 3 ... 7 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     OP - February 17, 2015, 11:52 PM
    So I discovered this new muslim apologist though a post on EXMNA. 

    He has university degrees in philosophy unlike your typical run of the mill idiots like Tzortzis and company who just copy and paste their speeches from William Lane Craig. 

    After watching some of his content I can say that while I still find him unconvincing he is definitely a lot better than any other muslim apologist I've come across.

    When I'm less busy I'm planning to look through these videos and try to pick apart his arguments in detail because he really seems to know his philosophy.

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqYAQa28E9Fbsak6zM4hA3w

    These are links to his "Understanding" Atheism Series.

    Session One
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyAVl7RsEOs

    Session Two
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mWzJQiAbNk

    Session Three
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZkv38vd7bw

    Session Four
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVehdVlLdBI

    Session Five
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRDaCqipcwM
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #1 - February 18, 2015, 12:03 AM
    I'm pretty sure this guy is dawahfilms. He isn't new. he has just reinvented himself.

    to answer your question; i recall him being absolutely useless. Same arguments as everybody else. The only difference is that he reads two paragraphs of wikipedia per topic, rather than just two sentences. He does also avoid some of the most obvious common errors. That is as generous as I can be.

    klingschor used to spar with him

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DYEYVzFLmw

    He was understood to be bit of a dick too. Enough of a dick to call for a change of image.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=agsAXuCLGzM
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #2 - February 18, 2015, 12:06 AM
    God those atheist guys look so sinister in that shading. What do you make of that Reza Aslan guy or whatever his name is as an apologist, do you think he's any good?
     For those more savy in dealing with apologists, he comes across as transparent but he's been known to take those not so much, for a cheap ride.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #3 - February 18, 2015, 12:51 AM
    Kevin > Dawahfilms > Ali  > Asadullah Ali Al Andalusi

    is this even his final form?

    >Asadullah Ali Al Andalusi (PBUH) Ba.

    He mentions an indonesian facebook forum where he tests his arguments on atheists. Just joined it.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #4 - February 18, 2015, 12:55 AM
    I thought Reza Aslan was pretty decent when I first came across him. But he said a number of things which were just ridiculous. I noticed him making things up, more than a couple of times, and I just can't  take him seriously anymore.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #5 - February 18, 2015, 12:58 AM
    Quote from: Doubting Tomas on February 18, 2015, 12:06 AM
    God those atheist guys look so sinister in that shading. What do you make of that Reza Aslan guy or whatever his name is as an apologist, do you think he's any good?
     For those more savy in dealing with apologists, he comes across as transparent but he's been known to take those not so much, for a cheap ride.


    Reza Aslan has the undertones of an agnostic in some statements. He said one time "Islam does not promote or go against peace, it is whatever you make it to be" (paraphrased) Would make you ask if that's the case, why have it at all...? Anyway him as an apologist, he tends to respond fairly and intelligently but speaks as a historian in the context of fair representation more than anything.
    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #6 - February 18, 2015, 01:37 AM
    Quote from: dr_sloth on February 18, 2015, 12:55 AM
    I thought Reza Aslan was pretty decent when I first came across him. But he said a number of things which were just ridiculous. I noticed him making things up, more than a couple of times, and I just can't  take him seriously anymore.


    Aslan sounds pretty reasonable at first, but then he says things (like his claims about Mohammed outlawing slavery) which make you realize he has no compunction about distorting or misrepresenting the facts, as long as it comports with his vision of 'the deeper truth.'

    That's how religious texts (and hadith) are formed.  Nobody has much compunction about lying and forging when it just restates and supports what the believer holds to be the Sacred Truth.  Ironic that the Sacred Truth is thus built on lots of Sacred White Lies.

    I guess the upside potential is that perhaps, as Aslan claims, a new Islamic Reformation is being conducted in precisely this way, with a bunch of lies and half truths contriving a new religion from the detritus of yesteryear.  In this new religion, why shouldn't Mohammed ban slavery, and also declare the universal equality of women?  Why not, if we're just making this stuff up?  Let us emulate the glory days of the Abassid caliphate, 9th century, and just start formulating/reinterpreting new hadith to express these timeless historical truths.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #7 - February 18, 2015, 01:42 AM
    Quote
    he says things (like his claims about Mohammed outlawing slavery)


    He got into a spat with Tom Holland on twitter about whether or not Holland was justified in believing that Aslan said it. It was such an absurd corner for Aslan to have painted himself into.

  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #8 - February 18, 2015, 01:54 AM
    more on Kevin

    http://captaindisguise.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/how-to-shamelessly-defend-murdering.html
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #9 - February 18, 2015, 03:01 AM
    Fuck.. how did I not recognize that this guy was dawahfilms ?!

     banghead
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #10 - February 18, 2015, 09:09 AM
    His new format is to talk to people completely clueless about science, atheism, politics and religion outside their own. Nothing new, nothing insightfll. I see nothing new. It has the trademarks of standard omission based arguments. America is bad because of science, thus science is bad cause America is bad (begging the question), but never mentions it's history with religion. Mention micro-evolution, Anthony Flew, Dawkins, etc, proceed to play pigeon chess.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #11 - February 18, 2015, 09:14 AM
    I had a feeling it would be him before I even watched the video. His degrees are actually fairly impressive in my books (one class in philosophy was the main reason I gave up my faith). He has just rebranded after being humiliated on his old account, however I'm quite interested in listening to his new stuff. He seems very angry and really has it in for atheists, here's a really old video of him ranting as a Christian (he's a convert) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7Rfxh4VrXQ
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #12 - February 18, 2015, 10:03 AM
    "Ust. Asadullah Ali al-Andalusi is an American convert to Islam whose heritage is from Spain (Al-Andalus). His undergraduate research was on Western philosophy, particularly in the fields of epistemology and comparative religion. After having migrated to Malaysia to pursue his degree in Islamic philosophy at the International Institute of Islamic Thought and Civilization, he continued his studies in the same fields, incorporating aesthetics and the philosophy of science into his knowledge base. His masters thesis was on the subject of contemporary atheist thought and influence in the Muslim world, where he deconstructed their foundational claims on the basis of history, scientific thought, and Islamic mysticism (tasawwuf). He is now pursuing his PhD at the University of Malaya in Shariah and Law and hopes to write his dissertation on the current movement known as ISIS in hopes to elucidate and criticize their views based on traditional Islamic thought."

    i don't know what i am supposed to make of an islamic university, or of a masters in debunking atheists.

  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #13 - February 18, 2015, 04:52 PM
    Islamic Philosophy is just the labeling of theology same as "Christian" Philosophy is.

    With that Christian video of his just dub all references to Christianity with Islam. Same arguments just change the labels.  Cheesy

    On the third video now he on to miracles of the Quran like mountains are pegs, etc.. I already debunked this a few months ago. Just to drive the point home http://www.tectonics.caltech.edu/outreach/highlights/earthquakes_and_mountains_International_Innovation.pdf Amusing, how can they gather date from mountains if said mountains stop movement which would prevent recording of data the project requires. Also http://www.livescience.com/18548-diving-mountains-stop-start-earthquakes-subduction-seamounts.html which is speculation that a mountain caused an earthquake.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #14 - February 18, 2015, 05:46 PM
    Quote from: TheDarkRebel on February 17, 2015, 11:52 PM
    So I discovered this new muslim apologist though a post on EXMNA. 

    He has university degrees in philosophy unlike your typical run of the mill idiots like Tzortzis and company who just copy and paste their speeches from William Lane Craig. 

    After watching some of his content I can say that while I still find him unconvincing he is definitely a lot better than any other muslim apologist I've come across.

    When I'm less busy I'm planning to look through these videos and try to pick apart his arguments in detail because he really seems to know his philosophy.

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCqYAQa28E9Fbsak6zM4hA3w

    These are links to his "Understanding" Atheism Series.

    Session One
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyAVl7RsEOs

    Session Two
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mWzJQiAbNk

    Session Three
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZkv38vd7bw

    Session Four
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVehdVlLdBI

    Session Five
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRDaCqipcwM


    Is this US version of our Tortoise?
    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #15 - February 18, 2015, 08:08 PM
    Quote from: PhysMath on February 18, 2015, 12:58 AM
    Reza Aslan has the undertones of an agnostic in some statements. He said one time "Islam does not promote or go against peace, it is whatever you make it to be" (paraphrased) Would make you ask if that's the case, why have it at all...? Anyway him as an apologist, he tends to respond fairly and intelligently but speaks as a historian in the context of fair representation more than anything.


    The problem is that Reza Aslan is not focusing his efforts at the Islamic reformation project he claims is underway; he is aiming his efforts at non-Muslims.  For example, the Christian reformist John Shelby Spong is not mired in debates with atheists and agnostics over the public perception of Christianity being unfair or in claiming that a better, historical understanding of Christianity, complete with a fallible scripture, is the True Christianity that atheists must change their arguments to address.  He is directing his energy at Christians, to convince them that Christianity must "change or die."  Thankfully, it appears to be dying faster than it is changing.

    If Aslan were doing that, it wouldn't be as painful to read him.  But he's not; he's primarily engaging non-Muslims to claim that Islam is something that it is demonstrably not.  Then he must retreat, add caveats and generally BS his way out of the traps that he lays for himself.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #16 - February 19, 2015, 01:16 AM
    I did leaf through Aslan's "Zealot". From what I gathered it was pretty much a rewrite of Ehrman's "Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium": Jesus was born somewhat out of wedlock, got baptised, convinced others that he was a miracle-worker, upset some carts at the Temple and got hanged.

    The "getting hanged" part means Aslan isn't wholly on board with sura 4. Which is ... odd, for a Muslim.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #17 - February 19, 2015, 01:46 AM
    Quote from: gsaseeker on February 18, 2015, 08:08 PM
    The problem is that Reza Aslan is not focusing his efforts at the Islamic reformation project he claims is underway; he is aiming his efforts at non-Muslims.  For example, the Christian reformist John Shelby Spong is not mired in debates with atheists and agnostics over the public perception of Christianity being unfair or in claiming that a better, historical understanding of Christianity, complete with a fallible scripture, is the True Christianity that atheists must change their arguments to address.  He is directing his energy at Christians, to convince them that Christianity must "change or die."  Thankfully, it appears to be dying faster than it is changing.

    If Aslan were doing that, it wouldn't be as painful to read him.  But he's not; he's primarily engaging non-Muslims to claim that Islam is something that it is demonstrably not.  Then he must retreat, add caveats and generally BS his way out of the traps that he lays for himself.


    I don't know enough about him, I've heard him a few times and formed my judgement upon that. So I'll have to take your word on it in this case! Smiley
    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #18 - February 19, 2015, 08:53 AM
    Quote from: Zimriel on February 19, 2015, 01:16 AM
    I did leaf through Aslan's "Zealot". From what I gathered it was pretty much a rewrite of Ehrman's "Apocalyptic Prophet of the New Millennium": Jesus was born somewhat out of wedlock, got baptised, convinced others that he was a miracle-worker, upset some carts at the Temple and got hanged.

    The "getting hanged" part means Aslan isn't wholly on board with sura 4. Which is ... odd, for a Muslim.


    I think that Robert M. Price said much the same about his "inspiration."  He actually accused him of taking credit without attribution, if I recall correctly.

    Is Aslan remotely orthodox? He's pro-gay, pro-secularism, converted to Christianity, then back to Islam, and doesn't believe the Quran is infallible. 
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #19 - February 19, 2015, 08:54 AM
    Quote from: PhysMath on February 19, 2015, 01:46 AM
    I don't know enough about him, I've heard him a few times and formed my judgement upon that. So I'll have to take your word on it in this case! Smiley


    If I had to compare him to anyone, I'd guess it would be Andrew Sullivan, in terms of interesting content and depth.  So I admit that I've listened to him a few times and I read his articles when they interest me, but I'm not really keen to tackle his books.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #20 - February 19, 2015, 08:55 AM
    He's like a cross between the most liberal churches and Islam. He is a Proanglislim! Protestant, Anglican, Muslim!
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #21 - February 19, 2015, 01:39 PM
    .
    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #22 - February 19, 2015, 02:15 PM
    Quote from: Lilyesque on February 19, 2015, 08:55 AM
    He's like a cross between the most liberal churches and Islam. He is a Proanglislim! Protestant, Anglican, Muslim!


    Cheesy That sounds like me, though I just choose to be honest with myself and just say I'm ex Muslim xD
    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #23 - February 19, 2015, 02:46 PM
    Quote from: dr_sloth on February 18, 2015, 01:54 AM
    more on Kevin

    http://captaindisguise.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/how-to-shamelessly-defend-murdering.html


    This is a guy who justifies killing ex-Muslims by saying that it is just a matter of a penalty for a breach of contract.

    Educated, maybe.
    Mentally unstable, definitely.
    http://www.youtube.com/captaindisguise
    http://captaindisguise.blogspot.com/
    http://dawahganda.blogspot.com/
    https://twitter.com/CaptainDG64

    "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies" ~ Nietzsche
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #24 - February 19, 2015, 02:50 PM
    ^ That was actually quite difficult for me to read. I do suffer a lot from second-hand embarrassment.
    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #25 - February 19, 2015, 02:53 PM
    Education means zilch for bigots. Having an open mind is essential in being considered educated, else you're just a big blob of knowledge moulded in a fixed way...
    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #26 - February 19, 2015, 03:00 PM
    I just read it. I'm sorry, I don't recall babies and kids signing a contract? Babies having body parts mutilated since they were born into a contracted doctrine? These pseudo philosophers (like this guy and Hamza Tzortzis) frustrate me so much. If there is a threat of death over your head for leaving something it is 100% evil and cannot be from God full stop. It is the biggest single proof that a bunch of sick psychopaths came up with the hadith. Thankfully this isn't from the Quran - it promotes people believing in invisible things instead!
    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #27 - February 19, 2015, 03:02 PM
    Agreed PhysMath!
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #28 - February 19, 2015, 03:07 PM
    Kevin is very educated. He is keen (in video 2) to point out that he is no ignorant evolution denier. He accepts evolution, because he believes skin colour can darken in the sun. He doesn't accept common ancestry. But he does accept "the basic foundation of modern biology"; suntans.
    Islam and science go hand in hand.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #29 - February 19, 2015, 03:43 PM
    Islam is nothing more than a set of philosophical and sociopolitical musings by a people which may well have been appropriate at a time. As humans we take knowledge and wisdom from many sources - and much of what is presented in the Qur'an is nothing more than what was there before - and today a significant majority of knowledge depends on empirical measure and understanding. To say "there are things we don't know thus we shall fill it with these outlandish statements" is a self defeating way to go about the problem. This then means that even if the Quran were the literal word of God, as is proposed, then it would still not be sufficient and we could take knowledge from other places, other knowledge of which if appropriate could overrule the teaching in the scripture itself.
    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
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