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 Topic: The Big Questions debate on apostates

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  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #150 - March 18, 2015, 05:04 PM
    Someone should split this into a separate "Taqiyya" thread.
    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #151 - March 18, 2015, 05:18 PM
    Quote from: Descent on March 15, 2015, 07:02 PM
    It's absolutely rich when a Muslim continuously tries to play the victim card in front of an ex-Muslim.

     

    It's even more infuriating when it's a white convert like Andalusi who chose islam as an adult verses Amal who had it imposed on her as a child.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #152 - March 18, 2015, 05:36 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on March 18, 2015, 03:59 PM

    well whatever is the name we cal lual.,  it comes right out of biological evolution and it was there before Islam.



    I missed that linked post from yesterday, that's what i was attempting to say but failed, you've explained it much better.

    X
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #153 - March 18, 2015, 05:48 PM
    Quote
    It's even more infuriating when it's a white convert like Andalusi who chose islam as an adult verses Amal who had it imposed on her as a child.


    I can't think of any argument that I ever employed as an apologist or that I've ever seen used by an apologist that didn't boil down to pointing to a hypothetical Islam. And after you keep referencing this hypothetical Islam and trying to define it for long enough, that shit seems real, probably some idyllic thing like al-Andalus where everything works out, and that's the Islam you're hanging on to and defending, this thing that has never actually existed on Earth.

    So I remember being an apologist and having the nerve to say that I felt terrible for people who were mistreated because of Islam, but that it was a cultural problem, it had nothing to do with Islam, and Islam was just the excuse, and if everybody would just shut up for a second and let us set up the ideal Islamic state, everyone would be happy.

    It becomes easy as an apologist to therefore separate the actual realities of Islam as it has been practiced on Earth and this "right" Islam, and easy to accuse the apostate of needlessly slandering the right Islam for the wrong reasons, easy to forget that what you're seeing is a fantasy and what the apostate saw was the truth. I hate watching these things for a lot of reasons, but mostly because I remember being there.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #154 - March 18, 2015, 06:35 PM
    Quote from: lua on March 18, 2015, 05:48 PM
    I can't think of any argument that I ever employed as an apologist or that I've ever seen used by an apologist that didn't boil down to pointing to a hypothetical Islam. And after you keep referencing this hypothetical Islam and trying to define it for long enough, that shit seems real, probably some idyllic thing like al-Andalus where everything works out, and that's the Islam you're hanging on to and defending, this thing that has never actually existed on Earth.

    So I remember being an apologist and having the nerve to say that I felt terrible for people who were mistreated because of Islam, but that it was a cultural problem, it had nothing to do with Islam, and Islam was just the excuse, and if everybody would just shut up for a second and let us set up the ideal Islamic state, everyone would be happy.

    It becomes easy as an apologist to therefore separate the actual realities of Islam as it has been practiced on Earth and this "right" Islam, and easy to accuse the apostate of needlessly slandering the right Islam for the wrong reasons, easy to forget that what you're seeing is a fantasy and what the apostate saw was the truth. I hate watching these things for a lot of reasons, but mostly because I remember being there.


    I'm sorry but this also deserves to be in the greatest hits thread.

    You are on a roll, Lua.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #155 - March 18, 2015, 07:30 PM
    Hassan, you're too kind!  far away hug Thank you.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #156 - March 18, 2015, 08:30 PM
    Quote from: lua on March 18, 2015, 05:48 PM
    I can't think of any argument that I ever employed as an apologist or that I've ever seen used by an apologist that didn't boil down to pointing to a hypothetical Islam. And after you keep referencing this hypothetical Islam and trying to define it for long enough, that shit seems real, probably some idyllic thing like al-Andalus where everything works out, and that's the Islam you're hanging on to and defending, this thing that has never actually existed on Earth.

    So I remember being an apologist and having the nerve to say that I felt terrible for people who were mistreated because of Islam, but that it was a cultural problem, it had nothing to do with Islam, and Islam was just the excuse, and if everybody would just shut up for a second and let us set up the ideal Islamic state, everyone would be happy.

    It becomes easy as an apologist to therefore separate the actual realities of Islam as it has been practiced on Earth and this "right" Islam, and easy to accuse the apostate of needlessly slandering the right Islam for the wrong reasons, easy to forget that what you're seeing is a fantasy and what the apostate saw was the truth. I hate watching these things for a lot of reasons, but mostly because I remember being there.

     



    The thing is you were a " regular everyday muslim" for lack of a better word. You were defending your religious beliefs and didn't have a political agenda to impose them on everyone else through the state (correct me if I'm wrong).

     Abdullah Andalusi is affiliated with iERA. He says he doesn't support islamism as it's practiced on earth but that's really just a P.R. stunt. If that was actually the truth he'd be out there trying to reform islam and actively condemning those human rights violations as Maajid Nawaz, Usama Hasan and many other legitimately progressive muslims do.

    He's a slimy, two faced bigot who says one thing on T.V. and reverts back to his full out bigotry when he's only with muslims. I've seen enough  islamo-fascists like him to know that you can't trust what people like him say in public and on record. It's only when they are at muslim only gatherings that they reveal their true nature.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #157 - March 18, 2015, 08:38 PM
    You also have to see how he vehemently attacks Maajid Nawaz and Quilliam. The only people who are actively opposed to  Quillam and Maajid are far right racists and islamists.



    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #158 - March 18, 2015, 08:50 PM
    Oh, definitely not trying to say that they're not slimy and gross. But I was also slimy and gross. Grin

    Political agenda, perhaps not, but for a while there I had wrapped up my identity and bet some of my dignity and reputation on this thing, and if all of those extraneous factors had gone away, I think I would have gotten out of there so much earlier. So I don't know that it's any more flattering to say I didn't have a political agenda, but I did feel like I had a lot to protect and a lot to lose nevertheless, like these guys surely do.

    And although I can't think of anything specific, I have no doubt that I changed how and to what extent I defended taboos in Islam depending on if I was talking to Muslims or non-Muslims. On either side, there were rules and boundaries I tried to not go flying through, and I certainly was nothing like Maajid Nawaz, even though I think my true beliefs were very similar. I was not clever enough, not brave enough, not honest enough. It's tricky sometimes, you know?

    Although a lot of us have this ideal Islam device, it's not always identical from apologist to apologist. In mine, it was one of those silly all-punishments-are-just-deterrents-and-won't-happen sort of deals. I don't know much about this Abdullah guy, so I can't speak for him. He uses the same ideal state argument, but you think he'd be happy with a strict and stern sharia state when he's not being an apologist?
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #159 - March 18, 2015, 08:54 PM
    Quote
    He uses the same ideal state argument, but you think he'd be happy with a strict and stern sharia state when he's not being an apologist?

     

    Exactly. His use of no " this only happens in an ideal islamic state with all of the sharia conditions met" is just a convenient lie and a P.R. move.  I don't think he has any problem with a strict and stern sharia state.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #160 - March 18, 2015, 08:57 PM
    There is a sunni scholar in toronto called Shabir Ally. He's still a traditional muslim but when he argues that apostasy is not punishable in an islamic state you can see his sincerity in the way he talks about it and structures his arguments.


    That sincerity is not present with iERA islamists and that is why I believe they are lying and actually support strict stern sharia states.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #161 - March 18, 2015, 09:03 PM
    I see, you could very well be right, there are definitely people who quite like the more gruesome interpretations. It's funny to see that in an apologist, though. I'd be less surprised to see it in someone who runs off to join daesh than someone who seems to enjoy comfortable living in the West.

    Still, I think that if you and I had met a few years ago, you would call me on my intellectual dishonesty and reach the same conclusion about me. I'm glad we didn't cross paths until I sorted my shit out. Grin
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #162 - March 18, 2015, 09:13 PM
    Quote from: purelyatheist on March 18, 2015, 09:29 AM
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMFSfiseaJY

    :O

    This is shocking really. that this is seen as good


    And they all lived happily ever after. The End. Aawww. Roll Eyes

    That call for pity and assistance soon fell away rather quickly.
    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #163 - March 18, 2015, 10:01 PM
    Quote from: lua on March 18, 2015, 08:50 PM
    But I was also slimy and gross. Grin


    I don't believe it. You are being hard on yourself.

    I also used to make excuses for the horrible stuff - but I wasn't lying - I really believed that the horrible stuff just *couldn't* be horrible, because God was lovely and nice and merciful etc... so it was simply my *faulty* understanding.

    When you believe deeply in a god you think is all-merciful then your mind just wont accept the nasty things people are saying about your wonderful religion. They misunderstand it.

    "Islam the Misunderstood Religion!" - Gosh, how many times have I heard that - and said it myself!

    Yep... misunderstood by everyone... especially by Muslims lol...

    Allah knows best Wink
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #164 - March 18, 2015, 10:37 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 18, 2015, 10:01 PM
    ..........................
    "Islam the Misunderstood Religion!" - Gosh, how many times have I heard that -  myself!

    ...............


    Hmm .....hear one more time in CEMB.

    well I know you assalamualaikum from this peace tube

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XlvpGshhTrI

    I too apologize for all that misguided Muslims or brutal rogues do in the name of Islam  ... Now Mehadi You apologize to this..

    Quote
    Caravan raids

    1). Al-Is Caravan raid
    2). Abu Sufyan ibn Harb.
    3). Kharrar raid
    4). Waddan raid and invasion of Waddan
    5).Buwat caravan raid  Invasion of Buwat
    6). Nakhla raid by   Abdullah ibn Jahsh
    7). Zaid ibn Haritha raid on Abu al-Aas ibn al-Rabee,
    etc ..etc...etc raids and whole lot of expeditions and raids

    and  Mehadi  apologize to  all the raids of your prophet followers after his death .. at least first 100 years after his demise  here is the list...
    Quote
    33: Campaigns in Bahrain, Oman, Mahrah Yemen, and Hadramaut. Raids in Iraq. Battles of Kazima, Mazar, Walaja, Ulleis, Hirah, Anbar, Ein at tamr, Daumatul Jandal and Firaz.
    634: Battles of Basra, Damascus and Ajnadin. Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph. Battles of Namaraq and Saqatia.
    635: Battle of Bridge. Battle of Buwaib. Conquest of Damascus. Battle of Fahl.
    636: Battle of Yermuk. Battle of Qadsiyia. Conquest of Madain.
    637: Conquest of Syria. Fall of Jerusalem. Battle of Jalula.
    638: Conquest of Jazirah.
    639: Conquest of Khuizistan. Advance into Egypt.
    640: Capture of the post of Caesaria in Syria. Conquest of Shustar and Jande Sabur in Persia. Battle of Babylon in Egypt.
    641: Battle of Nihawand. Conquest Of Alexandria in Egypt.
    642: Battle of Rayy in Persia. Conquest of Egypt. Foundation of Fustat.
    643: Conquest of Azarbaijan and Tabaristan (Russia).
    644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan.[/u] Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
    645: Campaigns in Fats.
    646: Campaigns in Khurasan, Armeain and Asia Minor.
    647: Campaigns in North Africa. Conquest of the island of Cypress.



    So you foolish Mehadi Hassan.. if you go on apologizing for what Muslim warlords and Muslim criminal did in the history of Islam.. you will be apologizing until your death..

    So stop apologizing but change the complete NARRATION OF ISLAM  and it should start with "that there was No Muhammad of hadith in Islam"., Muhammad of Quran was nothing but stories of Moses and Jesus  and Muhammad of Hadith is complete bullshit.  So Prophet of Islam Muhammad of Quran was a peaceful guy ..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #165 - March 18, 2015, 11:01 PM
    So god cannot be a very good author if everyone seems to misunderstand his writings. If that is the case, then what is the point in following it?

    Is Mehdi Hasan suggesting that the quran is the most peaceful book in the world but is also the most easily misinterpreted as violent and hateful?

    Not much use then is it?
    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #166 - March 19, 2015, 01:32 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 18, 2015, 10:01 PM
    I don't believe it. You are being hard on yourself.

    I also used to make excuses for the horrible stuff - but I wasn't lying - I really believed that the horrible stuff just *couldn't* be horrible, because God was lovely and nice and merciful etc... so it was simply my *faulty* understanding.

    When you believe deeply in a god you think is all-merciful then your mind just wont accept the nasty things people are saying about your wonderful religion. They misunderstand it.

    "Islam the Misunderstood Religion!" - Gosh, how many times have I heard that - and said it myself!

    Yep... misunderstood by everyone... especially by Muslims lol...

    Allah knows best Wink


    Thank you, you're kind, but to be honest, I think I spent more time trying to convince myself that I believed than I did actually believing. It would be nice to say that it was for the love of God that I became an apologist, but I don't think that's true, it was just something that started out small and escalated, and then it was hard to get out of. But I only cringe a little when I look back now, and I am glad I came to my senses, and I hope over time I'll kind of counteract any damage I might've done back then.

    Yes, misunderstood by Muslims the most, I remember saying this, too, and always getting, "You think millions of Muslims over hundreds of years are wrong, but you--who are you? You are right?" Grin Maybe you got this, too? I guess in the end that wound up being kind of the heart of the problem. Oh, well.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #167 - March 19, 2015, 04:50 PM
    Quote
    "You think millions of Muslims over hundreds of years are wrong, but you--who are you? You are right?"

     

    That's kind of the killer response to the people who advocate for progressive interpretations of islam. 

    Maajid Nawaz has found a very clever way around this by insisting that there is no one true interpretation of the Quran and that spirituality is a personal thing not an ideology to be propagated.

    This already makes him a kafir according to most muslims but using the muslim label allows him to influence just enough muslims to be able to start reform and change among the community.

    Maajid is one exceptionally clever individual. That strategy would have never even occurred to me.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #168 - March 19, 2015, 05:18 PM
    My only thing with that is self-honesty. I’m certainly not making takfir on Majid, so I have to assume that he also still believes in something that is allowing him to still maintain the Muslim label. I don’t think I could have the same respect for him if he did not actually believe in something that, at least in his mind, makes him a Muslim. If calling himself a Muslim is simply a strategy, then I don’t think it will work.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #169 - March 19, 2015, 05:45 PM
    Quote from: TheDarkRebel on March 18, 2015, 08:54 PM


    Exactly. His use of no " this only happens in an ideal islamic state with all of the sharia conditions met" is just a convenient lie and a P.R. move.  I don't think he has any problem with a strict and stern sharia state.




    Its bad PR since he is still saying it would be legal in an Islamic state. Hence he supports the view, he can just not see it put into action since he does not live in such a state.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #170 - March 19, 2015, 05:54 PM
    Quote from: TheDarkRebel on March 19, 2015, 04:50 PM


    That's kind of the killer response to the people who advocate for progressive interpretations of islam. 

    Maajid Nawaz has found a very clever way around this by insisting that there is no one true interpretation of the Quran and that spirituality is a personal thing not an ideology to be propagated.

    This already makes him a kafir according to most muslims but using the muslim label allows him to influence just enough muslims to be able to start reform and change among the community.

    Maajid is one exceptionally clever individual. That strategy would have never even occurred to me.



    Its not a new idea, it was lifted by various forms of Christianity which split from the Catholic Church. Protestantism started out as a break from the institution based ideology of the Catholic along with it's double-standards. The idea has worked before and will do so again. I believe Muslims which are living away from the structured ideology based version sof Islam common in Muslim nations already have broken away from the "heartland" of Islam and it's ideas. The worse these nations act the further separate populations will diverge from these these ideologies.

    Heck Muslim Spain is a good example of a group of Muslims separated by a distance which broke away from the ME centers and ideas of Islam. The "West", in my opinion, is the new Muslim Spain. It provides an environment in which dissenting opinions can be expressed under the protection of law and without fear of criminal laws such as those in Iran or KSA.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #171 - March 19, 2015, 06:29 PM
    Quote from: happymurtad on March 19, 2015, 05:18 PM
    I have to assume that he also still believes in something that is allowing him to still maintain the Muslim label. I don’t think I could have the same respect for him if he did not actually believe in something that, at least in his mind, makes him a Muslim. If calling himself a Muslim is simply a strategy, then I don’t think it will work.

     

    Well Maajid has dropped a very subtle hint that he is actually a non believer during a question and answer session.

    Which is what makes me think he is not actually a muslim but it hasn't really diminished my respect for him because he is still doing a ton of great work.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #172 - March 19, 2015, 06:35 PM
    No-one bats an eye-lid at non-practising Christians who hold personal beliefs that contradict the church. Christians who doubt Jesus even existed or think the Bible is nonsense. Yet they go to church, and practice charity and any of the nice things they selevtively choose to. Heck there are openly athiest/agnostic priests!

    Yet there is so much opposition to Muslims doing the same - even from us here!

    Why can't Majid Nawaz hold beliefs that completely contradict 'traditional' Islam?

    Good for him!

    And no…  I don't think he's a hypocrite or practising 'taqiya' or in some way sinister.

    Maybe he simply feels more comfortable identifying as a Muslim and refuses to stand aside for the fuckwits.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #173 - March 19, 2015, 06:41 PM
    This is Maajid answering questions from people on reddit.  One redditor asks him what parts of islam he still adheres to and this is how he responds.


    I think this means he is a closeted atheist. I believe he is holding on to the muslim label to be able to promote reform within the muslim community.

    It's not possible to do that if you declare yourself an atheist.

    Choosing to hid your spiritual beleifs is a tough thing to do but he is doing it for a good cause.
    Attached image is missing * Capture.PNG (22.46 KB, 988x277 - viewed 355 times.)
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #174 - March 19, 2015, 06:57 PM
    Literalism has died out in Christianity for the most part, even in groups such as Catholics with certain topics. There is also an emphasis on personal experience rather than scripture. With moderate Muslims I often still see literalism with the practical application and interpretation as the difference. The Quran is a book from God. The Bible is a book about God. This allows the spiritual component to break away from strict scripture. I believe this view is lacking even with moderates. The topics made about gay Muslims, imams and Mosques are moderates to me. Merely tolerating the LGTB community is not being a moderate, it is just being a tolerant fundamentalist. I do not know Maajid as well so I picked examples from CEMB.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #175 - March 19, 2015, 07:04 PM
    Quote from: TheDarkRebel on March 19, 2015, 06:41 PM
    This is Maajid answering questions from people on reddit.  One redditor asks him what parts of islam he still adheres to and this is how he responds.

    I think this means he is a closeted atheist. I believe he is holding on to the muslim label to be able to promote reform within the muslim community.

    It's not possible to do that if you declare yourself an atheist.

    Choosing to hid your spiritual beleifs is a tough thing to do but he is doing it for a good cause.



    Sounds quite Sufi to me. I think I have made a similar reply, using Rumi.

    Anyway it's up to him what he believes or doesn't believe and how he wishes to identify himself.

    I personally identify myself as a Muslim these days even though I reject fundamental tenets of belief. I have many personal reasons for that, but amongst them is that Islam has been such a huge part of my life that I feel quite comfortable expressing my self as a doubting/Agnostic Muslim than as an outright Atheist - or through any other form of spiritual path.

    I have tried casting it all off. But it's not that easy to create a new identity after 55 years! For now, at least - I find it convenient and comfortable to identify as a Muslim - albeit one who rejects fundamental traditional beliefs - and who critiques Islam & religion. If the world was a different place right now and my situation was different perhaps I would be content to identify as an Atheist. But my situation is as it is and I am at the place I am.

    And if I may quote what an Ex-Muslim friend of mine - who has also reached this position - said:

    "Identity is not a binary. It's not a switch that you turn on or off. Identity is complex. Being a Muslim is a cultural identifier just as much as it's a religious label. You can be Muslim while not religious. And you can negotiate what parts of that you want to adhere to."
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #176 - March 19, 2015, 07:25 PM
    I understand Hassan. I still identify myself as a cultural Christian. It is impossible to break away from these types of molds especially in a daily environment be it family, friends, local or all of the former.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #177 - March 19, 2015, 07:31 PM
    And thank God for cultural Christians - they're the best type of Christians  Afro
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #178 - March 19, 2015, 08:10 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 19, 2015, 06:35 PM
    No-one bats an eye-lid at non-practising Christians who hold personal beliefs that contradict the church. Christians who doubt Jesus even existed or think the Bible is nonsense. Yet they go to church, and practice charity and any of the nice things they selevtively choose to. Heck there are openly athiest/agnostic priests!

    Yet there is so much opposition to Muslims doing the same - even from us here!

    Why can't Majid Nawaz hold beliefs that completely contradict 'traditional' Islam? Good for him!

    And no…  I don't think he's a hypocrite or practising 'taqiya' or in some way sinister.

    Maybe he simply feels more comfortable identifying as a Muslim and refuses to stand aside for the fuckwits.



    I completely agree that he can and should. I also think that he is totally justified in maintaining the label “Muslim.” My only concern would be that if he is only doing it as a strategy, then I don’t think it will work. You, Hassan, for example, have reached a point in your life where you are comfortable accepting the label “Muslim,” in some fashion, from within your own self. You are following what is right for you. If, however, you were at a point of internally knowing you wanted nothing to do with the label within yourself, but used it only as a strategy to change others, then I’d suspect that strategy would fail.

    I’m personally also at a strange point of figuring out what elements of my Islamic past are still relevant to me. I’m reconciling what I believe now with the dynamic facets of my personality. I’m not quite at the point of calling myself any sort of Muslim, but I find that there are elements of that background that are so engrained in me that I actually get more peace from just accepting them.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #179 - March 19, 2015, 08:16 PM
    Absolutely - I agree! One must be true to oneself - and to others. But it's not always easy to work out exactly where you are or who you are - particularly after such a roller-coaster ride as many of us here have been on.  Smiley
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