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Theme Changer

 Topic: help needed

 (Read 5583 times)
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »
  • help needed
     OP - April 19, 2015, 02:19 PM
    Hi everyone,

    I'm new to the site-please give me a parrot-it may make me smile during this horrible time in my life.

    Although I've been saying for years (implicitly and explicitly) that I don't believe in God and don't practice any Islam, it seems my family have only just realised/accepted this for what it actually means and I'm on the verge of being kicked out.

    I told them I wanted to be with a non-muslim non-pakistani a few years and was told to make a choice between him or them. I chose my family. I adore them and couldn't bear to live without them. I realised the only way to have my cake and eat it was to find an atheist from the same background as me and marry him. I found one and was promptly encouraged to marry him (obv seeing him without nikaah is haram).

    It went horribly wrong. He turned out to be abusive and my family have been supporting me to divorce him. I don't think I can get married again for their sake. I can't go through this again, I'm very traumatised.

    Something has clicked and they have now realised my atheism is serious, not a phase and will not be cured by getting married. So, I've been told they don't want a kaffir under their roof.

    I love my family and don't think I can live without them. How can I leave this huge support network, comfortable life and people I adore? My mum is my best friend. If I leave, I will also have to 'come out' to my friends and risk losing them as well. I will be alone and for what?

    The repercussions are wide-spread. My siblings will have to ensure embarrassment in front of their spouses. My dad might leave my mum as she has not brought me up properly. I won't see my niece or nephew anymore. My parents will have to face the community and lose their honour etc. I don't want any of this for them. And I've tried so hard to make it work both ways. They've given me everything and I am 'ruining thier lives'.

    If I stay, I don't know how much longer I can keep sacrificing my values/choices. I'm not unhappy at home, I have a liberal amount of freedom, but the sticking point is ultimately finding someone to settle down with.  Im 26 and would love to settle down but i don't think I can marry without dating again. I don't think I can marry a liberal Muslim and then circumicse my sons. I am stuck.

    ANY advice, links, resources would be massively appreciated right now-practical, emotional and health-wise.
  • help needed
     Reply #1 - April 19, 2015, 02:56 PM
    First off, this is emotional blackmail. That in itself is abuse. You have every right to live your own life and assuming you're in the UK or a similar country have both the law and wider society on your side.

    Secondly, you do not control your parents/families decisions or lives simply by being honest. Whatever shame they bring on themselves will be on them. If they want to make a song and dance about throwing out their own child and how that will "shame" them, it's not your doing. You are not responsible for the actions of other people. You are only responsible for your own.

    Thirdly, if you fear for your safety, I strongly advice you to contact the police. They can put you in touch with social services who can arrange accommodation for you, temporary housing, or at the very least a women's or homeless shelter.

    The most important thing is your own safety.

    Please keep in touch and feel free to come here and vent if you need to. Welcome to CEMB. Your parrot. parrot
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • help needed
     Reply #2 - April 19, 2015, 04:14 PM
    Thank you for such a quick reply (and the parrot). I know its abuse, I know its wrong but things become so much harder when its people you love. Not just who you love, but my very family. I am trying to envisage my life without them and it appears terrifying, lonely and unfulfilling.

    I have spent years wishing I was able to believe-it just makes things so much easier. Ignorance is bliss. but I'm slowly coming to the realisation I don't think my beliefs will change and I think I'm on my way out. I won't be able to see my grandparents or any of the community.

    What have other people's experiences in Britain been like?

    I don't fear for my safety, its just the emotional side of things. The guilt is tremendous, even though its been years. You feel like you're vermin for just existing. I didn't choose to disbelieve! Its not my fault the religion is full of nonsense!
  • help needed
     Reply #3 - April 19, 2015, 05:43 PM
    To someone in a similar situation, especially if there was a risk of violence, I would advice them to put up an islamic front and go through the motions while trying to secure an income and a place to live. The impression I get from you is that you can't put the genie back in the bottle, though the threats that have started now after years of knowing your views may indicate that ship hasn't yet sailed. It may be a way of guilting you into becoming more "muslim".

    You're not a bad person for asking questions. That's a vile way to see an inquisitive mind and a wicked way to treat someone, especially your own family. But we can't choose our family, and the sad thing is sometimes members of our family are just bad for us.

    If you wish to have a relationship with them, tell them. Let them know your door is open. It's their choice whether or not they accept. The hardest thing will be how that will make you feel though. The feelings of worthlessness and guilt, the anger at yourself and them. Sadly it's something many ex-muslims go through. It would be nice if your situation was rare, but it's not.

    The thing to keep in mind is that you're not the selfish one. They are the ones threatening you. They are the ones talking about disownment, not the other way around.

    As I don't know the full story forgive me if this has been done, but have you tried sitting down with them and having a heart to heart? Often when someone doesn't hold the same beliefs as their loved ones it can be perceived as an attack on them. Instead of realising you just don't believe a religion it's taken as a rejection of the people themselves. Do they know that your lack of belief in islam isn't a message to them? That it isn't, basically, a giant "Fuck you!"?

    If you can, try to make them understand that not believing in islam doesn't mean you don't believe in them, that it makes no difference in your love and devotion. They are still your family and you are still their daughter/sister. That will never change. far away hug
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • help needed
     Reply #4 - April 19, 2015, 06:04 PM
    Welcome Jelytots, here's my parrot   parrot

    and here's a hug  far away hug

    I don't really have any advice, your situation sounds so heart breaking, with the love you have for your family, i experienced this the opposite way to you, i absolutely loved my english family, we were very close and i tore them apart when i converted and left them to live far away with a man i barely knew.   I don't know what you can do.. ?  Perhaps if you are not feeling threatend you could live close by, rather than move away and lose touch with you mum.  Maybe you could all come to an agreement that they accept or rather turn a blind eye to your western lifestyle so long as it is not under their roof.. 

    I wish you well x
  • help needed
     Reply #5 - April 19, 2015, 06:58 PM
    I would also suggest looking into a therapist. As you're in the UK a secular one will be easy to find.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • help needed
     Reply #6 - April 19, 2015, 07:10 PM
    Hi jellytot, welcome to the forum, and have a rabbit and parrot!  bunny parrot

    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on April 19, 2015, 02:56 PM
    First off, this is emotional blackmail. That in itself is abuse. You have every right to live your own life and assuming you're in the UK or a similar country have both the law and wider society on your side.

    Secondly, you do not control your parents/families decisions or lives simply by being honest. Whatever shame they bring on themselves will be on them. If they want to make a song and dance about throwing out their own child and how that will "shame" them, it's not your doing. You are not responsible for the actions of other people. You are only responsible for your own.

    Thirdly, if you fear for your safety, I strongly advice you to contact the police. They can put you in touch with social services who can arrange accommodation for you, temporary housing, or at the very least a women's or homeless shelter.

    The most important thing is your own safety.

    Please keep in touch and feel free to come here and vent if you need to. Welcome to CEMB. Your parrot. parrot


    AWTA

    If you want to live a life not controlled by your parents and their religion, you will need to be brave. Work to establish both your income and support group independent of them. Its hard, but not impossible and there will be benefits of it. If this is something you want then you will have to commit to and work for it. Best of luck, and do keep coming here to express your concerns, progress, or just vent. Also agree about seeing a therapist. This is definitely something you will need all support and resources to try and do.  far away hug
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • help needed
     Reply #7 - April 19, 2015, 09:30 PM
    Wow, I feel so welcome, thank you all xxxx
  • help needed
     Reply #8 - April 19, 2015, 10:09 PM
    Welcome Jellytots  bunny parrot

    Do you have your own income? I am just wondering if you are in a position to live on your own if you had to. That doesn't mean not having contact with your family, just not living under their roof.  It sounds like they have been giving you the full emotional blackmail works!
  • help needed
     Reply #9 - April 19, 2015, 11:05 PM
    I do have my own income, I could move out if I wanted to. I just don't have the balls. I'm struggling to let go even though its been years of trying to live how I want and simultaneously keep my parents happy (not successful)

    Spend hours in a theological debate with my parents. The conclusion, of course, is that I am just 'wrong' and have interpreted the Qur'an incorrectly etc. The hypocracy is mad! Its OK not to pray, fast and it's OK to be a liberal Muslim but I must believe in Allah and the prophet in my heart. And I must bring up my children the same ie. Preach the theory to them but not model any of the practicalities. How does that work!?!? I might as well not believe in it (if your not practising it, you don't truly believe in it anyway IMO). Very very strange.

    Oh also, me being non Muslim automatically means = I want to sleep around, jump from man to man and be a drunkard.
  • help needed
     Reply #10 - April 19, 2015, 11:45 PM
    Talking of emotional blackmail, my dad is saying if I continue with this insolence, he will divorce my mum because its her fault she has not brought me up properly
  • help needed
     Reply #11 - April 20, 2015, 03:19 AM
    That's terrible...you really should get out of such a toxic atmosphere. It might take time to mentally prepare yourself, but you really should put some distance between you and them. I'm sorry you have to go through this.  far away hug
  • help needed
     Reply #12 - April 20, 2015, 03:25 AM
    This is not how you want your children raised. Never mind the religious aspect, which is a big enough deal, but think about what it means for your own children not to be accepted by their family. Your family is their family. Would your children be comfortable having to toe the line for their extended family's benefit? So you decide to bow to their wishes and sacrifice your own happiness so that they can pretend Islam is Divine, what then? What do you do when your children want to go their own way? Do you force them to sacrifice? Your freedom frees your children, now, before they are even born.
    You are the black sheep, and it is not your own fault at all. Your father has his scapegoat, now, and it is not fair in any way to anyone for him to blame his actions or future actions on you. My husband blamed my kid's behaviour on me, and I really understand this. It is a sick way to raise a family.
    I am so glad you have your own finances in hand. I hope you can get out soon, and I also encourage you to contact advocates and women's groups, because finding you are not alone is the most wonderful feeling out there. You can create family. It really does happen.
    I also encourage you to treat your exit like an escape, and be very careful about contact with male relatives. Just to be on the safe side. You will have a better feel for it at the time, but leaving is the most dangerous moment in the process for a woman.
    There are so many here who are or who have been in your situation, they will have more pertinent things to say, I am sure.  parrot Welcome!
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • help needed
     Reply #13 - April 20, 2015, 06:48 AM
    Thanks Three.

    You've hit the nail on the head about my hypothetical future children. Its a real sticking point for me. I think I could get by marrying a liberal Muslim but when we have children, I would not want them circumcised, I would not teach them Islam, I wouldn't be shaving its head within 7 days etc. I just can't do it. Its these points that made my parents flip because they realised I'm serious about this and really don't believe in it.

    I got about 2 hours sleep and had nightmares. They've threatened to kick me out before but its never felt this real before, it feels so scary the prospect of losing everything you know in one swoop and there's no going back. My sister is supportive and is telling me to leave as it affects mine and my parents health, trying to do this compromise stuff. I either stay and live by their rules or leave and do what I want.

    I wish I had a crystal ball to see what the other side looks like if I left. Can I ever truly be happy not being with them? I will never be a part of weddings, funerals, family events etc. Is it worth me being able to eat pork and wear a short skirt if I cant have dinner with them, spend time with them, help them when they are sick. Whats the point in me having children that will never know their grandparents or aunts and uncles.... :(
  • help needed
     Reply #14 - April 20, 2015, 06:56 AM
    Quote from: jellytots on April 19, 2015, 11:45 PM
    Talking of emotional blackmail, my dad is saying if I continue with this insolence, he will divorce my mum because its her fault she has not brought me up properly

    How come it's someone else's fault? Did he not have a hand in raising you? He's only your fucking father. Roll Eyes
    Quote from: asbie on April 19, 2015, 07:10 PM
    AWTA

     Huh?
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • help needed
     Reply #15 - April 20, 2015, 07:06 AM
    ^The wife tends to get the blame for her childrens failings, it is her Islamic duty to do most of the religious training with the kids as the mother usually spends more time with the kids than the father who is out at work..  which i think is an ridiculous burden to place on the mother.
  • help needed
     Reply #16 - April 20, 2015, 07:35 AM
    Yeah suki is right. My dad has spent all his life working very hard to provide a lovely lifestyle for us all but he's had no part in our upbringing.

    Feeling so low this morning, I wish I was somebody different, i wish i didnt have these opnions. I hate what this is doing to my family. Plenty of born Muslims just accept it and get on with it  Cry Cry Cry Cry
  • help needed
     Reply #17 - April 20, 2015, 08:47 AM
    Welcome to the forum, jellytots. Hope you like it here.

    Quote from: jellytots on April 19, 2015, 11:45 PM
    Talking of emotional blackmail, my dad is saying if I continue with this insolence, he will divorce my mum because its her fault she has not brought me up properly


    I have a feeling he won't go through with it. He's threatening you with whatever he thinks will work. I know he's your father and you love him, but what kind of a moron would divorce his wife and break his family apart because of some retarded notion that she failed as a mother, 20+ years after their child was born? If your father is that kind of a man, then you shouldn't really care what he does. And your mother would be way better off without him.

    It's totally a bluff. Be strong  far away hug
    He's no friend to the friendless
    And he's the mother of grief
    There's only sorrow for tomorrow
    Surely life is too brief
  • help needed
     Reply #18 - April 20, 2015, 09:22 AM
    My sister is saying the same. That I can't live my life based on something he may not even go through with.

     Perhaps I'm using it as an excuse because I'm not ready to leave or let go. Leaving feels like going into the abyss-something completely alien and new.

    My sister said its as simple as deciding how much it means to me - either it's worth leaving for or its not. I think I've started the mental/emotional process of preparing to leave. I'm sure it won't be overnight. I suspect the next stage will be to involve extended family like my grandparents to make me see sense etc.

    Good job it's lovely weather. Will go for a long walk in the park later, need to relieve some of this negative energy.
  • help needed
     Reply #19 - April 20, 2015, 09:34 AM
    ^this has just happened to my sister, her eldest son has recently announced his apostacy to his very devout father and he has now left my sis considering divorce and basically lives with his friend down the street or spends time abroad... He blames her for all the Islamic failings in the family because she refuses to back him on this, she's a shaytan apparently wacko but he's faultless ofcourse.

    But i think Naerys is right, my sis husband has no extended family in this country to keep him in his place so it was easy for him to behave like a spoilt brat, i dont think your father would go through with it either, he has too many people to answer to.

    X
  • help needed
     Reply #20 - April 20, 2015, 11:22 AM
    Quote from: jellytots on April 20, 2015, 06:48 AM
    Thanks Three.

    You've hit the nail on the head about my hypothetical future children. Its a real sticking point for me. I think I could get by marrying a liberal Muslim but when we have children, I would not want them circumcised, I would not teach them Islam, I wouldn't be shaving its head within 7 days etc. I just can't do it. Its these points that made my parents flip because they realised I'm serious about this and really don't believe in it.

    I got about 2 hours sleep and had nightmares. They've threatened to kick me out before but its never felt this real before, it feels so scary the prospect of losing everything you know in one swoop and there's no going back. My sister is supportive and is telling me to leave as it affects mine and my parents health, trying to do this compromise stuff. I either stay and live by their rules or leave and do what I want.

    I wish I had a crystal ball to see what the other side looks like if I left. Can I ever truly be happy not being with them? I will never be a part of weddings, funerals, family events etc. Is it worth me being able to eat pork and wear a short skirt if I cant have dinner with them, spend time with them, help them when they are sick. Whats the point in me having children that will never know their grandparents or aunts and uncles.... :(


    Some people on this forum have been able to keep family ties, and some have not. But your health will suffer greatly if you do not take proper care of yourself. Abuse gets deep inside the mind and eventually it affects one bodily.
    The point of having children is personal. It has little to do with grandparents or aunts and uncles, and nothing to do with grandparents or aunts and uncles that are not able to accept them. I am raising children without the pressure and criticism of their extended family. It's a huge relief.
    Your actions do not cause your relatives to refuse your help or your presence. Their decision to shun you has to do with them, NOT WITH YOU. You have to let go of that. This is more about freedom of mind and will and future than it is about freedom to eat or dress how you want, right? Don't reduce a moral stance to trivial things like food or clothing, you deny yourself the high ground. Do not internalize that Morals=Religion garbage.
    I have lost family and started over, more than once. If I can do it, so can you.
    I know this is hard to accept, but conditional love is not really love. Not the kind a family should have. It is not worth salvaging that sort of damaging love. I suppose it is the sort of thing one has to realize for themselves, so think long and hard on it before you take my advice to heart.
    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • help needed
     Reply #21 - April 20, 2015, 04:44 PM
    Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on April 20, 2015, 06:56 AM
    Huh?


    AWTA means Agree With The Above
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • help needed
     Reply #22 - April 20, 2015, 05:22 PM
    Thanks guys, making some really good points that are helping a lot. Being at work today felt so good-reminded me I have a purpose and a place where I am valued and respected and don't have to think about all this for a while.

    It is starting to sink in now, its been brewing for long enough. My workplace have cheap hostels so that's a good backup plan. I'm OK financially. I spoke to my three friends-all Muslims who have been very supportive and reminded me its just what Pakistani parents are like. The gave me lots of examples (themselves included) when young women are blackmailed, oppressed, forced etc into various things whether its marriage, a career, having a child etc. You either learn to live with it or you leave. You cant have both, as I so desperately have been wanting for years. Won't happen.

    And three, you're right, it is about the fact I have a basic human right to live the way I want to, not material actions or what I wear.

    Sigh. Time for a nap and then ice cream, I think.

  • help needed
     Reply #23 - April 20, 2015, 05:30 PM
    Quote from: jellytots on April 20, 2015, 05:22 PM

    Sigh. Time for a nap and then ice cream, I think.




    Wow, you're already living the dream.  Tongue

    In all seriousness glad you're feeling better about things. Hopefully things go smoothly for you in this transition!  Afro
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • help needed
     Reply #24 - April 20, 2015, 05:54 PM
    Quote from: jellytots on April 19, 2015, 11:05 PM
    = I want to sleep around, jump from man to man and be a drunkard.

    Don't knock it.
  • help needed
     Reply #25 - April 20, 2015, 05:59 PM
    ^I've only managed the latter thus far..
  • help needed
     Reply #26 - April 20, 2015, 07:05 PM
    Quote from: asbie on April 20, 2015, 05:30 PM
    Wow, you're already living the dream.  Tongue

    In all seriousness glad you're feeling better about things. Hopefully things go smoothly for you in this transition!  Afro


    Oh it gets better. I'm in bed eating MacDonald's and watching Bollywood. Highest level of indulgence lol.
  • help needed
     Reply #27 - April 20, 2015, 07:06 PM
    Quote from: David on April 20, 2015, 05:54 PM
    Don't knock it.


    Hahaha that made me laugh.
  • help needed
     Reply #28 - April 20, 2015, 07:35 PM
    To be unfashionably earnest for a moment, you seem funny and nice. I've a feeling you'll be fine if you stick to your guns.
  • help needed
     Reply #29 - April 20, 2015, 07:49 PM
    Lol you are correct. I am both funny and nice.

    I'm starting to feel I'll be fine as well. Just had a chat with my brother who was very nice and lovely with me.
  • 12 Next page « Previous thread | Next thread »