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Theme Changer

 Topic: The legacy of Ataturk

 (Read 1984 times)
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  • The legacy of Ataturk
     OP - April 13, 2015, 10:48 AM

    Are we giving too much legitimacy to Islam?

    I get the impression that Ataturk's modernist agenda was for Islam to wither away, until it eventually dies out when the last old people die out.

    Not exactly the position now!

    Why the acceptance of a false status quo where Islam is assumed to have a seat on the international stage?

    We need to stop burning fossil fuels yesterday and move rapidly to a renewable world.

    Several dry parts of the world are obvious places to lead on this transformation, but the people who live in these areas basically do not have the required mind sets.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • The legacy of Ataturk
     Reply #1 - April 13, 2015, 02:18 PM

    When I visited Turkey in the late 80s I was told there were still elderly people, educated in the early part of the century, who had learned to read and write using the old Ottoman Arabic script that was swept away by Ataturk's reforms. Many of them never became literate in the new alphabet. That was a small part of Ataturk's legacy - secularism imposed from above at great human cost. Listen to the interview with Ece Temelkuran that I posted on the Armenian genocide thread for an idea of Ataturk's legacy for Turkish society as a whole.

    It's worth bearing in mind what Hitler had to say: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/11/24/the-20th-century-dictator-most-idolized-by-hitler.html
    Quote
    A decade on, in 1933, Hitler would tell the Turkish daily Milliyet that Atatürk was, in his words, “the greatest man of the century,” and confess to the paper that in the “dark 1920s” “the successful struggle for liberation that [Atatürk] led in order to create Turkey had given him the confidence that the National Socialist movement would be successful as well.” Hitler called the Turkish movement his “shining star.” In 1938, on his birthday, Hitler would tell journalists and politicians that “Atatürk was the first to show that it is possible to mobilize and regenerate the resources that a country has lost. In this respect Atatürk was a teacher. Mussolini was his first and I his second student.”

    The fascism of the 1930s was also, in part, the legacy of Ataturk.



    http://www.amazon.com/Atatürk-Nazi-Imagination-Stefan-Ihrig/dp/0674368371/
    Quote
    Early in his career, Adolf Hitler took inspiration from Benito Mussolini, his senior colleague in fascism—this fact is widely known. But an equally important role model for Hitler and the Nazis has been almost entirely neglected: Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, the founder of modern Turkey. Stefan Ihrig’s compelling presentation of this untold story promises to rewrite our understanding of the roots of Nazi ideology and strategy.

    Hitler was deeply interested in Turkish affairs after 1919. He not only admired but also sought to imitate Atatürk’s radical construction of a new nation from the ashes of defeat in World War I. Hitler and the Nazis watched closely as Atatürk defied the Western powers to seize government, and they modeled the Munich Putsch to a large degree on Atatürk’s rebellion in Ankara. Hitler later remarked that in the political aftermath of the Great War, Atatürk was his master, he and Mussolini his students.

    This was no fading fascination. As the Nazis struggled through the 1920s, Atatürk remained Hitler’s “star in the darkness,” his inspiration for remaking Germany along nationalist, secular, totalitarian, and ethnically exclusive lines. Nor did it escape Hitler’s notice how ruthlessly Turkish governments had dealt with Armenian and Greek minorities, whom influential Nazis directly compared with German Jews. The New Turkey, or at least those aspects of it that the Nazis chose to see, became a model for Hitler’s plans and dreams in the years leading up to the invasion of Poland.

  • The legacy of Ataturk
     Reply #2 - April 13, 2015, 04:52 PM

    What laws other than marriage,divorce and inheritance were NOT secular in the Ottoman period by the end of 1899?
  • The legacy of Ataturk
     Reply #3 - April 13, 2015, 05:43 PM

    I don't know actually. How far would you say that late Ottoman society had already been secularised before Ataturk came along?
  • The legacy of Ataturk
     Reply #4 - April 14, 2015, 04:59 PM

    The Ottoman state stopped using hudud (the Sharia penal code) and apostasy was legalized.They also abolished slavery&slave trade,changed status of nonmuslims,established parliament etc.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanzimat

    https://books.google.com/books?id=aqyWwF5YA1gC&pg=PA422&lpg=PA422&dq=ottoman+abolished+hudud&source=bl&ots=IJCOYIIy8R&sig=8zddVSRC0_tGA7Vz080UImQMZmM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=RDgtVbmdDs_cav7OgZAN&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAg

    All of the reforms don't necessarily have to be secular, it could've been the use of a looser version of Islamic law.
  • The legacy of Ataturk
     Reply #5 - April 14, 2015, 05:11 PM

    Thanks. It's not something I'd given much thought, and maybe I've given too much credit to the rhetoric about Ataturk modernising Turkey. One thing that does occur to me is that before the genocide, ethnic cleansing and break up of empire a large part of the population (maybe about a third?) wasn't actually Muslim, and in many of the larger cities Muslims must have been in the minority.
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