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 Topic: Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding

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  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #90 - May 15, 2015, 10:09 PM
    Quote from: lua on May 15, 2015, 10:01 PM
    Cheesy Oh my god. And you're funny, too!

    Yeah, I got the feeling that was all understood and the only reason I said anything was because of the way I interpreted the original post. But really, we're lucky to have you all.


    You should pick up one of his books, the (relatively dry lol) humor does not end on this board haha.
    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #91 - May 15, 2015, 10:12 PM
    Quote from: Zimriel on May 15, 2015, 09:45 PM
    I think my first post here touched on that - I saw a couple of posters tackling these issues, so I dropped in, but nervously.

    That's why we have these more "scholarly" fora: the Z's can drone on about whatever it is we drone on about, and if the rest of the forum are interested in catching some Z's then they can come here.  grin12

    edit: Seriously, though; I'm grateful to be allowed this use of the forum's soapbox. Also flattered by the forum community's regard for me (I can probably speak for zeca and Zaotar on that). To the extent my posts are helpful and informative, I'm glad of it.


    I really appreciate you and all the Z's not forgetting CJ. I have learnt so much from you all.  Afro
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #92 - May 15, 2015, 10:20 PM
    شكرا جزيلا يا شيخ حسن!س

    For my part I know that it's been incredibly helpful to have someone with your native ear for Arabic and exhaustive knowledge of the Quranic exegetical tradition taking part in the discussions here. Although I have not commented to much on them, your threads about agnosticism and Islam have also been deeply moving and informative. Just another reason I keep coming back to CEMB  Afro
    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #93 - May 15, 2015, 10:25 PM
    @CJ, aha, I get you, and don't apologize! My mistake. Like I said, I knew it might not have been your intention and I'm glad I was wrong about that. Thank you for explaining. And what Hassan said.  yes
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #94 - May 15, 2015, 10:38 PM
    Quote from: countjulian on May 15, 2015, 10:20 PM
    شكرا جزيلا يا شيخ حسن!س

    For my part I know that it's been incredibly helpful to have someone with your native ear for Arabic and exhaustive knowledge of the Quranic exegetical tradition taking part in the discussions here. Although I have not commented to much on them, your threads about agnosticism and Islam have also been deeply moving and informative. Just another reason I keep coming back to CEMB  Afro


    Thanks cj - the feelings mutual habibi Smiley
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #95 - May 16, 2015, 08:19 AM
    countjulian

    so how we do with Fatima, and Khadija , Aisha ? do you consider them a later fabrication ?
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #96 - May 16, 2015, 08:31 AM
    Quote from: countjulian on May 15, 2015, 10:09 PM
    To give a good example, only I, Zeca, Hassan, and Zimriel seem to take much of an active part in Zoatar's threads on his papers, and when others do take part it seems to me like the two sides are often talking past each other. People without much of a knowledge of what critical scholars have been up to have one set of assumptions, more critically-minded folks have another, so they're not talking the same language, so to speak.

    This is the reason I don't comment much on the threads as I'm aware I fall into the former group. I can't speak for others but personally I find these threads very interesting. While I don't comment much (again, I'm aware of my lack of knowledge in the matter) I do find them highly interesting and beneficial.
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #97 - May 16, 2015, 10:09 AM
    Quote from: Skywalker on May 15, 2015, 08:36 PM
    There's another mosque with the same name, Masjid al-Qiblatayn, that is located in Somalia.It also has two qiblahs, facing different directions.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masjid_al-Qiblatayn_%28Somalia%29As you can see, it assumes the traditional view of hijra.It wouldn't be a suprise if it was actually dated from the 7th century.

    That makes sense. The first Muslims migrated from Mecca to Abyssinia, before the hijra. I assume the mosque is located in what used to be Abyssinia.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #98 - May 16, 2015, 11:08 AM
    ^That area of northern somalia was always called puntland.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #99 - May 16, 2015, 11:25 AM
    The mosque is located in Zeila, in the northwest. Puntland is in the northeast.

    Muslims sought refuge in the Kingdom of Aksum, which at some point in history included Zeila. Not sure about exact dates, though.
  • Re: Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #100 - May 16, 2015, 01:03 PM
    Quote from: Abood on May 16, 2015, 10:09 AM
    That makes sense. The first Muslims migrated from Mecca to Abyssinia, before the hijra. I assume the mosque is located in what used to be Abyssinia.

    That's if the traditional story is true or partly true.Some parts of the traditional story may have captured what happened(in some way), without making the whole story true.The mosque could be dated decades after the so called change in qibla according to the traditional view.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #101 - May 16, 2015, 01:41 PM
    Quote from: Zaotar on May 15, 2015, 06:37 PM
    They admit that the qibla of the early mosques did not point towards Mecca.  Their explanation for this strikes me as painfully contrived.

    They then give a very complicated argument for why this would somehow relate to the Kaba.  But it doesn't work, because you can't explain why mosques to the East would have their qibla pointing West, while those in the West would have their qibla facing East.  The qibla was clearly geographical, directed at a specific point on earth, not astronomical. And saying that all of these were mistakes of some sort requires imputing a rather incredible degree of geographical incompetence to early Muslims across the globe.

    That would be the same mistake in qibla in the same direction from several regions.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #102 - May 16, 2015, 03:22 PM
    Quote from: Abood on May 16, 2015, 11:25 AM
    The mosque is located in Zeila, in the northwest. Puntland is in the northeast.

    Muslims sought refuge in the Kingdom of Aksum, which at some point in history included Zeila. Not sure about exact dates, though.


     yes, i was mixing puntland with the ancient land of Punt, that area was believed to have covered north somalia, small part of eastern ethiopia, eritrea, djbouti and parts of sudan, zelia would have been in that region, but i guess i got the wrong date there, i was going too far back in time. 
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #103 - May 16, 2015, 05:27 PM
    Quote from: hatoush on May 16, 2015, 08:19 AM
    countjulian

    so how we do with Fatima, and Khadija , Aisha ? do you consider them a later fabrication ?


    To be blunt, yes. Fatima seems cooked up to provide an heir of legitimacy to claims of linkage of several Arab dynasties to ahl-al-bait, Aisha's father Abu Bakr does not appear in the earliest lists of Arab rulers and seems to be a literary invention to mirror Joshua in the Bible (not to mention that her tender age of 9 at the time Muhammad was in his 50's makes her an oh-so-convenient purveyor of authentic ahaadiith to people living at the end of the 600's), and Khadija lacks any early attestation. Of all of them Khadija seems the most likely. The Secrets of Rabbi Shim'on, however, mentions that the Arab prophet would (and this is the prophetic future tense here, id est it's "predicting" something the author knew had happened) marry a Jewish woman, and from the context it seems to me that this was Muhammad's only wife. I suppose it's possible that Khadija was his wife before though;she is linked in the tradition to Muhammad's merchant career, which is one of the only elements of his traditional biography we find mentioned in the contemporary (non-Muslim) sources. Also even today a woman of her age marrying a man of Muhammad's age is seen as strange in patriarchal culture, so the criterion of embarrassment also leans in Khadija's favor. I would give her a definite "maybe."
    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #104 - May 16, 2015, 05:52 PM
    I found Khadiga mentioned in Theophanes's Byzantine chronicle for AM 6122 (Turtledove translation). There's been lots of chatter lately that Theophanes relied here on Trajan the Patrician, who had possibly got his data about Islam during the reign of al-Walid I before Sulayman's invasion. Warren Treadgold seems to be the main driver of this notion.

    I did my own translation of a derivative source, Simeon the Logothete, here:
    https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4-3UDjnJ4ybS2ZXa3J5R2I5SDg/

    (Warning - I'm tempted to say, trigger warning - the discussion after the good part is an unfinished and chaotic mess. But the translation itself is as accurate as I could make it.)

    *If* the Muhammad biography in Theophanes / Simeon is Trajan's, and *if* Trajan collected this late in the authorial process: *then* this is an attestation of Khadiga from the early/middle Marwani era. But, I admit, to paraphrase Jayne Cobb, there's a strong smell of "if" coming off that plan.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #105 - May 16, 2015, 05:53 PM
    ^I concur. Like I said, a definite 'maybe' on her^
    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #106 - May 16, 2015, 06:01 PM
    Interesting to note that despite the then-forming Islamic tradition, the Logothenete Chronik associates Mo only with Yathrib and not with Mecca. This IMO is a point in favor of its reliability for me.
    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #107 - May 16, 2015, 06:10 PM
    I find Abu Bakr mentioned in the Syriac 705 CE list of caliphs (Hoyland, Seeing Islam), 394). So he was already part of Islam's self-identified history under al-Walid I.

    After that, Abu Bakr crops up consistently in the Syriac chronicle tradition: the 724, the Zuqnin, the 819(>846), and almost certainly Theophilus (Agapius / 1234 / Michael Syrus). He's also in Theophanes (and Simeon) but there it's a crapshoot as to whether he got it from Theophilus, or else Trajan.

    Two noblewomen from the olden days were named as Abu Bakr's daughters: Asma, mother of the Zubayrid clan, and Aisha who was called mother of all the Believers. So Abu Bakr is associated with the Meccan aristocracy, and recognised as such by the caliphate under al-Walid. (To hazard an opinion.)
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #108 - May 16, 2015, 06:17 PM
    Quote from: countjulian on May 16, 2015, 06:01 PM
    Interesting to note that despite the then-forming Islamic tradition, the Logothenete Chronik associates Mo only with Yathrib and not with Mecca. This IMO is a point in favor of its reliability for me.

    What intrigued me is that many transmissions of Simeon forget to blame Da Jooooz for the mess. The story as a whole implicates the Arian (anti-trinitarian) heretics. By contrast Pseudo-Sebeos all but calls Muhammad a Jewish plot. And there was gross anti-Judaism throughout the Byzantine and Syrian literature in those first decades. Jews appear in Theophanes' version too, but they are tacked on to an anti-Arian structure.

    Now, Simeon's blaming rival Christians for the plot rather than blaming Jews isn't any nicer, and won't get us any closer to the facts. But it is at least a hint of an independent tradition.

    Personally, I blame the Lutherans. Roll Eyes
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #109 - May 16, 2015, 06:50 PM
    To be fair, the Secrets of Rabbi Simeon and the Sahiifat Medina both paint a picture of Jews and Mu'minuun working together to overthrow the Romans in Palestine. The unanimity of the early sources on this issue creates the impression, at least to me, that there is more to the Jewish-Muhammadan alliance than mere Byzantine anti-semetic paranoia (as powerful of a force as that was in the Byzantine Empire).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secrets_of_Rabbi_Simon_ben_Yohai

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Medina
    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #110 - May 16, 2015, 07:00 PM
    Quote from: Zimriel on May 16, 2015, 06:10 PM
    I find Abu Bakr mentioned in the Syriac 705 CE list of caliphs (Hoyland, Seeing Islam), 394). So he was already part of Islam's self-identified history under al-Walid I.

    After that, Abu Bakr crops up consistently in the Syriac chronicle tradition: the 724, the Zuqnin, the 819(>846), and almost certainly Theophilus (Agapius / 1234 / Michael Syrus). He's also in Theophanes (and Simeon) but there it's a crapshoot as to whether he got it from Theophilus, or else Trajan.



    705 is still pretty late for Abu Bakr IMO. At that point Muhammad's biography was already being re-written to conform to the Meccan ideology + the biography of Moses. His reign during the ridda wars, which lack all outside attestation, and the shortness of his reign before the beginning of the more historical reign of 'Umar are again points against his likely existence to me. And the appellation "Umm al-Mu'minuun" seems to rather strengthen Aisha's legendary character in my eyes.
    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #111 - May 16, 2015, 08:48 PM
    Would a chart of the early key characters be of value showing classic view, possible other views, key questions?
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #112 - May 16, 2015, 08:51 PM
    I think a chart would be an excellent idea Moi. I would be interested to see who else thinks so.
    إطلب العلم ولو في الصين

    Es sitzt keine Krone so fest und so hoch,
    Der mutige Springer erreicht sie doch.

    I don't give a fuck about your war, or your President.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #113 - May 17, 2015, 04:41 AM
    countjulian but a chart according to you, will be empty !!!
    i don't know, i feel that in order to justify your main hypothesis ( later addition of Mecca narrative) you are willing to downplay any evidence that may counter your claim ? even from non Muslim sources !!!! and non I don't have a hidden apologetic agenda Smiley, actually i think some figures from our traditions played an important role in Islam foundations and they are totally neglected, like Muslim Bin habib and waraqa bin nawfal.

    what about Sana'a manuscript, i thought it has proved an early canonization of the Quran !!!!
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #114 - May 17, 2015, 10:33 AM
    Maybe the origins of the hajj or pilgrimage can be found somewhere else, especially if there were more than one Ka'ba.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #115 - May 17, 2015, 01:18 PM
    But actually putting down the various perspectives in a spreadsheet is very useful in any case!  The column repeating no evidence all the way down might be the right one!  Each box should link to summary arguments.
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #116 - May 17, 2015, 01:21 PM
    Quote from: Skywalker on May 17, 2015, 10:33 AM
    Maybe the origins of the hajj or pilgrimage can be found somewhere else, especially if there were more than one Ka'ba.


    Quote
    The Guide-book: A Pictorial Pilgrimage to Mecca and Medina.

    by Richard F. Burton

    Stage I: The Pilgrims Land at Jeddah.

    We are about to describe one of the most important scenes in the Mohammedan's life. A pilgrimage to Mecca, followed by a visitation to Medina, are, under certain limitations, obligatory upon all true believers, and many who have led evil lives date their reformation from the first sight of the holy shrines.

    There is little doubt that this pilgrimage, like all others, began with a mixture of commerce and religion: the latter element now predominates. In former years, when travelling was more difficult, the hadgee (Haji), or pilgrim, wore, after his return home, a green turban. The custom is now obsolete in the more civilized lands. Maids, wives, and widows go through the ceremonial enactments, and "O pilgrimess!" is the civil address to women of the lower orders in Egypt and other Moslem lands.


      From a brilliant link here!
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #117 - May 17, 2015, 01:23 PM
    Actually, I think CEMB should formally propose that hadgees wear green turbans on their return - male and female.

    And the correct terms be used!!!!

    Steampunkislam!
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #118 - May 17, 2015, 06:01 PM
    moi
    If Mecca was an international center for commerce, different people would have different religions.Maybe if it was a local center of arab people with the same religion, hajj could've been performed while doing business on the side.
  • Findings of Critical Scholarship vis-a-vis the Traditional Islamic Understanding
     Reply #119 - May 17, 2015, 06:09 PM
    Maybe they did all come from different religions and had been for thousands of years - the Islamic usp was a proto ecumenism that got anyone to dress up in the same robes and go through the same rituals.  From a commercial perspective that is definitely the way to go!  

    Only later did it get formalised.  I understand Orthodox xianity at the time had a universal brotherhood all will be saved philosophy.  Maybe Islam picked up on the sin heresy from Augustine?
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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