Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Lights on the way
by akay
November 22, 2024, 02:51 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
November 22, 2024, 06:45 AM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
November 21, 2024, 08:08 PM

Gaza assault
November 21, 2024, 07:56 PM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
November 21, 2024, 05:07 PM

New Britain
November 20, 2024, 05:41 PM

اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
November 20, 2024, 09:02 AM

Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
November 19, 2024, 11:36 PM

Dutch elections
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 10:11 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 08:46 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
November 07, 2024, 09:56 AM

The origins of Judaism
by zeca
November 02, 2024, 12:56 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Draft Article on Surat al Fil

 (Read 38352 times)
  • Previous page 1 23 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #30 - March 13, 2015, 08:34 PM

    http://www.free-minds.org/people-elephant

    http://www.alseraj.net/maktaba/kotob/english/quran/TheLight/english/quran/light/105/105_1-5.htm

    https://ia601406.us.archive.org/29/items/SyriacPeshitta/Peshitta.pdf

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #31 - March 13, 2015, 08:58 PM

    Apparently travelling on four elephants was possible, whether or not the Ethiopians ever actually tried it.


    Wow.  That's crazy.  Reminds me oddly of this boat I saw in Hangzhou in China.



    Yeez, thanks for the links.  The chronology of elephant battles listed in that Free Minds link gives a good demonstration of how out-of-place the battle of Mecca would be in the larger history of elephantine combat.

    The Peshitta link is cool, but available Peshitta OT texts almost invariably seem to exclude 3 Maccabees (unlike the early OT Peshitta manuscripts).  Other Eastern Christian bibles still include 3 Macc, but you'd really want the Semitic translation, since if it sheds any light on the language of Q 105 that's where you'd expect to see it.

    This is where a Syriacist comes in handy, but they're in short supply.
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #32 - March 13, 2015, 09:13 PM

    The four elephants come from Marco Polo's description of Kublai Khan:

    https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=3q5hd3_qQVkC&pg=PT1162&lpg=PT1162&dq=marco+polo+four+elephants&source=bl&ots=Ab6thxH4k2&sig=FKpV5X0S00sIDxlruYP_48gmRXs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=eVEDVY2BOcOqU5jSgYgF&ved=0CDwQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q=marco%20polo%20four%20elephants&f=false

    An alternative interpretation:

  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #33 - March 15, 2015, 06:00 PM

    Here's Cosmas Indicopleustes' transcription of the surviving part of an inscription from Ptolemy III at Adulis on the Eritrean coast. This gets quoted by Bowersock in the Throne of Adulis. It refers to capturing elephants from Ethiopia, as well the use of Indian elephants.

    http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/cosmas_02_book2.htm
    Quote
    The great king, Ptolemy, son of King Ptolemy and Queen Arsinoe, twin gods, grandson of the two sovereigns King Ptolemy and Queen Berenice ---gods sôtêres----sprung from Hercules the son of Jupiter on the father's side, and on the mother's side from Dionysus the son of Jupiter----having received from his father the Kingdom of Egypt and Libya and Syria and Phoenicia and Cyprus, and Lycia and Caria, and the Islands of the Cyclades, made an expedition into Asia with forces of infantry and cavalry, and a fleet and elephants from the Troglodytes and Ethiopia----animals which his father and himself were the first to capture by hunting in those countries, and which they took down to Egypt, where they had them trained for employment in war. And when he had made himself master of all the country on this side of the Euphrates, and of Cilicia and Pamphylia and Ionia, and the Hellespont and Thrace, and of all the forces in the provinces, and of the Indian elephants, and had also made subject to his authority all the monarchs who ruled in these parts, he crossed the Euphrates river, and when he had subdued Mesopotamia and Babylonia and Susiana and Persis and Media, and all the rest of the country as far as Bactriana, and had collected all the spoils of the temples which had been taken away from Egypt by the Persians, he conveyed them to that country along with the other treasures, and sent back his troops by canals which had been dug....


    From the same link here's a quote from the Periplus (first century AD).
    Quote
    95. 1 Conf. Periplus, c. 3. "To the south of the Moschophagi, near the sea, lies a small emporium about 4,000 stadia distant from Berenice, and called Ptolemais Theron, from which, in the days of the Ptolemies, the hunters whom they employed used to go up into the interior to catch elephants. This place was very suitable for the purpose, as it lay on the skirts of the great Nubian forest in which elephants abounded. Before it was made a depot for the elephant trade, the Egyptian Kings had to import these animals from Asia; but as the supply was precarious and the cost of their importation very great, Philadelphia made most tempting offers to the Ethiopian elephant hunters to induce them to abstain from eating the animal, or at least to reserve a portion of them for the royal stables. They rejected, however, all his offers, declaring that even for all Egypt they would not forego their favourite luxury."


    According to Bowersock Ptolemais Theron ("Ptolemais of the Hunts") would have been on the Eritrean coast to the north of Adulis.

    Quote from: Bowersock
    The emphasis on elephants in this text seems to reflect its placement in a part of East Africa where both elephant hunts and trade in ivory were common. That does not of course mean that Ptolemy and his father, or their surrogates, necessarily did their hunting in the immediate vicinity of Adulis. The reference to Troglodytis (more correctly Trogodytis) as well as Ethiopia indicates that the hunting went on across a very large territory well to the east of the Nile in East Africa. The territory of Trogodytis first appears in the fifth century BC in Herodotus, who called its inhabitants Trogolodytes, "cave dwellers", known for running fast, eating snakes, and squealing like bats. He located them vaguely in Ethiopia, but four centuries later the geographer Strabo placed them clearly between the Nile and the Red Sea, and it was in the intervening period between these two writers that Ptolemy III made his allusion to Trogodytis as a region for elephant hunting. The name of Ptolemais of the Hunts, which lay on the west coast of the Red Sea, presumably reflects the activity and roughly the chronological period to which Ptolemy refers. In the days of the Periplus, a little less than a century after Strabo, the elder Pliny wrote that the Trogodytes, "who live on the border of Ethiopia," made their living exclusively from hunting elephants.

    A few documentary texts on papyrus provide tantalizing glimpses into the elephant industry of this period and the compensation paid to those who worked in it. Two are dated to the last years of the reign of Ptolemy III, and one explicitly mentions elephant ships at Berenice, including a ship that had sunk - presumably from its heavy load. An old canal was reopened linking the Nile an the Red Sea to facilitate contacts across the region, and conceivably this was the canal to which Ptolemy alludes in the enigmatic last words that survive from the inscription on the Adulis stele.

  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #34 - March 15, 2015, 06:25 PM

    elephants from Ethiopia, as well the use of Indian elephants..........

    well frankly speaking these silly verses I read in that 5 line chapter of Quran

    Quote
    Have you not considered how your Lord dealt with the possessors of the elephant?
      Did He not cause their war to end in confusion,
      And send down (to prey) upon them birds in flocks,
      Casting against them stones of baked clay,
      So He rendered them like straw eaten up?"


    is nothing to do with Ethiopian elephants.. Indian elephants, African elephants, Asian elephants or elephants in some  real stories that may have been floating around Arabian peninsula during the time of Quran production. What is important in Quran is the words that reinforce faith either by fear in the life or fear in Allah  or by that free pass to heavenly houries, honey filled swimming pools after the death. So the words that are important  in that five lined surah are

    Quote
    "Have you not considered" ..............

    "Did He not cause".......

    or

    "did  you not see"...........

    did they not see"............

    Those starting words are important. And you see them quite often in Quran "either for inducing fear in  those who questioned early Islam or for reinforcing the faith in those who followed early Islam".
    rest of the statement could be the stories of Elephants.. rats, cats, dogs .. birds.. or wide eyed houries, honey filled swimming pools .......  it doesn't matter.. .............

    Damn five lines become  a chapter and 300 lines become another chapter .. fools who put that book together messed so much, if you just read once or twice .. it scares the hell out  of you or you get bored very quickly. The stories it tells you  have neither heads nor tails and that is true to all the stories in that book..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #35 - March 15, 2015, 06:45 PM

     Ohyee infidels, apostates, and RASCALS that are trying to use their brain to analyze Allah words.. gods words.,  finmad

    to all of you let me add some  Quran here to reinforce the faith in you
    Quote
    ………………… "Who is superior to us in strength?" What! did they not see that Allah, Who created them, was superior to them in strength? But they continued to reject Our Signs! (Fussilat, Verse #15)

    And do they not see that We do drive rain to parched soil (bare of herbage), and produce therewith crops, providing food for their cattle and themselves? Have they not the vision?  (As-Sajda, Verse #27)

    do ye not see that Allah has subjected to your (use) all things in the heavens and on earth, and has made his bounties flow to you in exceeding measure, (both) seen and unseen? Yet there are among men those who dispute about Allah, without knowledge and without guidance, and without a Book to enlighten them! ( Luqman,   Verse #20)

     Such as fear not the meeting with Us (for Judgment) say: "Why are not the angels sent down to us, or (why) do we not see our Lord?" Indeed they have an arrogant conceit of themselves, and mighty is the insolence of their impiety! (Al-Furqan,   Verse #21)

      Could they not see that it could not return them a word (for answer), and that it had no power either to harm them or to do them good? (Taha, Verse #89)

    They will in no wise frustrate (His design) on earth, nor have they protectors besides Allah! Their penalty will be doubled! They lost the power to hear, and they did not see! ( Hud,   Verse #20)

    Do they see nothing in the government of the heavens and the earth and all that Allah hath created? (Do they not see) that it may well be that their terms is nigh drawing to an end? In what message after this will they then believe?  ( Al-Araf,   Verse #185)


    read read well and cry  cry for your foul thinking you foul brains............

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #36 - March 15, 2015, 07:01 PM

    Yeez - Bowersock is making the argument for the Islamic exegesis having some kind of historical reality - that maybe Abraha really did use elephants to attack Mecca. The book, and the arguments, are interesting but Zaotar's theory that the Qur'an is actually referencing a story in Maccabees does sound a lot more likely.
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #37 - March 15, 2015, 08:16 PM

    Yeez - Bowersock is making the argument for the Islamic exegesis having some kind of historical reality - that maybe Abraha really did use elephants to attack Mecca. The book, and the arguments, are interesting but Zaotar's theory that the Qur'an is actually referencing a story in Maccabees does sound a lot more likely.

     well any one any article  that gets support from LOONS OF loon watch.. I flatly throw in to trash

    Quote
    Glen Bowersock: In the Shadow of the Sword by Tom Holland–Review

    ..........Tom Holland’s most recent book takes aim at the Meccan origins of Islam, but as Glen Bowersock writes it is one of the most “irresponsible” books on Arabia in recent memory.........

    "The Army of Elephants and the Flocks of Birds..."

    Quote

    well zeca read that link of Loon watch...

     silly stories and stupid people... but you guys are right.,  we do need to add the literature/stories  of angry birds and army of elephants that was/were there before the birth of alleged prophet of Islam..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #38 - March 15, 2015, 08:18 PM

    The big change I'd make is to point out that Hannibal and the Ptolemies used a north African elephant. This was cut off from the rest of Africa by the Sahara, and developed into a more domesticable subspecies - like the Indian elephant. I think that the northern elephant had died out during the Roman era - inbreeding, Vandal raids, and farmers driving them off their crops would be likely causes.

    According to Cyprian Broodbank in the Making of the Middle Sea elephants survived in Morocco until 'less than a thousand years ago'. Hannibal's elephants probably came from the Tell area of Tunisia, roughly the interior of the country, well away from the coast and to the north of the desert. Now it's mostly fairly treeless but in Hannibal's time it would probably have had scattered evergreen oaks similar to parts of Greece and Spain - a kind of Mediterranean version of African savannah and a natural habitat for elephants. Most likely they'd have lost that habitat as the area was turned into the source of Rome's grain supply. This picture from Algeria gives an idea of the kind of landscape.



    Also according to Broodbank, elephants arrived in North Africa, along with other sub-Saharan species, as the Sahara turned green after the end of the Younger Dryas in the tenth millennium BC. The population would have been isolated as the Sahara dried up again in the fourth millennium BC, but this doesn't really sound like much time for it to develop into a distinct subspecies. In any case the Ethiopian elephants would have been the same kind that are found in Ethiopia today and not part of the North African population.



    Rock art from Tadrart Acacus in the Libyan Sahara
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #39 - March 15, 2015, 09:08 PM

    Having thought about it more and more, I'm increasingly attracted to the following theory:  If Q 105 refers to 3 Macc, and if the cryptic last verses are actually a retelling of the *angels* who (in 3 Macc) descend from heaven to rout the Ptolemaic King's army, then many of the pieces connect very nicely here.  Specifically, if you look at the solitary OTHER Qur'anic use of the phrase "bhijaratin min sijillin," (Q 11:82) it is in the specific context of *angelic visitors to Abraham* who report that to Abraham they just delivered a "bhijaratin min sijillin" as the punishment against the wicked people (in other words, the angels just destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah with fire + brimstone).

    http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=11&verse=82

    So given that precise parallel, it makes beautiful sense that in both of the two Qur'anic instances of this exact same peculiar phrase it is *flying angels* who are delivering this divine rain of destruction against the wicked.  Not birds.  11:82 and 105:3-4 would be saying almost the exact same thing, in very similar language, if you understood the "flyers" to be angels rather than birds.  Also it makes perfect sense for angels to be annihilating the army, as opposed to a flock of small birds.

    Second, if we accept as correct the traditional Islamic understanding of ababila to mean "ranks" or "divisions," then that would simply be a strange word used to convey the very common Qur'anic and Biblical description of a host of heavenly angels ... which are constantly characterized as ordered in ranks, albeit with more normal Arabic terminology.  For example, 89:22.

    http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=89&verse=22

    Or Surah 37 (this surah is even titled about Angels in "ranks"):

    http://quran.com/37

    Even more examples:

    The Day when Heaven is split apart in clouds, and the angels are sent down rank upon rank. The Kingdom that Day will belong in truth to the All-Merciful. It will be a hard Day for the disbelievers. (Surat al-Furqan, 25-26)

    And your Lord arrives with the angels rank upon rank and that Day Hell is produced, that Day man will remember; but how will the remembrance help him? (Surat al-Fajr, 22-23)

    On that Day, the Occurrence will occur and Heaven will be split apart, for that Day it will be very frail. The angels will be gathered round its edge. On that Day, eight will bear the Throne of their Lord above their heads. (Surat al-Haqqa, 15-17)

    On the Day when the Spirit and the angels stand in ranks, no one will speak, except for him who is authorised by the All-Merciful and says what is right. (Surat an-Naba, 38)


    So flying *angels in ranks* that rain down brimstone.  Not flocks of birds.  The more I think about this, the more this rather easily solves a host of problems in a way that is consistent across the board.  I'll revise the article to talk about this possibility in some more detail.
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #40 - March 15, 2015, 10:05 PM

    I discussed your view about sura al fil with a friend who studied Islamic history at soas and he completely agreed.
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #41 - March 16, 2015, 01:14 AM

    Thanks for the feedback Hassan!

    Btw, another thought occurs to me.  If it's correct that tayran in Q 105 refers metaphorically to a host of 'angels,' rather than birds, this raises another question:  Has that same archaic metaphorical term tayran been misunderstood in the same over-literal way elsewhere in the Qur'an?

    Obvious candidate:  King Solomon and his bizarre army of men, jinn, and tayran, understood as 'birds.'  Q 27:17.

    Perhaps this is a later misunderstanding of what in more archaic texts originally meant men, jinn, and angels (tayran, metaphorically), thus making Solomon's army consist of all three sapient non-God races in the Qur'an (Solomon being the master King).  In later texts, the metaphorical term for angels became misunderstood as literal birds, a secondary meaning that has taken over.  And in later Qur'anic texts, that is why the birds form a staunch part of Solomon's army ... arranged in ranks no less.

    An interesting theory, but I'd like to see support from other angles before I gave it much weight.
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #42 - March 16, 2015, 01:18 AM

    Hey Zaotar
    Check out this thread.It would be interesting to have your comments.

    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=28422.msg812216;topicseen#new
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #43 - March 16, 2015, 01:34 AM

    just for the sake of this thread., As many people do consider Quran as book of parables., book with hidden meanings or book of polemics against idolaters and others who questioned Quran., let me put this translation of that surah with its tafsir..

    Quote
    Surah 105      AL-FEEL–The dire consequences for nations living on the basis of personal gains at the expense of each other instead of living by way of life advised by their creator and sustainer  

    This surah is named AL-FEEL from root FAA, YAA and LAAM. Concrete meaning of this root is weakness of a structure or body. It also means elephant, pachyderm, white elephant, an albino Indian elephant, a highly valuable thing, something or someone that is big in size or weight or power or value etc, over stretched or over burdened organisation or society or community, a population that cannot manage its people and resources, a people who lack wisdom, a people who give or are given bad advice or counsel, to rebuke, to confront or oppose, a visible symbol representing an abstract idea, a rare or expensive possession that is a financial burden to maintain, something of dubious origin or of limited value, an article or ornament or household utensil no longer wanted by its owner, an endeavour or venture that proves to be a conspicuous failure, an elaborate venture or construction etc that proves useless, a rare or valuable possession the upkeep of which is very expensive, a possession unwanted by the owner but difficult to dispose of, a possession entailing great expense out of proportion to its value to the owner, an animal that has enormous appetite or has become too mean or has become useless or has become an expensive possession to keep, a possession that is more trouble than it is worth etc etc.

    This surah is named AL-FEEL because the Quran is full of stories about past people who lived their lives on basis of personal gains at the expense of each other whereby they made weakest of their people suffer terribly. In time the end result was their mutual destruction as a people, due to divisions they created among themselves out of rivalries and animosities that resulted from the way of life they adopted for themselves. The stories in the Quran are for general awareness to help people think how they should live so that they do not end up like people of the past who inflicted harm and destruction upon each other and thereby drove themselves out of existence. AS-HAABIL FEEL not only means people who own elephant but also a people who adopt a burdensome way of life as if one is keeping an elephant or carrying it on one’s back. It is about masses who carry burden of rulers, mullahs and money lenders. These are their expensive elephants to keep. To sustain and maintain these elites is not an easy thing for any human population in the world. The divine message exposes the tricks and mechanisms rulers, mullahs and money lenders use to fool their masses and that is why they try their best to oppose the divine revelation and try to mask its true message because that way they can keep their ignorant, illiterate and uneducated masses isolated from becoming aware of things which could endanger continuity of these elites ie the rulers, mullahs and money lenders.    

    Proclaim! In the name of Allah, the provider of psychological, sociological and biological needs of mankind,

    1] Why do you the mankind not considered how set-up systems and laws of your Creator and Sustainer delivered to the people outcome of their own actions who adopted a way of life that was crushingly burdensome for them?

    In this verse word FEEL does not mean actual elephant the animal but a way of life that people create and adopt for themselves as a population. This verse is explaining how set-up systems and laws of Allah deal with people who accept to live by this way of life ie on basis of personal gains at the expense of each other. The rulers, mullahs and money lenders trick them into this way of life and they accept it but then after a while they realise that rulers, mullahs and money lenders are a very heavy burden upon them to carry or live with because under its weight they face more and more hardship and problems and those problems finally destroy them as a people. It is a crushing burden for mankind to live under such ways of life where each person is fighting all the others not just for survival but for dominance and control and that is why Allah sent his messengers with guidance to help remove all these crushing hardships and difficulties by a way of life that makes life worth living because it ties all people into a brotherhood that is supposed to share burden of life rather than putting more and more pressure on each other on top of livelihood problems. See 7/157 for example. Negative competition increases problems many folds for individuals where as positive completion deceases problems many folds. Think about how many people you are up against in a negative competition and how many people are supporting you in positive competition. In one way of life you are fighting with all people to get what you want and in the other all are at your service to help you get what you need. There is huge difference in having loads of enemies in life and having loads of friends. This is the difference between the Quranic way of life and the rest.    

    2] Did He not forewarn them that all their scheming against His guidance will come to nothing?

    3] By letting rain down upon them results of their own actions bundles upon bundles,


    Word TAIR is from root TWAA, YAA and RAA, already explained bad news or problem as well as plan or bird or flying object etc.

    Word ABAABEEL is from root ALIF, BAA and LAAM. It means camel, a small bird, bundles of something etc etc.

    4] striking them down as if with huge hailstones,

    5] that is how His set-up systems and laws let them end up like an empty field of stalk and straw of which the grain has been eaten up.


    This surah tells mankind stay away from burdensome ways of life or wait for the outcome for adopting such ways of life in due course.

    and that is how my good friend Mughal translates those verses..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #44 - March 16, 2015, 12:44 PM

    Thanks for the feedback Hassan!

    Btw, another thought occurs to me.  If it's correct that tayran in Q 105 refers metaphorically to a host of 'angels,' rather than birds, this raises another question:  Has that same archaic metaphorical term tayran been misunderstood in the same over-literal way elsewhere in the Qur'an?

    Obvious candidate:  King Solomon and his bizarre army of men, jinn, and tayran, understood as 'birds.'  Q 27:17.

    Perhaps this is a later misunderstanding of what in more archaic texts originally meant men, jinn, and angels (tayran, metaphorically), thus making Solomon's army consist of all three sapient non-God races in the Qur'an (Solomon being the master King).  In later texts, the metaphorical term for angels became misunderstood as literal birds, a secondary meaning that has taken over.  And in later Qur'anic texts, that is why the birds form a staunch part of Solomon's army ... arranged in ranks no less.

    An interesting theory, but I'd like to see support from other angles before I gave it much weight.


    The only problem with applying this to the Sulayman story is that it also goes on to talk about the bird that went missing using the word Hud-hud.

    btw here's a (light-hearted) video I did about the Sulayman story in the Qur'an  grin12

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLdfvGcQa4c

  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #45 - March 16, 2015, 12:50 PM


    btw here's a (light-hearted) video I did
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLdfvGcQa4c



    Damn you.. you are a  gooood narrator., you should do some children's videos  for education  mixing silly religious stories and modern science..   

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #46 - March 16, 2015, 12:59 PM

    And while I'm at it, this is the video I made about Sura al-Fil (again light-hearted  grin12)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axgozNZ3yJs
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #47 - March 16, 2015, 03:12 PM

    Abraha gets a brief mention in Robert Hoyland's Arabia and the Arabs, pages 54-56

    https://archive.org/stream/ArabiaAndTheArabs/ArabiaAndTheArabs_djvu.txt
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #48 - March 16, 2015, 04:23 PM

    You have a great speaking voice Hassan!  Those vids were hilarious, thanks for posting them.

    But the argument would accept that the standard Qur'anic text is describing Solomon's army with trn used in the literal sense of 'birds,' and had accepted that literal meaning at the time of its composition.  As you've pointed out, the Qur'anic text about the hoopoe was obviously written with that literal understanding in mind.

    Instead, the argument is that *the origin* of this bizarre Qur'anic army is easily explained as follows.  In more archaic (now lost) texts and recitation, Solomon's army consisted of men, jinn, and angels (aerial servants/tayran).  Thus the great King had mastery over all three of the sentient races of beings, which is consistent with longstanding Jewish and Christian tradition that Solomon was a sort of grand wizard with power over angels and demons, who he used for his purposes (including building the Temple).

    At some point now lost to us, the ambiguous metaphorical term tayran as used to describe this tripartite army was strictly interpreted in its more literal sense of 'birds,' giving rise to a truly weird and assymetrical description.  Why was that done?  There's a very plausible explanation:  As the strictly monotheistic elements grew within Arabic believers, and many prior Judao/Christian beliefs began being seen as shirk by them, the longstanding Judaeo-Christian idea of a great Davidic King Solomon who commanded men, jinn, and *angels* began being seen as polytheistic and blasphemous.  Only Allah could command angels.  They are Allah's messengers, and for Solomon to command them would make him look like a rival God, associating him with Allah, sort of the way Christians (mis)understood Jesus, another heir to David's throne who the People of the Book had wrongly divinized.  Even MHMD didn't command angels (the Qur'an makes a point of this, when people criticize Allah's messenger for his lack of angelic companions).  So how could Solomon have done so?

    So the easy fix to this offensive shirk was to interpret Solomon's legendary authority as being over literal birds, not winged angels -- accepted at the price of giving Solomon a really frickin' weird army.  The Qur'anic texts we have now were written, over time, with that secondary understanding being elaborated in greater and greater detail.  Unfortunately, if this speculation is correct, we have lost all traces of the more archaic usage of this formulation of Solomon's army, and are left with the more theologically acceptable and redacted versions now present in the text.

    Btw, this kind of thing is similar to how Biblical monotheism developed from earlier Canaanite religious texts and beliefs.  The hierarchy of older Canaanite deities was collapsed, with the deities either assimilated to El, excluded entirely as foul abominations (Baal most notably), or demoted to status of mere servants.  A sort of crushing monotheistic reinterpretation was steadily applied to older stories and beliefs.

    A fun theory in my book, which would make pretty decent sense out of what otherwise is one of the strangest parts of the Qur'an.  Instead of silly pagan superstition, what we actually have here is a contrived -- but relatively sophisticated -- theological dodge to reinterpret stories that had slowly become seen as offensive/dangerous.  As strict monotheistic theology increased within the movement, these stories had to either be reinterpreted, or excluded.  With Solomon's army, they were reinterpreted and retold in that form.  Other stories, of course, could not be salvaged, and were excluded.
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #49 - March 16, 2015, 05:44 PM

    Ahh... I get it now, and I have to say, again, a very compelling view indeed, Zaotar - you obviously missed your vocation and a time-travelling detective  Afro
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #50 - March 16, 2015, 11:47 PM

    I agree with Zoatar that the "طير" of surat al-fil make a lot more sense as angels than birds, same with Solomon's magic army. Very interesting spin on things. For comparison, when Arab grammarians wanted to coin a word for "airplane" in Arabic without stealing something from English or French, they just added at taa marbouta to the end of طائر producing طائرة for airplane (and طيار for pilot).

    I would be interested to see any info on the iconographical depiction of angels at this point in Christian late antiquity, whether or not they had gained the bird-like feathered wings which now typify the modern depiction of angels (even relatively sophisticated ones, see the Preacher comics and the movie Dogma).

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #51 - March 17, 2015, 01:56 AM

    Yep, from about 400 CE onward Christian angels usually were depicted in art with wings, per the inviolable source known as Wiki.

    At any rate, I have revised the essay to reflect what I now think is the better explanation of the language of Q 105:3-4 -- the 'angelic' interpretation.  Should anyone care to read it, pp. 14-17 are the ones that are changed, the rest is largely the same.

    https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-tdlCWx-0MIMl8wc0VjLUlMWG8/view?usp=sharing
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #52 - March 23, 2015, 08:11 PM

    Revised the essay to note that Q 35:1 explicitly describes angels as winged creatures, so no need to go into Christian tradition when the Qur'an itself describes angels as aerial winged creatures.

    "[All] praise is [due] to Allah , Creator of the heavens and the earth, [who] made the angels messengers having wings, two or three or four. He increases in creation what He wills. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent."
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #53 - March 24, 2015, 01:03 AM

    Suggested ammendation:

    When you mention gophrith in Hebrew (pasting it turns the word backwards, so no reproduction here) you render the initial kamatz vowel as o in the Latin letters. Although this is the accepted European -Ashkenazi pronunciation, in academic texts the modern Israeli pronunciation of a is more common.  gaprith would thus, IMO, be more appropriate (and since you're rendering the letters without the dagesh as their historical ph and th, this would be more historically accurate). /nitpick off


    BTW the h after the p in gaphrith was correct, it should be gaphrith not gaprith. The lack of the h was a  typo due to me being in a training class and rushing to type it lol.

    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #54 - March 30, 2015, 02:44 PM

    Elephants were apparently also tamed at Meroë.



    Relief of elephant and slaves from the lion temple at Musawwarat, northern Sudan



    Meroitic elephant model from the Nubian museum in Aswan
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #55 - March 30, 2015, 02:55 PM

    You have a great speaking voice Hassan!  Those vids were hilarious,.........


    yap..,  That is ONLY THE THING that is good with that Abu Ali.. rest,  everything is bad..bad.bad..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #56 - March 30, 2015, 04:30 PM

    Elephants were apparently also tamed at Meroë.


    (Clicky for piccy!)
    Relief of elephant and slaves from the lion temple at Musawwarat, northern Sudan


    (Clicky for piccy!)
    Meroitic elephant model from the Nubian museum in Aswan


    There are a number of elephant statues at Al-Musawarat Al-Sufra. So beyond a training center there is a cultural/religious link to the animals. I think one of the 3 temples is for the elephant itself.

    http://www.zamaniproject.org/index.php/musawwarat.html

    Meroe fell to Askum in 330ish. The city was abandoned but this does not mean the the people were lost. Is there perhaps a link between Aksum and the importation of tradeskills or people from Meroe?
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #57 - May 06, 2015, 08:10 PM

    Update -- I put this article up on Academia, and Guillaume Dye quite kindly wrote me to say that he thought it was an 'excellent' article, as well as providing a few comments.

    The unfortunate part is that he pointed out that de Premare had written a second, later, article on the subject, which I was unaware of, in which de Premare changed his mind and described it as a midrash on 3 Macc.  So that idea is not original to me, although it's interesting that I independently came on the idea.  He offered to send me the de Premare article, so I'll compare it with what I wrote.

    He agrees with me on the 'angelic' interpretation of the surah, and says he'll be making that point (which he had independently developed) in connection with an upcoming paper.

    He thinks that ababila should be understood as 'flocks' of angels in the sense of 'flocks of camels', from the Syriac, rather than 'ranks' or 'divisions,' as I had proposed.  That's actually the more traditional interpretation, but I had found the idea of 'flocks' of angels unsatisfactory.  Dye is probably right here though, since it explains the word's etymology, whereas I have no good alternative etymology to propose.

    On a related, but unfortunate, front, I came across a description of an article that Dye wrote on Q 97, describing it as making the same argument that I made in my recent article (a reference to the Incarnation, rather than physical birth, of Jesus, and essentially a paraphrase of Ephraim's Nativity hymn).  So my argument is right, but not original.    Cry   This seems to be a recurring theme for me.  I'm getting a copy of the Dye article to see if my Q 97 article retains any ideas original enough to merit putting up.
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #58 - May 06, 2015, 10:39 PM

    Where is it on Academia Zaotar?
  • Draft Article on Surat al Fil
     Reply #59 - May 06, 2015, 10:48 PM

    Update -- I put this article up on Academia, and Guillaume Dye quite kindly wrote me to say that he thought it was an 'excellent' article, as well as providing a few comments.


    It is excellent - great work, Zaotar  Smiley

    The unfortunate part is that he pointed out that de Premare had written a second, later, article on the subject, which I was unaware of, in which de Premare changed his mind and described it as a midrash on 3 Macc.  So that idea is not original to me, although it's interesting that I independently came on the idea.  He offered to send me the de Premare article, so I'll compare it with what I wrote.

    He agrees with me on the 'angelic' interpretation of the surah, and says he'll be making that point (which he had independently developed) in connection with an upcoming paper.

    He thinks that ababila should be understood as 'flocks' of angels in the sense of 'flocks of camels', from the Syriac, rather than 'ranks' or 'divisions,' as I had proposed.  That's actually the more traditional interpretation, but I had found the idea of 'flocks' of angels unsatisfactory.  Dye is probably right here though, since it explains the word's etymology, whereas I have no good alternative etymology to propose.

    On a related, but unfortunate, front, I came across a description of an article that Dye wrote on Q 97, describing it as making the same argument that I made in my recent article (a reference to the Incarnation, rather than physical birth, of Jesus, and essentially a paraphrase of Ephraim's Nativity hymn).  So my argument is right, but not original.    Cry   This seems to be a recurring theme for me.  I'm getting a copy of the Dye article to see if my Q 97 article retains any ideas original enough to merit putting up.


    You should take that as a compliment. As it shows you are on the right track. Keep it up, Zaotar - I look forward to more  Afro
  • Previous page 1 23 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »