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 Topic: What is an Agnostic Muslim?

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  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #90 - May 11, 2015, 07:11 PM
    Quote from: asbie on May 11, 2015, 05:46 PM
    Difference is that such a move wasn't done to promote inclusion and facilitate the flourishing of diverse thought. It's just another nationalist movement. The idea would be to recapture a shared "Islamic" identity (to whatever extent it exists), outside the influence of barbaric religious nationalists.


    Oh no! I'm sorry if my remarks came across as saying someone shouldn't adopt an identity that's related to or stems from or incorporates Muslim identity! Smiley On the contrary I think it is very important to destabilize all identities (lest they become rigid), and the best way to do that is to open the doors and windows on them, and let the people living under those identities breathe.

    I completely support people taking on any version of "Muslim" identity in order to open up the space for questioning, dissent, enlightened interpretations of that identity etc.

    My comments earlier were about specifically not using the Jewish example as a role model because Jews have been f*cked throughout history and, having studied various Jewish history a bit, and having a Jewish partner for the last 12 years has taught me that the identity of "Jewish" was imposed upon them by those who hated them. Then it was adopted by those who wanted power within Jewish communities and, after centuries of harassment and slaughter, it's become a matter that can hardly even be questioned since questioning it feels like a betrayal of all the people who suffered and died because bigots and hatemongers thought "Jews" were all the same and deserved to die.

    My point is that Muslim already has become a semi racialized identity. I'm very wary of adopting it without critically thinking about what that implies, who it emboldens, and who it erases. If we adopt it and adapt it, whilst also highlighting that it is not homogenous and that many different types of people and individuals exist who may self label or be labeled as "Muslim", I think we can stave off or reduce some of that sense of homogenization.
    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #91 - May 11, 2015, 08:49 PM
     Afro
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #92 - May 11, 2015, 09:26 PM
    Hey, I used to post a lot on this forum through my old account, and I remember that the only reason I came into this forum was because of Hassan. Anyways, I was interested in this post, mainly because I am confused by your position. In terms of belief and truth value, Islam is either completely true or untrue. Do you still believe that Islam is untrue?
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #93 - May 11, 2015, 09:48 PM
    Quote from: hocuspocus on May 11, 2015, 09:26 PM
    Hey, I used to post a lot on this forum through my old account, and I remember that the only reason I came into this forum was because of Hassan. Anyways, I was interested in this post, mainly because I am confused by your position. In terms of belief and truth value, Islam is either completely true or untrue. Do you still believe that Islam is untrue?


    Hi hocuspocus - my position on Islam has not changed. I believe the Qur'an is man made. I am Agnostic about God. I am a secularist. with liberal views etc... etc... I am the same person - I haven't changed.

    However as I said Islam played a major part in my life for 50 years and I feel more comfortable expressing my views with the label "Agnostic Muslim" rather than Ex-Muslim. A rose is a rose by any other name. But identifying as a Muslim makes my life easier and actually makes it much easier to express my views in dialogue with Muslims.

    "Don't walk behind me; I may not lead. Don't walk in front of me; I may not follow. Just walk beside me and be my friend." - Albert Camus

    Smiley

  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #94 - May 11, 2015, 11:04 PM
    Our friend, saahib al fadheelah, al-Imam, al-Mujaddid, al-Aalim ar-Rabbani, al-Allaamah, Samaahat as-Shaykh Hassan Radwan al-Britani al-Masri, hafithahullahu ta'aala wa ra'aah. grin12 dance
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #95 - May 11, 2015, 11:16 PM
    Cheesy

    ضحكتني والله يا حبيب قلبي

  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #96 - May 11, 2015, 11:32 PM
     grin12  far away hug
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #97 - May 12, 2015, 08:54 AM
     Cheesy
    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #98 - May 12, 2015, 09:13 AM
     Cheesy
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #99 - May 12, 2015, 09:21 AM
    Quote from: happymurtad on May 11, 2015, 11:04 PM
    ..............., saahib al fadheelah, al -Imam, al -Mujaddid, al -Aalim ar-Rabbani, al -Allaamah, Samaahat as-Shaykh Hassan Radwan al-Britani al-Masri, hafithahullahu ta'aala wa ra'aah...........


    Hmm I see  so many Al's- attached to Shaykh Milk shake Hassan Radwan..

    it appears  that this Al-Wilāyāt al-Muttaḥidah al-Amrīkīyah Al-happy al-murtadi doesn't know what his country senator said that "Everything that starts with 'Al' in the Middle East is bad news,"  ..  And on top of that  al-Amrīkīyah Senator has  intentions for  running for its presidency,

    But I agree with that senator that Al- is bad news., bad news to AMRIKHA.,   al-Amrīkīyah Al-Gore losing elections  was a bad news for Al-Gore and to his country and to the globe.,  

    Now I wonder how the global politics could have been different  if he won the elections  instead of that Al-Amrīkīyah al-saud al bush
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #100 - May 12, 2015, 10:09 PM
     Cheesy
    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #101 - May 15, 2015, 01:33 PM
    Quote from: countjulian on May 12, 2015, 10:09 PM
    Cheesy

     countjulian  Please  Stop laughing at   This
     
    well I would not be surprised to here from Agnostic Muslims. something similar  what Nabeel says  in this video..

     https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5M7ePlmgVxA

    And that is a good thing.. Boy Nabeel is goood..   Smart answer...

    Quote
     And when he came to it, a voice was uttered from the right side of the valley in the blessed spot of the bush, saying: O Musa! surely I am Allah, the Lord of the worlds.   (.........Al-Qasas, Chapter #28, Verse #30)  


    Damn you stupid fool yeezevee...  

     I was reading these words  in Quran.,  "O Musa! surely I am Allah, the Lord of the worlds."  which  came from behind the bush ., and i thought those words came from  ....Bush.. George Bush ,  who may have been  hiding behind some bush....
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #102 - May 15, 2015, 01:52 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on May 11, 2015, 04:50 PM
    Hey serpent - how you doing  Afro

    Did you ever watch Sesame Street? You remind me of the grouchy one who would emerge from the bin every now and again to whinge about something  grin12 dance

    Hope you're keeping well Smiley


    Nice attempt to try and distract away from my question by being facetious, but you completely prevaricated from answering my question. I see you still have your skills set from your time as an islamic preacher in how you evade questions.

    Agnosticism is the view that you don't know the answer of something. So do you still not know if you believe in Islam ?
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #103 - May 15, 2015, 02:27 PM
    Quote
    I see you still have your skills set from your time as an islamic preacher in how you evade questions.


    You're really scraping for low blows, aren't you?

    He already wrote what this term means to him at length. He's aware of what it literally means. And other people have pointed it out to him. At a certain point, he's going to get tired of responding to people who crop up and demand an explanation for his word choices.

    If you want to know his views on Islam, just read his OP and his comments that followed. If you don't, or you already know his views and you just want to hold him accountable until he uses words that satisfy you, don't be surprised if he brushes you off. No one owes you anything otherwise.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #104 - May 15, 2015, 02:49 PM
    Quote from: serpentofeden on May 15, 2015, 01:52 PM
    Nice attempt to try and distract away from my question by being facetious, but you completely prevaricated from answering my question. I see you still have your skills set from your time as an islamic preacher in how you evade questions.

    Serpentofeden ...........Serpento.......Hello Serpent .. hello Snake   .. How are You doing?

    Quote
    Agnosticism is the view that you don't know the answer of something. So do you still not know if you believe in Islam ?

    forget Hassan and forget Islam  "Talk to me" Snake Talk to me.. .  
    So what do you understand by Agnosticism?  
    what do you know about Agnosticism ?
    So Muslim folks don't have the rights to become Agnostics?

    Quote from: lua on May 15, 2015, 02:27 PM
    You're really scraping for low blows, aren't you?
    .................................

    scraping ? what scraping lua?

    You mean  serpent is trying Scratch  the balls?   no no.. Serpent is trying to kick the balls..

    Huh! This girl has a problem.. day by day she is becoming docile..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #105 - May 15, 2015, 03:14 PM
    Quote from: serpentofeden on May 15, 2015, 01:52 PM
    Nice attempt to try and distract away from my question by being facetious, but you completely prevaricated from answering my question. I see you still have your skills set from your time as an islamic preacher in how you evade questions.

    Agnosticism is the view that you don't know the answer of something. So do you still not know if you believe in Islam ?


    Hey Serpent Smiley

    Agnosticism is about knowledge. I do not know if God exists or not. Faith/belief is different. One can be an Agnostic and have faith/belief there is a God.

    Personally I tend to swing from doubting there is a God to a faith (or hope) that there is "something" - call it God if you will.

    As for Islam - no I don't believe in Islam - at least not the traditional or orthodox Islam. However I do feel comfortable identifying as a Muslim and expressing my own spirituality through Islamic terms of reference. I am also keen to forge ways to help Muslims liberalise and accept a more universalistic view of Islam.

    Is that OK with you Serpent?

    BTW I did not avoid your question because there was no question in your original post. It was a statement. I see no question nor question mark.

    If I am wrong, please do show me where I am wrong.

    Smiley
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #106 - May 15, 2015, 03:20 PM
    FYI Serpent Smiley

    Agnostic theism (or deism)

    Agnostic theism is the philosophical view that encompasses both theism and agnosticism. An agnostic theist believes in the existence of at least one deity, but regards the basis of this proposition as unknown or inherently unknowable...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_theism

  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #107 - May 15, 2015, 03:30 PM
    Re - your false accusation that I avoided your question - this was your original post, Serpent:

    Quote from: serpentofeden on May 11, 2015, 04:01 PM
    an agnostic muslim is like what I am:

    A VEGAN CARNIVORE


    Agnostic means something you don't know, so if you are an "agnostic muslim", what you are you saying by definition is that you don't know if you believe in Islam.


    Could you please tell me where is the question in that post above? ^  You know, the question you falsely accused me of dodging by saying:

    Quote from: serpentofeden on May 15, 2015, 01:52 PM
    Nice attempt to try and distract away from my question by being facetious, but you completely prevaricated from answering my question.


    As for this nasty little stab - the irony is you are the one being dishonest by claiming I dodged a question that you never asked.

    Quote from: serpentofeden on May 15, 2015, 01:52 PM
    I see you still have your skills set from your time as an islamic preacher in how you evade questions.


    Take care Serpent. Smiley
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #108 - May 15, 2015, 03:33 PM
    Quote from: yeezevee on May 15, 2015, 02:49 PM
    Huh! This girl has a problem.. day by day she is becoming docile..


    Grin I'm not sure others would call that a problem.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #109 - May 15, 2015, 03:50 PM
    Zeee  ..

    Agnostic 1).  
    Quote from: Hassan on May 15, 2015, 03:30 PM
    ...............

    Agnostic 2) .
    Quote from: Hassan on May 15, 2015, 03:20 PM
    FYI Serpent Smiley  ...

    Agnostic 3).  
    Quote from: Hassan on May 15, 2015, 03:14 PM
    .........


    And the question from serpent is....
    Quote from: serpentofeden on May 15, 2015, 01:52 PM
    ....... So do you still not know if you believe in Islam ?


    Anyways it is a fun subject...  So Uncle/Aunt wiki  says
     
    Quote
    Agnostic theism

    Agnostic theism is the philosophical view that encompasses both theism and agnosticism. An agnostic theist believes in the existence of at least one deity, but regards the basis of this proposition as unknown or inherently unknowable...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_theism


    And this girl says

    "Who created the deity .. who crated the god? who created the allah?

    ha!.. good question., I don't care what she says .. but I want her to EAT MORE FOOD...  dammit eat..
    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim     
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #110 - May 15, 2015, 04:03 PM
    Richard Dawkins calls himself a secular christian.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #111 - May 15, 2015, 04:12 PM
    As HM has said already many Jews, Christians and even many Hundus are quite comfortable identifying as Jews, Christians, and Hindus while at the same time expressing Agnostic or Atheist views.

    Sadly Muslims refuse to accept another Muslim has the right do that. In fact not just Muslims, but ironically as we see in the case of serpentofeden, even ex-Muslims appear to have a problem with that.

    This is one of the reasons I am doing this as I think it is a far more acceptable and realistic route for many (not all) - at least in the short term.

    In a generation or so the picture will be different of course and I see religion dying out in the long term.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #112 - May 15, 2015, 05:21 PM
    I've been searching the net but can't find a label to describe myself.  At present i'm inclined to believe in a universal power that is higher than myself but not the god of the books, nor a god that interferes or controls nature, yet i'm not a deist either as i cannot rule out divine inspiration through mind, meditation, prayer etc.  I'm not an atheist as i beleive in a higher force and i'm not agnostic..    just messed up  :/
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #113 - May 15, 2015, 05:30 PM
    Theistic spiritualism?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #114 - May 15, 2015, 05:33 PM
    I'll google that one..   but doesn't the theist label imply that you beleive in a god that intervenes with nature..  anyways i will go check thnx  :  )
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #115 - May 15, 2015, 05:44 PM
    ^Qtian's lurking on the forum and asked me to suggest "transtheism and panentheism" to you.
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #116 - May 15, 2015, 05:49 PM
    Quote from: suki on May 15, 2015, 05:33 PM
    I'll google that one..   but doesn't the theist label imply that you beleive in a god that intervenes with nature..  anyways i will go check thnx  :  )

    Doesn't divine inspiration count? I just came up with spiritual theism by the way, but the term probably does exist.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #117 - May 15, 2015, 05:52 PM
    Quote from: suki on May 15, 2015, 05:21 PM
    I've been searching the net but can't find a label to describe myself.  At present i'm inclined to believe in a universal power that is higher than myself but not the god of the books, nor a god that interferes or controls nature, yet i'm not a deist either as i cannot rule out divine inspiration through mind, meditation, prayer etc.  I'm not an atheist as i beleive in a higher force and i'm not agnostic..    just messed up  :/


    Lol not messed up at all. In fact my own beliefs are the same as yours.

    As for label - choose any you like it doesn't really matter.

    One of the things I like about Agnostic Muslim is that it pisses off Islamists and Muslim-hating bigots (Funny how those two groups have so much in common.)
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #118 - May 15, 2015, 06:36 PM
    Quote from: lua on May 15, 2015, 05:44 PM
    ^Qtian's lurking on the forum and asked me to suggest "transtheism and panentheism" to you.


    Ha ha, thanks Qtian and thanks Lua, i will look them up in a minute..

    thanks Quod with your suggestion also, the closest i have got thus far is a "spiritual deist" but then again they believe in salvation of the soul and i'm not sure about the concept of soul survival, the only afterlife i'm willing to accept at present is the survival of our future generations.  They also accept nature as perfect design and i don't..

    Thanks Hassan also...  i'll get there lol
  • What is an Agnostic Muslim?
     Reply #119 - May 15, 2015, 07:33 PM
    Quote from: suki on May 15, 2015, 06:36 PM
    Thanks Hassan also...  i'll get there lol


    btw if you thought I was suggesting you use the label Agnostic Muslim - nothing was further from my mind. I mean "I personally" feel comfortable with it. I'm not the slightest bit interested in starting another cult. I just like breaking down barriers - moving goal posts and making things easier for those who feel trapped lol

    Labels are completely stupid things - and I'd rather live with out them in an ideal world - but this is by no means an ideal world.

    So my advice is choose your own label - and define it for yourself rather than try to fit other people's definition.

    If people don't like it/are confused by it - who gives a fuck  grin12
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