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Theme Changer

 Topic: About calls for reforming Islam

 (Read 9975 times)
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     OP - March 24, 2015, 10:54 PM

    Is it a good or bad idea for critics of Islam and people or individuals who really aren't convincing as muslims to muslims to call for reform? I mean, it creates a sense of alertness among those who wouldn't want any change and would make it difficult to transform arguments that are caused by cognitive dissonance, due to exposure to liberal West or something else, to real arguments for liberal form of Islam. You can almost summarize what they'll say/are saying:They neutered Christianity and now they want to neuter Islam.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #1 - March 25, 2015, 08:56 AM

    I am not sure what you exactly meant, reforming Islam? I am for reforming Islam and for Muslims to change doctrines that does not fit like death to apostate. This will be a very tough path. I don't think that is good long-term strategy. Muslims would have to accept that the Quran contain violent verses and also practices of Islam am such as stoning of gays and adulterers. It is important for them to see clear it is and not just say "it is out context" and go around cherry picking. For reforming to work it requires honesty that Islam is very imperfect which is so contrary to the claim in Islam where it said it is to be a perfect religion for all times and Quran must be hold on to hard as slipping away from it is sign of times of going bad You know about the prophet saying where Islam getting fewer and people practicing it would be seen as strange.

    There is too many obstacle to tackle through which makes reforming Islam extremely hard. As the Quran want us to believe it entirely and not pick and choose. Its a huge dilemma. What I fear about reforming is people would try to reinterpret text saying the context is not violent and such and going into the conclusion Islam is "perfect". Reinterpretation of text having been going on with the more so called "moderate" Muslim. I just think it is dishonest and would not help in the long-term.

    So reform or not? Tough to say, if it is done in an honest way it could work but I doubt so.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #2 - March 25, 2015, 11:44 AM

    I am not sure what you exactly meant, reforming Islam? I am for reforming Islam

     ................

    So reform or not? Tough to say, if it is done in an honest way it could work but I doubt so.

    hello Closet.,  my goodness gracious you write well.   That question I asked over a 1000 times in many online forums  as well as in discussions at dinner table. I STILL DO NOT HAVE AN ANSWER..

    And now after 15 years of reading Quran reading hadith, reading Islamic history  and reading enchiladas of other religions,  I tell you this  those educated Muslim folks  who read Quran, Hadith and who  judge Islam independent of their background and try to reform Islam have ended up like this UNAPOLOGETIC PERSON who shouts at Muslims. That is worst case.

    The best case is,  some folks may end up like this guy who tries his best to poke holes in Islam and yet  tells every one that he is A-- Muslim.  I don't know what the hell it means.

    Now there is another case and this  third type has very large number Muslim folks. They don't care what is there in Quran, they don't care who was/were Prophet/s  of Islam, who actually they were and  what he/they did(they only know names). They just don't care. They are just   cultural Muslims.  That means they know very little about Islam and they don't want know  except Islamic festivals. May be they may donate some money to those RASCALS who make money and   control  Islam out of those two mosques in sand land.   And some times they may  support so-called Islamic causes such as  going against Israel or some other countries that have large Muslim Population.   

    So that question of your's.,  I am not sure what you exactly meant reforming Islam? is very difficult to answer.  In fact see all these links

    Quote
    Egypt's Leader, an Ambitious Call for  Reform in Islam_JAN. 8, 2015
    Top Cleric Calls Reform in Muslim World
    Manifesto for a modern Islam
    radical reform of Islamic teaching

    So we have zillion people saying that .. But I don't know the answer and I am searching for answer. So here are my suggestions to reform Islam ..

    1) One way is THROWING AWAY COMPLETE HADITH  out of Islam and checking out some verses saying "that these verses were added in to Quran by ROGUES OF ISLAM after the death Prophet of Islam" (that goat ate Quran verses excuse)

    2)  second  way is  completely reinterpreting Quran. in fact re-translation or even modification of Quarn is needed., That is what My friend Mughal try to do

    Quote


    What Mughal did was wonderful, completely  RE-CODING Quran. So reforming Islam and Muslims is possible if we put his translation in to action with a billion Muslim folks.   That is possible but now in the present times, If he tells that in a Mosque about that Quran,  he will be da..da...da...

    The another policy often Politicians of Non-Islamic nations use is  that DADT policy for the sake of elections.. Well that is not going to work. In fact it will lead to deadly conflicts across the globe.

    So the problem continues dear Closet and my suggestion is,   YOU SHOULD STAY IN CLOSET for some more time. Now you tell me, you say " if it is done in an honest way it could work"

    So what does it mean? what is honest way and how do you proceed doing it?

    And in your view which is easier? Reforming Islam or reforming Muslim folks?

    with best wishes
    yeezevee  

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #3 - March 25, 2015, 01:10 PM

    I think agendas like " reforming Islam " are probably only attacking symptoms.

    Us humans are not doing well. We are probably on course for uncontrolled and chaotic climate change, the sixth extinction is well under way, we have societies created and run in the interests of the hyper rich who do not care at all about the needs of we the people.

    Some groups are using old techniques of violence and horror "terror"ism.

    Isn't it more an issue of us learning to cooperate with each other and this planet?

    Learning new lessons rather than focussing on old stories in holy books?


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #4 - March 25, 2015, 01:15 PM

    Everyone has their ancestral stories - mine include Arthur , Jesus is alleged to have been at Glastonbury - not sure what band he saw - everyone needs to know their own stories - Mohammed in Indonesia for example....

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #5 - March 25, 2015, 10:07 PM

    I dont understand how people can make the choice to make drastic new interpretations, if they aren't convinced that it is the correct interpretation in the first place.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #6 - March 25, 2015, 10:19 PM

    I believe that it's a complete waste of time to try to reform Islam. You'll get a bunch of cherry pickers that'll claim that Islam is peace, that's the best result.
    The best thing we can do is to teach science , logic and reason to muslims, it worked for me.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #7 - March 25, 2015, 10:23 PM

    Is it a good or bad idea for critics of Islam and people or individuals who really aren't convincing as muslims to muslims to call for reform?


    It's a good idea.

    The ones who say they are not 'real' Muslims are the judgmental pricks who are the whole problem. Why should we give a flying fuck what they think?

    The ones who don't judge are themselves seeking for a more flexible Islam, though generally keep silent and are bullied by the loudmouthed judgmental pricks. It is these Muslims who are looking for reform that badly need voices like Majid's.

    Besides who is to judge who is a real Muslim?

    If Majid Nawaz feels comfortable identifying as a Muslim why the fuck do we keep having to sneer at him - just as Anjem Choudhary does?

    He was born to a Muslim Asian family - he became very active with an Islamic group and spent a great deal of his life within the Muslim community. His views have changed - fine - but he still obviously feels Islam is very much part of his identity and wants to spread his views and opinions amongst his fellow Muslims for a more liberal view of Islam.

    Why the fuck do we - of all people - seem to have such an issue with that?

    Are we the Aqeeda police or something?

    /rant over  grin12

  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #8 - March 25, 2015, 10:42 PM

    You can almost summarize what they'll say/are saying: They neutered Christianity and now they want to neuter Islam.


    If they mean by "neutered" being removed from the public sphere so it can't interfere with government or impose laws, punishments etc... then yes and a thousand times yes!!

    And Christianity has been all the better for it.

    Billions of Christians still enjoy praying, going to church, charity events, and the spiritual comfort it gives them.

    Why the hell can't some Muslims strive for that??

    Not for you? Fine - no problem.

    ButI'd like to think that if we don't want to support them we could at least not jeer from the sidelines.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #9 - March 25, 2015, 11:24 PM

    I think reform has to come from a place of real fervor, not a pragmatic watering-down.  So I'm not sure that there's much of a role for non-believers to play in the reform process. 

    Martin Luther, for example, was far more religiously ardent than almost any of the Catholic establishment he was protesting.  That's why he protested -- he felt so intensely that the Catholic church had become an abomination that had deviated from the truth of the Bible.  The positive aspects of the Reformation came from that kind of consuming religious conviction and intensity, not sort of a pragmatic mellowing out.

    I suspect that Islamic reform would come from a similar place of religious intensity.  But I, as a non-believer, have no real idea what it would be.  I think that some things like the modern Muslim rejection of slavery as un-Islamic are good examples of parts of what such a reformation movement would look like --- grass roots, rejecting traditional scholarship, taking great liberties with the texts, not being consistent in how you cherry pick.  A sort of populist pious movement.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #10 - March 25, 2015, 11:39 PM

    grass roots, rejecting traditional scholarship, taking great liberties with the texts, not being consistent in how you cherry pick.  A sort of populist pious movement.


    I agree with the above but I am not sure we want a Muslim Martin Luther. There are some fundamental differences between the Christian and Islamic religions and history.

    I've been down the reform road and was quite passionate about it - but ultimately you are handicapping yourself.

    I think there needs to be a complete change of course - and I don't see why non-practicing liberal-minded, agnostic or even atheist Muslims who nevertheless still feel that the Muslim identity means something to them - should not have a say in this.

    In fact I think they must.

    I have got to know a great many "ex-Muslim Muslims" if you know what I mean and I see far more passion, honesty and sincerity in them than in those trying to reform Islam from within the traditional Islamic paradigm. For me these people are either deluding themselves or will never change anything because they have accepted the rules of the game. They are in a straight-jacket.

  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #11 - March 25, 2015, 11:42 PM

    I think reform has to come from a place of real fervor, ...............

    Martin Luther, for example, was far more religiously ardent than almost any of the Catholic establishment he was protesting. .........

    I suspect that Islamic reform would come from a similar place of religious intensity.........

    Let us analyze those points Zaotar . What kind of reforms are we looking for?

    let us look in to the difference between Catholics and Protestants..

    Quote
    Catholics have a Pope poop ..whatever, which they consider a vicar for Christ — an infallible stand-in,  who heads the Church/Christians. Protestants believe no human is infallible and  Jesus alone heads up the Church  ..

     
    CAN YOU DO THAT TO ISLAM??

    What is Shia Islam?

    what is Bahá'í Faith or bahulla Islam? did it not come from Shia Islam?

    don't you have zillion Sufi Islams??

    Again  What kind of reforms are we looking for  in Islam?..

     Frankly speaking if you reform Islam .. YOU WILL GO BACK TO CHRISTIANITY  without Christ being god or son of god or whatever..

    Or  you go back to JUDAISM slashing some of its texts here and there..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #12 - March 26, 2015, 12:02 AM

    Hassan
    Not jeering...I havent really mentioned Majiid Nawaz here....indeed....I might have been referring to ''What the fatah is out!''-guy when I wrote that.

    Zaotar
    I think your correct. In order for a reform movement to grow, it has to be compromised by fervent believers.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #13 - March 26, 2015, 12:12 AM

    .........In order for a reform movement to grow, it has to be compromised by fervent believers   ..........


    what??  fervent believers?? you will see blood baths and killing fields..

    what do you think are those fools in so-called ISIS??

    And what do you mean by fervent believers?

    Are all millions of Muslim folks who don't have background in Quran, hadith sunnah.., aren't they  believers in Allah?

    And  fervent believers in what? in  Allah? or in Quran? or in Quran , hadith, Sunnah?

    Or  fervent believers  Just in Allah but not in Quran and not not in ANY TEXT OF ANY SO CALLED RELIGION?  In other words it is just fervent  agnostic personal belief with no texts?

    I don't know I don't like the word "fervent " .Skywalker.. That sounds like a nut case to me..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #14 - March 26, 2015, 12:33 AM

    Fervent believers, as in a group of believers who are intensely committed to their beliefs.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #15 - March 26, 2015, 12:43 AM

    Fervent believers, as in a group of believers who are intensely committed to their beliefs.


    good.. good def..now  next write  the rules .

    "ISLAMIC RULES"  from Islamic scriptures for Fervent believers....

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #16 - March 26, 2015, 02:16 AM

    Fervent believers, as in a group of believers who are intensely committed to their beliefs.



    Everyone is intensely committed to their beliefs.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #17 - March 26, 2015, 02:20 AM

    Everyone is intensely committed to their beliefs.

    No...Nooo.....Nope.....Not every one.. not me..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #18 - March 26, 2015, 02:25 AM

    No...Nooo.....Nope.....Not every one.. not me..


    Lol… you most of all, Yeezy Tongue
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #19 - March 26, 2015, 02:35 AM

    Lol… you most of all, Yeezy Tongue

    really??  prove it Hassan., and what do you think is my belief?

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #20 - March 26, 2015, 08:12 AM

    and what do you think is my belief?


    That you are right, of course!   Wink

    If there's one thing I've learnt from you Yeezy (well apart from that you are an odd fellow) is that you always passionately believe you are right.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #21 - March 26, 2015, 09:12 AM

    One of the real issues is the effect modern information technology has had.It has meant that liberal interpretation on different issues  can travel from the US, which happens, to the entire world.It has also meant that ancient scholarly work has been shared and many have been (almost) inoculated from certain ideas that would bring about substantial change. Scholarly consensus has therefore become a third source of religious beliefs and laws after the Quran and the hadith for the general population.
    When Martin Luther started the reformation, most of the Christian population in Europe was illiterate and maybe even unaware of much of what the clergymen believed or knew.In many respects, Martin Luther was dealing with a blank slate.An equivalent of Martin Luther in Islam might have someone living during the age prior to modern information technology. Such a person would have easier time, among the general muslim population, in opposing the fact that the muslim scholars had added a second source to Islam, the hadith, to the Quran or that there was such a thing called scholarly consensus that was a source to Islam.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #22 - March 26, 2015, 09:39 AM

    That you are right, of course!   Wink

    If there's one thing I've learnt from you Yeezy (well apart from that you are an odd fellow) is that you always passionately believe you are right.

    Yap   of course!    you are riot Hassan.. Indeed I am a passionate guy. I will agree with you  that I am "passionate"

    but I was asking you about  my belief..

    And STOP BLOCKING UNBLOCKING "yeezevee"   Cheesy   I wonder how many times a month you do that... lol....  well I got to go ..be baaak

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #23 - March 26, 2015, 11:41 AM

    One of the real issues is the effect modern information technology has had.It has meant that liberal interpretation on different issues  can travel from the US, which happens, to the entire world.It has also meant that ancient scholarly work has been shared and many have been (almost) inoculated from certain ideas that would bring about substantial change. Scholarly consensus has therefore become a third source of religious beliefs and laws after the Quran and the hadith for the general population.
    When Martin Luther started the reformation, most of the Christian population in Europe was illiterate and maybe even unaware of much of what the clergymen believed or knew.In many respects, Martin Luther was dealing with a blank slate.An equivalent of Martin Luther in Islam might have someone living during the age prior to modern information technology. Such a person would have easier time, among the general muslim population, in opposing the fact that the muslim scholars had added a second source to Islam, the hadith, to the Quran or that there was such a thing called scholarly consensus that was a source to Islam.



    Luther's success was not due to the masses, it was due to convincing the German Princes and nobles that he was right. Without convincing the nobility his movement would have died just as every other movement which lacked or had minor support from the nobility. Also the printing press allowed his otherwise obscure work to spread thus he gained support without direct communication with the nobility. Luther would be more like Wahhabism which has convinced a state, or is used by the state, as the proper form of Islam. This is similar to Luther and Henry VIII. Evangelicals were the group that lack state sponsorship until the colonies of American in the 17/18th centuries.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #24 - March 30, 2015, 11:08 PM

    bogart
    You're absolutely correct in the fact the main reason Martin Luther was successful was the fact that the rulers decided to adopt his ideas. Thats how Christianity was adopted in the Roman empire, with the conversion of emperor Constantine to Christianity, and thats how Islam and more specifically sunni Islam spread. Thats also how Iran, which had been sunni up until 1500, was converted to twelver Shiism.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_conversion_of_Iran_to_Shia_Islam

    In modern times though, such a strategy would be far more difficult to implement.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #25 - March 31, 2015, 09:39 AM

    I wonder what would've happened if the Mutazilites or the Fatimids(Ismailism) continued to rule/and or expanded the territories they ruled? How would the Islamic world looked like today?
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #26 - March 31, 2015, 10:30 AM

    bogart
    You're absolutely correct in the fact the main reason Martin Luther was successful was the fact that the rulers decided to adopt his ideas. Thats how Christianity was adopted in the Roman empire, with the conversion of emperor Constantine to Christianity, and thats how Islam and more specifically sunni Islam spread. Thats also how Iran, which had been sunni up until 1500, was converted to twelver Shiism.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Safavid_conversion_of_Iran_to_Shia_Islam

    In modern times though, such a strategy would be far more difficult to implement.


    I disagree in part. For Constantine Christianity already existed and was the dominate religion of the Eastern Provinces, which were also the wealthiest and developed. Christianity in fact was the largest religion in the Empire since polytheism varied from place to place and can not be considered a unified counterpart. Around 1/3 of the Roman empire are estimated to be Christian during his life. He made power play towards a view that already existed in order to rally support from an area he had no support in. Constantine already had support of Roman Britain and Gaul but this base was weak. Italy had long be under the economic influence of the East, while the East the Western part of the Empire was insignificant. Luther went against the dominate religion of his time and area. He failed to unify any sort of central authority under his new views. In fact his views created fragmentation within the Protestant community. There is also the fact that the Catholic population of Germany was centered further south. At this time wars with the Ottomans were sapping the strength of those that did opposed him. These differences show that these two figures are not parallels.

     Islam didn't convert massive amounts of the nobility as Lurther did, it replaced them with Muslim nobility. This is further emphasized by the garrison settlement system. The sectarian divides mirror Luther but only in minor ways.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #27 - March 31, 2015, 11:09 AM

    non-practicing liberal-minded, agnostic or even atheist Muslims who nevertheless still feel that the Muslim identity means something to them

    But isn't that just a social ghetto?

    Most of us live in ghettos to some degree or other, but is it a good idea to solemnise them, especially when key elements of the ghetto's culture are anathema to its liberal-minded members?
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #28 - March 31, 2015, 11:34 AM

    Yes perhaps, but I'm only talking about the short term, one or two generations, until things gradually start to change and Muslims can adjust and create a new identity that internalises more from the majority community. Having these people within the Muslum community rather than outside can help that change happen. In fact they may be key to change.
  • About calls for reforming Islam
     Reply #29 - March 31, 2015, 12:43 PM

    Would it help if Islam was defined as the religions of the Arab and Persian Empires?

    And then the question focusses on their political systems, not focussing on a very powerful symptom, their religions of sunni and shia?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • 12 3 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »