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 Topic: Cogito Ergo Sum

 (Read 3757 times)
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  • Cogito Ergo Sum
     OP - February 23, 2015, 12:25 AM

    We all know the quote from the famous René Descartes, which is

    Quote
    Cogito Ergo Sum
    "I think therefore I am"


    Can we question the truthness of this statement? What do "think" and "am" mean? Given the presupposition is of "I" in the statement, can we question the existence of "I" here? With the earlier definitions of "think" and "am", can we then consider the statement "I am therefore I think" also?

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Cogito Ergo Sum
     Reply #1 - February 23, 2015, 12:33 AM

    .

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Cogito Ergo Sum
     Reply #2 - February 23, 2015, 12:51 AM

    The evil demon thought experiment by Descartes is relevant to this:

    Quote
    The evil demon, sometimes referred to as the evil genius, is a concept in Cartesian philosophy. In his 1641 Meditations on First Philosophy, René Descartes hypothesized the existence of an evil demon, a personification who is "as clever and deceitful as he is powerful, who has directed his entire effort to misleading me." The evil demon presents a complete illusion of an external world, including other minds, to Descartes' senses, where there is no such external world in existence. The evil genius also presents to Descartes' senses a complete illusion of his own body, including all bodily sensations, when Descartes has no body. Some Cartesian scholars opine that the demon is also omnipotent, and thus capable of altering mathematics and the fundamentals of logic, though omnipotence of the evil demon would be contrary to Descartes' hypothesis, as he rebuked accusations of the evil demon having omnipotence.


    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Cogito Ergo Sum
     Reply #3 - February 23, 2015, 12:55 AM

    Take the case of someone who has brain stem death. They "are", but they don't have the potential for consciousness. Thus, do they "think"?





    If we define "are" to simply mean "alive", then yes "I am therefore I think" has a counter-example in this. Even so it holds for almost every case (can say it has a weak holding). Just need to define the measure appropriately.

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Cogito Ergo Sum
     Reply #4 - February 23, 2015, 01:06 AM

    I worded my first reply wrong.

    Think of your argument as an "If...then" statement.

    In propositional calculus, the entire implication is false if the antecedent is true and the consequent is false.

    I am > I think

    P > Q

    If one can demonstrate that "I think" is false, then the implication falls part, given that ∃x.

    So, take the case of x, who has brain stem death. Since thinking is a function of consciousness, and x doesn't have consciousness, can x think?

    If they can't think, then Q is false.

    If ∃x, then P is true in the most trivial of ways.



    Anyways, this is just some midnight Philosophy, I'll take a proper look (If I can be bothered) at a later date Tongue

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Cogito Ergo Sum
     Reply #5 - February 23, 2015, 01:18 AM

    Hahaha yeah true - I didn't actually think of the existential element. The reason I suggested almost every case it holding was thinking of it as a universal statement then thinking of the "almost everywhere" concept in mathematics when looking at measure theory. However you are quite right in the sense that it has to be false due to it being existential.

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Cogito Ergo Sum
     Reply #6 - February 23, 2015, 09:42 PM

    Quote
    Can we question the truthness of this statement?


    Yes, stay tuned.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Cogito Ergo Sum
     Reply #7 - February 23, 2015, 09:47 PM

    You may know the quote from Descartes, I know it from Star Trek TNG, when Moriarty leaves the holodeck.
  • Cogito Ergo Sum
     Reply #8 - February 23, 2015, 11:38 PM

    I know the intention behind it, as you explained above, Qtian, but the phrase itself - especially taken out of context - has always bothered me. Here's why.

    He questions the existence of 'I', but then goes on to assume it exists and ascribes it a function: 'think'. From that he concludes that 'I' exists.

    It's akin to saying: 'Does ice exist? Ice is cold, it exists!'
  • Cogito Ergo Sum
     Reply #9 - February 24, 2015, 12:53 AM

    As I delve into the Cogito: Part one


    So, I've been researching the Cogito. Naturally, a good starting point is Descartes' epistemology and his Meditations.

    He opens the First Meditations by arguing that he needs to demolish everything and start from the foundations:

    Quote
    Reason now leads me to think that I should hold back my assent from opinions which are not completely certain and indubitable just as carefully as I do from those which are patently false. So, for the purpose of rejecting all my opinions, it will be enough if I find in each of them at least some reason for doubt.


    This is what I have managed to gather so far:

    Descartes was a foundationalist, while he believed that some beliefs may be justified by others, there are also some other beliefs that are basic. Let’s say that we have some belief A which in turn is justified by some belief B which is justified by C… until we get down to some belief which is justified by itself, a self-justified basic belief, this is the belief that Descartes is searching for.

    These beliefs will have the properties of being: indubitable, true, error free in derivation, self-justified and infallible. In order to find these beliefs, Descartes tries to launch the most sceptical arguments he has at his disposal and create a very high bar for knowledge.

    The first target he has in his search for basic beliefs is our beliefs about sense perception.
    Descartes will present three sorts of sceptical argument: One that is too weak, one that is too strong and one that is “just right”.

    The too weak argument: Our sense perceptions may be flawed in the same way that they are flawed when we look at optical illusions.  This is too weak because it only challenges one of our perceptions, vision.

    The too strong argument:  The thought that he is a madman; he has no rationality and no sense.  This is too strong, because if it were true, at no point would Descartes be able to reason that he is a madman.

    The just right argument: An argument dealing with the idea that Descartes might be dreaming. When you dream, all of your senses seem to function perfectly well, until you realise later on that you were dreaming.
    This argument is stronger than the one from optical illusions because it affects all of your senses but it is weaker than the madman because at a later point you will of course realise that you were dreaming.

    After these three arguments, Descartes believes that he has dealt with the notion of sense perception and that it can’t be a basic belief.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Cogito Ergo Sum
     Reply #10 - February 24, 2015, 01:28 AM

    I know the intention behind it, as you explained above, Qtian, but the phrase itself - especially taken out of context - has always bothered me. Here's why.

    He questions the existence of 'I', but then goes on to assume it exists and ascribes it a function: 'think'. From that he concludes that 'I' exists.

    It's akin to saying: 'Does ice exist? Ice is cold, it exists!'


    Cold is the absence of warmth but I get your drift cool2

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
  • Cogito Ergo Sum
     Reply #11 - February 24, 2015, 12:54 PM

    As I delve into the Cogito: Part one


    So, I've been researching the Cogito. Naturally, a good starting point is Descartes' epistemology and his Meditations.

    He opens the First Meditations by arguing that he needs to demolish everything and start from the foundations:

    This is what I have managed to gather so far:

    Descartes was a foundationalist, while he believed that some beliefs may be justified by others, there are also some other beliefs that are basic. Let’s say that we have some belief A which in turn is justified by some belief B which is justified by C… until we get down to some belief which is justified by itself, a self-justified basic belief, this is the belief that Descartes is searching for.

    These beliefs will have the properties of being: indubitable, true, error free in derivation, self-justified and infallible. In order to find these beliefs, Descartes tries to launch the most sceptical arguments he has at his disposal and create a very high bar for knowledge.

    The first target he has in his search for basic beliefs is our beliefs about sense perception.
    Descartes will present three sorts of sceptical argument: One that is too weak, one that is too strong and one that is “just right”.

    The too weak argument: Our sense perceptions may be flawed in the same way that they are flawed when we look at optical illusions.  This is too weak because it only challenges one of our perceptions, vision.

    The too strong argument:  The thought that he is a madman; he has no rationality and no sense.  This is too strong, because if it were true, at no point would Descartes be able to reason that he is a madman.

    The just right argument: An argument dealing with the idea that Descartes might be dreaming. When you dream, all of your senses seem to function perfectly well, until you realise later on that you were dreaming.
    This argument is stronger than the one from optical illusions because it affects all of your senses but it is weaker than the madman because at a later point you will of course realise that you were dreaming.

    After these three arguments, Descartes believes that he has dealt with the notion of sense perception and that it can’t be a basic belief.


    So basically he was in essence in search for the axioms and/or tautologies of belief itself, in a sense. That is rather interesting! The last part gives strong implications towards those who use sensory perception purely as a measure for forming beliefs - ie those who understand sensory perception to be the most fundamental building block for understanding the universe. Fascinating!

    One only acquires wisdom when one sets the heart and mind open to new ideas.

    Chat: http://client01.chat.mibbit.com/#ex-muslims
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