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 Topic: The Big Questions debate on apostates

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  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #180 - March 19, 2015, 09:42 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 19, 2015, 06:35 PM
    No-one bats an eye-lid at non-practising Christians who hold personal beliefs that contradict the church. Christians who doubt Jesus even existed or think the Bible is nonsense. Yet they go to church, and practice charity and any of the nice things they selevtively choose to. Heck there are openly athiest/agnostic priests!

    Yet there is so much opposition to Muslims doing the same - even from us here!

    Why can't Majid Nawaz hold beliefs that completely contradict 'traditional' Islam?

    Good for him!

    And no…  I don't think he's a hypocrite or practising 'taqiya' or in some way sinister.

    Maybe he simply feels more comfortable identifying as a Muslim and refuses to stand aside for the fuckwits.



    When in a conversation with a Christian on religious issues I DO bring up the inconsistencies in their position.

    I would say that any nominal Christian who doesn't believe Jesus existed and thinks the bible is nonsense, then by what definition is he a Christian? His/Her position would be at best tenuous and somewhat disingenuous. So I would point it out. Surely that is what polite discourse is all about?

    I hold integrity in high regard.
    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #181 - March 19, 2015, 09:43 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 19, 2015, 07:31 PM
    And thank God for cultural Christians - they're the best type of Christians  Afro


    DON'T thank god, thank secularism!  Afro
    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #182 - March 19, 2015, 09:52 PM
    Quote from: Adey5 on March 19, 2015, 09:42 PM
    When in a conversation with a Christian on religious issues I DO bring up the inconsistencies in their position.

    I would say that any nominal Christian who doesn't believe Jesus existed and thinks the bible is nonsense, then by what definition is he a Christian? His/Her position would be at best tenuous and somewhat disingenuous. So I would point it out. Surely that is what polite discourse is all about?

    I hold integrity in high regard.


    I don't think it's fair to accuse people who identify with a particular myth - even though they know they're myths - as lacking integrity.

    People are different - some find comfort in myths. While others seem hard wired to be atheists - people like Dawkins for example  grin12

    I don't see one as having more or less integrity than the other.

    It's like some people have more empathy than others.

    Some people have more paternal/maternal instincts than others.

    etc...

    It's not a question of who has more integrity - but the way biology and environment have shaped us slightly differently.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #183 - March 19, 2015, 10:24 PM
    Quote
    People are different - some find comfort in myths

     

    I also find comfort in myths as I am a huge fan of fantasy fiction. The difference is I know the myths I like are man made stories and the religious people assert that their myths are fact.

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #184 - March 19, 2015, 10:32 PM
    Quote from: TheDarkRebel on March 19, 2015, 10:24 PM


    I also find comfort in myths as I am a huge fan of fantasy fiction. The difference is I know the myths I like are man made stories and the religious people assert that their myths are fact.


    If you read the last few posts I am specifically talking about people who know they are not fact. Like myself and I suspect Majid Nawaz for example. Or Christians who don't believe in the Bible or any of the myths in it.

    Keep up tdr Wink
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #185 - March 19, 2015, 11:22 PM
    ^
    Indeed, I'm not sure what I consider myself anymore, I think I'll start with the word human and work my way out from there.
    As for Maajid, well I've heard him get around the trickier stuff in the scripture by claiming he's not a literalist, presumably he interpretes the 'holy' texts in a more metaphorical sense, which is something you're no doubt, not allowed do under traditional teachings. However as you dudes have already made the point before me, now of days some of us are beginning to feel, we can interperate text or identify ourselves in whichever way feels like the best fit. Smiley
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #186 - March 20, 2015, 12:21 AM
    Quote from: suki on March 18, 2015, 05:36 PM

    I missed that linked post from yesterday, that's what i was attempting to say but failed, you've explained it much better.

    X

    Not only you missing the post but now I am missing all the important questions and problems in this thread   suki.,...  Let me frame some important questions here..

    So
    Quote from: Hassan on March 19, 2015, 06:35 PM
    No-one bats an eye-lid at non-practising Christians who hold personal beliefs that contradict the church. Christians who doubt Jesus even existed or think the Bible is nonsense. Yet they go to church, and practice charity and any of the nice things they selevtively choose to. Heck there are openly athiest/agnostic priests!

    Yet there is so much opposition to Muslims doing the same - even from us here!

    Huh! who are those "US" in that Hassan's post suki?

    are they from US??  US  of A?? ..

    US is filled with bad people  finmad  unlike London people.. So suki are you from US of A??   and there are more questions on that..

    and why is that NO ONE GIVES A BAT SHIT, when a non-practicing Christians who hold personal beliefs that contradict the church, bible preacher, OT NT At&t   it is OK  but that is not possible in Islam?

    and why is that NO ONE GIVES A  CHICKEN  SHIT  when Christians  questions Jesus existence or think the Bible is nonsense  yet they can go to church and do  all yadi....yadi ....  stuff and it is OK   but that is not possible in Islam?

    why? I ask you why suki??
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #187 - March 20, 2015, 12:25 AM
    Quote from: lua on March 19, 2015, 01:32 PM
    Thank you, you're kind, but to be honest, I think I spent more time trying to convince myself that I believed than I did actually believing.............

    Hmmm., Spending more time trying to to convince yourself?? contradict yourself??

    That means there was always a doubt in your mind. This internal struggle of "one part of brain accusing other past "YOU ARE DIRTY KUFFAR"  and Other part of brain saying "No I am good person and good believer"  is not good  for health lua...

     So you  are playing taqiya with Momin and acting like a Allah believer in presence  of other believers of Allah??

    lua you are a dangerous person.... danger  to Islam...
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #188 - March 20, 2015, 12:39 AM
     Cheesy ash-hadu anna Yeezevee rasoolullah.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #189 - March 20, 2015, 12:46 AM
    Quote from: happymurtad on March 20, 2015, 12:39 AM
    Cheesy ash-hadu anna Yeezevee rasoolullah.

    Am I glad to read that .. HappyM thank you ., if I were you I would have said..

    ":ass-hadu anna Yeezevee rascallullah"   Cheesy
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #190 - March 20, 2015, 01:41 AM
    Quote from: TheDarkRebel on March 19, 2015, 04:50 PM


    That's kind of the killer response to the people who advocate for progressive interpretations of islam.



    Actually, at the time I didn't find that to be such an impressive response, and I usually just had to point to a bunch of unrelated examples where "the majority" had believed x in the past and it turned out to be y, or that if sheer numbers of people believing something made it true, we ought to pack up and jump over to Christianity, so on and so forth. Also, there's some hadith I'd like to use here and there, and a verse in the Quran cautioning against following the majority on Earth, blah blah blah. It wasn't that tough, just an annoying barrier we had to break down before we kept going on.

    But the funny thing is how significant it became in retrospect. I still would reject the idea that the majority dictates the truth of something, but this question kind of became the crux of all my current issues with Islam. I can say whatever I think Islam is, and that's fine. Maajid Nawaz can say whatever he thinks it is, and just from reading the comments on this thread, it sounds precisely like junk I was saying in the day, and that's also fine.

    But at the end of the day, the truth is that he and I is/was walking against the current. Doable, but tough, and at a certain point you and anyone with intellectual honesty must admit to themselves to some degree that this isn't the direction you were meant to be going. The obvious interpretation of Islam is, unfortunately, the nastier one.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #191 - March 20, 2015, 01:47 AM
    Cheesy Cheesy I don't know what to say, Yeez.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #192 - March 20, 2015, 02:33 AM
    Quote
    The obvious interpretation of Islam is, unfortunately, the nastier one.


    Or, the nasty bits could just be another twist to Allah's sinister little test, to see who actually uses them to excuse what are obviously evil deeds. He does say that many people are misled by the Quran. Entrapment?
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #193 - March 20, 2015, 02:36 AM
    Quote from: yeezevee on March 20, 2015, 12:21 AM
    Not only you missing the post but now I am missing all the important questions and problems in this thread   suki.,...  Let me frame some important questions here..

    So Huh! who are those "US" in that Hassan's post suki?

    are they from US??  US  of A?? ..

    US is filled with bad people  finmad  unlike London people.. So suki are you from US of A??   and there are more questions on that..

    and why is that NO ONE GIVES A BAT SHIT, when a non-practicing Christians who hold personal beliefs that contradict the church, bible preacher, OT NT At&t   it is OK  but that is not possible in Islam?

    and why is that NO ONE GIVES A  CHICKEN  SHIT  when Christians  questions Jesus existence or think the Bible is nonsense  yet they can go to church and do  all yadi....yadi ....  stuff and it is OK   but that is not possible in Islam?

    why? I ask you why suki??


    naw, i'm from the land of the united kingdoms,  i will mull over your questions tommorow after i've had a sleep, got to get up early to watch the eclipse of the sun :  )

    x
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #194 - March 20, 2015, 02:56 AM
    Quote from: happymurtad on March 20, 2015, 02:33 AM
    Or, the nasty bits could just be another twist to Allah's sinister little test, to see who actually uses them to excuse what are obviously evil deeds. He does say that many people are misled by the Quran. Entrapment?


    Grin A fucking evil genius, the best of planners.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #195 - March 20, 2015, 08:43 AM
    Quote from: happymurtad on March 20, 2015, 02:33 AM
    Or, the nasty bits could just be another twist to Allah's sinister little test, to see who actually uses them to excuse what are obviously evil deeds. He does say that many people are misled by the Quran. Entrapment?


    Haha...  Cheesy

    Well based on Allah's record, this certainly can't be discounted hehe  Afro
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #196 - March 20, 2015, 03:32 PM
    There have been people trying to do what Maajid Nawaz has been doing for about 10-15 years. The usual result is that they get admirers among critics of Islam, and almost none within the muslim community. I do think that muslim communities in the West in the 90s and forward broke with tradition, they've done so incrementally and in an asymmetrical way.Anyone who saw Andalusis doublespeak would understand that he wouldn't be able to convince the audience...well it's the same thing with Maajid Nawaz among people who believe in Islam.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #197 - March 20, 2015, 03:52 PM
    I think we're at the beginning of a more opportune time for these interpretations, though.

    There's an increasing number of Western-raised Muslims and converts and so on who are generally going to be more open-minded and less susceptible to fear-mongering and demonizing of alternate lifestyles, and in the information and technology age, I believe all strict religious interpretations are going to be backed into a corner to some degree. I think the coming years will be more promising for liberal Muslims who seek to actually have a strong influence on modern Islam than the last ten or so were.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #198 - March 20, 2015, 03:59 PM
    How many people have the ability to handle contradictions that arises when interpreting religious text in modern light without gradual incremental steps?Without resorting to loopholes,technicalities and legal tricks called an ideal Islamic state or ideal conditions.
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #199 - March 20, 2015, 04:00 PM
    I think that's why Quranism was a lot of apostates' last stop on the way out, so to speak. Grin
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #200 - March 20, 2015, 04:11 PM
    Quranism is an example of a brand of Islam that started in the West. It could've done better had it started much earlier and Rashad Khalifa not declared himself a prophet...though some of the problems would remain, it would be very different without the hadith baggage.

    Did you know that Rashad Khalifa was close Ahmed Deedat?
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #201 - March 20, 2015, 04:27 PM
    The vast majority of the reformist and progressive muslims are quranists.  It's easier to be a progressive if you chuck out all the nasty hadiths and fiqs.

    The nasty stuff in the quran can just be waved away as metaphor or explained in terms of "historical context ".   

    It's pretty easy to create liberal interpretations of the religion but you still would be left with the problem of not having any evidence for the truth claims of the religion.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #202 - March 20, 2015, 04:31 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 19, 2015, 07:04 PM
    Sounds quite Sufi to me. I think I have made a similar reply, using Rumi.

     

    Exactly ! and you're an agnostic  grin12

    I read part of Omar Khayyam's rubayat in english and alot of the verses seemed to hinting towards an atheistic view of life. Stuff along the lines you only get one life so enjoy it  and forget about the mullahs.

    I still think Maajid Nawaz's claims to the religion are a political strategy and not genuine belief.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #203 - March 20, 2015, 09:38 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 19, 2015, 09:52 PM
    I don't think it's fair to accuse people who identify with a particular myth - even though they know they're myths - as lacking integrity.



     

    For what it's worth even Dawkins has descrbed himself as a cultural Christian on a few occasions. By that he meant he enjoys christian hymns.
    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #204 - March 20, 2015, 09:48 PM
    I could never identify as a cultural muslim.  I'd much rather identify as a south asian Canadian since those two cultures have had a lasting impact on my life. The same can't really be said about Islam. I'll eventually put it behind me and move on with my life. "Muslim" will just be a certain phase that I went through early on in my life. Nothing more.

    I think leaving islam gives me an opportunity to engage with my native culture that I couldn't do as a practicing muslim. ( for example music is haram).

    After becoming an apostate I can enjoy indian music, fix up my urdu and read some classical pakistani poets instead of reading the quran, enjoy south asian art etc. 

    I've also heard this from other ex muslims as well. After they leave islam they develop an interest in their native culture that they didn't have as a muslim. Perhaps because fundamentalist islam tries to erase diversity by prohibiting significant aspects of people's cultures such as music, dance and clothing.



    On a related note
    In my experience alot of devout Pakistani muslims have a deep seated prejuidice against indians and hindus which leads them to hate their own cultural identity since they want nothing to do with them. This results in them becoming a type of "wannabe arabs".

    In my opinion a life without curiosity is not a life worth living
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #205 - March 20, 2015, 10:28 PM
    Quote from: TheDarkRebel on March 20, 2015, 09:48 PM
    On a related note
    In my experience alot of devout Pakistani muslims have a deep seated prejuidice against indians and hindus which leads them to hate their own cultural identity since they want nothing to do with them. This results in them becoming a type of "wannabe arabs".

    These are the same lot who brag that their ancestry is Arab, Afghan, Persian, Turkish, etc. Roll Eyes
    "Life is not a matter of holding good cards, but of playing a poor hand well."
    - Robert Louis Stevenson
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #206 - March 20, 2015, 11:43 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on March 19, 2015, 09:52 PM
    I don't think it's fair to accuse people who identify with a particular myth - even though they know they're myths - as lacking integrity.

    People are different - some find comfort in myths. While others seem hard wired to be atheists - people like Dawkins for example  grin12

    I don't see one as having more or less integrity than the other.

    It's like some people have more empathy than others.

    Some people have more paternal/maternal instincts than others.

    etc...

    It's not a question of who has more integrity - but the way biology and environment have shaped us slightly differently.


    OK Yes,  integrity was a bad choice of word and I by no means think that religious people do not have integrity, many have more than I do. Perhaps consistency is a better word. I myself may not be fully consistent in everything I do, but it is a position to strive for, even if I never quite get there.

    Aim for the stars and you will reach the clouds.

    My (admittedly simplistic) point was that in some theological structures, Christians for example preach "Love thy neighbour"  Afro, but elsewhere in the scripture, it may say "If somebody encourage you to follow another religion, he shall be surely put to death". 

    These are the inconsistencies within the philosophy (not necessarily a lack of integrity in the individual) and the holding of contradictory views simultaneously that I mean. Few here would say that religions are consistent.
    I am better than your god......and so are you.

    "Is the man who buys a magic rock, really more gullible than the man who buys an invisible magic rock?.......,...... At least the first guy has a rock!"
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #207 - March 20, 2015, 11:52 PM
    Quote from: TheDarkRebel on March 20, 2015, 04:27 PM
    It's pretty easy to create liberal interpretations of the religion but you still would be left with the problem of not having any evidence for the truth claims of the religion.


    Yeah, and that way isn't for me, but if someone else believes in a peaceful and liberal interpretation of a religion, it's not something I'd necessarily want them to change. I'll just think this particular belief of theirs is silly, like I do with people who insist that colds are caused by cold weather, or people who think pineapple doesn't taste like garbage. People believe all sorts of things, and as long as it's not hurting anybody, I'll try not to argue.

     
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #208 - March 21, 2015, 08:00 AM
    Quote from: Adey5 on March 20, 2015, 11:43 PM
    OK Yes,  integrity was a bad choice of word and I by no means think that religious people do not have integrity, many have more than I do. Perhaps consistency is a better word. I myself may not be fully consistent in everything I do, but it is a position to strive for, even if I never quite get there.

    Aim for the stars and you will reach the clouds.

    My (admittedly simplistic) point was that in some theological structures, Christians for example preach "Love thy neighbour"  Afro, but elsewhere in the scripture, it may say "If somebody encourage you to follow another religion, he shall be surely put to death". 

    These are the inconsistencies within the philosophy (not necessarily a lack of integrity in the individual) and the holding of contradictory views simultaneously that I mean. Few here would say that religions are consistent.


    Got ya!   Afro
  • The Big Questions debate on apostates
     Reply #209 - March 21, 2015, 11:08 AM
    Quote from: Adey5 on March 20, 2015, 11:43 PM
    ..............

    My (admittedly simplistic) point was that in some theological structures, Christians for example preach "Love thy neighbour"  Afro, but elsewhere in the scripture, it may say "If somebody encourage you to follow another religion, he shall be surely put to death". 

    ..............

    Hello Adey5.. when you Quote something from some scriptures., it is vital to give Original quote and its link..   let me throw some links here

    Does God Approve of Slavery According to the Bible?
    Cruelty and Violence in the Bible
    Murder in the Bible
    Evil in the bible

    But as long as the followers of a faith do not consider such books are word of god voodoo doll  and they are the books of their times .. IT IS OK WITH ME ..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
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