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Theme Changer

 Topic: Educated Muslim Apologist.

 (Read 22647 times)
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  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #30 - February 19, 2015, 04:26 PM

    I watched/skipped through the the first 3 videos. He has developed a new argument for the existence of God.

    • 1. If meaning (and explanation) can only be derived from the natural world, then all conceptions of reality are derived from the natural world.
    • 2. If all conceptions or reality are derived from the natural world, then they must be a coherence of meaningful experiences
    • 3. People believe that there is a meaningful transcendent reality (i.e. God) that shares no properties with the natural world.
    • 4. If  P 1-2, then P3 is a conception of reality derived from the natural world, which content is a coherence of meaningful experiences.
    • 5. No number of meaning experiences can direct one to consider the probability of something meaningful beyond said experiences.
    • C. Therefore, P3 is not a conception of reality derived from the natural world.

    It seems to have been inspired by the transcendental argument for God and the EAAN by Plantinga. Any thoughts (Qtian might have something to say...).
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #31 - February 19, 2015, 04:30 PM

    The way he explained it in the video (as far as I understand) is as follows;

    IF naturalism is true, then all meaningful concepts (that are formed in our head) are either some natural experience or a composite of natural experiences. For example, we can think of a unicorn because it is a horse with a horn etc. On the other hand, non-meaningful concepts are incoherent composites (eg: a married bachelor or a square circle)

    However, some people believe in God which is beyond all the composites of natural experiences. God is not a composite of natural experiences nor a non-meaningful concept. Therefore, naturalism is false.

    I guess I could take issues with premises 3 and 5.

    Regarding premise 3, since the argument is specifically about meaningful conceptions as perceived by humans; I could reject premise 3 and argue that, as far as we perceive it, God is also a composite of natural experiences.

    To give an analogy. "A very fast person" is a meaningful concept in my head. So is the concept of an even "faster person" and then the "fastest person". Most of us might have a natural experience of what it means to be a fast or the fastest person. However, we can imagine a person being faster than the fastest person in real life (such as the superhero Flash). I can think about the same person  moving faster than the speed of light. No one has any natural experience of anything moving at the speed of light, let alone faster than the speed of light. Yet I am able to form a meaningful non-contradictory concept of a person moving faster than light. I could take the next step and also form the concept of an "infinitely fast person", which again, no one has any natural experience of.

    However, you can notice that the concept of an "infinitely fast person" is just an extrapolation from the concept of "a very fast person". So rather than the concept of an "infinitely fast being" being beyond our natural experiences, it is, at best, an "amplification" of our natural experiences.

    Likewise, I could argue that the Judeo-Christian-Islamic conception is only an amplification of our natural experiences of what it means to be merciful, benevolent, powerful, a creator etc. Thus I can reject Premise 3.

    Regarding Premise 5, this objection is related to my previous point but from a different angle. However, I do want to put out the disclaimer that I don't think I understood what he meant by premise 5 and am curious to the way it is worded.

    Nevertheless, I could argue that a conception of something that is said to be "beyond" natural experience is also a natural experience. This is a bit tricky to get across.

    With all the natural experiences we have, we are able to think of the concepts of "nothing" and "infinity". I am able to consider the possibility of everything not existing. I am also able to consider something being infinite (infinitely large or fast as in the previous example). While these maybe described as "beyond" the natural world; this is, essentially just a construct in our language and in fact they are concepts derived from the natural world.

    So really, I am just saying this whole argument is the byproduct of misunderstanding language. Early Wittgenstein would not be pleased.

    Anyways, those are my thoughts. I am sure the philosophy buffs here will have better objections
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #32 - February 19, 2015, 05:44 PM

    Quote
    Likewise, I could argue that the Judeo-Christian-Islamic conception is only an amplification of our natural experiences of what it means to be merciful, benevolent, powerful, a creator etc. Thus I can reject Premise 3.


    This is all that is required followed by a few verses from whatever scripture one wishes to use as evidence. It is a parent to child relationship which is found in most human family units and among animal species. A major issue is scripture often anthropomorphizes God in this way. Thus to even understand the concept of God one must reduce God to concepts we find in nature and the human experience.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #33 - February 19, 2015, 06:15 PM

    I watched/skipped through the the first 3 videos. He has developed a new argument for the existence of God.

    • 1. If meaning (and explanation) can only be derived from the natural world, then all conceptions of reality are derived from the natural world.
    • 2. If all conceptions or reality are derived from the natural world, then they must be a coherence of meaningful experiences
    • 3. People believe that there is a meaningful transcendent reality (i.e. God) that shares no properties with the natural world.
    • 4. If  P 1-2, then P3 is a conception of reality derived from the natural world, which content is a coherence of meaningful experiences.
    • 5. No number of meaning experiences can direct one to consider the probability of something meaningful beyond said experiences.
    • C. Therefore, P3 is not a conception of reality derived from the natural world.

    It seems to have been inspired by the transcendental argument for God and the EAAN by Plantinga. Any thoughts (Qtian might have something to say...).


    The argument appears circular by construction (although appears to be an attempt at proof by contradiction) - 3. is defined to be a contradiction of 1. by construction, which is not necessitated which then leads to the conclusion. I am not a fan of these "logic" proofs for (or against) the existence of God. They are usually desperate attempts to prove something that is by definition above any constructed logic, measure, reason, etc. Any one of these being rejected renders such a creator finite in some measure and thus rejects all Abrahamic constructions of God. A more fundamental question can be asked with premise 1 - what constitutes something to have "meaning" or "explanation"? These are loose terms being thrown in at the very beginning which lowers the rigour of the proof.

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #34 - February 19, 2015, 06:58 PM

    It seems to have been inspired by the transcendental argument for God and the EAAN by Plantinga. Any thoughts (Qtian might have something to say...).


    Will properly look through it later, really tired atm.

    I've sent the argument to a few guys, I'll let you know when/if they respond.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #35 - February 19, 2015, 07:02 PM

    I am not a fan of these "logic" proofs for (or against) the existence of God.


    Me too, I prefer inductive arguments instead.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #36 - February 19, 2015, 07:45 PM

    Has the author of the argument provided any extra support for his argument, or are the five premises & conclusion all we get?

    Quote
    What's the argument for P5? I may never have heard of the number 5, but I can imagine a number 2+3. I may never have seen China, but I can imagine it (which still doesn't mean my rough conception has anything to do with "China", or that it is transcendent). It sounds like you have used 'transcendent' to mean 'God', and therefore proved only what you already accepted as real.

    I think it comes down to the word 'believe' in P3; does it mean 'make reference to', 'believe due to experience', or 'conceive transcendent ideal'? So it seems circular.


    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #37 - February 19, 2015, 08:00 PM

    .

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #38 - February 19, 2015, 08:01 PM

    i loved the way he announced his new argument. Three years in the making. Such a proud little Kevin.

     
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #39 - February 19, 2015, 08:12 PM

    I've just had a thought.

    If one argues that logic itself is a composite of natural experience, doesn't Kev's argument take a hit?

    1. Logic is a composite of natural experience
    2. God is a logical conception
    C. God is a composite of natural experience

    Unless Kevin wants to take issue with P2 and argue that God isn't a logical conception Smiley


    Yeah it would contradict the original proof but that's necessarily the case since it overcomes premise 3. It comes into what I said earlier - we can redefine a structure and a sentence with appropriate variables which completely rewrites P3. It's a loose proof overall based around the assumptions being made, and terms being thrown in that are loosely defined...

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #40 - February 19, 2015, 08:14 PM

    Meh, just realised that my syllogism is unsound.

    P1 can easily be argued against. (Classical, intuitionist) logic as axiom systems are not natural. And yes, I am also having issue with his loose use of terms.

    I really like it when people define their terms beforehand.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #41 - February 19, 2015, 08:18 PM

    Ah no, it could still be since the problem of definition can be relayed into what you said in P1 - and argued that logic as an axiom system is natural. This is sort of the point I was making, that there are assignments of understandings to variables which are loose.

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #42 - February 19, 2015, 08:19 PM

    Terms should be defined if you are formalising a proof. Let's put it this way, if we were to attempt to rewrite the proof symbolically, I'd not really know where to start here. There would be a lot of undefined variables.

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #43 - February 19, 2015, 08:22 PM

    The first half of P1 (the first if) is shaky too.

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #44 - February 19, 2015, 08:28 PM

    Terms should be defined if you are formalising a proof. Let's put it this way, if we were to attempt to rewrite the proof symbolically, I'd not really know where to start here. There would be a lot of undefined variables.


    Seconded, I'd get lost after P2.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #45 - February 19, 2015, 08:29 PM

    Ah no, it could still be since the problem of definition can be relayed into what you said in P1 - and argued that logic as an axiom system is natural. This is sort of the point I was making, that there are assignments of understandings to variables which are loose.


    Say if natural is defined as "not caused by humankind".

    Doesn't that undermine P1?

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #46 - February 19, 2015, 08:32 PM

    .

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #47 - February 19, 2015, 08:35 PM

    Yeah though I think natural can't mean that since if humans did not exist, then the natural still would exist. So natural is just defined as the universe (I think). It's so loose that I wish the proof giver would define terms lol

    Love you too Tongue

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #48 - February 19, 2015, 08:39 PM

    .

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #49 - February 19, 2015, 08:43 PM

    Yes exactly. With that definition of natural, it immediately refutes P1. Smiley

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #50 - February 19, 2015, 08:44 PM

    Yeah though I think natural can't mean that since if humans did not exist, then the natural still would exist. So natural is just defined as the universe (I think). It's so loose that I wish the proof giver would define terms lol


    Doesn't that support my claim?

    If humans didn't exist, it would still follow that the universe isn't caused by humankind.

    (1) Natural iff not caused by humankind
    (2) The universe is not caused by humankind
    (3) natural is defined as the universe
    (4) from 1 and 2, the universe is natural
    (5) from 3 and 4, the universe is the universe
    (6) 5 is a tautology, it is true in all possible worlds





    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #51 - February 19, 2015, 08:44 PM

    I believe the first 'if' is assuming the naturalist position that supernatural explanations have no explanatory power/ meaning.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #52 - February 19, 2015, 08:49 PM

    It's just propositional logic with poorly defined terms.


    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #53 - February 19, 2015, 08:51 PM

    Doesn't that support my claim?

    If humans didn't exist, it would still follow that the universe isn't caused by humankind.

    (1) Natural iff not caused by humankind
    (2) The universe is not caused by humankind
    (3) natural is defined as the universe
    (4) from 1 and 2, the universe is natural
    (5) from 3 and 4, the universe is the universe
    (6) 5 is a tautology, it is true in all possible worlds







    True Smiley

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #54 - February 19, 2015, 09:00 PM

    Quote
    I believe the first 'if' is assuming the naturalist position that supernatural explanations have no explanatory power/ meaning.


    Possibly, but he fucked up by using the terms "meaning" and "natural" in a loose way.


    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #55 - February 19, 2015, 09:17 PM

    Another response from the friends over at Philosophy SE.

    Quote
    I don't think this is in essence any different from various ontological arguments; I don't think it bears much relation to Plantinga's Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism. (Plantinga does have a version of an ontological argument.)

    Plantinga's ontological argument, and your argument, manifest a confusion about the difference between what one can imagine (or state) and what is real. That is, you start by granting that our minds can outline states of affairs that are not real, model worlds if you will; and then you insist that because some quality or property or proposition is true in the model world, it has some bearing on the real world. It need not! We can formally state all sorts of things that have no bearing on the real world at all, and in at least some sense we can imagine them.

    There is no real avenue for improvement because it is exactly this (invalid) jump that forms the crux of the argument. In fact, pretty much every premise of yours is highly doubtful in the sense you mean it once this jump is ruled out. "All conceptions of reality are derived from the natural world" may be true causally, but only in the sense that all YouTube videos are "derived" from nonlinear properties of electrons in doped silicon. It's not the kind of derivation you need to conclude anything about the real world given our models of it. To show that strong kind of derivation you would need to undertake an extensive empirical study, and would probably come up empty.

    Likewise, conceptions of reality need not, prima facie, be a coherence of meaningful experiences (though to call it a "conception of reality" we would expect to find some coherence and meaning even if fragmented). It seems doubtful that people believe that God shares no properties with the natural world if you allow that things like "love" and "justice" can be statements about very complex processes in the natural world. People extrapolate all the time, and P5 basically says, "No extrapolation, that's cheating!"; also, advanced pure mathematics is almost entirely about stuff that is meaningful in contexts absurdly disjoint from properties of the natural world.

    (For what it's worth, Plantinga makes a very different kind of mistake with the EAAN, which is to confuse a possible world that he can imagine with the actual world and its correlation structure; in cases where correlations are unreliable or biased, we do in fact have unreliable perceptions, e.g. passage of time when one has a fever, all sorts of impressions about our internal state, etc.. The EAAN is a good argument that not any natural world could be comprehensible to evolved organisms, but it is a horrible argument that our natural world doesn't reward comprehension with fitness.)

    So--sorry!--this sort of tactic doesn't generally lead anywhere (hasn't ever yet, at least), even if it can be transiently interesting along the way.


    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #56 - February 19, 2015, 10:13 PM

    That's a really in depth analysis, and it overlaps with what we were saying here which is good (i.e. the shakiness of the first half of P1 and then your illustration of an alternative which contradicts the original construction), and similar reasoning then applied to other premises (though of course one premise being weak means the whole argument is, so pointing out mistakes in all is just for the sake of completeness). I enjoyed this activity!

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #57 - February 19, 2015, 10:42 PM

    Quote
    Likewise, conceptions of reality need not, prima facie, be a coherence of meaningful experiences (though to call it a "conception of reality" we would expect to find some coherence and meaning even if fragmented). It seems doubtful that people believe that God shares no properties with the natural world if you allow that things like "love" and "justice" can be statements about very complex processes in the natural world..


    This is a good point, theistic moral realism where God grounds morality presupposes that God objectifies some natural features of the world framed under labels such as "evil".

    If Kevin is arguing that God shares no properties with the natural world, he can't claim that God grounds morality (if he affirms that position, I'm not aware of his metaethical stance).

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #58 - February 19, 2015, 10:44 PM

    It again comes down to definitions. Smiley

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Educated Muslim Apologist.
     Reply #59 - February 19, 2015, 11:02 PM

    Pretty much, but it's unavoidable in deductive logic anyways.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
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