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 Topic: I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!

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  • Re: I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #30 - April 21, 2015, 11:53 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on April 21, 2015, 11:12 PM
    Hey what's with the *roll eyes* - if your Nirvana is real then why not my starship?  Tongue


    starship or heaven or Nirvana its just different names, everything can have different names, but its there

    our world we live in is very small, the universie is too much big..the scientist knows very little of it

    so why is that hard to believe in heaven? don't you think there is a lots of unknown world?
  • I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #31 - April 22, 2015, 06:14 AM
    It isn't hard for me to imagine a different realm of existence that we might call a heaven, a lush planet that would bring to mind tales of Eden or perhaps another universe where the laws of physics are different from our own. However, that's not the same as an afterlife. If you believe in it, that's fine, but I struggle.

    As far as I'm aware, everything that makes us "us" is housed in the brain. When the brain is damaged through accident or illness, it changes us. It changes our personality. It takes away parts of who we are. There are whole aspects of what makes you you simply missing. And yet I'm supposed to believe that when the entire thing dies, and dries up, and rots, I somehow still survive? There's nothing I'm aware of to make me think this is a reality.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Re: I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #32 - April 22, 2015, 10:10 AM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on April 21, 2015, 12:41 PM
    It isn't hard for me to imagine a different realm of existence that we might call a heaven, a lush planet that would bring to mind tales of Eden or perhaps another universe where the laws of physics are different from our own. However, that's not the same as an afterlife. If you believe in it, that's fine, but I struggle.

    As far as I'm aware, everything that makes us "us" is housed in the brain. When the brain is damaged through accident or illness, it changes us. It changes our personality. It takes away parts of who we are. There are whole aspects of what makes you you simply missing. And yet I'm supposed to believe that when the entire thing dies, and dries up, and rots, I somehow still survive? There's nothing I'm aware of to make me think this is a reality.


    Hmmm...heaven or Nirvana is actually associated with after life..because everybody will reach there have some struggle to be there..nothing is without struggle after all!!!

    regarding after life..there is hundreds of evidence suggest it is!!!

    you just need to figure it out and understand it
  • I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #33 - April 22, 2015, 11:09 AM
    You quoted me yet don't reply to anything I said.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #34 - April 22, 2015, 12:19 PM
    My bullshit alarm goes off when someone easily dismisses one set of unproven set of metaphysical claims as nonsense:

    Quote from: HeavenlySea on April 20, 2015, 09:55 PM
    Islam is sucks...its not the hope of life and will never will be!!!


    Yet is certain their favourite set of unproven set of metaphysical claims is true:

    Quote from: HeavenlySea on April 22, 2015, 10:10 AM
    Hmmm...heaven or Nirvana is actually associated with after life..because everybody will reach there have some struggle to be there..nothing is without struggle after all!!!

    regarding after life..there is hundreds of evidence suggest it is!!!

    you just need to figure it out and understand it


    Could you post some of the "hundreds of evidence" for an afterlife, please?
  • Re: I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #35 - April 22, 2015, 03:20 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on April 21, 2015, 11:24 PM
    My bullshit alarm goes off when someone easily dismisses one set of unproven set of metaphysical claims as nonsense:


    easily? seriously? I was muslim for 17 years, and came from country where islam came from..how do judge its easily?

    Quote from: Hassan on April 21, 2015, 11:24 PM
    Yet is certain their favourite set of unproven set of metaphysical claims is true:


    will, you have your beliefes in atheism, and I have my beliefes in Buddhism...your athiesm either doesn't have the certain evidence even if they claim to!!! can you prove 100% there is no God? can you prove there 100% there is no paranomral thing? such as at least dreams thing? seriosuly!!! people need more understanding!!!

    Quote from: Hassan on April 21, 2015, 11:24 PM
    Could you post some of the "hundreds of evidence" for an afterlife, please?


    This a very long topic...it need a separate thread alone..I might write some topic about it here later
  • I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #36 - April 22, 2015, 03:36 PM
    I think people would be willing to cut you a lot more slack, heavenlysea, and agree to let you think whatever you want to think without argument if you were not going around saying that you are absolutely right and heaven is definitely real.

    But if you're going to be making bold claims and telling us that you're correct and there's no two ways about it, you're going to have to, of course, expect us to demand that you show us satisfactory proof, and you'll have to, of course, realize that you are inviting people to disagree with you when you go around making such lofty claims.

    Maybe a better way to put it is "I believe heaven is real/I think heaven is real." You know, some humility, something to separate you from zealous believers of anything else, like Islam, like Christianity.
  • I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #37 - April 22, 2015, 03:38 PM
    Quote from: HeavenlySea on April 22, 2015, 03:20 PM
    can you prove 100% there is no God

    Depends on what you mean by god. I feel confident for instance I can prove the muslim god does not exist as well as other gods found in human religion. A deistic god on the other hand no one can disprove at this point in time (as far as I'm aware). The better question is why should you believe?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #38 - April 22, 2015, 04:14 PM
    Quote from: HeavenlySea on April 22, 2015, 03:20 PM
    will, you have your beliefes in atheism, and I have my beliefes in Buddhism...your athiesm either doesn't have the certain evidence even if they claim to!!! can you prove 100% there is no God? can you prove there 100% there is no paranomral thing? such as at least dreams thing? seriosuly!!! people need more understanding!!!


    You are using the number one logical fallacy:

    #1. Argumentum ad ignorantium - Fallacy that something must be true because it has not been, Or can't be, proven false. If you can't prove that god doesn't exist, That means he must exist.

    You also seem to like using strawmen - where did I say I was an Atheist?

    As it happens I am Agnostic. That means I believe that the existence of God cannot be proven nor disproven.

    So in answer to your question, no, I can't prove there is no god nor supernatural things - but I have never made a claim that I am certain these things don't exist. My claim is that one simply cannot prove any metaphysical claims like gods, heavens and supernatural events - these things are a matter of *faith* not certainty.

    You are the one claiming to be certain.

    So you are the one who needs to back that certainty up.

    What makes you certain?
  • I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #39 - April 22, 2015, 04:16 PM
    Quote from: lua on April 22, 2015, 03:36 PM
    I think people would be willing to cut you a lot more slack, heavenlysea, and agree to let you think whatever you want to think without argument if you were not going around saying that you are absolutely right and heaven is definitely real.

    But if you're going to be making bold claims and telling us that you're correct and there's no two ways about it, you're going to have to, of course, expect us to demand that you show us satisfactory proof, and you'll have to, of course, realize that you are inviting people to disagree with you when you go around making such lofty claims.

    Maybe a better way to put it is "I believe heaven is real/I think heaven is real." You know, some humility, something to separate you from zealous believers of anything else, like Islam, like Christianity.


    Takbeer!
  • I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #40 - April 22, 2015, 04:16 PM
    .
  • I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #41 - April 22, 2015, 04:48 PM
    Quote from: HeavenlySea on April 22, 2015, 03:20 PM
    will, you have your beliefes in atheism, and I have my beliefes in Buddhism

    Most buddists are atheists, Indeed, the buddha himself completely rejected the idea of a creator deity. While there are otherworldly beings in some schools of thought, they are not gods as most people think of gods (all knowing and all powerful sky father), but lesser gods at best. On the whole they are irrelevant to buddhism. There could be a god and no afterlife. There could be an afterlife and no god. These abrahamic styles of questions have no place in buddhism.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Re: I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #42 - April 22, 2015, 06:24 PM
    Quote from: lua on April 22, 2015, 03:36 PM
    I think people would be willing to cut you a lot more slack, heavenlysea, and agree to let you think whatever you want to think without argument if you were not going around saying that you are absolutely right and heaven is definitely real.

    But if you're going to be making bold claims and telling us that you're correct and there's no two ways about it, you're going to have to, of course, expect us to demand that you show us satisfactory proof, and you'll have to, of course, realize that you are inviting people to disagree with you when you go around making such lofty claims.

    Maybe a better way to put it is "I believe heaven is real/I think heaven is real." You know, some humility, something to separate you from zealous believers of anything else, like Islam, like Christianity.


    you seems forget the main topic here, the one who asked for help in this thread, has said that he felt furstrated after leaving islam, because there is no heaven, so I try to boost his morale!! every body seems forget this

    and this forum supposed to be for free speech..isn't it? so if I personaly sure that there is heaven, but most here don't agree, so I will said Ok there is heaven, but I am not sure, just to suite the forum here?

    Thats not free speech if that the case..and I didn't force any to lestin to me..nor believe mine

    I hope it won't be athiest version of islamic forum
  • I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #43 - April 22, 2015, 07:38 PM
    Woah. You're talking about your freedom of speech so soon? You kind of prematurely brought out the big guns, heavenlysea.

    I haven't forgotten the main topic. I just don't think all advice is good advice, and, frankly, I'd be surprised if he found the problem with Islam and somehow could still be coaxed into believing in heaven without proof. It's cool that that was your intention and I'm sure it was a good one, but still, if a Muslim showed up right now and started trying to make him feel better by reassuring him that Islam was definitely true after all, regardless of his good intentions I think we'd all have a thing or two to say about that.

    As for your concern over your freedom of speech, I do know that English isn't your first language so I am going to assume that you just didn't understand the point I was trying to make the first time around, and I'm going to just go ahead and restate it and maybe we'll be on the same page this time:

    I'm not saying that you can't believe in heaven. I'm also not saying that you can't say "I know 100% that there is a heaven and everyone who thinks there isn't a heaven is totally wrong and that's the end of the story." You can say that and that's fine. But you aren't going to have fun unless you're around people who also believe in heaven if you're not ready to provide some evidence for such an assertion. Obviously we're going to want that.

    If I told you that Elvis isn't dead, you're not going to take my word for that, and you're probably not going to like me acting like I'm so much wiser and more enlightened than thou for knowing that Elvis isn't dead, and you're probably at some point going to say, "You know what? If he's alive, prove it." And if I have proof (and if you have proof of heaven) I should be ready to give it to whoever asks, because I'm the one who claimed it existed. And if I don't have proof, and it turns out that I just really, really feel that Elvis is alive and I'm so convinced of it that I'd even go so far as to say that I "know" he's alive because I feel it in my gut, that's my right, but I'm going to have to deal with everyone who doesn't feel it in their gut disagreeing with me and thinking I'm deluded.

    So the point of my original post to you wasn't that you can't say or believe these things. Honestly, I don't really care. But if it's not necessary to watch your feathers be ruffled when you're receiving what should be the expected reaction from others when you're going around saying heaven is definitely true, I'd only slightly prefer that we take an alternative path. And that path can be taken by simply acknowledging that you don't really know anything about the afterlife or the big picture questions.

    You say that scientists don't know everything, and that's true, and any good scientist will tell you that himself. But that's a two way street, my friend. It goes both ways. You also don't know everything. And if you claim to have access to some supernatural knowledge without evidence to back it up, you're not going to be taken seriously.

    But if you want to keep phrasing your beliefs in that way, it's up to you. I won't lose any sleep. But just be ready, because obviously people are going to disagree with you, and obviously they'll want some evidence. If you're ready to handle that, good for you. If not, I wonder what you're doing looking for intellectual conversation with people who aren't just going to nod their heads quietly along when you speak.

    And, by the way, disagreeing with you and offering you advice would also be free speech where applicable, so let's not be too dramatic quite yet.
  • I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #44 - April 22, 2015, 07:51 PM
    Quote from: HeavenlySea on April 22, 2015, 06:24 PM
    you seems forget the main topic here, the one who asked for help in this thread, has said that he felt furstrated after leaving islam, because there is no heaven, so I try to boost his morale!! every body seems forget this

    and this forum supposed to be for free speech..isn't it? so if I personaly sure that there is heaven, but most here don't agree, so I will said Ok there is heaven, but I am not sure, just to suite the forum here?

    Thats not free speech if that the case..and I didn't force any to lestin to me..nor believe mine

    I hope it won't be athiest version of islamic forum


    You appear to be under misapprehension that "Free Speech" means "Don't challenge what I say!"
  • I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #45 - April 22, 2015, 07:55 PM
    Okay Hassan's reply was much more succinct. Grin
  • I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #46 - April 22, 2015, 07:58 PM
    Quote from: lua on April 22, 2015, 07:55 PM
    Okay Hassan's reply was much more succinct. Grin


    Don't worry Lua, I enjoyed your short essay.
  • I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #47 - April 22, 2015, 07:59 PM
    Cheesy Perhaps the shortest I've ever written.
  • I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #48 - April 22, 2015, 08:01 PM
    I always enjoy Lua's wise words  Afro
  • I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #49 - April 22, 2015, 08:03 PM
    Aw, and I yours!
  • I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #50 - April 22, 2015, 08:06 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on April 22, 2015, 08:01 PM
    I always enjoy Lua's wise words  Afro


    Lua's words are good enough to convince Hamza tzortis himself that the Quran challenge has been met  worship
  • I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #51 - April 22, 2015, 08:09 PM
    Woah! Cheesy

    You're fucking with me, but still. 001_wub

  • I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #52 - April 22, 2015, 08:12 PM
    Oh come off it, Heavenlysea is just stating his beliefs, he can't provide evidence ? so what's the point in asking him to, give the new guy/gal a break.  Roll Eyes
  • I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #53 - April 22, 2015, 08:17 PM
    ^It's one thing to say "I believe this" and another thing to say, "This is a fact." If you go around insisting something is factual, someone's bound to ask for evidence. Especially if they're trying to make this claim to a vulnerable individual who came to us looking for advice.

    No one is forcing him (her?) to do anything. But if you're going to come on a forum to discuss and exchange ideas, you're in for an unhappy ride if you consider yours above question and above criticism. It's just not going to happen.
  • Re: I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #54 - April 22, 2015, 08:35 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on April 22, 2015, 07:51 PM
    You appear to be under misapprehension that "Free Speech" means "Don't challenge what I say!"


    There is slight differences between challenging and accuse others for being bullshit..its more for respectful conversation

    I have no problem with challenging, I was intended even to open thread regarding this
  • Re: I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #55 - April 22, 2015, 08:38 PM
    Quote from: suki on April 22, 2015, 08:12 PM
    Oh come off it, Heavenlysea is just stating his beliefs, he can't provide evidence ? so what's the point in asking him to, give the new guy/gal a break.  Roll Eyes


    correct, originaly, I was stating my opinion just for the thread opener to help him..not for the seek if debate, or even offending someone here!!

    The debate must be for other thread
  • I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #56 - April 22, 2015, 08:38 PM
    OK HeavenlySea - maybe I was a bit hard on you, particularly as you are a newbie - and I'm sure your intention was good.

    Please accept my apologies.  Afro
  • I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #57 - April 22, 2015, 08:40 PM
    If you're up for that thread still, you should start it! Only if you are very sure that you can take disagreements and skepticism of your position, though.
  • I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #58 - April 22, 2015, 08:57 PM
    Quote from: HeavenlySea on April 22, 2015, 08:35 PM
    There is slight differences between challenging and accuse others for being bullshit..its more for respectful conversation


    Although, just so you understand, there's a difference between calling an idea bullshit and personally attacking you. One might think the idea of heaven is bullshit--and even tell you so bluntly--but that's not a personal insult, and I hope you won't take it as one.
  • Re: I am an ex muslim and I badly need help to survive!
     Reply #59 - April 22, 2015, 10:20 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on April 22, 2015, 08:38 PM
    OK HeavenlySea - maybe I was a bit hard on you, particularly as you are a newbie - and I'm sure your intention was good.

    Please accept my apologies.  Afro


    Good...you welcome Smiley
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