About calls for reforming Islam

Previous page 1 2 3« Previous thread | Next thread »
- Skywalker
- Pub Regular
- offline
About calls for reforming Islam
Reply #60 - June 13, 2015, 06:09 PM

Hassan
Are there any inerrant statements in the universe? If yes, do you have any examples?
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
About calls for reforming Islam
Reply #61 - June 13, 2015, 06:11 PM

Look I don't understand what point you are making. Could you cut to the chase and just make your point please.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
About calls for reforming Islam
Reply #62 - June 13, 2015, 06:13 PM

If you don't like the word inerrant, I'll use another word.

The point is that what the Prophet said is considered infallible/never wrong/always right/never makes a mistake... when it comes to religion. So the only issue is if the hadith is accepted as authentic or not. If it is accepted as authentic then it must be followed. - according to orthodox Sunni Islam.
- Skywalker
- Pub Regular
- offline
About calls for reforming Islam
Reply #63 - June 13, 2015, 06:16 PM

Quote
Look I don't understand what point you are making. Could you cut to the chase and just make your point please.

My point is that its not that hadith that are considered inerrant, its the prophet.The hadiths, including chain of narrators(all considered fallible), are just mechanisms or tools for observers to conclude whether the prophet said it or not.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
About calls for reforming Islam
Reply #64 - June 13, 2015, 06:17 PM

Erm... which is why I said the only issue is if it is considered authentic.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
About calls for reforming Islam
Reply #65 - June 13, 2015, 06:18 PM

This is what I said:

Quote from: Hassan on June 13, 2015, 05:08 PM
Actually you are wrong there Skywalker, most orthodox Sunni Muslims will consider an "authentic" hadith as being divinely inspired also - albeit not "literally god's words" but inspired by God nevertheless. As a result they are a considered inerrant and must be followed. They will only reject it if they can dismiss it's authenticity.
- Skywalker
- Pub Regular
- offline
About calls for reforming Islam
Reply #66 - June 13, 2015, 09:23 PM

Sorry, I had to go to the store

Quote from: Hassan on June 13, 2015, 06:17 PM
Erm... which is why I said the only issue is if it is considered authentic.

I disagree a bit. At first

Quote
most orthodox Sunni Muslims will consider an "authentic" hadith as being divinely inspired also

And then

Quote from: Hassan on June 13, 2015, 06:13 PM
The point is that what the Prophet said is considered infallible/never wrong/always right/never makes a mistake... when it comes to religion. So the only issue is if the hadith is accepted as authentic or not. If it is accepted as authentic then it must be followed. - according to orthodox Sunni Islam.

The thing is that there's a difference whether you use inspired, infallible or inerrant.
Authentic hadith inspired ≠ prophet inspired
An example from Bukhari

Quote
Volume 8, Book 75, Number 331:

Narrated 'Aisha:

Whenever Allah's Apostle went to bed, he used to blow on his hands while reciting the Mu'auwidhat ( i.e. Suratal-Falaq and Surat-an-Nas, 113 and 114) and then pass his hands over his body,

This authentic hadith itself is not, according to Sunni Islam, considered inspired, only the prophet is. According to this hadith the words are uttered by Aisha. Also, the authentic hadith always includes isnad(chain of narrators ) which is neither the words of the prophet or any individual person.The isnad IS part of the hadith. To a christian who believes in biblical inerrancy, it would be as if a reliable priest(or church) was reading the Bible or describing with their own words what the Bible says. At one time in Europe, in which the average person was illiteral, that may have been the norm
- Skywalker
- Pub Regular
- offline
About calls for reforming Islam
Reply #67 - June 14, 2015, 10:46 AM

Here's another hadith considered authentic, which shows why authentic hadith inspired ≠ prophet inspired. Its from Bukhari

Quote
Volume 5, Book 58, Number 188:

Narrated 'Amr bin Maimun:

During the pre-lslamic period of ignorance I saw a she-monkey surrounded by a number of monkeys. They were all stoning it, because it had committed illegal sexual intercourse. I too, stoned it along with them.

This hadith is considered authentic, but the actor is not considered inspired /inerrant.
- nbhb
- Restricted
- offline
About calls for reforming Islam
Reply #68 - June 14, 2015, 01:31 PM

Mehdi Hasan:
Those who cry so simplistically, and not a little inanely, for an Islamic reformation, should be careful what they wish for.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/17/islam-reformation-extremism-muslim-martin-luther-europe
- Skywalker
- Pub Regular
- offline
About calls for reforming Islam
Reply #69 - June 14, 2015, 02:22 PM

nhhb
Quote
Mehdi Hasan:
Those who cry so simplistically, and not a little inanely, for an Islamic reformation, should be careful what they wish for.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/17/islam-reformation-extremism-muslim-martin-luther-europe

It is actually very similar to something that Tom Holland said, and I also pointed out this before. The similarities between salafism and the Reformation are interesting. Other than having the goal of restoring the true and original interpretation of their religion, another similarity is the spread of salafism by modern technology. Instead of the printing press, which is the way the Protestant reformation spread, salafi ihadism has spread using to a large degree the internet.
- nbhb
- Restricted
- offline
About calls for reforming Islam
Reply #70 - June 14, 2015, 04:32 PM

I do also believe he is rising a very good point.
- Skywalker
- Pub Regular
- offline
About calls for reforming Islam
Reply #71 - June 15, 2015, 04:02 PM

I often find people who are very secular not understanding the problem of coming up with a new interpretation of Islam that is perfectly in line with liberal and modern values. The problem is that they don't understand that religious people, and in this case muslims, sincerely believe in their scripture. Once that is understood, it should be easy to understand why the greatest obstacle to liberalization is the fear of committing heresy. Asking religious people to 'reform', from a very secular perspective, is like asking someone in a labyrinth to find the exit, through the phone from the outside, with blindfold.
- ibn Bilal
- Global Moderator
- سلاسي هو المسيح
- offline
About calls for reforming Islam
Reply #72 - June 15, 2015, 07:03 PM

I wonder if there might be a case to be made for promoting the idea of Qur’anic corruption, or put another way, the idea that the Qur'an we have today contains additions that were not revealed by Allah. I understand that this goes against traditional doctrine – obviously – but perhaps it may be something useful to explore. It may not be very difficult to substantiate, either. Muslims already believe this about the Bible and the Torah.

For almost every appalling Quranic verse, there exists one that contradicts it. (I’m struggling now to think of an exception to this.)

As the Qur’an states that if it were from other than Allah, it would contain many contradictions, it would stand to follow that one of two contradictory verses must not be from Allah.

The Qur’an states that it will be preserved. It doesn’t state that things will never be added to it. Perhaps the case could be made that the preserved Qur’an is entangled in the later corruptions.
- ibn Bilal
- Global Moderator
- سلاسي هو المسيح
- offline
About calls for reforming Islam
Reply #73 - June 15, 2015, 07:16 PM

Although thers is this verse:

لَا يَأْتِيهِ الْبَاطِلُ مِنْ بَيْنِ يَدَيْهِ وَلَا مِنْ خَلْفِهِ ۖ تَنْزِيلٌ مِنْ حَكِيمٍ حَمِيدٍ

"No falsehood can approach it from before or behind it: It is sent down by One Full of Wisdom, Worthy of all Praise."

Though, even that is contradicted by:

وما أرسلنا من قبلك من رسول ولا نبي إلا إذا تمنى ألقى الشيطان في أمنيته فينسخ الله ما يلقي الشيطان ثم يحكم الله آياته والله عليم حكيم

"Never did We send a messenger or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom"

Maybe there really is just no hope for the Qur'an.
- Skywalker
- Pub Regular
- offline
About calls for reforming Islam
Reply #74 - June 15, 2015, 10:41 PM

happymurtad

What about the hadith. As I stated earlier:

The veil(traditional view),stoning,fgm, death penalty for apostasy,death penalty for blasphemy, THE CONCEPT OF ABROGATION and the entire story the prophet is almost exclusively found in the hadith.

Quran can be interpreted in other ways, when not being read in light of the hadith.
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
About calls for reforming Islam
Reply #75 - June 16, 2015, 12:28 AM

Oh boy... happymutad is on role with Quran...
Quote from: happymurtad on June 15, 2015, 07:03 PM
..............For almost every appalling Quranic verse, there exists one that contradicts it. (I’m struggling now to think of an exception to this.) ..................

well let me read a verse for readers
Quote
Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein much incongruity.

Do they not then meditate on the Quran? And if it were from any other than Allah, they would have found in it many a discrepancy.

That is verse 4:82 with three different translations Yusuf Ali., Pickthal ., Shakir .. interesting verse.. and that is for happM., So Happy hippie M must know that there is NOT much discrepancy in with-in Quran verses..

Anyways happyM also reads
Quote from: happymurtad on June 15, 2015, 07:16 PM
Although thers is this verse:

لَا يَأْتِيهِ الْبَاطِلُ مِنْ بَيْنِ يَدَيْهِ وَلَا مِنْ خَلْفِهِ ۖ تَنْزِيلٌ مِنْ حَكِيمٍ حَمِيدٍ

"No falsehood can approach it from before or behind it: It is sent down by One Full of Wisdom, Worthy of all Praise."

Though, even that is contradicted by:

وما أرسلنا من قبلك من رسول ولا نبي إلا إذا تمنى ألقى الشيطان في أمنيته فينسخ الله ما يلقي الشيطان ثم يحكم الله آياته والله عليم حكيم

"Never did We send a messenger or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom"

Maybe there really is just no hope for the Qur'an.

I guess HappM is considering those highlighted words of verse 41:42 and     words of verse 22:52 as contradictory ., but let me take that verse 22:52 again and read it carefully

Quote
Never did We send a messenger or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom:

Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise;

And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet, but when he desired, the Shaitan made a suggestion respecting his desire; but Allah annuls that which the Shaitan casts, then does Allah establish His communications, and Allah is Knowing, Wise,

That is again from three well known translators of Quran.. So.....so.. it says    And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet , ... Allah did not send any messenger before thee....

who is this Thee?
who was that person??
Allah did not send any messenger before that "thee"?
Allah did not send any prophet before that "thee"?

I am pulling my hair on that .. Help me out guys help me out.. i don't want to loose my hair..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
About calls for reforming Islam
Reply #76 - June 16, 2015, 01:27 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on June 16, 2015, 12:28 AM
................ words of verse 22:52 .......... but let me take that verse 22:52 again and read it carefully
Quote

وَمَآ أَرْسَلْنَا مِن قَبْلِكَ مِن رَّسُولٍۢ وَلَا نَبِىٍّ إِلَّآ إِذَا تَمَنَّىٰٓ أَلْقَى ٱلشَّيْطَـٰنُ فِىٓ أُمْنِيَّتِهِۦ فَيَنسَخُ ٱللَّهُ مَا يُلْقِى ٱلشَّيْطَـٰنُ ثُمَّ يُحْكِمُ ٱللَّهُ ءَايَـٰتِهِۦ ۗ وَٱللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌۭ

Never did We send a messenger or a prophet before thee, but, when he framed a desire, Satan threw some (vanity) into his desire: but Allah will cancel anything (vain) that Satan throws in, and Allah will confirm (and establish) His Signs: for Allah is full of Knowledge and Wisdom:

So let me go back to that verses which says.... "Never did We send a messenger or a prophet before thee"... Why? we know well there were plenty Prophets before that "THEE"., So why did that verses say that? what was the even that made some one to utter such words?? for that we got to read Quran again.. And if we want to understand an event of any verse we must read atleast 5 verses below and 5 verses above the verse of interest.. so let me read that from my favorite translator .. Shakir.. frankly speaking that whole surah 22 is interesting in the sense it comes from Madina and it appears Prophet is very angry .. well no Allah appears to be angry.. after all they are allah words.. And it is clear from that surah-22 it goes straight in to the subject of what is happening in the middle east specially in Iraq..

Quote
022.047 : And they ask you to hasten on the punishment, and Allah will by no means fail in His promise, and surely a day with your Lord is as a thousand years of what you number.

022.048 : And how many a town to which I gave respite while it was unjust, then I overtook it, and to Me is the return.

022.049: Say: O people! I am only a plain warner to you.

022.050 : Then (as for) those who believe and do good, they shall have forgiveness and an honorable sustenance.

022.051: And (as for) those who strive to oppose Our communications, they shall be the inmates of the flaming fire.

022.052: And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet, but when he desired, the Shaitan made a suggestion respecting his desire; but Allah annuls that which the Shaitan casts, then does Allah establish His communications, and Allah is Knowing, Wise,

022.053: So that He may make what the Shaitan casts a trial for those in whose hearts is disease and those whose hearts are hard; and most surely the unjust are in a great opposition,

022.054: And that those who have been given the knowledge may know that it is the truth from your Lord, so they may believe in it and their hearts may be lowly before it; and most surely Allah is the Guide of those who believe into a right path.

022.055: And those who disbelieve shall not cease to be in doubt concerning it until the hour overtakes them suddenly, or there comes on them the chastisement of a destructive day.

022.056: The kingdom on that day shall be Allah's; He will judge between them; so those who believe and do good will be in gardens of bliss.

022.057 : And for those who reject Faith and deny our Signs, there will be a humiliating Punishment.

022.058: Those who leave their homes in the cause of Allah, and are then slain or die,- On them will Allah bestow verily a goodly Provision: Truly Allah is He Who bestows the best provision

well.. that is what Quran says., "those who reject Faith and deny our Signs, there will be a humiliating Punishment and Those who leave their homes in the cause of Allah, and are then slain or die,- On them will Allah bestow verily a goodly Provision

................Sure lot of brainless bums and faith heads are leaving their homes in AMRIKA, London, Pakistan, Canada Egypt, Palestine, and from many other countries in the cause of Allah, and are then slain or die...................

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
About calls for reforming Islam
Reply #77 - June 17, 2015, 12:09 AM

So that verse 022.052..........

How many such statements that says "We did not send before you any messenger or prophet" are there at different places in Quran"

Quote
And We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed by permission of Allah. And if, when they wronged themselves, they had come to you, [O Muhammad], and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Accepting of repentance and Merciful. ......... 4:64

And We did not send any Messenger before you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) but We revealed to him (saying): La ilaha illa Ana [none has the right to be worshipped but I (Allah)], so worship Me (Alone and none else)." .........21:25

Well quran writers/collectors/scribes/translators .. whatever threw such words "we did not send any messenger" here and there ., The problem is quran clearly says in many more verses that there were Prophets and messengers before Muhammad. before the birth of Islam.... for e.g let me put few of those verses here ..

Quote
Verily We sent messengers before thee, among them those of whom We have told thee, and some of whom We have not told thee; and it was not given to any messenger that he should bring a portent save by Allah's leave, but when Allah's commandment cometh (the cause) is judged aright, and the followers of vanity will then be lost. ........40:78

And verily We sent messengers (to mankind) before thee, and We appointed for them wives and offspring, and it was not (given) to any messenger that he should bring a portent save by Allah's leave. For everything there is a time prescribed. ................13:38

And We did not send any messenger except [speaking] in the language of his people to state clearly for them, and Allah sends astray [thereby] whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise. ..........14:4

Well that is what it is..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- Skywalker
- Pub Regular
- offline
About calls for reforming Islam
Reply #78 - January 06, 2016, 03:12 AM

If everyone were to look at the facebook/twitter accounts of many of the people who are called reformers(often those who are supported by people such as Sam Harris). How many muslim commentators are there supporting them?

I will say this, it is extremely rare to find a muslim supporter(often highlighted), and even then there's ambiguity over whether they are muslims or exmuslims.
- Skywalker
- Pub Regular
- offline
About calls for reforming Islam
Reply #79 - January 06, 2016, 04:33 AM

Quod, since your online....what do you think...?
- Quod Sum Eris
- King of the
- Pub Regular
- offline
About calls for reforming Islam
Reply #80 - January 06, 2016, 04:43 AM

12th February can't come soon enough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZIM1HydF9UA

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- Skywalker
- Pub Regular
- offline
About calls for reforming Islam
Reply #81 - January 06, 2016, 01:25 PM

I mean about
Quote
If everyone were to look at the facebook/twitter accounts of many of the people who are called reformers(often those who are supported by people such as Sam Harris). How many muslim commentators are there supporting them?

I will say this, it is extremely rare to find a muslim supporter(often highlighted), and even then there's ambiguity over whether they are muslims or exmuslims.
- C
- Member
- offline
About calls for reforming Islam
Reply #82 - January 07, 2016, 05:02 AM

if we get muslims to accept secularism were golden…praying, fasting, charity, pilgrimage, iman, even social aspects of islam, all that is ok…but leave politics and laws for the secular sphere. if people are free to criticise…islam loses its teeth.

the jews believe that their religious laws cant be implemented until the messiah comes…maybe something like that should be more popular in islam…no sharia until mahdi returns.

more muslims need to start saying "hey, sharia has led to misery and oppression everywhere…lets re-evaluate it"
- Bolton34
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
About calls for reforming Islam
Reply #83 - January 07, 2016, 10:23 AM

But the Mahdi idea is linked to "coming out of darkness", which I believe will always be associated with not taking Islam seriously. Muslims over-romanticise the early years of Islam and go on about "the light of Islam" without bothering to stop and think "wait... these countries which became Muslim were actually far more advanced and progressive WITHOUT Islam!"

To admit that would shake their myths about Islam bringing civilisation and progress to the world, and from what I've seen no Muslim wants that at all. Not even Progressive Muslims.
Previous page 1 2 3« Previous thread | Next thread »